Hey guys, my friend refered me to this site for advice on my motor build. I have an 87 rs 2.8 l v6. I bought the car for 1000 in awesome physical condition it was a one owner, an old lady, and she took care of it, or so I thought, the motor seems to have problems these days and I'm sure I've spent more keeping it running than I spent buying it, including replacing the trany. Its been sitting for over six months and its depressing to see it in this condition, its a constant source of stress for me and I miss driving it even the v6 is fun. it'll start but drivablity is bad, idk what's wrong with it, or where to start but I know I wanna get a new motor in asap. I bought a 350 block a few months ago to get ready to get my car back in action, the reason I'm here is for advice about the build. I can tell you now I want as much power as I can get. A reason is in my town everyone owns a supped up mustang , and I'm tired of their reign. I just don't know which way to go fuel inj, or carbed. I like the modernness of fi, but the simplicity of carb its also gotta be emissions legal. Also budget is a huge factor, due to my baby girl coming soon. We all know babies aren't cheap haha. So basically I'm here for advice on fi or carb, power, and parts. Thanks too I really appreciate it

 

Welcome aboard thirdgen.org.

For an '87, the only emissions-legal carb is the factory computer controlled type. For FI, you can use any '87-later system that was offered in passenger cars. TPI would probably be the better choice over TBI for a performance 350.

The computer controlled carb is capable of some Stang killing power, though. So, don't write it off from the beginning.

The primary issue with emissions is keeping the cam compatible with the computer you will have to use. There are plenty of good grinds out there, it's a matter of having your goals and other parts established and keeping them compatible.

The bad news about your rebuilt transmission is you won't be able to use it with a V8. Sorry. You could, however, use it with a 3.4 V6, but it's Stang killingness would be more in doubt.

Most anything you choose will strain the budget. An LS1 is a sure thing, but what you've spent so far would pale in comparison when you're done with that.

 

How about a 383 tpi? Could the tpi system be opened up enough to support a 383? And could the stock 350 tpi emissions work for it? How much power would it get aprox? I've always been a fan of the 383 and if it'd be possible id do it.

 

How much power and what's your budjet? I've put together some fast low dollar sleepers at my shop and is currently working on two thirdgens now. Both are big time sleepers and both are killing bolt on 5.0s, and 4.6s.

 

I'm hoping low 400s, my budget is as it comes, couple hundred here few hundred there, id spend anything I need too, but the higher the price tag the longer it'll take and I just gotta get this done you know? Also the fact about it needing to be emissions legal is also daunting, sometimes it seems hopeless haha but I'm not gonna give up

 

A TPI 383 is a definite reality. Search the tech boards in this forum for the Chevy High Performance(may have been Car Craft) article on the subject. They made 525ft lbs and 400+hp with TPI on a 383. Of course the heads were pricey aftermarket peices along with a Comp cam. This would destroy even a fairly built Stang. Sorry you'll have to toss your new tranny. Maybe you can trade it in on a V8 700R4. If you go with the 525ft lb 383 youll need a well built 700R4. Otherwise you'll just blow through transmissions like I did with my extreme 355 TPI.

 

Ill look it up, thanks.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Tuned...item563fe24793

This doesn't look bad. How can you tell if its maf or speed dnsity? I do see a small dent on the driver side tube. But for the price?

I decided I'm gonna do a 383 tpi build. I'm just starting to look for the tpi that'll top it. I've read about power flatlining and stuff but since its gonna be my daily driver, almost daily. I think ill only really need a motor that will jump off the line vicious. I have a block from 79 I think, will it be fit up with a 90s tpi system. And I plan on aftermarket heads but idk which yet. And a mean cam, but its gotta pass emissions, in az.

On another note I've been tearing down my interior, I'm going all black, ill post pics of my progress. Not a hint of rust anywhere, its beautiful. I even found an 87 penny under all the carpet haha

Anyway, thanks so far guys I look forward to more input!

 

Any more input??

 

Well with me I like to keep it simple here's something to think about, a mild build that I did two years ago that's dyno, street and track proven;
355 rebuilt stock bottom end with arp bolts and hyper pistons
9.75 to 1 cr
Hand fully ported heads, Old Sportsman IIs (Ported Vortecs will do just fine)
Cam @ .050 is CC 212/218 .487/.495 (this cam is installed 6 degrees retard)
1.6 roller rockers
Beehive springs set at 140lb on the seat (it is very important to have good seat Pres)
Edelbrocks mildly ported truck multiport manifold and fuel rails (match to 52mm)
Mildly ported 52mm tbi (no injectors or pod we used the Holley one)
1" open spacer
35lb per hour injectors
Underdrive crank pulley with overdrive alt pulley
1-5/8 shorty headers
Custom dual exhaust
3000 stall street fighter
3.42 gear in a beefed up ten bolt (28 spline axles, trutrac, welded,tubes)
Beefed up 700r4 with tran-go kit and billet servo (largest cooler you can find)
Ebl
3630 lb race weight
Still has AC and smog pump that works.
Pass Emsns with cats (after we took them off and just got the car labeled off road/show)
pulls 18-20' of vac
On motor and 255/50-16 BFG drag radials pulls low 1.7s high 1.6s on the 60 foot and low 12s high 11s on motor.
Last Dyno 374 hp with converter locked.
At 4400 rpm car was at 300 whp and peaked from 5800 to 6100 but droped bad after 6300 rpm ( need more spring, valve float)
This is a proven combo that everyone who looks at the car says it won't do what it already does, They say cam is too small (last Dyno guy).
Easy to tune fun to drive and has more in it with weight reductions or better cam. I built this car that started out as a 305 TBI so you can PM me if you like the combo, lots more details to know to get it right.

 

Were you the winning bidder?
'91 is speed density. I don't see any of the harness, computer, or sensors. If they aren't included, it wasn't a very good buy.

For any 383 TPI, I wouldn't keep much, if any, of the factory TPI hardware. The intake base is restrictive, you absolutely need better runners, the injectors will be too small. The plenum can be ported, and the fuel rails, harness, sensors, computer, etc., can be reused. But, a Holley/Weiand Steath ram takes care of all of the base/runner/plenum issues (still need injectors/tune). Emissions, however, may still be an issue.

If you keep the cam really mild, you can make a good-running 383 with stock TPI. But, it's a lot harder to do. And, technically, no 383 in the free world is technically emissions-legal.

 

You didn't mention "emissions proven", which I'm sure it isn't, and which is important to the OP.

 

Yes I did and yes it did pass with room to spare. That combo will crush a tpi set-up from idle to 6000+ rpm . It has beat head/cam LS1s, Modded LS2s, heads/cam 5.0s get spots and still are crushed. Not saying it's the best set up or fastest but for the money and parts that were used (no AFR heads or HSR efi system) it does very well and with a 150 shot rips 10s all day with the same little BFG DRs. I've seen at lot guys who started off with a TPI system and mod it to hell just to take them off for something better and cheaper that makes more power (me being one of thos guys). If it's going to be a street car then a TPI is fine but if you want to hold your own, then you better think about it.

 

Well, a 383 emissions legal or not, as long as it passes.

 

Sorry, I read too fast.

Okay, redirect: Did you get it to pass a rigorous visual inspection? Sniffer can be fooled easily enough - having emissions-certified aftermarket parts is another matter entirely. For instance, the Edelbrock truck manifold is not certified for passenger cars. Nice times for the combo, though, for sure.

Technically, no 383 is emissions-legal. Whether you can get one to pass your local emissions inspection/test is a different question.

 

I'm in az, I don't know what kind of test they'll do on my car. My car will just need to pass emissions to get my registration, so I can drive it.

 

That's ok, here in Illinois they don't look under the hoods but what we did was put the stock air cleaner back on. As for everything else it was all there, EGR, smog pump, air injection, char canister, cat, and I tune it to run hotter than normal (love that ebl). The reason we went with the truck multi was to get rid of the fueling issue to feed that motor (35s are hitting 89% dc with 52psi of fuel). With a better cam it will make more hp but will be harder to pass the sniff test.
It only took the test once, after that we just got it exempt but it still has everything on it but the cat.

 

Say I did go with a holley stealth ram, can it be made emissions passable? Also my camaro was made a v6 so will anything I change it too automatically make it fail?

 

I'm not sure about that. You may want to check your states rules before you decide want system you want to go with.

 

I found out I have to fill out a form telling them about the swap, they'll charge some fees and ask a lot of questions, then they'll make me a new title and do something with the vin changing my car from v6 to v8 on paper officially, then I can get it emissions tested to pass, hopefully, and get my registration.

 

That shouldn't be to bad. I think you will be ok as long as it passes the siffer test.

 

For the test they do a visual check, curb idle test, load test.

 

You need to find out what thay will be looking for. Will they just want you to have an air pump, egr, cats etc or what. That will dictate what system you can go with.

 

I called azdeq (arizona department for environmental quality), they do the testing, and I have to have all original equipment for my new motor to be emissions legal and passable

 

Per Holley's website, Stealth Ram emissions footnote:

AMBER
Emission Amber
The product accompanying this document is legal only for off-highway use (except in California or states that have adopted California emission standards), racing use, or for use on pre-emission- controlled motor vehicles/motor vehicle engines (pre-1966 domestic vehicles certified to California standards, pre-1968 domestic vehicles certified to federal standards, and all pre-1968 foreign vehicles), per the manufacturer's application guide.

Main issue is no EGR provision.

 

If that's the case then all you can do is put in a stock V8?

 

No, certified aftermarket replacement parts can be used.

 

I don't even know where to go from here now. Basically I have to build my motor around the emissions. What options do I have in the way of emissions leagal passable, and big power producing? If a tpi will choke a 383, a stealth ram has no egr....

 

Yeah, that manifold I used on that 92' build is 50 states legal but only on trucks and suvs (I don't know why tho, same damn motor). Here in Illinois they didn't even open the hood. Just put the sniffer in the tailpipe and start the testing. The install was so clean you couldn't tell it wasn't stock.

 

Lucky haha. Any new suggestions/opinoions?

 

how much power could I get out of a 350 tpi, with better heads, cam ported intake plenum runners, or anything else that would make power.

 

You can get pretty good power out of a 350 TPI. Check the atilla's best builds thread for examples.

You can't port stock runners. They are just thin metal tubes.

 

Maybe a 350 tpi is more practical anyway. Ill check it out thanks.
So maybe not port the runners then, but would it matter anyway

 

Yeah he had a modified TPI 383 on there that did 457 hp @ 6000 rpm that used the same cam I did on that 350. That would be about 360-365 whp. Or you can sell what you have and put in a mild cam ported heads LS motor and make 420+ whp :-)

 

I wish, haha, that'd be too expensive right now

 

Well you can do this, build the car around a motor that makes a ton of torque. Throw in a 2.73 or 3.08 gear and a 2000-2200 converter. Build that 457hp/531ft TPI motor and you will be fine. As long as you have it set up with the right gearing/converter for the TPIs rpm range it will run like a bat out of hell and with the long gearing you can make the best out of that big block type torque. That way you can set it up to be smog legal. Imo

 

I'm really liking the 350 tpi build. Vortec heads are a great price and great performers, I've al?wasy liked the tpi looks and tq potential, and it'll be cheaper to build than a 383. Will my 79 block (out of a c10) be compatible with the vortec intake, heads, or anything else that'll go into this motor. Its an 010 020 4 bolt main, so its a good block, id like to use it... also I wanted to go t-56, so with a 2pc rear seal, is that gonna be a problem? And again I'm curious as to wether or not ill be able to even use the block, not only for parts compat, but for emissions? Is it illegal to use something older than your car?

 

You guys think of any parts to make this motor any more powerful/torquie?

 

If I were you I would swap that 79' block for a roller cam block. It will be much cheaper because you don't have to buy the roller cam retro stuff. You could get a 2 bolt roller cam block and buy some 4 bolt splayed caps or find a truck 4 bolt roller cam block. As far as more power, whatever the TPI can support that would be your limit but don't forget the smog testing.

 

What's the difference between mine and a roller block?

 

Your block came with a hyd flat tappet cam, 87' and up has a Hyd roller cam, one pc rear main seal and if you get a vortec block you would already have your heads. The only way you can use a roller cam/lfter setup in that 79' is to buy retro fit stuff. To tell you the truth you would be better off getting a roller block and starting with that.

 

Hmm, ill look around for one, id rather not retro fit

 

Smart man. lol

 

I think this setup will be nice with a t-56, my gears now are 3.42 but not posi and drum brake. I'm planning on getting a 4th gen rear end, disk brakes, posi, good gearing. How does that sound? I think it'll hold its own

 

That sounds good but if that motor makes 530lb of torque and you can get it to hook up you are going to bust that stock 4th gen rear with that stick.

 

What would the rear need to stay together

 

The numbers posted say it peaks at 479 tq. Would the rear still need beefing

 

Stock rear ends break pretty easily with the factory engines, even the 305s.

 

Well if you are not going to use Drag radials or slicks and it's not a race car then take what you have (10-bolt) put in some 28 spline axles a trutrac diff, aftermar gear, weld up the axle tubes and get a good girdle for it. That's what I did with that 92' Camaro and it's held up to some 10 second passes with spray. Best would be a 9 inch or 12 bolt be they cost so....

 

As for the specifics of the tpi 350 in atillas build list, it doesn't say forged internals or not?