kaptinkafeen

iTrader: (2)

Hello, I'm in need of info regarding the Players Challenge Camaro's and T.A.'s - All I can find is some general info as outlined in the Camaro White book (p.#115 - 1989 Camaro) are there any records as to how many were produced? I have only come across produciton #'s for '91 - 97 cars. What abou the other years? From what I've been able to research - most of these cars where not available to the public - only "special" customers. Did the cars come with factory installed roll cages? ANy info that can be shared would be greatly appreciated.
This site is great - keep it up!
Thanks, Andrew

scottmoyer

Try doing a search here. Their are a few posts regarding these cars. Good luck. I also think there are a few Players Cars on these boards

iroc22

Mark_ZZ3 is your best bet for info on these cars. If he doesnt see this thread, you could try PM'ing him.

Mark_ZZ3

Howdy,

You can read up on the series at my web site ... there is a few articles:

http://members.shaw.ca/tunedportinjection/

I have compiled ALL the production numbers for each year except 1992 TA's. I just have not found one yet!

The cars were built from 1986-1992.

In 1986, the cars were option code A4Q. The cars were L69HP 5 speed disc brake cars. They were batch ordered by GM and delivered to athird party facility in Ontario where the engine was replaced with a race prepared engine from St. Catherines Engine plant. A roll cage was installed (modeled after the US based firehawk series). A racing seat was installed. And a single side exhaust. The cars were then delivered to the race teams. The 1986 season was only out east.

In 1987 and 1988 the cars were under option code A4U. In 87 and 88 the racing teams could order the cars from a dealer. There was two option code (trim levels) they could order. (X01 or X02). The cars were delivered in street trim and the race teams had to then buy the roll cages and exhuast and install them. A racing seat was optional as long as it met the minimum weight requirement. The roll cages in 1987-up were different in that the 1986 cage was not legal due to a too small of foot print (cage punched through the floor). 1987 was the first year for fuel injection. 1987 was brought in DUAL Exhaust. (more sound for the fans!). 1988 was a special year as all 1988 Players cars were factory delivered with 1LE front brakes!

In 1989-up, the option code was R7U. The only choice was color. GM surveyed the race teams and came up with all the popular options. All R7U cars had power windows, locks, mirrors and 1LE!

In all years, the engines were batch built, dyno tested, and sealed to prevent tampering.

In the early years, teams would pay a $5000 bond to enter the race. All cars had to be licensed, insured and DRIVEN to the track. In 1990-up GM lighted up the rules to reduce costs.

If find a car today, many are still raced. Some are on the street owned by people like me. And some are still out there lost in the public.

Each year GM made about 50-60 Camaros and 20 Trans AM's with the numbers falling off in 1991 since teams could race a 1991 car in 1992 with only purchasing a new engine. In prior years, you had to race the current year car.

I have 1000's of pages of technical notes, news letters, etc. on the series.

IF you would like to know more, let me know.

If you bought a car and would like to know more about it, let me know. I can help you document it. Chances are I might have a picture of it.

If your looking for value of the cars, here is my take:

1989 cars will always fetch the biggest dollars since they were the first of the 1LE cars.
1991 cars will come next only because there was more of them made, easier to find, and they are 1LE.
1992 cars are very rare as few were made. Again 1LE car, low production.
1986 First year car, factory delivered with roll cage, race seat, exhuast and decals!
1988 First car with 1LE brakes
1987 first fuel injected car

1990 - none made. All were 1991 model year. IF you have a 1991, the production numbers span two years. I have the breakdown for each.

Well as you can tell ... I can ramble. Let me know what you would like to know.

Mark.

kaptinkafeen

iTrader: (2)

Wow, some great info here, and especially at the web site - Thanks!
I've seen a few of these cars - 2 -'88, and 2 -'91 in the flesh
I noticed that you mentioned values - I guess this is all based on production #'s - although it is reasonable to include stuff like overall condition but, what about the following: Lets say the car is in good to excellent condition for discussion sake -
1. Providence - does this increase the value at all - especially if it document able? Ron Fellows' car vs. - um, let's say an unknown driver?
2. In '91 - it seems some of the R7U cars never even saw the track - how does this affect the value? Should there be a premium for this as the car never saw action, or the oposite?
3. How important is the 'original drive line' - tranny, engine, rear end? Numbers matching mean much? (We all know what happens to the values for '67-73 cars with #'s matching drivelines.) If so, in your opinion how much of the value is affected - 5% - 10% ect...
Finally, I wasn't sure if I missed it within the website - but what is the deal with colours? - Is it like the Camaro White books suggests - strictly white or black - with cloth interiors - I have come across some ads where the cars are red - supposedly factory paint.
Thanks again for the info,
-Andrew
:burnout

Mark_ZZ3

To answer your questions:

1. Yes a car with race history will be worth more than an unraced car ... excluding a ultra low mile car.

A race car driven by someone famous (IE Ron Fellows, Richard Dean Anderson) is worth more.

2.) Each year, GM made a certain number of spare cars. So yes there were some that were never raced. As to the value, it will depend on it's condition (miles, original parts, etc.). It will not have all the racing parts (IE race prom). As well, an unrace car may have had engine work done on it, hence the "sealed" engine is no longer sealed.

3.) Originally is key for any collector car value. As all player's cars had sealed engines, having the original engine is quite important. A race car may have had a replacement engine (either due to damage or replaced in later year cars). This is still OK, however if you can document that it was replaced, all the better. A replaced motor will not have the car's VIN on it anywhere. Just the engine code.

Colors ... well you could order what ever color you wanted. That was the only choice. White or black were just easier as a base to apply your paint scheme.

What does the Camaro white book say about Player's cars?

A Player's car will have some special factory parts that were delivered on the car. These include (but not limited to):

- Front struts
- rear shocks
- Sealed engines
- low volume power steering pump

The springs are stock parts, but specially selected for the race cars.

Race teams were given:

- Decals (Players, goodyear, Delco, GM Parts, etc.)
- Exhaust systems
- racing PROMS
- Brembo Brakes (1986-1987) (these were the predecessors to 1LE)

Race teams bought:

- Rollcage (excluding 1986) (Can still be order from OEM out East)
- Race seat


Some little know facts.

- 1991/1992 Player's camaros received the 36mm front sway bar.
- 1988 cars had 1LE front brakes but no 1LE option
- 1987 cars had the world class 5speed with lower overdrive (0.74).
- Player's cars all had G92
- Power windows were made standard since you could not roll down a crank window due to the rollcage
- Majority of Canadian 1LE cars were Player's cars
- 1986 L69 cars were a mistake ... ordered as LG4 since they were going to replace them with Race engines. GM in US shipped them as L69. (Perhaps for the dual snorkle Air Cleaners)
- Race Exhaust was for the sound, not the performance
- Cars had to be registered and driven on the street (and was encouraged)
- Later Player's car had brake cooling ducts
- 1989-up Trans Ams were allowed to race with SLP's cool air box
- SLP cold air box "idea" came from Player's Trans Am's "cool Air" setup.
- Close tolerances in Player's manufacturing fed back into regular production to the point that variances between engine dynos were almost nil.
- I could ramble for hours ...

IF your thinking about buying a car, drop me a note. I can help you ID the car and determine it's originality. Chances are I might even know the person who owns it.

Mark.

kaptinkafeen

iTrader: (2)

Mark, here is what the Camaro White Book has to say about the Player’s Cars p# 115,
. Chevrolet also built lLE Camaros for the Canada Motorsports Division Players Challenge Series during this era. All were believed to have RPO LB9 engines. Anecdotal evidence suggests that motors were built in sequence, hand assembled, then specific bolts sealed with yellow paint. A performance chip was provided which could be exchanged later for the OEM chip. Motors were dyno-tested for uniform output. Most cars had either black or white exteriors with custom cloth interiors. The Canadian order code was R7U, but this code was assigned to different content in domestic reports. The quantity of these cars built is not certain.

Besides this, there isn’t much literature about the cars especially the T.A.’s! Looking through the standard catalog of Camaro 1967-2002 and the same title for the Trans AM there isn’t one mention about AU4 or R7U cars!

Thanks for all your info.
I will PM you about the car I’m currently interested in.
-Andrew

IROCNParts

I love reading up on these cars, I have the old #19 car, belonged to cameron hope.

avro206

Not all Players cars had G92.

My 87 didn't but it did have G80 and the 3.45s (forget the rpo for that)

iroc22

This is the first time Ive heard this. I assumed the 86 Players cars had the options divided seperately, but the A4U cars used G92 to trigger those options.

avro206

I'll see if I can fond my list of RPO's I got from the Chevy dealer...

Mark_ZZ3

In 1986, the Player's option code was A4Q. I've documented two 1986 cars (TA and Camaro) and neither had G92. Interesting to note the TA had a borg warner 3.70 rear end and the Camaro had the GM 3.73.

In 1987, I have seen both a G92 and non-G92 car. It appears the early production did not have G92 nor did they have the better T5 tranny. The later cars in 1987 and 1988-up all had G92.

By 1989, the R7U package came out and the cars were equally equipped ... even so much as the Camaro's got the same 36MM front sway bar as the TA's. By 1990, the cars both got the 23mm rear sway bar (to reduce oversteer).

*** just reading my 1990 tech sheets from GM ... a note says "Specal 1989 1LE fuel tank and pickup now standard on all 'F' cars." WOW! Documented proof ... finally ... I need to read more of what I have.

At some point, I will write down all the stuff I've collected ... coming to a book store near you! :-)

Mark.

dsherw00d

Check out http://www.legendarymotorcar.com/ on the bottom of the inventory page. I posted this in another thread, but thought I woudl respond to this. Don't know much about it, stumbled on it when I was checking out LMC.

-Dan

Mark_ZZ3

Hi,

That car has been there for a few years now. Not sure of the history, but obviously it was raced after the Player's Series.

Being a 1988 car, it will have the 1LE front brakes on it from factory.

Mark.

jumpinjoe

And heres mine. MARK_zz3 and soundwave83 both confirmed mine. it was races at mid-ohio by Matt Williams.

'87 IROC VERT

iTrader: (4)

Where were the cars raced, SSCA or something? Does anyone race GM cars anymore now that the F bodies are gone? Although they have a great engine, the GTO seems a but heavy to race, although I suppose anything's possible...

Hylton, where are you?

dsherw00d

Just Vettes. The new Z06 is very light (carbon fiber fenders, etc) and high tech - and fast. Speed Channel had a show on it with Jeff Gordon and Tommy Kendall at Road Atlanta. 500+ HP, 470 LB TQ, around 200Mph top speed (all stock). At 80g with every option, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than anything else in its class.

Ahhhhh......Some Day I hope. Enough Day Dreaming.

-Dan

Mark_ZZ3

The cars were raced in Canada for all but one race in late 1986. The series was called the "Player's Challenge Series" in the early days and "Player's LTD/GM Motorsport series in the later days.

All cars were built specifically for the race under a variety of codes (A4Q ,A4U and R7U) and they were all Canadian cars (with KM/hr speedo).

In 1986-1989, the teams had to buy a new car to race in the current season. In 1990-up, the teams could race an existing car with a new engine and whatever updates tech required.

Most cars ended up back on the street as a street car, but many raced for years after. Some went south to the US as well.

There was 74 R7U's made in 1989, the 74 were part of the 76 1LE's shipped to CAnada that year, and part of the total 111 1LE's made that year.

Mark.

'87 IROC VERT

iTrader: (4)

So, it sounds like this really is a special car.
I think it would be great to follow along the restoration of the car, we could help him source the stuff he needs, too.
I, like many of us, know they joy of bringing a third gen back to life. Even just working on my 'vert and piece by piece restoring everything to good working order is erally fun.
So, jumpinjoe, what's the first order of business with the car?

TJfive0

First off, for the speedo's, does that mean that all the 1LE players cars had KM/hr speedos and not MPH?

I am asking this bc jumpinjoe's 1LE has a MPH speedo with 12,000 original miles.

I am confused, is his speedo stock, or did somebody before him swap the stock one out and put that in?

Not knocking on you jumpinjoe, I am just curious.

TJfive0

How heavy is a GTO, heavier than 3rd gens? And are you talking about the new GTO's? They look kinda small to be all too heavy. But what do I know, oh yeah, nothing!!! lol

'87 IROC VERT

iTrader: (4)

Truth be told, I don't actually know how heavy, and too busy at work to look it up - but I thought the review on the car I read last year was that is was REALLY powerful, but heavy and a bit too luxury for the magazine staffers taste, whatever that means.

I have thought seriously about owning one, my lack of self control (too much motor!) has kept me out of the showroom thus far.

Hylton

Yes, ALL R7U CARS MUST HAVE THE KPH/MPH SPEEDO. This however is no sure sign of the real thing as someone can simply take a US car and put a Canadian speedo in it and give it a paint job. IMHO Joe's car IS a real R7U car but it has lots of tampering issues (speedo BS, VIN tag, basket case).

Finding out if a car is a real Players Challenge car is very easy and nobody here should get scammed seeing that there is so much info available. Here's are the best things to do when looking at a potential Factory Camaro/Firebird race car (yes, some Firebirds were also factory made race cars and are super rare) :

1. Look for the RPO sticker in the car. Sticker MUST have the 1LE, R7U and Z49 options on it.

2. Take a good hard look at the car. Must have all the 1LE parts (aluminium driveshaft, PBR brakes, 4 wheel disk, etc...)

4. Take the VIN number to your local Chevy dealer and ask the parts guy to run the VIN number and verify the 3 key RPO codes.

3. Call George Zappora of Vintage Vehicle Services at GM of Canada with the VIN number. For $45 bucks, he will fax you a letter the same day confirming it is a real R7U car.

R7U cars are relatively easy to find, especially in the Toronto area where most of the race teams lived. Prices are still very, very cheap and as stated in the other thread, 10k USD gets you a decent one. Not mint but running and original with no apparent body damage. I say apparent because if you've ever seen one up close, the bodies are usually wavy like the ocean because of all the track 'bumping'. There are mint ones out there that have no body work and low miles but they were probably spare cars and have no pedegree.

Good Luck!

Hylton

Hylton

No FBodies are being used in any professional racing anywhere at the moment.

'87 IROC VERT

iTrader: (4)

That's too bad. I wonder, beyond the normal speculation, what GM will do to repalce the F body cars. They sold a lot of them over the years, and it's hard to imagine that the corvette will remain the only performance coupe in their lineup. As nice as those various ecotech engines may (?) be, they jsut aren't going to fill the niche that was created by the beloved Camaro's and Firebird's.

85 T/A WS6

The GTO-R runs in The Racers Group camp now, owned by a friend of a friend mine, Kevin Buckler.

Hylton

I recently spoke with Scott Settlemire, the man responsible for the Fbody brand at GM throughout the 1990's. He told me to just get my *** over to the Detroit auto show this January and I will not be dissapointed. He did NOT say anything with regard to what this new product will be but he did say it will be a 2007 RWD, 2 door, 4 seater sports coupe model which will come onto the market next fall. He knows I am into Camaros and said I should be happy with what I will see.

I should also say that GM had bought back the rights to the Camaro name from GM of Canada this summer. They lost it when they closed the Camaro/Firebird plant in St. Therese, Quebec. Part of that deal forbade them to sell a Camaro (unless it was built in Canada) until the 2007 model year.

Coincidence? Not a chance

'87 IROC VERT

iTrader: (4)

Wow, that would be nice. I would love to have a new one if it were a nice enough car - but I would still keep my 3rd gen!

TJfive0

Hylton, you are extremely informative and helpful. Glad to know those points on players cars. It would be pretty cool to own one of those someday. I will have to look into those.

As for that 2007 RWD, 2 door sports coupe, that sounds very exciting. I might have to swing out to that Detroit auto show this Jan.

I wonder what type of car it will be!?!?!?

Hylton

Boston Rob,

Time to unload the Ferrari and get in line.........

Hylton

I'm defintely going!

Hylton

Mark,

You have 2 seriously rare cars. Anyone who wants to know more about these R7U cars, please check out Mark's website:

http://members.shaw.ca/tunedportinjection/

Hylton

jumpinjoe

TJ, no offense taken. The dealer i bought it from mis-represented it to me as act Miles. I am assuming that Matt Williams did the swap on the dash. He raced the car here in the states, at the Mid-Ohio race track, so he probably swaped it for a mph speedo.

and 87 vert, My buddy isn't leaving his shop til jan so i'm looking for a place to finish dissasembling the car. My question is, do I really need to take out the cage just to take out the back seat uppers? This will determine if i take out the carpet or not. its in generally good shape but i might want new carpet regardless if i have to take out the cage.

'87 IROC VERT

iTrader: (4)

Hylton, The Ferrari is going bye bye this winter... spring at the latest. A new Camaro will be in my future if they make it, and I WILL get in line!

Hylton

......and stop spending all that Survivor money you and Amber won!

TJfive0

I hear ya on the speedo, but it is still a sweet car, that is for sure!!!

All this talk about 1LE's and players cars is making me want one, which isn't too kind to my lack of money.

'87 IROC VERT

iTrader: (4)

......and stop spending all that Survivor money you and Amber won!

___________________________________________________

Who is Amber? I don't watch that show, looks too stupid... I am, however, guilty of watching Overhaulin', Pimp my Ride (okay, kinda lame, but still about cars...), and other car shows...

IROCNParts

theres some more info @
www.vancouverfbody.com
we have 2 forums specifically for players cars.. one is for the ones for sale, one is for general info.. feel free to check it out and learn some neat stuff! Mark has CRAZY amounts of info

Mark_ZZ3

Thanks ... they are neat cars (in my opinion). Not a COPO yet, but perhaps some day they will be viewed similarily.

I'm in the process of writing a book on the series/cars/etc. So you will be able to read up about the cars, tech specs, rare photos, production numbers, etc.

It's taken me a few years to collect all the info, but it is coming. I filled up my web page years back and have not posted stuff since.

If you want to buy an investiment, IMO, the 1989 cars will be the most collectable since they were the first year of 1LE, and the bulk were R7U cars. A factory built race car that inspired the 1LE package.

My personal favorite is a 1986 car. First year. Carb'd engines. L69 (unavailable from factory ... in the books that is), rollcage and exhuast installed, etc. Just neat cars. The absolute beginnings of the 1LE history.

Mark.

Mark_ZZ3

Here are my two cars ... back in the day:

1988 Trans Am.



1987 Trans AM:

In 1987
This is the only picture I have of the car in 1987. The driver/car placed 14th overall in 1987. The driver use to race in 1969 and 1970 in the original Trans Am racing series.


Mark.

Hylton

Wow! Simply wow!

Mark_ZZ3

Both my cars are Eastern Series cars that made their way out West. Very odd to find both ... and not rusted all the heck.

Neat thing is ... you can still order a roll cage from the company thta made them for these cars ... they still have the jig! Talk about OEM parts.

The plans are to put them back to the way they were as in these pictures.

Mark.

'87 IROC VERT

iTrader: (4)

Nice photos...

85z28guy

That car at LMC is for sale for 10 g's. I was so close to getting a players car I could taste it! If I ever win the lottery, I'm tracking down the best one I can find and offering the guy 100 grand

TJfive0

I would just offer him a Toyota Echo!!! lol

'87 IROC VERT

iTrader: (4)

Oh yeah, an Echo - man, those things really rip!

TJfive0

I knew I could draw a response from you!!

jumpinjoe

like 'to rip a fart'?

IROCNParts

heres a pic of my #1 car raced my rob fellows back in 1992
action shots are awesome. This car is currently being repainted, I ordered all the original decals from the company that originally produced them! prettyy sweet!

iroc22

Great pic.