First of all I am not trying to start 2nd gen / 3rd gen war nor do I want to be flamed for this thread. But I have come to a point where I am contemplating replacing my 84’ Z28 HO with a late 2nd gen T/A (77-81) . The thing is I have had my Z28 since 1989. Now it’s showing its age and I am wondering if I should finish restoring it or switch my time and money on something different. Most of my work so far has been on the engine. A strong rebuilt 350 4bolt, Hypertectic pistons, AFR 190cc heads, roller cam/rockers/lifters all from Comp Cams. Holley 650 dbl, RPM intake, Headers, 3 inch pipe with Flows. 125hp NOS, Centerforce clutch, WC T5 spd. New AC.... Well you get the picture. Most of my focus was all on the Engine. I still need to repaint the car, install 92 ground effects (which I already have), fix the rusted and leaking T-Tops and redo the carpet and seats. And many little small extras.

The thing is that I just love the look of the 2nd gen T/A. I always have. I also like the look of the Z28 but I’ve had it for 16 years. I am considering swapping the engine from my Z28 into the 2nd gen T/A. It seems as if the value of the 2nd gen is going up which would be an indication of how much people desire them. On the other hand I don’t see the value of our 3rd gen going up. And I don’t know if they would.

Since the death of the 4 gen Fbodies, does anyone here believe that the 3rd gens will eventually go up in value?

What Pros and cons would you list between 3rd gen and 2nd gens?

Now for a dig deep into you soul question... If you had to do it all over again knowing what you know now, would you do spend your time and money on a 3gen or a 2 gen?

 

Third Gens are better cars in nearly every way. They are faster stock, lighter, not so big, handle better, brake better, are more efficient, (being stock again) more aerodynamic, look better, etc. Third Gens have been increasing and will increase in value but it's the stock top model cars that are doing it right now. Some mint high model IROC-Z's and Z28's already go for more than mid/later 2nd Gens and early/mid 4th Gens do in similar condition. It will be a long time before really modded cars will be worth much though.

The suspension, weight, aerodynamics, and being newer would probably be enough to make most go with a Third over a 2nd for going fast and all-around upgrades, but you just gotta pick which you really want more.

 

3rd Gen Pros:
Cool Looks
Handle better
Better suspension.
Overdrive tranny.
Easy to install 350-400 SBC.
Many cheap parts at junk yard.

3rd Gen cons:
Hard to fit full length headers.
Hard to intsall true dual exhaust
Weak rear Diff
Lowering resale value
Hard to install Chevy Big block

2nd Gen Pros
Cool Looks also
Easy to install full length headers
Easy to install true dual exhaust
Easy to install big block chevy or small block chevy souped up.
Stronger rear diff
Can always install 700r4 tranny
Increasing resale value

2nd gen cons.
Usually need lots more restoring (i.e. more rust).
403 olds 400 poncho hard to find performance parts.
403 olds / 301 & 400 poncho low performance.
Trany with no overdrive.
Parts are getting hard to find at junk yards.

 

Hmmm... I see what you mean for an IROC or GTA in mint condition. An 84 Z28HO, however, with all its stock 305 ripped out with a modded 350 in its place doesn't seem to be as valuable though. But I'll tell you what... That 350 is alot more fun than my old 305

....

 

I love my thirdgen Iroc and would not trade it or sell it but...
Say something awful happened and it got totaled no way would I buy another one. If your not attached to your car like I am sell it.
I wanted to buy a 2nd gen and looked for almost a year and thats when I found my GTO Judge but as soon as it is finished I'm going back on the hunt for a secondgen.

 

Why not both? I've got a 78 TA and a 91! I love both of them. (I get more looks, comments, thumbs ect. in the 78)

 

REally in many ways a third gen has an advantage at this point in time.

1) 3rd gens are plentiful in junkyards today, like 2nd gens were 10 years ago.

2) a third gen will be cheeper to make pristine today, and if you dont drive it a whole lot it should last.

3) 2nd gens seem to be more prone to rusting than 3rd gens. Granted there are alot of rusty 3rd gens but the 2nd gen did not seem to hold up as well.

4) If your worried about re-sale value then you got what you need. Right now 2nd gens are going up in value, while 3rd gens have not yet come into their prime. Where you can get a perfect 2nd gen for about what they were new, A 3rd gen is just now starting to rebound.

At this point a 2nd Gen is appreciating, the long term payout will not be as great because much of the appreciation is starting to happen, the 3rd gen is on its heels.

John

 

Tough question.. I think you should go with what you like best.. As an investment, the 2nd gen would probably be a bit better.. Clean 2nd Gens are starting to appreciate now.

I got a Third Gen because I liked the look. I think they look a lot better than Second Gens. They're lower and sleeker. But again that's just a personal thing.

I've got a buddy with a MINT black 1977 Bandit T/A.. (60,000 original miles). We're in a local Pontiac club and we show our cars side by side quite often.. His car gets a lot more ooohs and aaaahs than mine, but I still like my 90 GTA better

Here's a shot of our cars from a show a couple of years back...

 

Ten or 15 years ago the same thing was happening to the 2nd gen. The 1st gens were getting all the attention.

Its just a matter of time.

 

Thanks for the feedback. And yeah, I guess it really depends on personal taste. Both 3 gen and 2 gens look great but have distinct styles. What I like about 3rd gens is their more modern aerodynamic look. And 2 gens seem to have a more nostalgic muscle car look. I just wonder the if 3rd gens would suffer the same fate as the mid 80's corvette. Don't mean to offend any corvette owners, but for some unknown reason, mid 80's corvette seen to be the least desirable corvette.

Hmmm… The things I would to If got a 79 T/A. But at the same time I would hate to let go of my 84 Z28. I could not possibly keep both. I already 94 T/A and an '02 Dodge Ram Quadcab. Four cars would be just too much.

BTW GTA Jim, your buddies 77 looks slick and from what I can tell from the back, yours looks good also…

 

You see... now that what I would hope for to help me decide on keeping my 84. But only time will tell...

 

Bowtie,

You have the same dilemma I face. I've owned my '85 T/A since '85, when I bought it new. My car is mint and MIGHT bring 7K; a clapped out 2nd gen goes for well over that in some parts. Recently, my dad offered me his '79 T/A for what he bought it for 20 years ago - $3500. Sometimes I kick myself for not having bought it, but I just don't have the room for two toys. Side by side, the thirdgen's a better car, but those 2nd gens are so cool.

I had a '79 Z28 before the T/A, and it was nothing but trouble. Knowing how rusted that thing was after only 4 years, I can only imagine how many halfast "restos" have been performed on them by now.

Surely the thirdgens are a better car. I am convinced they will be worth more than most second gens 10 years from now (even first gens are losing popularity as of late).

 

Both!
Well, that depends. Assuming stock:
The 3rd gen will ride rougher and handle better most generally.
3rd gens, even really nice ones go largely un-noticed right now. My 2nd gen gets tons of looks and interest compared to my 3rd. However females really seem to like 3rd gens.
Comes down to personal taste, I guess. Either one can be fun. Like mentioned above, the older the car, the greater the chance for rust. And also mentioned, if you go Pontiac then you will spend more on 2nd gen parts since the 455, 400, 301 are not real easy to get parts for and cost more than the equivolent CHevy. 403s are more plentiful but not desired.

I love my 3rd gen but when it comes down to the fun factor, my 2nd gen is the most fun to drive. With Shaker shaking, cam rocking the car, CB squawking, and tons of torque on demand -it's a blast!

 

hey bowtie. i too love the 2nd gen's but the earlier 70-73 camaros. i had three 3rd gens through high school than i bought a 91 rs after school in 93. sold it off in 99 and i am right back where i started bybuying a 86 roc. alot has changed since high school and i can afford to do the camaro the way i want to now. before buying my thirdgen i have noticed that people in my aera are asking more money for there third gens now than before and 2nd gens are becomming even more expensive nowadays. i say if you can get a 2nd gen for a good price than do it. i would also try and keep the thirdgen too but thats just me. the only reason i didnt get a2nd gen this time around is because i thought it would of been a sin to see a car like that sitting outside since i dont have a garage to put it in so as soon as i get a house with a garage you know what will be in there

 

I love those T/A with the big birds on the hood.

 

The biggest difference between 2nd and 3rd gens is that 2nd gen Birds run pontiac engines. If you get a 2nd gen Bird or T/A I would keep it Pontiac. You can find parts for 400s or 455s, even if they're not as common as Chevy parts. Although I like my 83 TA I think it's knda lame that it's got a Chevy 305 in it. I don't mean to offend Chevy guys but I think there is something special about older GM cars where each division made their engines. I'm not going to say whether to go with your Camaro or a 2nd gen Bird but if you can, you should keep a Pontiac a Pontiac.

 

Go for a 1979 Trans AM with a 403 olds " My Dream Car"

I just built a 455 for my 68 Firebird and there are aftermarket enigne parts out there just not as much as chevy or ford but you can make a pontiac enigne haul i love doing 1 block burnouts on my 14 inch rims and old tires.

 

I'd say that if you want a 2nd gen bad enough get it now while the prices are still reasonable.I've noticed that the late 2ndgens are starting to get up there in price.I myself am looking for either a 70-73 or 79-81 Z28 and been noticing the climb in prices for those years.Be very careful when searching for 2ndgens because not only the bodies are very prone to rusting(especially in the snow driven northern/sea aired coastal parts of some states) but also their subframes are prone to rust too.

 

My guess would be because they were the weakest/slowest Corvettes ever made besides the C1s.

And some people believe that they are the ugliest ones ever made, but I personally disagree.

 

As long as you avoid the Crossfire Vette (a one year only issue) the C4s are a much better platform than mid to late C3s. Everybody on this board must appreciate the availability of performance parts for the TPI SBC. In the chassis/ suspension department, the C4 dates back to 84 as opposed to 68 for the C3. Much better choices for wheels and brakes for the C4.

Gotta admit though that I love the swoopy front fenders on the C3.

 

Oh yeah! The curves on the C3 are sexy. But just as you said, the C4 has a better platform than a C3. Overdive, TPI (that could be swapped for LT1 intake), probably handle better.

This is the same reason why I am trying to figure out if I want to get the 2nd gen fbody for the looks or keep my 3 gen because it is a better car.

Hmm.. i wonder what it would take to make a 79 trans am handle just as good as a 3rd gen. Putting a 700R4 along with my rebuild 350 from the 84' Z28 should be easy. But also I have to deal with the age factor also. Ahhh....

 

Invest in stocks and bonds.They can't get totalled by some moron that shouldn't be driving. Drive what you enjoy. I wanted a Camaro for 23 years. I couldn't afford a 1st or 2nd gen and I wouldn't want to take it out unless it was perfect anyway.

 

Think about this. As people get further beyond high school and college, They have more disposable income and they tend to buy the cars that were popularwhen they were a kid. Then you have the people whose parents bought them those cars DURING high school. Anyway, the popularity of a certain car probably goes up when it's 10 - 15 years old. Also, timing of wear and tear and decent quality of that model make it an affordable platform to rebuild at that age.Hope that made sense.

 

I'm not so sure 3rd-gens are better cars. Maybe the 90-92s. I've ripped apart 2nd and 3rd gens and the engineering and quality in a 2nd gen is far better than a 3rd-gen. The factories were pumping out so many 2nd gens from 79-81 so its kind of hit and miss on quality there. Norwood cars are generally better.

The 2nd-gen was designed when car guys ran Detroit and they put a lot of thought in the design. Pontiac had a much greater involvement on the design which explains for better engineering. The rear leaf springs on the 2nd gen are somewhat of a short coming but doesn't present much of a problem.

The 3rd-gen was designed when Detroit was saying "how cheap can we make it?" I can't believe how thin metal was used in 3rd-gens. No wonder the bodies flex so much.

If you put solid body mounts, sub-frame connectors and braces from the A-arm to the firewall you'll be surprised how a 2nd-gen will handle. My dad's '78 WS6 Trans Am out handles most 3rd and 4th-gens and has left some later-gen owners VERY surprised! 1960's technology isn't so bad after all .........

Can't beat a REAL Pontiac powered Pontiac either. GOT TORQUE?

 

You can usually make anything handle or perform good if you throw money and work at it, but a Third Gen will handle better mod for mod everytime. They also have a nice weight and aerodynamic advantage. 2nd Gens were a little more structurally rigid, but when they were designed handling wasn't the priority it was in the Third Gen and especially to the Camaro, which focused more on sharpness than ride quality. They allowed there to be flex also, thinking after the later 70's/early 80's (also the lousiest time for quality, especially the later 70's which were unbelieveably lousy sometimes) that there would also never be any kind of real power back again. Well, after the Thirds came out, everything started getting better and power was allowed again. It started out slow, but then comes the 190HP H.O. cars, then the mid-later 80's which all of a sudden brought over 200HP fuel efficient EFI/TPI 305's that could make alot of 70's cars with bigger engines look slow, and a returning 350 (which no one ever expected to happen) that turned it up again with enough HP (225-245) and TQ (330-345) to twist stock T-Top cars and put little cracks over the windows of hardtop cars if you raced alot or liked to drive crazy enough.

Being designed in the later 60's/early 70's, 2nd Gens were made to be able to handle good amounts of power by design, but you can make a Third as strong or stronger with the right stuff. Third Gens are still a better platform for performance overall and the mid/later Thirds are better quality cars than the mid/later 70's cars. Advancements and technonlogy often do that but I feel that each Gen has their own advantages and disadvantages. If you have the money though, and you will sometimes need a good amount for those way back cars, you can usually get what you want out of them with the right amount of work. It's really what you want the most and how much you want to spend.

 

lol... my car has those lil cracks on both sides hehhehheh

 

I went from a POS 88 IROC 9money pit) too a 74 Formula 400. It was riught for me. Only thing about the 3rd gen I liked better was then interior.

A 2nd gen Firebird with a Pontiac engine is far more unique then most 3rd gens. (save TTA/Firehawks) I never see the same car I bought in my city/province.

Plus the dash doesn't move up and down

I am not anti-third gen though. I still miss my R7U 87 IROC-Z.

Dynamically the 3rd gens are a better performer in most ways. I feel the stucture is not as strong though. They should have used subframe bushings.

If you go with the 2nd gen, just be perpared for terrible fuel economy and that tank takes alot of gas to fill.

 

AND YOU DONT HAVE TO SMOG THE 2ND GEN!

 

Says who? 1967 and newer need ot go through emissions out here in AZ.

 

I'd have to say, have both.

I have since 1988, and can't see myself without either one.



The white one is a 1979 w/403.

See more of it here:http://firebirdnation.com/index.php?showtopic=3292

http://firebirdnation.com/forums/ind...showtopic=3292

Leon.

 

If you ever sell it let me know we used to have one when i was younger but it was sold that is my dream car and i would love to own one.

 

Im 19 now, so by the time I turn 30 or so... My Car will be envied upon?

 

Only the finest will survive, you can still buy a 67 Camaro for $2500 if you look for one. Its a POS mind you but a pristine condition one goes for 15-20K, Considering the cars NEW were about $2500 its not too bad. The same will happen with our cars, its just time.

John