z28cdoyle

My carrier wasn't centered over the rotor either so I milled the bosses like Slayer2000 did. Actually much like he did becuase I also ground mine too far. Now I have to use some spacer washers to make up the difference. Not the end of the world, but I really wish I wouldn't have f&^$%&d up like that.

By the way Slayer, how do you make a washer that is only 0.018" thick? I need thin washers too and all I can think of is to use my grinder or Dremel to grind some down. I have a lot of trouble keeping them flat though. I think I need whatever tools you are using.

I do have some pics to post later tonight.

Chuck

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

I'll make them on a lathe. I make 316 stainless spacers similar to this all the time for mechanical seals so it's pretty easy. Chuck, if you know what thickness you need I'll be happy to make a couple of extras and mail them to you. If you let me know tonight before 11:00pm I'll make them tomorrow when I make mine. Also how many do you need? I only need 2 but while I'm setup I'll make a few more anyway.

Andy

z28cdoyle

Hey Andy,
I appreciate the offer to make some washers for me. I want to reassemble the right and left carriers again so I can measure the necessary thickness. I will get back to you in the next few days.

Chuck

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

That's fine. I'll be on vacation starting thursday and I won't be going back until the 8th of dec. Just let me know what you need and I can take care of it. by the way should the distance from the rotor to the carrier be exactly equal or is there some room to play with?

z28cdoyle

Here are some pictures of the LS1 brakes on my car. I still have to take them apart to properly center the caliper carrier over the rotor but they are good enough for some pictures.
I had to grind the hex head on the lower bracket bolt and grind the caliper carrier a little to clear the bolt. as you can see in the one photo.
I ground my spindle and brackets in a curved shape to clear the caliper piston bores. I enlarged my brackets compared to the original drawing posted by 89IROC-Z to hopefully make them more durable. This is probably why I had to grind them for clearance.
If you make your own brackets take some time to make sure the holes place the caliper carrier so the brake pads are centered on the rotor face. My oribinal one had the pad hanging off the outboard edge of the rotor.

z28cdoyle

OK, I guess you can only attach one pic at a time. Here is another.

z28cdoyle

And another...

z28cdoyle

But wait...there's more.

z28cdoyle

And one more for good measure.

z28cdoyle

I'm not sure about the rotor/carrier centering specification. I found that the carrier is shifted about 0.020" on the upper side. But on the lower side the offset is about 0.040". I kinda think I could put it together like this and it would live happily ever after. But I am not in any hurry. My car won't be back out on the track until next April so I plan to tweak it with shims until the carrier is centered on the top and bottom.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Nice job Chuck! Looks great. Looks like I just may have to swap over to the LS1s after all, they just look cool.


BRAVO!!

Ed

myold86

When the final measurements are done for the brackets, i can help some folks out here. I work on The big airplanes for a certain cargo airline and i'm in real good with the machine shop boys over here. I can see if i can get these made for a very small nominal fee. I've been reading the posts here for a while but i've never registered until now so bear with a new guy here! Anyway email me rore2112@yahoo.com The guys who work in the machine shop also race cars and get a little work done for themselvs......anyway let me know if i can be of help....

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

If I can get a scan of it I have the original bracket pic that I took to the engineers at work who put it on the cad program and added the dimensions to it. If the person who did the drawing doesn't mind I can post it. I just didn't want anyone getting pissed off about using their stuff without permission.

89 Iroc Z

I am home for thanksgiving break and will post the finalized CAD bracket when I get back to school.

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

Anyone got any updates yet? I still haven't got anything mounted yet but I'm going to try this week if my torque wrench shows up.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

OK,

With the first snow storm of the winter almost over here in the east - I'm jumping in to this Upgrade after reading thru most of the posts. There is Sooooooo Much information that it is overwhelming and I wanted to ask a few targeted questions and make a list of what I "believe" is needed to make the LS1 conversion successful. Can anyone out there correct me when I am wrong ??

Needed:

LS1 Brake Lines ?
LS1 Rotors
LS1 Calipers
Adjustable Proportioning Valve
82-92 Spindle ( to be cut )
82-92 Rotors ( to be cut )


Custom Bracket
LS1 Bracket ( Lukes Page? )

Custom Spindles
1LE Spindle Conversion ( Dans Page? )

Custom Hubs
Custom Hubs ( Lukes Page ? )



From What I can gather by reading all the messages related to this LS1 Upgrade I think the following is true :

The Hubs need to be cut from the 82-92 front rotors to an overall outside diameter of 5.8 ( then check fitment into the LS1 Rotor 's "hat" ? )

The 82-92 Spindles must be cut according to look like the pictures provided on Dans 1LE Front Brake conversion webpage ? Is there any detailed schematics for cutting them ? ( or just cut them to look like the pics !! ) I planned on removing the steering "stops........ should I wait and try to assemble the set-up before cutting ?

Will Factory GM LS1 Brake hoses be long enough to NOT to be a problem when turning the steering wheel to "full travel" ??

Is there a "FINALIZED" version of the LS1 Caliper Bracket design ?? ( It seems as if the one posted by Luke on 9-17 needed some adjustments to the mounting hole locations ). This Bracket needs to be 3/8" think with "Early" spindles and 5/16" with "late" spindles ?)



Here's what I have acquired in advance of this project:

82-92 Rotors
82-92 Spindles ( "EARLY" style I think, I need to verify that ! )
LS1 Calipers
LS1 Rotors
LS1 Brake Lines

The car currently has a 4 wheel disk brake system with 89 9-Bolt rear Disk Brakes (and matching M/C )

Wheel fitment is not a big deal to me right now, I've got 97SS, 01SS wheels, 01C5 Wheels, 92Z28 wheels ect,.... and will test them all once the brakes are installed !!


Am I way off here ??? I would like to verify the Bracket dimensions and the Modified Spindle dimensions so I can get them things cut after the machine shop is finishes cutting the Hubs from the 82-92 rotors !

What am I forgetting or Missing ?? There is so much info is the previous posts that It's hard to find the right information !

THANX



:hail:

z28cdoyle

Welcome to our project John.

OK, here's what I can tell you about me experience.

-Hubs: If you already have the LS1 rotors, I recommend machining the hubs to whatever size will allow them to fit in the rotors with a slight amount of clearance. I didn't get too concerned with the size, I just took the 3rd gen rotors and LS1 rotors to a local machine shop and let them cut them until they fit well.
-Spindle mods: I suggest you get the hubs made first so you can fit the LS1 rotors/calipers as a guide to where to make your final cuts/grinding on the spindle. You will still have to make the first cuts on the spindles by the "seat of your pants" since the LS1 parts won't fit until some of the spindle is cut away. I found that the upper portion of the spindle (upper stock caliper mounting ear that is to be removed) is not as critical as the lower portion. If you cut too much off here it is not that big of a deal. However, if you take a look at the photos posted by Ed and I you can see the lower portion of the spindle requires more care. If you cut the lower "arm" of the spindle back too far, the lower caliper bracket mounting bolt will be close to breaking out of the spindle. I recommend you initially cut the spindle so that too much material is left (then move your saw out and leave even more material, then make the cut) then fit your rotor/bracket/caliper. Fire up the grinder and slowly grind/cut away the spindle to be sure you don't take too much off by mistake.
-Bracket: I used Luke's bracket design and I think it's a good design. I had to fine tune the hole locations and enlarged the bracket around the bolt holes wherever I could just for good measure. I did not want the bracket moving around on the mounting bolts so my bolt holes are very close to the size of the bolts themselves. This means that unless the holes are in precisely the right place, the bolts won't engage the threads. This and the desire to center the brake pads on the rotor face as best I could required the painstaking tweaking of the bracket hole locations. Patience is a virtue.
-Steering stops: I cut mine off and found that the piece attached to the A arm still seems like it will contact the lower arm of the spindle and function as a stopper. If you want it is easy enough to leave the steering stop intact and try fitting your parts. If it is in the way, then cut it off.
-Brake lines: I had steel braided hoses on my stock calipers and plan to use them. They seem like they will be long enough. I do not know about the LS1 hoses. You may be the guinea pig on this part of the swap.
-Proportioning valve: I have been beating the drum of adjustable brake bias valves in this post. I think this is a good choice.
-Thread tapping: After I drilled my spindles for the bracket mounting holes, I tapped them with 1/2-13 standard threads. Grade 8 standard thread bolts are MUCH, MUCH easier to find than class 10.9 metric thread bolts (at least in my area). Oh yeah, the 1/2-13 bolt has a 3/4" hex head which incidentally will also fit the 19mm hex head on the bolts to mount the caliper carrier quite nicely. How convenient!

Let the fabrication begin.

BTW, I am from PA. I also had to dig myself out of 8" of snow Saturday...I hate winter.

Chuck

z28cdoyle

Thread tapping: I forgot a few words in that paragraph. I was trying to point out that a 19mm and 3/4" hex head are almost identical in size so a 3/4" or 19mm socket can turn either bolt.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Welcome aboard, John.

Hubs: I usually turn my hubs down to 5.9" and have had no problems. I went a bit bigger than 5.8", a bit more metal around the outside, even a tenth, helps IMO. I have cracked only 2 rotors in the stud hole areas but that makes them useless.

Spindles: I do mine by eye so I don't have any set measurement method...yet. On the next set I do for the LS1s, I will drill and tap the bracket holes first (I tap M12x 1.75mm holes), bolt up the bracket, and THEN make the lower spindle cut pretty much even with the end of the bracket. I still think it will need a little grinding but that's what I'll do. Chuck did some nice clearancing on his brackets and I will need to do the same.

Brackets: I also used Luke's design and had to tweak it up a bit, but I sent him a set I made and he should be making changes to it to match what I did. I drill .500" holes and they fit the bolts I use perfect, M12x 1.75x 30mm (lower). I use a 25mm long bolt on the upper bracket hole.

Like I said, I have yet to fit it up. It's all ready but I'm busy. I will be pulling my C4s off and installing the LS1s on my present spindles. I don't know about the stock LS1 caliper hose question but I'll let you know. I have braided hoses up front now but I'll fit up the stock LS1 hoses to see how they fit as I got a set with my brakes. Like Chuck stated, you don't HAVE to drill and tap Metric holes as standard bolts will be easier to find...to each his own.


Ed

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

These reply's are EXACTLY the reason that I have been using this site for the last 4-5 years................ You guys are great ---- !


I have a complete LS1 set-up that is prepped for installation on my 95Z and I just bought another set of calipers/rotors/lines for $135 delivered. I will be waiting until the second set of LS1 parts arrives so I can see what parts are the best and will use those on my Berlinetta. (only the best stuff for that car !)

My conversion will progress slowly due to my lack of employment, ( or lack of $$$ ) but I will post any updates with relevant information as I come upon any issues I encounter.


Thanx again ------ and again ----- and again !


That sounds like a very good idea Ed. I have seen the pics and it's obvious to me that we would want as much "meat" in that area as possible.


I hear you loud and clear Chuck!! I learned a long time ago to "leave the line" when making cuts !!! You can always cut more - but can't replace what you already cut off !!

P.S. ---- I ended up with 17-19" of snow here in Rhode Island !! Snow drifts were as big as 4-5 feet deep !

BMmonteSS

Ok I need a quick bit of info. Is the thread size of the brake line on the caliper side the same as the stock camaro size? In other words, if I have braided steel lines made for my old brake setup will they bolt up if they are long enough?

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

To answer your question, yes they'll fit. FYI, there's no thread on the caliper end fitting of the line. The banjo bolt just slides through it and compresses the crushwashers to seal the line.


Ed

BMmonteSS

Ok thanks, that's what I wanted to know, I was looking at the an-adapters in a catalog that I have and there are different threads of banjo fittings in it, I just wanted to make sure that they were the same as the 3rd gen's that way I can get the correct adapter.

89 Iroc Z

I have finalized the bracket here, enjoy....

PDF format

Autocad 2002 file

Thanks ed for the set of brackets...

novass

iTrader: (1)

thanks!! :lala:

Does anyone have any idea if these will fit under 16" formula style 2 wheels?

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

I'm in the process of modding another set of spindles for the LS1s at the moment and I have a few more comments to make:

1- The "late" style spindles, the ones with the "raised bosses" around the bracket holes, are THE ones to get. They allow a bit more room for the bracket to fit and almost eliminate the need to grind anything off of either the bracket or the spindle due to interference reasons. Of course, this could also be attributed to the specific bracket I am fitting up, I almost always make them just a bit different. But this style MAY also do away with the spacer washer I needed by getting the bracket off the spindle by that much.

2- I have the idea to tap the lower spindle hole on the bracket instead of the hole in the spindle and feed that bolt in from the back side...3 reasons for this: One- This does away with the need to "shave" a bit off the head of the bolt to get it to clearly fit underneath the caliper carrier. Two- It would allow a smaller bolt to be used and a smaller hole to be drilled, leaving more meat on the spindle for strength. Not too much smaller though, maybe a 7/16" bolt or so. The present 12mm I use is right at .500". Three- It would take stress off of the spindle and let "us" worry less on how much we cut off the ear. Tim (Traxion) mentioned this earlier in the thread, about how close the hole was to the end and how it may be suspect to cracking. I think tapping the bracket will do away with this issue. It's not hard to do, but I'll have to make a new bracket to do it since I drill all my holes prior to cutting the bracket pattern...dammit.


Ed

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Nova, I'm gonna try to borrow a wheel from a local guy and see if it all fits in there...those are the crosslace wheels, right?


Ed

lock

You and everyone else sharing all this info ROCK. This is what makes thirdgen.org the best damn technical car site on the web!

:hail:

lock

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

He he...

Anyhoo, more helpful insight from me:

Cut the damn steering stop off. You CAN mod it a bit and use an Allen head bolt down there, but like Chuck and I noticed, the steering stop doesn't really hit the stop well so it's pretty much useless and gets in the way...saw it off.

Also, you will need to grind the brackets much like Chuck did to get the clearance you'll need for the piston bores.

Ed

novass

iTrader: (1)

Ed here is the picture.

88305tpiT/A

iTrader: (2)

hey guys. I love this thread -- cheap brakes are good.

however, if it wouldent be too much to ask, I wonder if the GTA rims would fit this setup.

The rims above are formula and I think they have more clearance than the GTA cross lace rims.

in another thread I have heard that the gta rims might fit with spacers. and that the inner rim diameter is large enough to accomodate but the caliper contacts the "laces".

if anyone has a set and can fit them I would appriciate it.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Ahhh... those wheels. I'll try those also if I can get hold of one.


88305: I'll be checking out the GTA wheels also, but a spacer should do the trick anyway.


Ed

novass

iTrader: (1)

Unless I missed it in the thread... I see z28cdoyle has the brakes on the car, however, if he is like me its put up for the winter...
Has anybody totaly compleated the LS1 swap and driven on them to compare how much better they are than a properly functioning stock setup!

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

got a little tip for anyone doing this swap. When you go to press in your new longer wheel studs, it would be best to press them before you machine the disc into a hub. I just cracked 2 of my boltholes on 1 hub. The other one is okay but looks like I'll need another used rotor . I'm still working on the engine and I hope to be able to get to the brakes in a few weeks. I doubt I'll be on the road any sooner than january 20th or so. If I do get up and running I'll report anything of interest.

RMK

What studs are you using? Part number?

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

napa 6411581 cross reference to dorman 610-323 which is what z28 doyle said to use. same as stock but longer.

toddlsf

Those are the same lugs that I use. I don't like machining quite so much off of my hubs though. I just machine down the lip so they will fit inside the rotors.

http://82lt1.cz28.com/brakes/page3.html

I think they are a lot stronger and I'm sure they don't weigh that much more.
Todd

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

Well, like a moron I pressed them in a little hard and pop, that was it. The second one went okay but I went alot slower and I lined up the knurling on the new studs with the old indentions in the holes. I'll probably just press the studs in the new rotor before I machine it down this time which will give me more metal to take the stress. I've learned my lesson and hopefully nobody else will make the same mistake

wilyk9

iTrader: (13)

If the hub cracked pressing in the studs, then what about the stresses of driving, cornering, etc....???? Anybody completed this swap and been running on them for any period of time?

wilyk9

iTrader: (13)

If the hub cracked pressing in the studs, then what about the stresses of driving, cornering, etc....???? Anybody completed this swap and been running on them for any period of time?

wilyk9

iTrader: (13)

If the hub cracked pressing in the studs, then what about the stresses of driving, cornering, etc....???? Anybody completed this swap and been running on them for any period of time?

wilyk9

iTrader: (13)

If the hub cracked pressing in the studs, then what about the stresses of driving, cornering, etc....???? Anybody completed this swap and been running on them for any period of time?

z28cdoyle

Some guys had to drill the wheel stud holes in their hubs a little larger to accept the extra length studs. I suspect different brake rotor manufacturers use wheel studs with varying knurl diameters. When I installed my Napa studs I had the drill bit ready to go and found it was smaller than the holes already in the hub. My studs went in very easy with a few taps from a hammer such that I am concerned they may be too loose. I wonder if Slayer's hubs had smaller diameter holes than mine did which caused them to crack when the suds were pressed in.

Novass is right about my car. It is in the garage for the winter. It won't be out until the Pennsylvania road crews stop the "road salt assault". Every day my daily driver corrodes away a little more so the only way to have a decent car here is to park it for the winter.

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

That may be the case but I think what happened was that the first two I pressed bottomed out and I pressed them to hard.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

I've cracked 2 hubs for 2 different reasons. Like Slayer, I pressed one it a bit too hard. The other was when I was installing ARP studs and didn't drill the hole out to the proper size...snap.

I refined how I press them in. I use an old stock stud to press them down with and use a deep well socket around the new stud going in. This helps in that by using the stud, you only press down on the new stud and have no chance of hitting the edge of the hub with the press mechanism. The studs will countersink a bit into the hub and the press CAN hit the edge of the hub before the stud is fully seated, and POW... you cracked it.

The socket allows pressure to be placed only around the area of where the shoulder of the stud will sit when fully pressed in. It concentrates it there, so to speak.

Like Todd mentioned, I turn my hubs down as big as I can and still let them slide into the rotor. In my case that's usually 5.9-5.95". Don't be afraid of the hubs being weak, they'e fine unless you crack one.


Ed

z28cdoyle

I just noticed a slight problem with my LS1 swap. I realized I never turned the wheels to full steering lock after I installed the brakes. When I did, I found that the brake line banjo bolt is hitting the A arm before the steering stop contacts the lower spindle arm. This is a problem, but not that serious. I plan on welding or bolting an extension on the steering stop on the A arm. This will make sure the spindle contacts the steering stop before the banjo bolt hits the A arm. It will also reduce the damage to my brake ducts that occurs when I turn the steering wheel to full lock.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Interesting. I didn't think it would be an issue. What I noticed is that the stop on the A-arm never even contacts the cast "finger" sticking down off the spindle, therefore I cut them off as usual. I should be installing my set next week, on my car or Mark Lock's Z28. I'll get back to you all on this, pics and all.


Ed

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Yep, I've been running the same hubs on my C4 setup for months now and there's no problems. The hubs won't experience the same pressing force during normal use so it's not a factor. Trick is to not crack the hub when pressing the studs in. I go REAL slow.

"Napa 6411581. Cross reference to Dorman 610-323"


Ed

slayer2000

iTrader: (1)

I still think I would have been okay if I had lined up the knurls on the new stud with the old grooves in the hub, but you're right about going slow while pressing.