I have a suspicion you guys are right about the ECM....I'm sure someone has thought of this by now, but you mentioned its running better if its raining (water), and when its hot (AC Condensation maybe? therefore water)

Sounds like there could be a bad connection or broken connection, and when it gets wet the conductivity of water makes a better connection and therefore it runs better. Where the connection actually is I don't know, but we had something freaky like that on another car we had, turned out water was completing the circuit, as it only worked when it was wet. I'd hunt for a bad connection or wire somewhere...fun, not.

 

I just fixed a similar problem after trying several different things. It turned out to be the throttle position switch on my car. Have you tried replacing it?

 

No, but that thought has occurred to me more than once, especially since a light touch on the throttle seems to smooth it out.

 

Yeah, I'm not one tO just throw money at a problem until I finally get it fixed, but the next thirdgen I get will receive a reman'd ECM within the first week, it saves alot of headache trying to figure out if a certain part or just the ECM in general is bad

Also if I'm not mistaken there is a procedure I did to figure out If the ECM was bad, it's on here somewhere but I would have to search for it

 

I AM FOAMING AT THE MOUTH!!

This morning on the way to the radio station an oversized rat with antlers jumped in front of the GTA. She wasn't perfect before then, but she is messed up now. The right side headlight module was shattered in a million pieces, and the hood is all crumpled on the right side.

Now what might have been a simple repair job has morphed into a major project. The car actually doesn't look bad from a distance, but the hood is really trashed. I have to figure out how to deal with this... I might just park her for a while.

On the plus side, I am so glad I wasn't driving "Nellie"... I just got her out of the shop and she looks like a brand new car... thinking I might never drive her except in broad daylight in nice weather.

 

That's terrible tim,

Is the damage only to the hood and headlight? If so it shouldn't be too bad to repair, put a pic up if you can

And I agree about Nellie, maybe even have a plaq made with the story behind her for meets and other events

 

Ouch Tim that really just sucks. My dad hit a deer with his 77 301 4 speed firebird at 65 mph on I-80....spun across 2 lanes of traffic and into the median. He rebuilt that car. I am not positive on which wreck this one was, but that same car was then transformed into what would have been a black and gold clone (in gray and silver) with a 10th anniversary interior. So, moral of this story....you can always rebuild it. Naturally its up to you. But it doesn't sound too bad. You have any idea how the frame is?

 

That sucks Tim, but from the sounds of it you might just need a hood and nose which isn't a big deal. Got any pictures of the carnage?

 

I hope you'll at least be enjoying some fresh venison steaks for dinner!

 

The deer seems to have survived, at least for the short run. It bounced into the woods and I never found it.

The hood has an area that looks like someone banged it with a ball peen hammer, but it is not terribly deformed. I may try to straighten it out. The fender is def reparable, all I need for sure is a headlight bucket assembly. I'll post pix as soon as I can.

I can definitely say that if I replace the headlight bucket, I'll be able to drive the car legally, and it will function normally. There was no damage to the nose, believe it or not.

 

plastic bumper and low hood line to thank for that...my brother hit a deer headon with his fiero, it just rolled off the car (over it reportedly) and ran off into the woods, car didn't get damaged at all unless the bumper deformed.

 

OK, a crappy day yesterday. My brothers and I decided to buy our Dad a new laptop for Father's Day, and I went to town to pick it up... in my GTA.

It's the first time I have driven it since the deer strike, and the reason it has been parked is because the passenger side headlight bucket had been destroyed, and I usually leave for work before the sun comes up.

So I figured since I would be driving in the daylight, why not take the GTA?


After finding out that two places were out of stock on the laptop that I wanted to buy, I noticed that the car was running a little hot... it was a hot day, and I had the AC on, so I opened the windows and killed the AC. It didn't make much difference.

I parked the car at yet another store, and went inside. When I came back out (empty-handed), the car refused to start. Sometimes it would catch and die, or run really rough for a minute or so, but stall out if I stepped on the gas. I noticed that the fuel pump was making some kind of God-awful sick noise.

I had filled up the fuel tank that morning after I left the house... so I figured the pump was dying. I called my wife at her restaurant, and she sent a friend to come and get me. While I was waiting, the car eventually started up and ran normally. I drove it around the parking lot for several minutes without incident.

Then all of a sudden, the engine stalled. After just a minute or so, it started right back up, and I drove it some more. Once again, it ran just fine. I parked it and left the engine running. My friend showed up, and as I was explaining to him what happened, the engine quit again. I could start it and run it briefly, but each time it faltered and died.

I left the car in the parking lot and my friend drove me back to the restaurant. Happy Father's Day.

 

I had problems with a stalling car if you recall...you said it was running hot...well my cause for the stalling was the car was killing itself because it was overheating. As soon as I wired up a switch to make the fan stay on the stalling went away. I'd check that fan just in case. But it sounds like you're on the right track if the fuel pump is the problem. Just one thing though, didn't you just replace it?

 

Yes, the pump was replaced when I got the car, not quite 2 years ago. I didn't have any tools or equipment along with me, so I didn't really do much in the way of troubleshooting.

The car crapped out about 25 miles from home, and the roads in between here and there are not conducive to roadside repairs... so I engaged the services of my body man, Peter, and he flatbedded her back to his shop. I'll go over there with some tools and check it out when I get some time. In the meantime, I know it is safe over there.

 

good old thirdgens LOL

 

UPDATE

Because I spend so much time working these days, and also because of weekend commitments, I have not spent any time on the GTA. I picked Nellie up (86 Firebird) from the body shop and she is now my daily driver.

So yesterday, I finally found myself with a free day and grabbed some diagnostic equipment and tools and headed over to the body shop.

The guys at the shop had test driven her a couple of days after she was towed in, and they said she ran normally. Naturally, the car started right up. Fuel pressure was steady and strong. So I kept circling the building, waiting for her to fail, and she didn't. Peter showed up, and we chatted briefly.

After he left, and the car was fully warmed up, I noticed that the voltmeter in the dash was reading on the low side. I turned off the AC, and that helped a bit... I decided to venture out onto the road. As I got ready to pull out of the parking lot, I noticed the voltage dropping again.

Needless to say, I did not drive the car out of the lot. I checked the voltage with my VOM, and with the engine running and my dash gauges reading 13V, my meter told me I had about 12V. This tells me that my alternator has been performing poorly for some time, because I had been noticing that the voltage was always on the low side.

I am wondering if this might explain a lot of the little mysterious problems that keep coming and going... in any case, as long as the alternator is not putting out, further TS is pointless. Naturally, Advance had none in stock, so I ended up ordering a brand new one. We'll see what happens after I get it replaced.

 

I drove my third gen from CT to FL it was in the red the whole time because the ALT was taking a crap it had enough volts but its amps were low and the fans were not turning at full speed. Lucky for me it never died and I made it.

The car sat for 3 years prior so needless to say they dont like to sit

If you need anything let me know ive got tons of parts sitting around

 

Well I have done some head scratching since my last post. I replaced my alternator with a brand new unit. When I first started it up, I noticed that the dash gauge showed slightly higher voltage, but definitely lower than it does in my other two birds.

I drove the car for a bit, and noticed that as she ran hotter, the voltage dropped noticeably. I finally saw that she was running really hot again, and when I checked the aux fan, I saw that it was not running, even with the AC on. A quick TS showed that the relay was closing, but not turning the fan on. I replaced the relay, and now fan operation is normal again.

I'll have to get an accurate voltmeter on this system to check to see if the voltage is good. The car seems to be OK.

Next, I figured I would install the new headlight bucket that I bought from a TGO member. That was a fairly routine job, so I finished quickly. I decided to tackle my mystery wiper motor issue... sometimes they work, sometimes not. I had swapped the control board from another wiper motor with no improvement. So today I put the control back on the other wiper motor and swapped the whole motor this time. SUCCESS! They work normally now.

So now I can drive my GTA again. I just need to get her inspected before the end of the month. It was a pleasure driving around in her again; the WS6 suspension and the v8/5-speed makes it distinctly better than driving "Nellie".

 

You could have had my luck and had a huge tree limb fall across it while sitting in the yard. luckily it was before I had it painted.

 

That sucks! At least it fell on a relatively easy spot to fix, rather than the roof or something. Although is that headlight cover/door made of plastic? I thought they were made of metal... at least I know my 91 is that way.

 

They are metal, but it is "pot" metal

 

Oh it was much worse, it came very close to hitting the A-pillar. Yeah the headlight doors are metal, but its VERY brittle and breaks like plastic.

 

wow!

 

UPDATE IN THE CASE INVOLVING THE MURDER OF MY SON

It's over. We were called by the prosecutor on Tuesday to set up a meeting for later that afternoon.

We were informed that the defense had offered a plea deal. They were willing to plead guilty to Capital Murder, guilty to murder with a firearm, and no contest to the robbery charge. In exchange for that, they wanted the death penalty off the table.

Although many felt that this kid deserved to die for what he did, we also realize that the odds were (because of the way the law is written) against his receiving that sentence. Then there is the matter of appeals, overturning a conviction, and reversal of decisions. Since this kid looks very young and fragile, it is possible that with a sympathetic jury, he might have gotten a lighter sentence.

Also, we realize that vengeance is not ours, and will not bring our son back. Since this would close the matter finally, once and for all, we agreed to the deal.

In a hearing the next day, the judge found him guilty on all counts, and sentenced him to LIFE for the murder (there is no parole or time off for good behaviour), plus 3 more years for committing a murder with a firearm, plus 50 more years for the robbery. So he got a total of LIFE + 53 years.

He is now being transferred to a maximum security prison where he will be confined for 23 hours per day in a concrete cell. No arts and crafts, no cable TV, no weightlifting, no studying for a law degree in the prison library. We have been told that he could have no worse life than the one that is waiting for him now.

What appeals to me most is that this is the most likely sentence that he would have received, if everything went our way... and it can never be appealed or changed for any reason. It is done.

Also, this meant that I would not have to testify (I was subpoenaed), and also the girl involved, who is now an emotional cripple, also will not have to testify. As soon as I can get together with the people in the sheriff's office, I will get all of his personal belongings back, including his rifles and the keys to his Firebird.

 

I'm glad its over Tim. We prayed for that peace that passes understanding and I see that God is giving that to you and your family. Blessings to you!

 

You did the right thing in my book.

 

Blessings to you and to your family Tim. That guy got what he deserved. I hope that he'll find the Lord soon and ask for His forgiveness.

 

Well of course that is entirely up to him. One thing that escaped my notice until it was pointed out to me was that although he was given the opportunity, he never expressed regret over what he did, nor did he offer an apology to anyone, including his own family. He now has plenty of time to ask for forgiveness, but I suppose he will have to begin to look at things differently.

 

.

 

I made some significant progress last weekend. As I have mentioned, the car seems to run really well at times, and at other times idles poorly and is difficult to get rolling from a stop.

I noticed that when the car was cold, it usually ran particularly badly, and improved some after it warmed up. But when the weather got cold, it seemed like it ran better when cold. Last Saturday, I got out there to put the car up on ramps so I could fix my air dam, which had broken free on one side after I ran it up against one of those concrete curbs in a parking lot.

It was wicked could outside, and the car started RIGHT up and ran so smoothly I was shocked. Even after it was warm, it was still running so smoothly I couldn't believe it. So I popped the hood, and started poking around. That was when I noticed a large diameter vacuum line at the rear of the plenum, which fed a tee. The line was only about 3 inches long, and it was completely collapsed.

I pulled the line, and the car went back to its familiar crappy idle. The line itself was badly dry-rotted. So I figured that it must have been leaking vacuum, but in the cold weather the rubber must have contracted to close up the leaks... at which point the line, lacking structural integrity, collapsed, sealing off the leak.

I replaced that short piece of vacuum line, and test drove the car. It seemed better, but I decided to give it a week-long test. One week later, the car still runs better at idle than it ever has. It is so much easier to get it rolling in first gear now, and except for an occasional slight rpm fluctuation at idle, the surging and roughness are gone. The car appears to steadily improve the more I drive it.

Next chance I get, I think I will buy a bunch of vacuum hose and just replace all of them.

 

It's amazing what dry-rotted vacuum lines can do to affect your cars driveability! Congrats on finding out what the source of your problem was.

 

OK, after a little break from playing mechanic, I am back to work on my GTA and my sons bird.

The GTA was running well enough, but not perfectly, for a time after I replaced that porous vacuum line. Over the last 2 weeks, it has started giving me fits. It goes from purring like a kitten to barely idling, bucking, backfiring, and stalling. When that happens, I get a SES light. The paper clip trick reveals a code 36 (MAF burnoff relay). Usually, the next time I drive the car the light is gone and it runs OK.

Sometimes, when I start the car up, I get the SES light, and it runs fairly well.

Now, it seems odd to me that the car should be running with no indication of a problem, and then suddenly I get the SES light, with a code 36. The MAF burnoff function is supposed to occur after shutdown. Also, I have replaced the MAF with a solid state aftermarket unit. Does this one do any kind of a burnoff? It doesn't seem to add up to me, but I will be the first to tell you that I don't know everything, especially when it comes to TPI.

Anyway, today I replaced some more vacuum lines as a precaution, and also temporarily swapped in a brand new ignition coil because I happened to have one handy. I think it may run a bit smoother at times, thanks to the new vacuum lines, but it still has the same symptoms and the SES light. I went back to the original coil.

The good news is that after 10,000 miles under my ownership, she has not burned any oil. It has been 1500 miles since the last oil change, and the oil is right up to the mark and golden colored. So at least at 148,500 miles, I appear to have a healthy engine.

After reading a lot of posts in the TPI and engine forums, I am beginning to wonder now if I have a bad ECM. When this engine wants to, it runs like a brand new car... and then other times, not so well. I am going to pull the lower valance under the dash and try rapping on the ECM just to see if I get a reaction. Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

 

I wish I was at home, I would look up the ECM test I used to verify my ECM was on the fritz without throwing an ECM trouble code, it might have only been for TBI cars though

 

OK so I got up on Sunday with the idea in mind that I would putter around the house, and do a little more on the t-top project on Alex's car...

Then the wife called from her restaurant. She had spilled something on herself, and needed me to bring her a change of clothes. So I gathered what I needed, got in the GTA, and turned the key. Click. Click. Click. Click.

Now, the starter in this car has been making "extra" noises almost since I have had it. Also recently at times it had struggled to turn the engine over, but only occasionally. So I figured it finally bit the dust. I did some quick troubleshooting, and saw that the lights did not dim when I turned the key and the solenoid clicked. So I figured my starter had an open winding.

I got under the car and whacked the starter with a hammer. Then I tried it again, and the car started. I shut it off, and then it went back to not responding except for the solenoid clicking.

Now, my truck was at the radio station. The only other car at home (besides Nellie, with the bearing knock) was Alex's car, on which I was doing a t-top seal repair. She started as usual with a flick of the key, and I brought my wife her clothes. Then I went to Advance Auto, and got a replacement starter. They didn't have the manual trans version in stock, so I got the auto version and decided to swap the noses.

The starter was easy enough to drop, but would not come down out of the car because the exhaust was in the way. I have worked on enough old cars to know that I wanted to avoid dropping the engine pipe on a 24 year old car unless I wanted to open up another can of worms.

I finally realized that I could remove the solenoid and then get the starter out, and that's what I did. I swapped the noses, put the new starter up, put the solenoid back on the new starter, and got it installed. It made a horrible grinding noise when I turned the key. I removed it again, reassembled it, and bench tested it. It worked normally.

Inspection of the flywheel and the starter showed no damage. I reinstalled the starter, but this time did the 'bench test' on it while it was down below but not installed. It turns out the grinding noise was the starter struggling to turn, because the ground was poor. Eventually, I installed a new battery ground cable, and she cranked right up and lit off. I felt like an idiot, although I knew that my old starter was not 100% right.

In any case, with the new starter and ground cable, the car starts much more quickly. It remains to be seen whether or not I have made any other gains.

 

UPDATE

The car seemed to idle more consistently after the new battery ground cable was installed, but seemed balky when cold. I took a trip into town to get my daughter from school, and just as we were close to home, it started acting up, losing power, and hiccuping. Then it recovered for a bit, and started in again.

When I got home, the engine stalled and was difficult to start, and ran poorly when it did, then stalled again. I got my fuel pressure gauge out, and found that fuel pressure is only at about 20-30 psi, and the pump sounds like a sick cat. The pump is an Airtex, which I was assured was equivalent to OEM. I know that other people have complained about their reliability. Anyway, the plan now is to replace the pump and filter, and see what happens.

It would be nice if replacing the pump solves all my little headaches, but I'm not counting on it.

 

if you have to drop the tank to change the pump again, I can only recommend a Racetronix pump, along with their booster harness. the harness taps onto the back of the alternator, to give the pump a 100% steady 14 volts.

I have this setup on my car and im going on 3 years no issues.

I actually have my thirdgen out for the first time in a year. I can bring it by sometime if you'd like to check it out. I don't believe you've seen it yet

 

OK so I went out to the car yesterday and opened the hood. I had left the fuel pressure gauge installed because I wanted to try and start the car after letting it sit.

Sure enough, I turned the key, the pump primed and sounded perfectly normal. 42 psi. I started the car, and it did its normal chugging and surging, and I noticed that every time the engine ran the way it should for a few seconds, the pressure dropped to 38. Then when it would falter, the pressure would go back up to 40.

After just a couple of minutes, the car smoothed out and idled nicely. Goosing the throttle would result in a momentary rise in fuel pressure, and then it would drop to 38.

I'm guessing that means that when it is running crappy, it's because the injectors are not opening properly, causing the rise in fuel pressure. This makes me think that the ECM may not be right.

Then I remembered the whole Father's Day incident, documented here. The two incidents were similar:

• Relatively hot days when I was running A/C
• engine, while not overheating, running hotter than normal
• faint smell of fuel when the car slowed to a stop
• car would start up and run normally after cooling off
• engine had been running for more than an hour

Most of my driving is short trips of about 15 to 20 minutes. So I did some research here on thirdgen, and I found a couple of LONG threads that told me that this is a weird condition that LOTS of people experience with their thirdgen cars... and as near as I can tell, it has not been solved. I DO love a challenge, but damn... just damn.

Supposedly, the condition involves heated fuel and excessive pressure inside the gas tank. I am guessing that the fuel smell is from the pressure relief valve that I am told is installed on the fuel tank itself.

Since I have been toying with the idea of taking this car on a long trip, it's obvious that I need to solve this problem.

 

I'd love to see your car! BTW, congrats on your engagement.

I checked into Racetronix, and they sell the highly touted Walbro fuel pump. I had seen in the other threads that even that didn't solve the problem... however, the whole replacement WIRING HARNESS thing turned on a light bulb over my head.

Another symptom that was noticed in the Father's Day incident was lower than normal voltage. I am wondering if that wiring harness upgrade would take care of this issue.

 

I wouldnt think the walbro pump would fix your problem, but its a million times better than any of these junk aftermarket pumps, and chances are you'll never have to replace the pump again

without a doubt, the harness would fix any voltage issues! I'll show you mine....it taps right off the hot stud on the back of the alternator. It has an inline fuse too, "just in case"

and thanks for the engagement comment. We've been engaged 11 months now, just got around to getting some rings. Wedding is in October on the Virginia Dare

 

That is WAY cool! Tell Alice and Lynn that you are a friend of mine.

 

I did and my rate doubled!

 

 

Have you ohm'd the injectors on the GTA yet?

 

Swapped over to a matched set of Bosch III's from southbay. I would imagine if they were not right, the car would not run well as often as it does. My problems are intermittent.

 

I would still ohm them just to see, your experiencing the same problems I had with my formula once I ohm'd mine I found I only had 3 good injectors. Car has ran fine since replacing them.

 

I'll check them this weekend.

 

Curious to see how you make out with this!

Best of luck with it and thanks for keeping a strong heart through it all. I know sometimes you probably wanna throw in the rag and call it quits but it all pays off.

 

Well, oddly enough, over the last couple of weeks, the car has been running more consistently well than it ever has before.

I had to order a MAF burnoff relay, and the serpentine belt is starting to look pretty rough, so I got one of those, too. Unfortunately, "more important things" (depending on one's point of view) keep getting in the way. I am going to try and mess with it some more tomorrow.

The one thing that it is doing that has me scratching my head is that sometimes it fires right off, and other times, it takes a few seconds of cranking before it catches, and in extreme cases, I have to release the key switch after a few seconds of cranking to get it to catch.

Once it fires, it seems to run fine. I really need to find some time to just work with it, but this weekend is Easter...

 

In a way it may help it to swap in the better pump and hot wire kit. I put one in my z28 over the winter and love it. Changed the plugs and fuel filter at the same time. You could always check your base timing too. My car starts pretty good now still not as quick as my swaped car but better than it did.

 

So I got the MAF burnoff relay and installed it. Reset the computer by pulling the ground cable and reattaching it. This morning I replaced the serpentine belt.

Car was running very well. Still an occasional stumble at idle, and a little uneven in terms of how quickly it started.

Then today, I drove it all around town, making several stops, with the AC running. No problems until my last stop before home, and she started to falter, and I got the SES light. Shut her down, went inside for a while, and then came out to head home. SES light is on constantly now. Car seems to run OK, maybe a little less power on acceleration.

I got home, and did the paper clip trick. Code 33, Code 36, Code 43. Crap.

Since this always happens with AC running, I am going to troubleshoot the harness where all of these things intersect. Wish me luck.