ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Now that my son's '87 bird, rescued from the crusher for $200, is the envy of all his classmates at school, it's Dad's turn to play.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...ather-son.html

Thanks to another TGO member, I stumbled across an '88 GTA with 138K miles, mostly intact except for the steering column. Originally, I was going to use her for parts for "Nellie", my son's first car, the '86 bird. But when we got the GTA off the trailer, my son flat out told me I would be crazy to part this car out. He's right. It's a GTA with Performance suspension, WS6, and 305 TPI. I know a lot of you prefer 350s, as do I, but I'm fine with the 305.

To make a long story short, the car had no title, but I was able to secure one using the "Abandoned Vehicle" laws in Virginia. So now I'll be getting the GTA road-worthy with as little effort as possible, so I can get her out of the garage. Then "Nellie" goes in for some serious restoration work... stay tuned.

Here's what she looked like, right off the trailer:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...icture-224.jpg

Awesome-X

Yeah that looks pretty nice. I certainly wouldn't part her out, either. I can't wait to see what you do to this one

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

she's a beaut'. subscribing to this. your other thread was very interesting, i'd like to see what this one brings about. MORE PICS OF THE GTA PLEASE!!!

L695speed

Wow thats definitely not a parts car. A lil work and it will be a nice car.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Well, first, I needed a steering column. My friend 1brd2brd3brd4, who is a wealth of info, not to mention parts, hooked me up with one. That went into the car today, amid much wailing and gnashing of teeth. I don't recommend it for the over-50-with-a-bad-back crowd.

The reason I needed the column is because it has VATS, and the previous owner lost the key. The car has been sitting for 3 years without running, but it's in remarkably good condition. The PO tried unsuccessfully to bypass the VATS, and in so doing, he literally trashed the steering column.

The replacement column is also from a VATS car, complete with key... but no module. I figured, hey, I got a one-in-15 shot that it will work... it didn't. However, now I can turn the ignition on, and stuff comes to life, including, of course, the dreaded SECURITY light.

I have saved the old column and a pile of assorted parts, because this car is a GTA with steering-wheel radio controls. Ultimately, I'd like to make this car my daily driver, and I'd like to install one of those new Jensen DVD receivers, with a PAC module to use the steering wheel controls.

My short-term plan is just to get the car running. Critters have chewed through the ignition wires, so I'll treat her to new ones, and some new platinum plugs while I am at it. I'll also need to make a trip to Radio Shack to buy a 500-pack of resistors, so I can play "Musical Ohms" until I find out the correct resistance. Then it's off to ACE Hardware to make a couple of correct keys. Once she's driveable, I have to make good on my promise to repair "Nellie".

It's Sunday evening, and I have a full work week ahead... I'll be back on the job on Saturday.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

OH, I almost forgot. Picked this one up for $475... I'll post pix as soon as I can get some taken.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Can you get the VATS module out of the column donors car?

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

I thought about that, but Dave didn't have it. I'm not sure where he got the column; he does a lot of junkyard 'shopping', and he picked it up in his travels.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

In the pic, those look like it the 15" version (not the original 16") crosslace-style wheels. Are they?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

thats what they look like to me

Stangski09

iTrader: (10)

$475 for a GTA. WOW

L695speed

Its a 305 and I didn't see it unless I missed it but is it a stick or an auto?

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

OK... yes, they are 15" silver crosslace wheels... I picked them up when I was amassing parts for "Nellie"... The GTA came with a mint set of 16" gold crosslace wheels, but the tires were shot. So I put these on it to get it rolling up onto the trailer.

After doing some thinking and some research, it occurred to me that the 16" tires, which cannot be rotated, were rather expensive... and I'm pretty tight with a dollar... so I put them up for sale. Eventually, I traded them to 1brd2brd3brd4 for some parts. Sorry to offend any purists out there, but I live at the end of a gravel road, and I already have one vehicle that eats me alive with expensive tires.

It is a 305, automatic. I have been collecting parts for a T5 swap, and to date I have everything except the shifter, a flywheel, and a VSS. If the automatic is OK, I will probably drive it that way for a little while.

L695speed

flywheel shouldn't be too hard to get, especially since you are not really going over the 1 piece/ 2 piece rear main seal. I'd say it would run you about 100 new. (I got mine on wholesale so...) And about the rims, I understand what you are saying, but like anything out there, you can always add them on later, they look much better too.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

It is up to you (& your wallet) as to what wheels/tires you run. I was only curious if you were aware of them not being the "correct" mesh wheels or not. They still look good & there is no reason not to run them.

To clarify things a bit on fitment.....The 16" crosslace fronts will fit all 4 corners & crosslace rears will fit the fronts, if you use the OEM drum brake spacer (about 1/4" thick).

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Stephen,

Yeah, I was aware of all that... just trying to keep things simple (and cheap). Besides, what I got for the wheels just about paid for the rest of the car.

Anyhow, I really like the look of the silver crosslace wheels. So I'm fine with it.

Zwrench

In anticipation of another wonderful thread, I'm subscribed.

Is your son going to help you on this one or is he too busy fightin' off the ladies?

Good decision saving the GTA, by the way!

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Thanks for the kind words. My son is very busy with his senior year in school... not to mention the ladies...

As far as the GTA is concerned, yeah, it would have been stupid to cut her up... and I have to give my son some credit for pointing that out to me.

Stangski09

iTrader: (10)

Nothing beats a sexy 3rd in high school =)

GTA50

Great find, great price. I'll have to keep tabs with you as I do the frameup on my 1988 GTA resto.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Looks good. Way to get this one going again... I have always like GTA's alot. And I may be planning an Ls1 swap for one in the future.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Well, this one is not going to be a resto... in the short term anyway... the car is still in pretty good shape, and I need to get it driveable ASAP so I can get it out of the garage and repair the body on my '86... but I will watch your thread closely... now that we are 'blood brothers'...

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

OK, progress has been made... I went to Radio Shack today, and bought the 500-pack of resistors. I printed the chart of the VATS resistance values, and then selected the different values out of the bulk pack. In several cases, I had to solder two or three resistors in series to arrive at the correct resistance.

Then I took the old lock cylinder, cut off the pigtail, and spliced it to a female connector that held the resistor leads snugly. I then unplugged the connector under the dash, and plugged in my home-made test rig. I had forgotten that you have to wait a few minutes in between attempts, because the module locks you out if you try to crank with the wrong resistance value. Needless to say, on the first go-round, I went through all 15 with no success.

After I realized my mistake, I spaced out my attempts over at least 5 minute intervals. She started cranking with #15. Now I have to take the key to ACE and get a copy cut on a #15 blank. While I am at it, I'll need to pick up the ignition wires and spark plugs... and get ready for a busy weekend.

Stangski09

iTrader: (10)

Great progress so far!

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

Hahaha wow gotta love how naturally its the LAST ONE that always works. But I'm glad to hear that you got her cranking. Let us know when she fires.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

OK, did a little shopping this week and picked up oil, a filter, plugs, and ignition wires... also picked up a muffler and tail extensions for my son's 87 to give as a birthday present (he turns 18 on Monday).

Spent most of this morning jacking the car up. Between flat tires and GFX it was a challenge. Not to mention fat guys need the car a lot higher in the air.

I dropped the oil, which took an eternity to drain out. It was nice and thick and black. While it drained, I pulled a plug wire from underneath (turns out its easier to do at least some of them from the bottom). I removed the #8 plug, to discover that it was an NGK with no apparent wear, although it was a little dirty.

At that point, I decided that for now I would replace the ignition wires without changing the plugs, since these seemed to have seen little service. I figured I'd have enough to do trying to bring this beast back from the dead, and I could always change the plugs later on.

Changing the wires turned out to be enough of a challenge, although the work went fairly smoothly. By the time I was done, my oil had drained, and I replaced the drain plug and filter, and put in 5 fresh quarts of oil.

Now I was ready to see just how lucky I was -- or wasn't, as it turned out. When I turned the key to the ON position, I did not hear the familiar hum of the fuel pump priming up. Now, I had cranked the engine several times prior to changing the ignition wires, just to make sure all was well and to get some oil pumping, but never bothered to listen for the fuel pump.

I pulled the pigtail on the fuel pump relay, and jumped power to the pump feed. Although I got a little arc when I touched the contact, I still heard nothing.

A quick check of the fuel gauge showed that it read FULL. Hmmm. If it was working properly, that might mean a dead fuel pump, and the PO had filled the tank thinking it was out of fuel. I cracked open some fuel lines, and found there was residual fuel, but no pressure. The filter was not clogged, and had fuel in it.

Even with the filter removed, no fuel pumped when I jumped the relay connector (under controlled laboratory conditions, of course).

So now it looks like the tank's going to have to come out. I stuck a rubber hose in the tank, and it appears to be full. Yay.

The good news is that the underside of the car is in excellent shape, with virtually no rust, other than some surface rust on the K-member and other chassis components. I'll hit these with Rust Bullet -- which by the way, is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's so good, I caution you not to get it on anything by accident. It does not come off.

Tomorrow morning, I promised Alex that we'd install his new muffler, so I am not sure how much time I'll have for the GTA... which is now officially a project.

L695speed

First before you take the tank apart are you sure its not the pump on the motor? The FI motors are not familiar to me but on the older ones the pump is down on the passenger side at the front of the motor. It could be that pump. Also another tip, how long did that car sit for? When I did my motor my old plugs were corroded after sitting around for five years. Putting in new electrical components does a world of difference. This is sort of off the point but I'm working on a 66 Mustang that sat for 20 years. The plugs looked good on some cylinders, but in others they were totally gone.

JT

iTrader: (1)

The sole fuel pump is in the fuel tank on this 1988 GTA.

L695speed

Ok thanks JT. I'll keep that in mind if I get a later third gen.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

awesome find dude

Mark in Maine

Hi, Tim; Great find, and it you have an entertaining way of telling the stories of your Firebird - related efforts. I'll be looking forward to seeing a picture ot two of your latest project. My project is resting under its cover out in the garage, with about three feet of snow piled up in front of the door, while I continue to scrounge around and accumulate the parts I'll need to get the 'vert into better shape for Spring rollout . . .

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Now that I am on a Journey to the Center of the Fuel Tank, I have been thinking a lot about the GREAT FUEL PUMP ACCESS controversy.

I know that many TGO people look down their noses at anyone who would cut an access hole... but I think that if the job is done properly, it's a great way to save a lot of unnecessary work.

When I worked as a mechanic for TWA, we used to change a lot of fuel pumps... but it was no big deal, because most of the trucks were S10s and S10 Blazers, and dropping the tank was a simple matter. I know that a lot of guys are saying that it is not that bad of a job, but after wrestling with my son's exhaust yesterday, I am inclined toward any procedure that makes my life easier, as long as it does not have a deleterious effect on the car. What worries me the most is that I have seen way too many posts from guys who replaced electric fuel pumps only to have them fail in a short time.

As for doing the job properly, that would include either making a proper mounting flange and sealing it with gasket material, or installing one of the JEGS access doors. The only reason why I wouldn't use the JEGS door is that I am worried that the access hole might not be large enough. At the risk of being flamed, I invite you to post your thoughts.

Zwrench

I won't take sides in the debate because I can honestly see both sides.

It's your car, it's going to be a daily driver... do what make the most sense for your situation.

If you were planning a concours restoration however, I'd advise against it.

zraffz

Nice car, I have a descent clutch/pressure plate/and flywheel for a T5 that you can have if you pay for shipping from NJ. Clutch and pressure plate are relatively new, it might have around 20 miles total... of hard driving though.

L695speed

This is way off the point...but where are you in Sussex County NJ? I'm in Andover Township. You are definitely local to me. Just wondering if maybe I've seen your car somewhere.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

No, not planning a concours resto... will restore eventually, but only for my own pleasure. I don't "show" cars; I drive them. No disrespect to you show guys, as I do enjoy that... it's just that I get my pleasure from my cars by driving them.

Zraffz, I am most interested... as long as it's the right flywheel for an '88 305. PM me with shipping cost.

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

Do whatever is easier for you and just cut the damn hole lol. You can weld it back up and its covered by carpeting anyway. That's probably what I'd do. XD

zraffz

Flywheel is off a 84 TA 305. I'm pretty sure all the 305 flywheels are the same from the T5 setup as long as you are running a T5 and not a world class T5. I know as far as flexplates go, all 305 flexplates are the same and the are not interchangeable with 350's cause of the way they are balanced.


Yeah you are very local. About 15-20 minutes from me. I live in Stillwater but the car hasn't been on the road in over a year and it was never taken out to do anything other then cause some havoc. Furthest it would have gone was newton. PM me if you are interested in going to island sometime.

L695speed

First, we tried to use the 84's flywheel on the 87 LG4 I put in it and it didn't work as it was rattling around with the bolts in. We discovered there was a difference because of the change from a two piece to one piece rear main seal.

Second, I'll have to take you up on that offer on going to Island sometime. My car probably won't be there or won't be making runs down the strip but I'll go just to hang around and have fun.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

I don't think there would be a difference between WC and NWC T5 as far as the flywheel goes... but my trans is a WC.

Also, there was a change around 1985 from a 2-piece to a 1-piece rear main seal, and from internal to external balancing. Therefore, I'm guessing that your flywheel wouldn't work, unless you have a later model engine. Dang.

L695speed

Just my input on this, so you don't run into the parts merry go round that I did. When they ask for the VIN of your car for the 88 I think you want the F VIN code. We had the wrong parts at first, a call to a friend of a friend who builds race motors quickly resolved that. But talk about a waste. I still have a 14 in flywheel and 12 in clutch in my garage that I have no use for. And as I said above I think the change happened in 87 so you want 87 or newer.

zraffz

Oh okay. I didn't even think about that.
Well L6, if you want the clutch and pressure plate you can have it. I haven't taken a look at it, it was only ever driven at the track with the new clutch and only made like 50 passes so it can't be that bad.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

OK, so I did the dirty deed...

After reading a couple of threads dealing with cutting an access hole, including one off this site, I decided to cut the access hole, but do a professional job. This would involve neatly marking the cut, using radiused corners, and installing a heavy plate cover, using rubberized gasket material and PEM nuts.

I do not take responsibility for any problems you may have if you try this, but I will share some things:

• I used a 'zip wheel' to scribe all of my cuts, without going all the way through. Then I broke through just enough in one spot to get my aviation snips in, and cut the rest of the way through with the snips. It was a snap.
• Some have suggested 'dyking' or using snips to cut through the fuel lines. I don't recommend this. Although you can clean up the end by cutting a tiny bit off with a mini-tubing cutter, there's not enough room to turn the tubing cutter on all of the lines.
• I solved this by using a saw handle designed to hold a hacksaw blade and be used like a keyhole saw. I installed a metal-cutting sabre saw blade, and was able to cut the lines safely with that without mangling them.
• Immediately after finishing the hole cut, dress the edges with a file and/or sandpaper. I was careful, but skinned a knuckle because I didn't do this first.
• Before cutting lines or removing the lock ring, make the area on top of the tank in the vicinity of the lines as clean as possible. As you create filings and other debris, clean as you go. This way you minimize getting crud and/or filings in your lines or your tank.

I posted earlier that my fuel gauge was reading dead full. Once I removed the pump, it was clear that the tank had plenty of gas, but was not nearly full. So, I got my ohmmeter and checked the sender -- it was shorted to ground. I removed the 'wiper' assembly, and it was crusted with all kinds of residue. I am going to replace it, hopefully with a cheap unit from another application. The wipers are usually all the same, so that will save me from having to buy a model-specific assembly.

Naturally, I want to solve my gauge sending unit problem before I put it back together. Stay tuned.

As a footnote, I will say that the time involved in cutting the access hole and the fuel lines is enough that doing this job does not really save time. However, it does save a lot of nasty work and the old man's back. My main reason for opting to do it this way is that it is easier for me to do, and also if this pump ever fails on the highway somewhere, I'll be able to swap it out in a few minutes and not have to call a tow truck.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Nope. It doesn't save you much time the FIRST time you do it. But 4 years later or for those who had the "new pump" go out 4 months later, you'll be loving it. When your pump goes out on the highway or in the HEB/Wal Mart/Petsmart/Best Buy/shopping mall parking lot. No tow truck needed. No getting under a car in a parking lot.

Walk to the parts store...30 minutes & no dirty clothes from being under the car later & they are driving again!

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

Must be great especially if you have a thirdgen as your daily driver.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

My 3rd gen is my ONLY driver. I don't even own 2 cars, nor do I feel a need to own a backup. I just want a truck, or small 2-wheel trailer, for carrying stuff that won't fit in my hatch.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Years ago, when I had my firstgen ('69 Camaro) it was my only car. Eventually, I sold it and after that, I normally had an extra vehicle, usually a truck. When I started buying new vehicles, there were just two: one each for me and my wife.

My present driver is an '04 Dodge RAM 1500 pickup. I bought it so that I'd have something to haul stuff in (we don't have garbage pickup here, and I do my own home improvements) plus I needed a 4x4 because my house is on the side of a hill. She only gets 14 mpg, but she's paid for. Times being what they are, I'd like to give her some rest and stretch out her useful life.

SO, I thought it would be neat to have a sports car again... but I was worried about things like the fuel pump giving out on a long trip... which I will do several times a year. When completed, I plan on using the GTA as my daily driver.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

UPDATE

I got up this morning with the idea that I would try to find a universal fuel gauge sender and take the wiper assembly off it to use on mine. Advance's website said they had one for $16. To make a long story short, after cruising all over town and beyond for 2 hours, nobody had it, and Advance told me that they would probably not get it back in stock. I finally gave up and went home.

I had sprayed the old wiper assembly with carb cleaner yesterday, so I decided to try cleaning it some more. It looked a lot better today, and after spraying it some more and hitting it with penetrating oil, I got it pretty clean. At that point, the ohmmeter told me that it was no longer dead shorted to ground. So I reassembled the sender, and prepared to drop everything back in the tank. Here are a few more notes for those of you who will not blame me if you try this 'mod' and have problems:

• It's a real bitch getting the compression fittings tight, because there is little space between the lines. I bent them apart a little bit, and it worked OK. Again, the first time you do this, it's not really a time-saver. Now that the fittings are in and tight, disconnecting and reconnecting will be easy.
• No matter how you change your pump, take extra care when attaching the input screen. It seems like it is attached when it really isn't, at least that was my experience. I was worried about puncturing it, so I didn't push too hard to get it on the pump... but eventually realized (after dropping it in the tank once) that I wasn't pushing it on far enough.
• It's a little tricky snaking the whole assembly in and out of the tank, and getting everything right. This might tempt you to cut the wiring harness. I don't recommend this, as it creates a potential for failure at your connections. Patience is a must.

I also figured at this time, I had my best opportunity to purge the old fuel out of the tank before reassembly. I pumped 10 gallons out, using a plastic hand pump. It was a snap with the fuel pump assembly out of the tank.

I then was able to see that my tank is positively pristine inside: All shiny and new looking, with no dirt or debris. Nice. I poured 4 gallons of fresh fuel in through the filler neck, and added a can of Sea Foam just to be sure.

I turned the key. The pump primed. No leaks. I cranked the engine, and it immediately started to fire, but would not start. The longest it would run was for maybe 5 seconds, not hitting on all 8. My guess is that I should probably go back and change the spark plugs. I was hoping that I'd get lucky and she'd at least run, but no such luck.

After quite a few minutes of intermittent cranking, my SECURITY light came back on. I think the little resistor that I used probably warmed up a bit from all the cranking (went back oout to the garage right before posting this, and I was correct. It cranked fine. Damn near started). In any case, it was late in the day, so I figured I'd stop and wait until next weekend. Then I noticed some good news: My gas gauge is reading correctly.

OH, BTW --- some of you have seen me mention my son, who got me all started playing with cars again -- he was just nominated by our congressman for admission to West Point. That's his dream, and he's a little closer to realizing it now.

j79z28

Congrats to your son and your family on this first step towards West Point! I enjoy your posts on the progress of your cars. I just got an 86 IROC that had been sitting for 5 years to start running again. This site is great for info, and has many helpful people if you have any questions.

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

my goodness you and your son are geniuses, every parts car you buy is turning in to a beautiful thirdgen again! these are great threads and great stories, best of luck to you both on your thirdgen(and west point) adventrues