machinist

Justin,

The ID of that 4th gen wheel I borrowed is 15 3/8". It looks like it's a spun wheel verses a cast one. The wall thickness is much thinner than my 87 wheels.

Anyway, it looks like no one is interested in the C5 rotor and LS1 caliper. So guess I'll drop that project for now.

Justins86bird

I should see what my Firehawks are. I think they are around 15 1/4".

Don't give up. Your C4 brakes working well enough or was this mostly a 'see what more I can' do project? From the sounds of things, it sounds like your pretty close to completion of the C5/LS1 combo.

Justins86bird

Just dug a wheel out from the back of my garage and measured it. The wheel not only steps in, but has a taper to it making the ID get even smaller. Using a tape measure, I get about 15 1/4" Whats worse is by where the wheel mounts to the axle, the ID is 14 3/4". Of course a tape measure is not the most accurate way to measure the ID, but its fairly close. Maybe off by 1/8".

SDCal7

Has anyone figured out the front brake caliper adapter bracket dimensions yet? This is for adapting the '01 SS Brakes onto the third gen. I know a few of us are working on this. Anyone got it?

machinist

Did you read my post about the C5 rotors in this thread? I was going to work on that, but there was no interest, so I kinda forgot about it.

The C5 rotor is cheap, and allows me to make the bracket much thicker that if we were using the LS1 rotors.

Take a look what I posted on the C5 rotor and let me know if you want to go this way.

machinist

SDCal7-Bruce

Do you have the phone number for the tech guy you talked to at Earl's? I sure could use it.

Thanks
Dan

SDCal7

Thanks for the thought. I have read all the brake info threads and it sounds good. but I already have all the SS brake parts. Let me know if anyone has the caliper plate dimensions for this swap.
Bruce

SDCal7

Hi Machinist,
Yes, the guy I spoke with was Lloyd at Earls. The technical line is (310) 609-1602. I've received the brake lines and fittings and all I need now is to start machining the rotors, put in the ARP long wheel studs and figure out that plate.
Bruce - SDCal7

89 Iroc Z

Sorry that I have left you guys hanging with the bracket design. I can’t find anyone around here that will machine down my rotors for less then $100. Also I have been extremely busy with summer classes. And my car is still broken because the guy I bought the Dana 44 rear from lied to me and it has a bent axel (just my luck with rearends, I am on my third rear so far).

Anyways if anyone knows a place in Northern VA that will machine down my rotors for a good deal let me know and I will get my bracket design posted.



Machinist/Alloy,
I like your C5 rotor idea but I am not sure if I see the benefit of it instead of just going fully with the C5 brake setup.

MrDude_1

the only thing i dont like about the idea is that i have to turn down the rotor before i can use it.

it may be no big deal to you, but i like bing able to goto a parts store and bolt on the brake parts.... so if im doing a cross country trip and warp a rotor or somthing, it would be nice to bolt it on.


heres a better question but probly wont amount to anything.

how/what would i have to do to make the brakes have a wheel speed sensor so that i can use ABS. btw, please dont argue about if you think you need ABS or not. i just think it would be nice to be able to stop and turn like 90% of the cars on the road today... i donno about you, but i dont have 4 brake pedals in my car, and my roads arnt racetrack clean enough to just set the proportion valve and have it always stop evenly..


the rears would be no prob... just use a 4thgen rear...

89 Iroc Z

ABS? What car are your trying to do the swap on? To my knowledge no thirdgen came with ABS.

machinist

Cheaper and more easily available caliper.

machinist

I understand what you are saying, but if you are worried about that, get an extra rotor and put in the spare tire well with some padding around it and take it with you when you go on a trip.

The major benefit I see using the C5 rotor is that we solve the bracket thickness problem completely, and you dont have to cut the bump stop off the spindle like you do when using the LS1 rotor. You use a bracket very simular to the 1LE bracket, so it's a much stronger setup with the smaller and thicker bracket.

Forthe minor price difference, there is no way I'd go with the LS1 rotor considering the problems that are solved using the C5 rotor.

And, you also have to remember, if you read the C5 thread, the C5 setup will not fit a 16" wheel either. I was just trying to find a way to use a larger rotor, solve the bracket problem, and be able to use stock 16" wheels.

MrDude_1

ahhh.. that is true....

89 Iroc Z: id figure somthing out. im doing some research on GMs ABS systems right now.

89 Iroc Z

C5 rotors and the LS1 caliper will clear 16 inch wheels? I thought the C5 caliper had almost the exact same dimensions. The only physical difference between the C5 and LS1 caliper (that I am aware of) is the strengthening/cooling ribs. The LS1 caliper they are only at the end on the C5 caliper they go the whole length of the caliper.

machinist

Read my post from 7-3-03 about the C5 rotor and bracket.

_max_

will the 98-02 or the93-97 hubs fit our 3rdgen spindles i am sorry if this has been mentioned before i have looked and fuggen looked and fuggen looked

machinist

It has been covered. Other than the 4th gen rotor and caliper, nothing off the 4th gen can be "easily" made to fit. We modify our 3rd gen rotors into hubs then slip "hat" style rotors over them. The newer style sealed hubs will not fit our spindles at all. Not even close.

I know if will be a long read, but to get completely up to speed on the front brake upgrades, read the C5, 1LE alternative, and LS1 brake thread completely through and you will understand all and be able to make a better decision on what direction you want to go.

MrDude_1

mmk, i know you're having some bad luck and stuff, but when is the brake caliper mounting bracket design going to be finialized?

and once it is, i need someone to make me a set.


am i missing anything from my parts list?
parts list:

hub from 3rdgen rotor: turned to 5.6"
LS1 rotors
caliper
custom earls hoses for proper length
caliper mounting bracket


question parts:
prop valve...?? should i get a adjustable one from summit?
should i / can i use a 4thgen master cyl and prop valve?

MrDude_1

also.. i know this has been talked about but...

how confident are YOU at having the current setup get slammed HARD on the bumpstop at 140+??

89 Iroc Z

The hub size depends on your rotor “hat” size. I only need to turn mine down to 5.8. For the brake hoses it looks like we will be able to use either the stock thirdgen hoses or the stock LS1 hoses.

As far as a LS1 prop valve. I don’t think they have the same fittings as the thirdgen prop valves. But, if they do let me know. I want to find out what prop valve Baer brakes uses on there thirdgen “Grand Touring [GT]” brake kits. That would give some insight on what prop valve to use for the LS1 calipers. The GT kit uses C5 calipers which have very similar if not the same hydraulics as the LS1 caliper since they are based on the same design.

If the issues has not been resolved by the time I do the swap I am going to use my stock valve and then try putting in a 1LE valve and use whatever feels better.

89 Iroc Z

Do you mean your steering bump stops?? You will never use your steering bump stops at high speeds unless you have a death wish . You only hit the bump stops when doing a U-turn or something like that. In order to hit the bump stops you must turn the steering wheel until it stops.

I am sure there will be no problem because the bracket design has been tested and proven by Bear brakes. I am just moving Bears mounting holes to accommodate for the LS1 caliper.

_max_

well i havent been able to get on the internet cuz of work but i stopped at speedautomotive today and seen that the hubs would'nt fit and thank you for the reply machinist :hail:

89 Iroc Z

This is a side by side comparison of the 1LE/C4 (top) pads VS. LS1/C5 (bottom) pads.

89 Iroc Z

I found a local machine shop today that has been around from before I was born. I brought my chopped up stock rotors that I needed to be put on a lathe and my LS1 rotor in for a fitment test of the hub. They did it all the machine work for $60.

The hubs were cut down to 5.85 inches outer diameter. The LS1 rotors have a small lip were the hub mounts and to make sure the hub makes full contact with the rotor a small amount of metal was taken off the outer face of the hub (show in the picture).

I am now able to finish my bracket design I will post it within the next week.

89 Iroc Z

Here is a picture of the hub in the hat of the LS1 rotor, fits perfectly.

89 Iroc Z

Here is a close up of the metal taken off the hub to clear the lip in the rotor.

SDCal7

Sounds like you're almost there. I'm close, painting the calipers and machining the rotors and spindles. Let me know as soon as you figure out the caliper plate dimensions. I'm thinking of assembling a mock up to test fit the parts and maybe design my own plate.

MrDude_1

i finally got hired at the machine shop ive been wanting to work at for awhile now..

i now have access to CNC machines........


can someone give me the plans for that bracket?


my email is MrDude_1@excite.com


im so happy...... im going to pull some rotors off a junkyard car this weekend, and see if i can snag the calipers and rotors for cheap from a yard....

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Bump...

MartinCadek

hey the thread is back :-)

here's a question for you guys...

would it be structurally safe to add a 2" spacers on top of the rotor to fit 4th gen wheels on a 3rdgen ?

MrDude_1

if they are bolt on spacers, then yes.

it would be fine... the spacers just bolt on in place of the wheel, and then the wheel bolts on to the spacers.



edit:

since you are buying spacers anyway, find the ones you would get for a stock braked thirdgen, then subtract the width of the rotors hat..... that would make the wheel sit exactly where you wanted it...



also, ANYONE have ANYthing about the bracket dimensions? even a good drawing like the C4 one would work...

wm_sorg

Anyone here addressing the issue with the rear emergency brake cable? I have a LS1 4th gen rear in my set up and do not have any good ideas on how to get it to work.

Someone fabbed up a bracket that is pictured in another thread but I can not visualize how it is used. I hear the earlier LT1 style calipers and cables will work with without brackets, etc. Does anyone know if the LT1 style cables will work with LS1 rear calipers?

Any thoughts are greatly apreciated.

MartinCadek

yeah the bracket is the last thing that's really needed. all the theory is worked out but the dimensions for the bracket aren't done yet (wish I could help)

I already have spacers (bolt on quality ones). :-)

I might just buy the parts and let a machine shop make me a bracket that will fit , I have 17" wheels already on the car so clearance won't be an issue.

89 Iroc Z

This thread is about front LS1 brakes, not rear. Just wanted to clear up any confusion.

As far as the bracket to mount front LS1 brakes I have figured out the dimensions, I am waiting for my roommate to get back from vacation to CAD it out for me. Then I will post the dimensions for all.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

wm_sorg,

Dyno Don over in the Southern Cal region board has the bracket made up. Do a search for him and see what you come up with. I've seen it posted recently.

Ed

MrDude_1

can you either post or email the dimensions to me??

i can either CAD it out or if i cant, i know someone that will...

my email is MrDude_1@excite.com

btw, local picknpull was having a sale, so i went there today, got some 3rdgen stuff, but there were no LS1s to strip the brake stuffs from...

im going to try another yard later this week... worse case, it'll be next weekend and i'll go to the "expencive" yard...


in anycase, i should have upgraded brakes soon...
and i need them... my pads hit the squeek bars yesterday...

alloy

iTrader: (16)

It doesn't matter if it's an LS1 or not. Any 98 or newer camaro-firebird is the same. There is no "real" LS1 front setup after 1998. It's just standard equipment 1998 and up camaro-firebird brakes. I beleive it's referred to as LS1 because until 1998 only the LS1 cars had those brakes.

Justins86bird

The dual piston fronts and drum ebrake type rears came out the same year the LS1 was first introduced into the fbody in 98, hence the "LS1 brakes" even though they came on V6s as well.

wm_sorg

Thanks Ed. I saw the bracket. Just can not visualize what it actually does when installed. I might have to send him a PM to see if he has pictures of it instaled. I was hoping someone here had done also.

MrDude_1

sorry, i should have been more specific.... i ment to say, they didnt have any 98+ fbodys... i think the newest i saw was a 90 camaro.....


alloy, roughly how much did they charge you for 3rdgen spindles?

im considering just buying a 2nd set to minimize the downtime on my car incase somthing goes wrong with the swap, and i have no clue what a reasonable price for them would be....

Matt87GTA

Well I'm not alloy, but I have picked up some spindles for "a little project" I have been a part of .... The local yards here (Mnpls/St. Paul metro area) all wanted $30 a piece for them.... I picked up a few from a place farther outside of town and got a lot better deal .

alloy

iTrader: (16)

Well at my local u-pull-it yard depending on who's working spindles are around $40 to $50 each. Rotors are $16 each.

It's definately easier to mod the spindles off the car. Then you can put the hubs on the new spindles and if you have everything ready to go, the changover should take but a few hours doign it this way. Don't forget to get a spring compressor and tie rod/ball joint seperator forks also.

MrDude_1

i think im going to chang my game plan some...

im going to get some spindles and do the entire conversion off the car, and wait until my struts and front end bushings come in and do it all at once.. that way i only have to pull out the spring compressor one time

plus i think that would give me a HUGE before and after diff... lol.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Doing it all at once is the best way to do it. If everything is apart why not change it all out?

I have only had to buy one set of spindles for my initial 1LE upgrade and they ran me $50 for the pair, just to compare price.


Ed

TheGreatJ

That's what I'm planning. I'm gonna do the front suspension/brakes as a winter project. Get the brakes mounted up to spindles off-the-car, and just yank the whole thing and change balljoints, tie-rods, control arm bushings, struts, springs, swaybar, and brakes all at once. The centerlink and idler arm were replaced 2 months ago, so the front end will basically be all new.

novass

iTrader: (1)

MrDude,
Did you ever get plans for the bracket? If you did could you email them to me tjkoprevich@yahoo.com


thanks

MrDude_1

nope, noone ever sent me anything... i dont think he even has them written out yet...


worse case, im going to have my hubs and spindle there and design my own mounting bracket.... athough i would prefer someone thats more experianced then I undertake the bracket design....


ideally i want a bracket that i can bolt on without modifiying the caliper mounting bosses... im trying to design this to be as bolt on as i can.

i have several friends that would probly love me to make them a similar setup, and the less custom machining per car i have to do, the better...

CobraKilla92Z

I have a couple questions myself. I have a 91 Camaro with 17" 4th gen wheels and spacers so they fit. I want to do the LS1 fronts and rears, since I have all the parts lying around already. My first question is did anyone ever make a blueprint for the caliper bracket? Also say I complete the LS1 brake upgrade on the front, with my wheels spacers and the 4th gen wheels how much if any will the wheel/tires stick out from where they are now? I have one more question if someone has the blueprint, could they write-up a step by step how to, so it's easier for everyone to follow, if so that'd be awsome.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Only the thickness of the rotor hat times 2.. basically about another 3/8" on both sides. You could always sell your current spacers and buy new ones that are just a bit thinner. I don't think it will make that much of a difference to worry about.


Ed