Its not worthless, like you said it will have value. but it weeds out ALOT of potential buyers.

IMO it does affect price in a significant way. Should the buyer want to resale his market is extremely limited. There are very few "collectors" that view any thrid gen as collectable and even fewer that want to spend $$$ (or even have $$$$) for a car they can't drive and enjoy.

Maaaaaybe GM is doing things this way so the car will have a better chance of staying off of the road (which means it would stay n better shape).... soooooo it would retain its coolness and maybe they could someday have it back in their collection...
Ya it is kind of stupid to title it that way but they dont need anything coming back and biting them in the azz, esp right now...
there are ways around a junk title but you dont want or need to get caught..

Here is everything I know about the car.

A long time ago, in a parking lot in Pontiac, MI (I do not know what year, it had to be in the mid to late 90's, I did not ask.) Jim was working with Pontiac, even though he was an outsider, they allowed him to work on the premises of a 1 square mile complex. One day he was driving around the compound and spotted this older Yellow Firebird sitting by itself.

Jim stopped, walked around the car, and noticed that it was pretty bare bones, looked at the VIN, noticed that it was #1. He thought to himself, "no-way, this could not be one of those special cars..." So he opened the door (it was unlocked) popped the hood, and lo and behold it was a 1LE, it had all of the "Pencil reinforcements" Looked at the car closer and sure enough it said 1LE. The car had a dented front LH fender, but otherwise was fine.

Jim went to talk to Tom Goad (sp?) who ran compound about the car and Tom told him that it came down the day before, or a few days earlier that every non current model year car that was not under a roof was to be scrapped. The car had been lost in inventory, so Jim made a deal with Tom to take the car and put it into his personal collection until everything passed. And Jim said he would fix the damage on the car. Tom gave Jim the proper information to take the car and Jim took the car to store it.

After a few months passed, Jim had the car fixed, brought the car back to the compound and drove the car into the check-in at the garage. The manager told Jim that there was no information on the car and to get it out of there. Jim basically said, it is not my car, it is your car, left the keys in the ignition and left. They obviously managed to get the car back into inventory.

---------------------------------------

1) it is not BJ that did this it was GM. Make no mistake

2) Ultimately, I have to ask anyone that would be interested in a car like this. You drop thousands of dollars on a car, to what end? What are you going to do with it? I can understand if you have a small museum and want to store it for all eternity, never to be driven. But the car is not much better than a full scale model with a title like this. I know there have been serious collectors (Jim M) that have immediately upon learning that decided that it was not worth it. I consider myself a collector, I really do not invest into this kind of toy, but even if the car was offered to me for $5K I probably would not take it. I would personally consider using it for a parts car at this point. I have to ask myself, what would I do with it? Would I show all my friends and ask, "Do you want to see my really cool car that I can not drive, can not title, basically do nothing with?" The car is a waste, in my opinion.

Even if the car had a clean title, I am not saying I would drive it on a daily basis, but I certainly would like the opportunity to take it around the block at least one time a year.

3) The purpose of the "Junk title" I believe is due to the fact that the car is not a current MY car, nor would it meet any current regulations. Moreover the car was intended for racing, with a Legit VIN or not. GM cannot sell it as new nor can they sell it as used because it was never titled. The car was never salvaged, so they cannot issue a salvage or rebuilt title. The only course they can take is offer it as Junk.

I guess the statement "One man's junk, is another mans treasure." literally applies here.

John

This car is in no way worthless. I bet it brings 30-40K, if not more. A true collecter will buy it and store in a private collection. GM wants this car to remain a part of history. Not become history, by some yahoo that wants to use it as a daily driver. This car is PRICELESS !!!! If I had alot of extra cash I would buy it and put it in my 3rd gen stable .

Very interesting post!!

I just take some small exception to:


Intended for racing? Lots of 1LE cars were never raced. Lets not pretend its some race car that cannot be street driven. It has VIN and was produced for regular production and sale to the pubic for use on public roads.

I'd buy it and fake the title--in Canada I bet I could get away with it!

John, I am absolutely blown away! I certainly hope that you are kidding about parting it out! WTF?

Do you really feel that bc the state says you cannot drive it on the street, that that will stop you from driving it? How much would you plan to drive it? You can EASILY get away with 1000 miles a year and NEVER get pulled over or bothered about it!

My GTA has IL manufacturer plates from 1991, these are in no way legal or registered to anything, they are a pure novelty, In the 100 miles I have out on the car, I have never been given any problems once I explain that the car is a show car and show them the actual plate registered to the car. I have been stopped at a police checkpoint and had no problems. So are you telling me that if the gov't says you can't drive that means you absolutely won't?

Man I hope everyone feel this way about the value of the car, cause then I will buy it!

Greg, I understand your point and not trying to argue with it, but John, part it?

If the car draws 30K, is kept in a proper state in a proper collection, then 10 yrs later it crossed BJ again, and by that time 3rd Gens are starting to be collector items, this car will double in price, not counting inflation. I personally would not have any hesitation to spend 30 on this car right now, if finances weren't as tight as they are right now. But if the interest is this low for this car, then I may just "break the piggy bank" like Greg said.

If the car has a junk title, that usually means that whoever buys it is "supposed" to junk the car out, pretty much almost like a certificate of destruction.

No, I would not drive a car even 1000 miles a year, you can't get tags on the car with a junk title, and alot of insurance companies won't insure a car that is not titled. If you got out and hit someone, injured someone or worse, you would probably end up at a financial end to your life driving an unregistered, uninsured car.

I again, agree with John, not drive as a daily driver, but would want to take it out once in a while, drive it to a car show if I want to. Any car that I can't take out on a nice day and drive is worthless imho.

Just got off the phone w/ BJ and couldn't get a straight answer.

They kept telling me the title information "is in the description." Finally, we read the description together and I still couldn't get an answer. The guy I spoke with stated several of the GM cars in Scottsdale did come with a scrap title but he also said there were a few that came with salvage titles. He said there were absolutely no clean titles for the GM cars (unless it was the 2010 Camaro, etc.)

And to make things better we may not know until the owner gets the title AFTER the auction is over. And no one could give me a contact at GM to call either.

They also confirmed our discussion that it's next to impossible to get a "scrap title" vehicle on the road.

My $0.02 worth for the day.

If you can't get it registered no way would i drive it on the open road. If anything were to happen you would be opening yourself up to serious problems. Really what were saying here is it is a trailer queen or a museum piece....For a collector thats ok.

There are some things that needs to be understood.
1) You get a legitimate Title
2) You would not be able to register it to be driven.
3) If you get caught you run the risk of the car impounded and NEVER EVER returned, the car is then Crushed.
4) You can insure anything, you can insure Jennifer Aniston's butt for crying out loud, it has NOTHING to do with insurance.
5) I am personally not willing to drop more than $2K on any car that I could get taken away from me because It is not registrable, therefore not drivable. You might as well take it to your local drag strip, or roun-d-roun and beat the crap out of it. ( I am not saying I would )
6) Part it out? why not, for the right price I would part out my car. But that is how I feel. I want something I can use, not something I can show off. I bought my 1989 Formula Convertible with 35K miles, I have not gone over 37K yet, I think I only put 200 miles on it last year.
7) Some states are harder than others, they will still ticket you for not having the correct tags on the car..

I just feel that a car that you cannot drive is kind of like buying a ship in a bottle kit when you have Parkinson's Disease, it does not make sense. (please understand this is not to bash someone with Parkinson's, my grandfather had it and I probably will too)



John

Some states allow you to register a car with a junk or salvage title, some don't. It would depend on the state the buyer of the car lives in. GM does this because they don't want to honor the new car warrenty. Plain and simple folks.

You could drive it with dealer plates on it.. I hav done it.. may or may not be legal but it would work. plus I live in a small town soooo its way easier to get away with that..
I think the time limit on the warranty is prolly over by now.. haha

I'd just put a different VIN on screw the "man" and his stupid laws

I'm not convinced on that one topic. I did some brief searching lastnight, and according to Iowa's department, if a vehicle is 25 years old or older, and has a "junk certificate" (same as junk title?), it can be registered with plates through an involved process.

I'll admit this is not my strong point here. But it sounds to me that the vehicle is not a loss. I cannot see why this car cannot be legally driven - atleast on it's 25th birthday here in Iowa.

If you have access to dealer plates, then you can pretty much put them on anything, legally (Don't ask me how I know). I would be worried about the insurance issues when doing that though.

Technically the warenty would still be valid as a new car if they didn't issue it with a junk title.

I know in Tn you can get tags if it has a salvage title (they consider it a rebuilt title), but usually a junk title car usually also has a certificate of destruction which you cannot get tags for and the car is supposed to be destroyed. And the warranty would have been long gone (generally 3 years or 36,000 miles whichever comes first)

Any car in any state with a "junk" title can be put on the road, First the car must meet all safety and emissions regulations, after this rigorous inspection (and it is rigorous) the car will then be issued a "salvaged" title. A salvaged title is just that, it means the vehicle was "junk" but was "salvaged" and is now fit for road use. Look folks I live in NY and aside from Cali's emissions laws we have the strictest auto regs in the nation and it's done here all the time.

All I am doing is repeating what Jim Mattison informed me of. I consider him MUCH more of an expert than myself, nor most anyone on the topic. he is not infallible, but I consider him to be a trustworthy source of information when it comes to historic vehicles...

Considering this and he WAS interested in the car up to this point, leads me to believe there is more to this than meets the eye...

In the end, Buyer beware.

John

Jim also just bought a 1969 ZL1 Camaro and had to cash in all the chips (so to speak) so his car buying days are very limited for the time being.

I also spent some time at the tag agency this afternoon (go figure.) In OK, as with most states, you can NEVER tag a Scrap Title vehicle to be road worthy.....unless the person (or Corporation in this case) who issued the scrap title will sign an affidavit stating they should not have issued a Scrap Title for some specific reason. The people I've chatted with after recieving this info state GM will never go back on a scrap title once it's issued.

For me, If I had insurance on the car and a letter from Jim (PHS) I'd probably drive the car on the street (on a limited basis.) Of course I wouldn't be doing stupid stuff. Figure I could talk my way out of the situation if I had all the documentation in the car AND I had insurance. However, John's correct....if they want to crush the vehicle they could.

Question is...how much $$$$ is a guy willing to risk for such a ride? ....deep thoughts by Jack Handy.

As I told you on the phone the other day Greg, IF IF IF I won the lotto , Id risk a bunch on it, just because I dig that car !!

It looks just like your other one.

BTW Tony, I am Green with envy over your Yellow 92...

JOhn

Thanx John, Im the same way about your cars 2 !!!
BTW Im soooo stoked about the 92 also !!!! Its a dream come true in the best way!!!

Greg does have a point, if you get lucky you can talk your way out of a situation but yes I'll admit that does not solve all the logistical problems with driving it.

Tony, any new pics?

nothing yet... Ive been working on garage.. Im hoping to have some of the clutch R&R soon..

Hey Bruce! Great chatting with you yesterday.

Good luck with the car!

Greg

I've gotten "junk" titled cars registered and legit here in CA. It's called a salvaged title or am I missing something?

I dont get it either.......Wouldnt a safety inspection, by someone certified, be all that you would need to register it?

There's a difference between a junk title and a salvaged title. Generally a salvaged or rebuilt title comes from a car that was totalled. A junk title generally has a certificate of destruction to destroy the car or part it out.

Junk Title is different than a Salvage title

Here are the types of titles that I know about

Clear Title - As it states, there is no known problems
Salvage title - Can be registered, repaired and driven. Can get this from a myriad of methods. Typically it was in an accident where the insurance payoff exceeded the estimated value once it would have been fixed. Another way to get a Salvage title is a Theft, the car was paid off and then found after the payout. The ins company will then Salvage the car. Some states will actually issue a Salvage title if the car cannot leave an accident scene under its own power, Even Flat tires, etc could potentially cause this.
Rebuilt Title - When a car is put back together from a Salvage State. Would need an inspection to be road worthy.
Junk Title, Parts Title - These cars cannot be driven, nor registered as drivable for any reason to the best of my knowledge. Just as the title states, the car is JUNK!

John

But after doing research on Iowa's DOT website, it specifically mentions that you may be able to register a car that has a "junk certificate" - if it's 25 years old and you go through some steps and it's in Iowa, of course.

http://www.iowadot.gov/MVD/ovs/bonded.htm
Your mileage likely will vary by state. When I randomly checked a few other states, some of them did specifically state that a junk certificate is "permanent".

So, if I'm reading this correctly, this car can be legally registered and driven in Iowa when it turns 25 years old after certain steps are taken. And I have to wonder, if it can be registered and driven in Iowa at that age and point, it probably could then be transferred out to a state where it likely could not previously been registered?

Every state has there own rules. So you would need to check the laws in your own state.

JT,
Just curious if the Iowa law that allows you to drive a junk title after 25 years changes the title to a Rebuilt title or is it just a provision that allows older cars with Junk/Parts only titles to be driven if deemed road worthy. If the title was changed at the 25 year mark to something like a Rebuilt title it would make the resale of the car a lot easier by increasing the number of people who might be interested in the car.

All,
I also think whoever buys the car will find a way to drive it if they so desire. Not sure that they will find a legal way to drive it but it could be driven non the less. I have very serious doubts that someone will spend the kind of money this car will bring to "Drive the Wheels Off It". We could debate forever if some mileage is better than no mileage or vise versa for the value of the car. I probably fall on the side of if I bought it I would want to drive it even if it just around the block a few time.

Just my 2 cents worth

Jason

It's lot #11 right? The early cars tend to go pretty cheap. But you never know. There might be 2 people bidding on it that really want the car. But if your the only one who wants it, then I think you might be able to get it pretty cheap.

Yes it can be done. but in IL its called title washing and thats a huge. no no

Yeah but here in IL, title washing is the least of our state's legal concerns!!!!!!!!!

Yeah it is lot 11, on Apr 9th. I think there prolly will be 2 people going back and forth on it for a while.

Does anyone know if the car will be shown on TV?

random chance. Seemed last time a bit over half the Firebirds were on commericals!

There might be a few cars that are planned for TV but I bet this isn't one of them.

All I have to say is GOOD LUCK!, at this point I think it would be a REALLY hard sell to my wife to buy a car that I know I could not legally drive... Keep in mind I live in MI, so the Junk Title would be permanent to the best of my knowledge.

I can hear the conversation... "Sure honey go and drive the car, it is a lot of fun... Oh yeah, don't get pulled over, as they will take the car, and my heart will be broken for all eternity as they crush the car... No pressure tho"

John

Prob not. It's lot #11. Coverage starts at 12 noon. I'm sure they will go through that before noon.

Its easier to ask for forgivness than permission

Yep

If you guys had the choice between the 92 1LE with clean title or a 91-92 firehawk what would you guys take?

I'll have to go with the Hawk but not before thinking about it for while.

Damn that 92 is beautiful though.

I would take the Hawk, but then again we know all the hawk's had clean titles as well. Now if it was a pick between a '92 1LE with a clean title and this car, I would get the 1LE.

I'd have to take the Firehawk. I love yellow---but I love speed more.

Or...hmm...I would add the SLP package to the 92.....(well what I could find anyways)

tough choice...

I must admit, Why would anyone pick a 1LE over a Firehawk??? Especially considering almost all of them except for #1 and the colored cars have the 1LE option IIRC. The cars that did not have the 1LE got the 1LE equipment, or better Brembo Brakes...

So I have to ask, Why would anyone pick the 1LE over a Firehawk??? Is it purely the color of the car?

John

I was personaly asking about the 92 1LE in topic not just any 1LE.

My choice would also be the firehawk but a GM only owned yellow 1LE in pristine shape like the one being discussed is pretty darn tempting.

On the one hand I see your point. I like yellow too...

From another point of view GM owned all of our cars at one point. I think that is the biggest problem with the car is it no longer meets EPA standards, nor crash standards of TODAY. Even though it is not technically a NEW car, it has never been registered privately, or at all. Therefore they have no other recourse but the junk the car if they want to sell it.

John

Buuuuuut it was manufactured in late 91 early 92, therefore shouldnt it have to meet those standards only?
I have seen dealers sell cars that are 10-20 plus years old that they have had in their private collections. Technically they have never been titled either. Sold as new with NO warranty..
Thats what Shelbly did with the continuation Shelby Cobras.

Shelby is considered a manufacturer, not a dealer with cars in a private collection.

Most dealers with private collection, have the cars titled in either the dealers, or dealer principals name