Update: Got a Miller Syncrowave 300, pointers appreciated


Has anyone here used the Harbor Freight TIG welders (or any other Chinese variation)?

I am saving to buy the new Miller Diversion 165, but was curios as the the quality of the HF unit. I know it can't weld aluminum and is a touch start, but how easy is it to use, and does anybody have pics of their welds from one?

I had a HF flux-core MIG for years, built 4 turbo kits, several exhaust systems, all kinds of brackets, repaired our CNC machines, made CNC tool holders, and the list goes on. Finally broke after about 50 spools of wire, could have been repaired - just a simple rectifier went on the wire feed circuit board, but I replaced it with a Sears unit I picked up locally for $100 used once (and want to do junkcltr's solenoid mod to).

Now that my shop has grown from a 2 car garage to 1000 square feet, I have the desire to have something a little better around. Headers and exhaust has become a regular business item and feel it's time for an upgrade.

Either way the Miller is getting bought, but for a couple hundred bucks, why not have a "beater" as well?

Any thoughts, input would be appreciated.

Thanks,

-John

 

I would just save the money and buy the miller. HF is good for consumable parts IMO

 

yes i use the chicago electric TIG welder... i think it was only like 200-300$ and is DC current only. its the size of a shoebox and is 220v. Ive done my roll bar with it and my STB, TQ arm mount for my ford 8.8... not to mention anything else Ive done for my car that used 1/8" steel or thicker. It works really good actually. no issues with it yet. but Im not gona complain bc its my dads and i get to use it for free! but i would love a miller or something better if i could afford it.

somethings i dont like... its only DC... so i cant do aluminum . and it doesnt have a pedal to start the arc! u have to touch the material real fast with the electrode to get the arc started (which contaminates the electrode) u will be grinding electrodes every week or so depending on how much u weld etc. also would have liked a foot pedal/hand control to control the ARC for thicker/thinner steels.

heres some of the welds i just did with it.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...rut-tower.html

 

Awesome! That's all I needed to know

Thanks blackbird

 

can you get infra branded welders over there?

that brand is the most used here in mexico and people swear by them.

 

Not sure, never heard of them.


Am now torn! I have spotted a few local welders for $800-1000. Got my eye on a Miller Syncrowave 300 for $800, also saw a Lincoln Idealarc 300 AMP and Miller 330 both for $900. Have almost enough to buy on of those, just not sure

Still tempted to get the Harbor Freight box for now and keep saving the pennies.

 

Miller Syncro 300 is still for sale. Still hooked up and running, going to look at it Tuesday!

Only things not with the machine are the bottle (he wants his deposit back), and the arc feeds - I have some from another machine we sold at the old shop and just need the correct plug ends.

Air cooled torch, few filler rods, new pedal.

 

i don't think you can go wrong with the Miller. To be honest with you, I wouldn't waste my money on the Harbor Freight unit...just put the money toward a quality welder like a Miller, Hobart, or Lincoln. I'm using a Hobart Tigmate, and it's not the best TIG in the world but it works real well for automotive applications. From what I hear, the Miller Diversion 165's work pretty well too.

 

Looked at the Miller today. The guy had it setup with a piece of 1/2" steel already grounded, put on the helmet and gloves, struck a nice arc even though the tip was poorly ground. Then I swirled it around to push some metal and it works nice. Tried it a second time with some filler rod

Machine is in excellent condition!

Just got to source a bottle and fill place, going to be picking it up between tomorrow and Monday.

 

It's in the shop,

Miller Syncrowave 300

 

It's a giant!









Anybody want give a noob some pointers?

 

Go to your local welding supply and pick up a pack of the slide cards that Miller makes. It will give you good starting points for gas flow, tungsten size, amperage, etc. They help a lot.

 

Thanks!

I finally scrounged up enough money to get a bottle, some filler, a suitable breaker and some 6/3. Should be up and running next week sometime.

 

Lucky man, it is a big ole bastard, i've been keeping my eyes out for a good deal, my neighbor got setup with a new miller mig and tig, guy made him a great deal on em a few years back, i been eyeing up his tig, he's a old dude, has had 3 heart attacks so like he said he's old and shaky, he gets me over there to tig stuff up for him on his kids circle track cars, trying to talk him outta the tig...The world would be a great place if i had a tig in the garage

 

in 1995,i bought a new miller"econotig" 150A tig welder
though really basic,it has been a really good welder
only problem i have had is my garage does not have
the electrical service capacity to run it on high range
while welding aluminum with AC low range will weld
aluminum up to about 1/8"

 

What kind of breaker did you run it on? I was recommended to use a 100 amp, the guy I bought the welder from had it on a 30, I'm probably going to be running it off a 50.

 

A decent all purpose TIG welder, if you can find it anymore, is a Lincoln Squarewave Pro TIG 175. Can do both AC and DC currents up to 175amps as well as stick welding. Our FSAE team has one and I absolutely enjoy welding with it.

Last time I saw a price on a good shape used one was $1000. It must be a popular welder because everywhere that lists one says they are out of stock.

 

Well, the tank was more than expected, the 80cf tank was $25 cheaper than the 120cf and only $4 cheaper to fill, so I got the 120cf. The guy at the supply house told me it was ok to run 8/3 wire, so I followed his advice, and also got a 50amp 2 pole breaker.

Still need to practice, but I have never run a TIG machine before.

Here's a decent weld that was made...





And how they looked with a flux MIG...

 

cool, i could use a machine like that.

 

I ran out of gas already!

Does anyone know if I can cheat the gas a little lower on the regulator when welding .065" materials? 20cfm seems like a lot for such small welds, but then again, I'm still a n00b lol. Perhaps I'll experiment with gas flow, but was hoping for some pointers.

Thanks for all the tips so far, when this tank gets a refill, they should have more of the Miller calculator sheets - this place was actually helpful, and the rod was much cheaper than expected. $4.xx for 1lb of 1/6" mild steel.

 

what kind of pre/post flow settings are you running, we had a welder at work that had gotten screwy and was using gas like it was going out of style, maintenance brought up that we were using more argon than before so i checked all my alum. mig machines and they were fine but one of my tigs was literally flowing anytime it was turned on

 

Gas is not flowing past the 6 second minimum setting, and I checked the connections when I set it up. The tank is 4' tall and is 140cf iirc - but it seems to me that 140cf won't last long at 20-25cfm.

Here's the welding station I set up. I used an old Bridgeport mill vice that was given to me (68lbs) and drilled/tapped a 1/2"pce of steel to bolt the small swivel vice to. This allows me to sit and move the part in just about any direction, and the heavy vice holds well while allowing it to be slid around the desk...



Some more welds...









I have never used a TIG before, so if you could let me know what you see, it would be appreciated






Thanks again.

 

Miller recommends a setting of 11-17cfh for the gas flow on steel. I split it and run 15cfh and at that thats the lower limit of what the welder likes. For aluminum I bump it up to 20cfh which is the middle of what miller recommends.

 

Thanks for the info

I borrowed my friend's tank from his MIG welder today to finish something I was working on.

co2/argon mix, started with 15cfh (I was thinking cfM lol) and the welds were really oxidized, specially on the outer edges. Since I have been primarily building headers, the steel is only .065" and thought a lower gas setting would help, it took about 22cfh to really get a clean work area - any lower and the wire brush has to be used at every stop/start. Building headers, there are a lot of start/stops


Also with welding round parts, I find it easier to swirl the puddle with the torch tip, rather than use the rod to build up, but that may just be because I am so used to MIG.

 

You must use 100% argon, you cannot use co2 for TIG. In some cases helium, but not reccomended for steel. You need to check the max input current your welder can draw and wire accordingly. I'm pretty sure #8 wire is way too small for this unit. If your breaker is sized for the #8 you should be OK, you will just pop the breaker when you crank it up.

I would get a 20 series flex torch (20 is water cooled) some 1/16 and 3/32 1.5 or 2.0% lanthanated tungsten. For what your doing sharpen the tungsten to a pencil like point on a dedicated grinding wheel, or belt sander belt. Better yet get a 600 grit diamond lapidary wheel off e-bay and mount it outboard of your grinding wheel on a bench grinder.

Your welds look surprisingly good for some one who hasn't tig welded before. think of TIG welding as a series of overlapping spot welds. make a puddle, add filler, then move over about 1/2 the diameter of the puddle, add filler and repeat. thats the basic movement. There is a buttload of info on welding on the web, youtube has videos, Miller has educational materials and a message board and smartflix had videos to rent.

 

Thanks

Yes, I used a 50amp breaker and matching wire to use an an extension cord. I have yet to pop the breaker with the low setting maxed, but sometimes when turning on the machine and you get the "double pop" of it not coming on fully because of the spring in the switch, the breaker will trip as it comes on.

The manual says I should be running a 100amp breaker to reach full capacity.

The last trip to the supply, I was chatting with the salesman and he also suggested 1/6th tungsten (red ends), so I bought 3 pcs and a matching collet along with some 1/8" rod for filling the little corners of the "D" shape flanges and the larger gaps on the formed collectors (using 1/16" for the butt ends). Since the flanges are "D" shape, I have a small tool you can see on the desk that forms the end of the primaries to match the shape, but when using a bend into the flange, the sharp parts of the "D" are less pronounced and need fill.

Still getting used to TIG, and actually surprised myself with a lap joint I welded yesterday, but didn't take any pics. Keeping the torch moving slow and steady, got the "dimes" to sit just right, but is so tough to do on round pipe. I think I need to make some kind of adjustable hand rest, specially for starting the weld, otherwise holding your hand up in front of you tends to let the tungsten go to the pool too often.

At first, I was using my large belt sander to shapen, but then realized I have dozens of surface grinding wheels for an old surface grinder that was given to me and set up on that with a medium white wheel. Sanding it to a nice taper approx 2-2.5 times the diameter of the tungsten, then just touching the tip on end to make a small flat. I believe that some of my welds may have been contaminated before I knew the sharpening device needed to be dedicated since the sanding belt is what I used to make the ends of the mandrel bends flat , it was really bothering me that I knew the tungsten didn't dip in and I was still getting the small bubbles - but now know why haha.

I'll see about taking pics of the way I am sharpening the tungsten when I have a chance, but here's some pis of other welds that have been made...











I will have to say that learning to weld on this kind of stuff should really make a flat/straight weld pretty simple, as I have yet to try to make astraight weld.

 

not bad. keep it up ull get the feel and the roll of dimes that it will look like. looks like ur using too much heat or not enough rod. i run 15cfm of pure argon when i weld steel. i tried 10cfm and u get alittle contamination. i also use the red tungsten on mild steel. when i build my headers im gona use 1/16" mild steel rods vs the 3/32 ones i have now. they will be too big for 16gauge steel headers.

but seriously not bad for the first time. i cant believe u tried headers your first time. i spent 2 weeks just welding flat steel all gauges with rods to get my technique down and to get the roll of dimes down.

 

Doing good, do not flat the point when welding steel! A razor point starts better at lower amps and is easier to direct the arc. I prefer using a gas lense for all my welding, i only go to the standard stuff in the rare case i cant use the lens. What torch are you using? I like the gas lens with a #6 or #8 cup (get both) you can get more tungsten stickout with the lens which will help you see better and the lens gives better gas coverage. I would ditch the red (thoriated) tungsten, besides its mildly radioactive lanthanated or ceriated will give better arc starts, last longer, is also great on alluminum, and sharpens a bit easier.

It seems like your beads are a little too sunken. If you use the spot weld visualization, you can add filler to raise the bead (spot) until its where it should be. Thinner filler generally gives better appearance (My opinion) since you can add it without freezing the puddle. Thick filler lowers the puddle temp too much. Keep the filler at a very low angle when adding it, and practice feeding it through your fingers when your sitting around.

 

Thanks again

I used the Miller site http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...ips/setup.html to get the idea of blunting the tip of the tungsten and it seemed to work pretty good.

I would like to try different ceramic on the torch if that would allow me to move the tungsten a little further away, but with the way the gas gets consumed (haven't had much luck below 25cfh) I was hesitant about turning it up, perhaps a different tip will help. Being able to see what was just done is sometimes difficult because of the torch being in the way.

I know what you mean about practicing moving the rod, still a little clumsy with it lol.

 

looking at the pictures you posted, it looks like your using a 17 series aircooled torch. I learned with that but personally i don't like it, way too bulky. I use a 20 series water cooled torch (i have and reccomend a flex version)It is much smaller and lighter and easier to use. You will need a pump and resovoir or plumb it to tap water. Also if you do upgrade get the super flex (rubber vs vinyl) hoses. All the consumables for the 20 are smaller too. If your running 25 cfh and having coverage issues you might be running too much gas! it will pull in air and make turbulence. How you position the torch matters too. It should be about 10-15 degrees from perpendicular to the work piece. Tungsten pointed in the direction of travel. If your still using c25 that will cause issues too. You MUST use argon, try 10-15 CFH. You don't blunt tungsten for welding with DC, Only for AC welding such as alluminum.

 

the welds look alright for you being a beginner. As mentioned before, I think you have too much heat and not enough filler. Some indicators of too much heat are the dull gray color of the weld and the undercut, and an indicator of not enough filler is the sunken nature of the welds.

I think a lot of guys blunt the tip of the tungsten when welding pipe; I've tired it before just playing around and haven't really seen much of a difference. You're off to a very good start, and congrats on the new headers!

 

Thanks again guys.

While traveling from one job to another we passed by the welding supply and asked to stop and get a couple things. They called me the other day and told me they had more slide rules, but realized that Miller has an on-line calculator, but doesn't do much good when you don't have net access at your shop lol.

While there I grabbed a 1/4" and a 5/16" ceramic orifice and some of the ceriated tungsten. Can't wait to get to the shop tonight and try tuning the gas down and having better concentration. I believe the gas consumption was in part to the HUGE cup lol.

The headers aren't for me, I have been making them for Chevy Beretta/Corsica and now for the Cavalier v6's, hence the need for a better quality welder. There's a turbo on the collector of each header for my car Although I may scrap them and build new ones after having all this practice designing/building headers lately.

 

getting there, the "ceramic orifices" are called gas cups, yours sounds fancier though. The copper fitting that screws into the torch is a collet body and the little sleeve that goes into the collet body is the collet. I would reccomend a #6 or #8 3/8" or 1/2". The number is the size in 1/16s. Once again, do not blunt the tungsten, especially for thin material and precision work. A longer taper would probably give you better results. I usually grind my 1/16 tungsten with a taper about 3/8" long. Turn the gas down to 15CFH and mind your torch angle. How far are you sticking the tungsten past the cup? No more than the diameter of the cup at the MOST! Stickout affects gas sheilding. you can get better coverage and more stick out with a gas lens, instead of a collet body. You will need new cups for the gas lens and maybe (cant remember) a new gasket (the white ring).

 

Well looking on the TIG slide rule,it is called an orifice, and Miller recommends 50-80amps DC, 15CFH, 1/16" tungsten, 1/16" filler and a 1/4" to 3/8" orifice, so that's what I am doing.

I looked at the 20 series torches today when at the supply house, but forgot to ask price with all the other stuff going on. The owner is adding large underground tanks and will be filling in-house for argon, co2 and some other gas (they are hoping to get helium soon). They charged me $5 for the #49, #50 tips and 3 orange tungsten.

I tried leaving the tip sharp and it didn't make a difference to me, but then again, I'm a n00b. I played with it for about 2 hours today with the distance of the tungsten from the material, filler feeding speed and torch speed. I find that with the machine on low (5-75 amps), 1/4" tip (#50 - #49 is 5/16" orifice) and the orange tungsten seems to work pretty good.

Still trying to figure out what to do with the weld when you add filler too fast and it builds up - almost looking like a caterpillar. How do you go about flattening that weld back down wile looking like the infamous row of nickels? Some kind of technique for that?

I will upload some pics in a few, but MAN!!! what a difference.

 

PS: Yes, I am familiar with a collet, I have been a CNC machinist for 3 yrs now and we use collets quite often. I have a surface grinder in my shop (I work in my shop after hours and weekends).

Here's some pics of my work space for you to look at while I get the pics to the PC, then to the webz...

http://s448.photobucket.com/albums/q...hop/?start=all

 

Your tip shouldn't be able to stab a brick. It needs a slight "roundedness" on the end for better heat dispersion/a more even flow. Ant your stick out should be no more than twice the tungsten diameter. (Hobart School of Welding)

Welding student...

 

Thanks again peeps

From left to right,


#50, #49 and "standard ceramic orifices with sharpened tungsten...



more laughing (don't worry, I can take it )...

 

The high spots can be lowered by adding heat. In order to get the "stack of dimes" (BTY not always the best weld) you need to think of the bead as a series of spot welds. Picture it, strike the arc, let the puddle form, dip the filler, move the torch about half the diameter of the puddle, repeat. You should practice on flat stock to get the rhythm down and better visualize the process. If you were practicing on flatstock, keep the filler a few degrees off the stock, at a very low angle. You can dip by moving it strait in or by swiping it slighly across the puddle. If you dip and the bead gets high, just let the torch linger a second more or add a little heat. If the bead sinks, back off the pedal a bit and add more filler.

I'll say it again, your tungsten should be very sharp, not dulled, not flattened. The only time you will flat a rare earth tungsten is when welding alluminum, which uses AC current not DC. It will form a slight rounded ball on the end. In the event you were using pure tungsten to weld alluminum you would break it off square and strike an arc to ball the end (the only use for Pure tungsten is alluminum and it is effectively obsolete, superceded by rare earth types). Ceriated, lanthanated, thoriated, zirconiated and any other tungsten besides pure gets sharpened to a point and SLIGHTLY blunted, but that is only for ALLUMINUM. As far as stick out goes, it is best to keep it to a minimum, but you have to be able to see what your doing. the Hobart spec is academic, it is not practical in most cases. You can stick out further but need to be aware that cantamination can occour (it can occour regardless of stickout!)

 

Yeah, I found when keep the filler really flat to the stock and using it like solder - dabbing just before the pool, the welds are too low, adding the filler too fast or not hot enough, it tends to build up.

I guess finding the correct torch speed vs dabs of the filler will make the pattern, and the distance of the torch and amount of amps is what makes the width of the welds?

If the stacked dimes isn't the best weld, what is?

 

The distance from the tip of the electrode to the puddle is called arc length, it shouldn't be more than 1/8", less is preferable. the best weld has good penetration, no contamination or inclusions and no undercut of the base metal. Looking like dimes is purely asthetic. It may be a good weld that looks nice but looking nice does not guarantee a good weld. Once you think you have it down, weld a few tubes and cut them perpendicular to the bead to inspect. Since you seem to be doing a lot of the same thing, keep notes on your settings, then cut samples and compare.

 

Thanks for all the tips, guys! Finally tried this...

 

Tried this too. I know I can make the welds more consistent, but was happy they stuck together after a few attempts. I was also using .035" filler. Going to try again using .023" MIG wire straightened out a bit.



Here's a true merge collector I made. My welding has come a long way!

 

Much better beads in that last pic. That actually looks damn good, really... particularly for the type of weld and positions they were in. Nice work.

 

What did you end up running for gas?
20-25L/min is alot,,,, for mig, dont know about tig.
I mix my own gas since I am cheap https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...c-mig-gas.html

Also what is the "junkcltr's solenoid mod"?

 

Look at the dates of the posts, my welding habits have changed drastically over the years


Generally I am running 11cfh-25cfh with a #4 cup and 1/16" tungsten. For the razor blades in the photo, I was running 15amps DC, turned the gas up to 25cfh (helped cool the weld) and just did the regular tungsten sharpening as usual. The next day, did some more reading and polished my tungsten tip after grinding it - what a difference in arc!!! I will always polish the tungsten from now on. I also used some of my .023" MIG wire straightened out, and was able to keep the arc stable down to almost 5amps (but that wasn't quite enough to melt the razors).

junkcltr is another member here. He wrote how to take a MIG machine that has a "always hot" torch and put a Ford starter solenoid in it tied to the trigger to make it "live only when welding"

As far as shielding gas, I use straight argon for the TIG and a 25/75 mix. I have a 125cf tank for each and think I pay $43 for the pure argon and $45 for the mix.

I recently ended up buying a Hobart Handler 190 recently, GREAT machine - specially for the price. My welding supply house let it go to me for $730 cash out the door.


Here is a few more attempts after playing around with the tungsten and using thinner wire...

 

Ok my lincoln is not hot unless the trigger is pulled, and its always been that way.

 

A lot of them are. Older and less expensive machines are always hot. Makes it a pain if you accidentally touch the work when starting. Built some headers with a machine like that, kept touching the work when bracing for a tack - my eyes were burning by the end of the day