I know these cars aren't supposed to exist...yet I just came across a 91 with the 5.7 and "factory T-tops" the vin checks out engine code 8 although I haven't seen the RPO sheet to see if it has the CC1 in it yet ...what do you guys think? How much more do you think would this car be worth than a hard top car if it checks out?

 

Whatever someone wants to pay for it.

 

true...I ask because the guy's a dealer and I really don't think he knows how rare it is because the car looks mint with 66k on it and under $7k. He said he might be putting it on ebay and I wonder if it will go for more than that.

 

I looked into it a little bit and came across this thread.

http://www.gtasourcepage.com/forum/s...d.php?p=426465

Maybe someone else found it too, or that's you, not sure. Dunno. People like to throw "350" and "5.7" around just to act like they know something about it. When I got my IROC in 2008, the guy said it had a 350 and the all familiar term of "three quarter cam". At least he was somewhat right though, it did turn out to be a 4 bolt 350. So that was a nice little surprise hiding in it.

 

Nope not me...that threads from 2003 and I just found this car the other day.

 

I think about as close to 100% as you can get, it is not a factory 5.7 GTA with t-tops.

If you have the VIN you can run it through compnine.com and it should return the list of RPOs that the car has.

 

http://www.compnine.com/vid.php?vin=1g2fw2381ml208502

See Y84 L98 but no CC1..dealer installed perhaps?

 

I'd probably buy the car anyway if it was any other color than that forest Green

 

I like the forest green, my 91 GTA was originally that color (with the tan interior, too) and I plan on repainting it back to that color.

Anyway, that basically answers your question to the 99.9999999% certainty they are not stock t-tops. Where is the car located? There is a forest green 91 GTA that was for sale in WA, but it very obviously had C&C t-tops as it had the "flip up" option and most of the pictures had the t-tops up.

 

I love the Beachwood leather the best(which that car has) but with Black or Bright or flame red

I'm in central Florida and the car is in Missouri If it was closer I still might be tempted

http://springfield.craigslist.org/ctd/2351797546.html

 

The guy who started that thread had just joined in Feb 2011, and it was started on 02-02-2011. So it made me think it may be the same car. Not sure where you saw 2003.

 

I have seen 3 or so verified CC1/L98 91/92 Trans Ams. None of them were GTA's though.

Verify CC1 is there or not on the SPID label then the dealer

 

I would really be interested in seeing a verification with a VIN to see on Compnine or a SPID...

 

If I recall correctly, CC1 was the factory option. No questions there. But C&C t-tops were done by the dealership.....so, the dealer isn't 100% out of line.

 

I guess when I clicked the link I clicked on another thread that was from 2003.

 

A 91 5.7 with T-tops is an extremely rare car regardless if they were installed by the dealer....the ad does say "factory" though.

 

If they weren't installed by the factory (CC1 RPO) then C&C t-tops add between a little to a negative value as compared to a hard top car.

 

Agreed. I checked Compnine's database and it doesn't show any for 1991 or 1992 with CC1, L98 and GTA or Trans Am. It shows all are W66 (Formulas).

That's not to say that they didn't exist, as Compnine's database isn't 100% complete, but an SPID as a record would prove very helpful.

 

That's what my car has. Don't know if it was the dealer that installed them or not since the original dealership in Simi Valley is long gone.

 

Most of the C&C tops seem to be when the car was rather new... The price for the C&C tops I believe was similar in price to the Factory tops when new... With that said, once the car was used, the value probably would not have been there to install them to make a used car sale, however an owner may have opted to have them installed after they bought the car...

Just thinking with my fingers... no proof, just logically thinking about the majority of the C&C top conversions.

I do know that there have been some hard top cars that were converted to T-tops by someone cutting off a junkyard car and installing it on a hardtop. It would not be a difficult process with someone that has good metal skills, the pieces should line up, as long as you keep the car from sagging when you do the conversion, I do not know why it would be a problem... I know they do it to 2nd gens all the time to make them into Bandit replicas...

John

 

I can see a dealer t-top conversion not adding value because of originality.

 

When new it was a selling point... "Gee. I really like this car, but I wanted T-tops", it allowed dealers to install T-tops into cars to make a sale would be the only reason why it was done IMHO... I would bet you got the "Yeah, there exactly like the Factory tops, no one will know" line from the salesperson.



JOhn

 

Here are pictures of CC1 t-tops (left) and C&C t-tops (obviously right).

 

My firebird has t-tops and has the 350 TPI, even though its a swap but still

 

Been over this before... THe obvious difference between the Factory (CC1) tops and the C&C tops is the gap between the windshield and the tops... The Factory tops have about the same amount of metal exposed on the top as they do on the "A" Pillars... On the C&C tops the exposed metal is about twice as wide behind the windshield..

It is kind of apparent in the pictures that GTA50 posted, but not as obvious as if it were taken more from the side of the car..

John...

 

I cannot imagine being a new-car buyer back then, and spending over $20,000 on my new car and letting an aftermarket company cut 2 big friggen holes in my roof and put aftermarket t-tops in. The factory ones were/are notorious for squeaks and rattles...I cannot imagine aftermarket ones had any better reputation....

I've been selling cars for 11 years...I have never met an aftermarket sunroof I liked, even these days. I can't imagine aftermarket t-tops!

 

From reports that I have heard, the C&C tops actually were a little better than the factory tops as far as leaking... (until mid 1991 when the factory changed their seals)...

As far as the squeaking, and rattles... I dunno... They also had some neat options, like T-tops that would pop up like a sunroof. I found a set of those in a junkyard... I should have grabbed them in hindsight, but se-la-vie, that was 10+ years ago...

I find it funny that some people are talking about T-tops and whether or not they help the value of a 3rd Gen. Really I do not think they help or hurt, it really depends on the person. 50% of the cars from 1982 - 1992 had T-tops, so it is not a rare option by any means, there was some limited applicability for some years, with engine or rear axle ratio limitations, but for the most part, they are common.

As far as the C&C tops... Again, they are neither here nor there. If there were four identical cars, One Convertible, One Factory T-top, one hard top, and one C&C top... All equal condition, all the same colors, all the same price, same engine, the only difference was the top...

The Convertible would sell first, every time
The Factory T-top car would probably sell second
But the hard top vs the C&C top, it would be difficult to determine which would sell first.. to a person that knows, the Hard top would probably sell first, but someone that does not... the T-top would sell first. I do not think most people realize that they were available as an aftermarket option.



John

 

i tried to use this site but it said it could not find anything about my vin
here is my vin 1G1FP21F7HL139873

 

That's because GM didn't put the info into the computer until about 1990. GM Canada did, but that only applies to Canadian cars.

 

I agree with that..I personally like the ability to take off the tops on a nice cool sunny day...every hardtop car I've had there were those days I wished it had T's.

 

Actually the information used to exist, A few years back I called up GM and they were willing to tell me the number of Blue 1987 Formulas... But when I started asking if they would do some more for me she backed down... I have read that they purged the system about 5 years ago, for one reason or another, Ultimately there are other car lines out there going back to 1980 that you can get the information, but for some reason the F-body is NA, unless it went to Canada... Eh...

John

 

My 90 GTA 5.7L has T-Tops, but it isn't a CC1 car so they had to be added sometime after it was built. The car was 4 years old when I got it and don't know the history.

I have the standard GM T-Tops.. Whoever installed them did a good job. I have a friend who had a true CC1 black GTA. When we're parked side by side, the T-Top systems looked identical. There was no way to tell that mine were aftermarket... See image below: (Mine is the red one).

 

My 90 GTA 5.7L has T-Tops, but it isn't a CC1 car so they had to be added sometime after it was built. The car was 4 years old when I got it and don't know the history.

I have the standard GM T-Tops.. Whoever installed them did a good job. I have a friend who had a true CC1 black GTA. When we're parked side by side, the T-Top systems looked identical. There was no way to tell that mine were aftermarket... See image below: (Mine is the red one).

http://www.mts.net/~jwt/me-jay.jpg

Sorry for the double post.. Don't know how that happened

 

GTA Jim,
Looking at the pix, I would bet that someone got a top out of a junkyard, and welded it on... Do you have the door jamb wedge pieces at the top/back of the doors?

John

 

You are right John and one doesn't really appreciate the differences until seen in reality and compared. On the other hand, the other significant differences are the black "seal" that runs across the back of the t-tops and the difference in the "window seals". The other obvious difference is the C&C logo in the lower outside corner of the t-top.

I saw the t-tops on a '87 T/A at the wreckers and neglected to take a picture of the inside bracing - a very large "butterfly" bracket and many, many, many rivets. I've heard from some that the C&C t-tops had less leakage than the CC1..........

 

If anyone actually cares I have a C&C t-top car with no headliner in it I can take pics of

 

Sure! i would like to see the innerside of a C&C t-top roof to compare to
my factory CC-1 top car!

 

I'd like to see that as well. I've only seen a small part of mine when I installed an overhead console. That bracket was a nice surprise that made the install a little more challenging than anticipated.

 

The way the C&C tops are put in, the entire center section is cut out of the car, and the framework for the tops are then pop rivited into the inner skin of the roof. My '86 V6 car had them from the day I bought it, the company I bought it from had them installed before they put the car up for sale and the cost was around 1200 bucks. The car never leaked a drop. The '87 has them as well (used the glass out of the '86 when it got totalled) with new seals and still need to do a little adjusting and they shouldn't leak either (only leaks when it comes a really hard downpour).

On another note, any fox body Mustang you see that is a t-top car used C&C tops, installed at the factory.

 

I haven't forgotten to get pics, busy evening. Will try to get them tomorrow or this weekend.

 

I was told that C&C also did convertibles for the Mustang cars... They also made the Olds Cutlass vert, and the Chevy Beretta convertible prototypes that never made it into production. They also were responsible for the 1988 Pontiac Banchee concept, the Mini-Van (Chevrolet Lumina type, the ones that looked like a handi-vac) Concept, amongst other things, They were like ASC in a lot of ways...

I want to think they also did the T-tops for Pontiac's Fiero as well... I do not know who did the convertible Fieros tho, they might have done it on the side, but once again I do not know much about them...

C&C also made several T-top conversions for various cars, I know they made T-top conversions for the: 78-83+ Chevy Monte-Carlo, Olds Cutlass, Buick Regal & Pontiac Grand Prix
79-83+ Ford Mustang & Mercury Capri
77-80 Dodge Aspen, Plymouth Volare
80-83+ Dodge Mirada & Crysler Cordoba

C&C also made one of the first Notch-Back's for our cars.
John

 

Here they are, 1982 Trans Am. I suspect they were installed very early in the cars life from what I think I know about the history of the car.

I think the pictures are pretty self explanatory. These are only of the front but the rear looks basically the same. The headliner was still hanging on in the back and I didn't feel like removing it this evening.

 

One more

 

Another 91 B2L/C&C car on ebay right now and it's a beaut.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/One-t...b51dbc93#v4-39