the L92 heads flow about 345 on the intake side without porting and they're around $800 assembled. and with the L76 intake it flows almost just as well as the FAST intake for less than $500 complete from intake up so for less than $1500 you have a killer head cam upgrade for an LS2

 

Awe....are you offering me an LS2?

just messing. I wish you could run the L92/L76 stuff on the 346 blocks.

 

first off, i was sarcastically about the mixing of the OBD I and OBD II ECMs and respectable blocks they are used on (obviously its hard to relate this through a forum)

and as Tony89GTA was saying , its not like the TPI base would be stock, becuase stock is as you say "doggy doo". but i would use some crazy ported/siamesed runners and base along witht the plenum and then use that for the engine combo.

and thanks for schooling me on the LSx stuff, i dont know sh*t about cars, especially LS stuff (I thought that the intake on LS1 where short runners not long like the TPI).

And since the sarcasm couldn't be picked up on by yourself MRDUDE_1, i was simply trying to provide an unrealistic answer to an unrealistic question.

my true opinion is that you should swap to LS1 becuase they make TPI look stupid (in the making of power), so the only reason why you would keep the TPI is becuase: you didn't have the money , or you want the nostalgia/bragging rights or whatever it might be that makes you feel your car is special by keeping the TPI. And to solve the question you would just combine the two technolgies to satisfy both parties, but its unrealistic.

For example: if we we to ask which quartbacks are better white or black? and my answer would be to put a black mans legs and arms on a white mans torso and head and then you would have the best quarterback there is (not a racist, just the best example of the top of my head), this is unrealistic and not going to happen but it would satisfy both arguments.

so instead of getting on me becuase i am a newb and dont really know ****, try to recognize the overwhelming amount of unrealistic bulshit that i had posted earlier and that it was a joke, b*tch............(another j/k)

 

LOL!
not only is the whole "argument" a joke... but the SBC is as well...

and dont feel like i picked on you because you're a noob... i pick on everyone else that posts too.

 

oh bullshit... go dyno a LS1 that isnt broken.

heres a dyno sheet i litterally just pulled from my desk at work for you.
its a STOCK, no lid, no catback, nothing non-stock except the tires/rims....
this was dynoed on a rainy 89* day, september 9th, 2005.
2002 LS1, M6.... dynojet dyno. power corrected to STD.. actual output was higher..

note that from the start of the pull at ~1700, onward to 5.5, it has at least 300ftlbs.
thse are REAR WHEEL rumbers.... meanwhile you're comparing "internet flywheel" L98 to some jokers dynosheet...

(note, the two charts are identical, i just missed capturing the RPMs on the first pic)

 

This is closer to my friends dyno. He has a 2000 T56 Formula. He had a K&N air filter and a Loud Mouth catback. (no headers, just catback). He pulled right near 325 (324.something) and 348 tq at the rear wheels. He was happy. The next guy was a newer model Mustang GT with an intake, I think an exhaust and some other stuff and got 280s to the wheels

 

these threads are such a waste. everyone that has done a lsx, lt1 swap or built a l98 are going to stick up for thier setup and bash the others. the end all is how much money are you willing to spend? if it's unlimted than why woundn't you do a ls1 swap or for that matter a lt5 or ls7 swap? if you are on a budget you can do alot with a l98. When i hit the lotto i am going to have boyd build me a zz572 iroc!

 

meh, i think its more of a knowlege thing.

the more you know, the more you tend to lean for the better item. in this case, the genIII+ motors.


as far as budget... theres a minimum budget to have a fast car.
it takes just as much money to get a L98 to LS1 level performance with a T56, as it does to swap in a LS1/M6....

 

i wasn't talking about spending to get to a ls level. what i meant is be happy with what you can afford. if all you have to spend is a grand or so and have a l98 you can make it better of course you are not going to be at ls level. but if you have the jack and have your sights set on a ls than why wouldn't you go for it?

 

the answer would be:
because you're either stupid, or you just dont know... (aka ignorant)


and that goes back to the word knowledge, (that i misspelled above ).




edit:
also, after doing this for years and learning from it.... if you only have a thousand dollars, i wouldnt reccomend modifying the car to any moderate degree anyway.

 

true! but there are alot of guys like me that before you know it you have ls swap money invested in your l98. if i had all the money back that i invested in my engine i would do the ls1 swap. i like my setup but i have to admit a ls1 stuffed into a 3rd gen eng. bay looks cool.

 

Then, you've got people like me. The kind that have put around $5000 (in addition to purchase cost) into their cars and it's still slow as falling up a mountain.

 

you can always do what i did.
sell every SBC related thing you have... and buy an genIII+ pullout with that.


that just goes back to the knowledge thing. if you knew more when you spent the money, you would have spent it wiser... and would have gone faster for less...

 

Actually, I've spent the money wisely. I've accomplished what I wanted to do with the car so far. Before recently, I didn't know what I wanted to do engine wise. I've built the suspension, got the car looking the way I want it to, and got a nice stereo in it. I hate being so slow, but at least when I get the drivetrain done, I should be finished with this car. I just went for power last instead of first. But, you're right about the knowledge. If I had started spending money on power earlier, I would have spent in small amounts and had a headed cammed L05....ickie.

 

...

 

The way i see it is this fast is fast and cool is cool everbody knows a v8 f body is cool no matter whats in it and everybody knows that low 12s or better is fast so what the **** is the difference between a 10 second turbo l98 and a 10 second blown lsx powerd thirdgen? if you like it thats all that matters

but on a personal note **** LS1 Im soo sick of seeing every douchbag with rich parents or family that can hook them up with a good job driving a shop built ls1

 

yea, fast is fast, and cool is cool.... but 12s are not fast... and spending 5k to drive a 12second car is not cool.

nothing.
but theres a huge difference between a civil well mannered 11sec car that my mom could drive to the store, and a shaking peaky "beast" that runs the same 11sec.....

one is a quick, and very enjoyable street car.. the other is a wannabe race car thats incapable of race car speed.... but it has all the drawbacks.

i dont know a single person with a "shop built LS1"..... everyone i know has done it themselves.

btw, the cost of a LS1 swap is cheaper then the cost of modding the SBC to go the same speed.... if you do things yourself... you know. hotrodding.

since you're jealous of them, im sure it must be because you cant do it yourself....im sure it must suck being unable to do things yourself..... i dont mean having the money to do it.. i mean having the raw willpower and determination, to do it. cant wire? learn. cant do this or that? learn. no money? work. learn. save. make it happen.
you get no pity from me.
i sold every SBC piece i bought since high school.
i drove a $200 toyota tercel for 6 months.
i made it happen
i got it done
and now i can sit back and laugh as you go "he paid a shop"....
a shop?
****, i didnt even have a garage at the time.. i drove over 30miles each way to a friends CARPORT (not even a garage) to do my swap.
id leave work, spend an hour and fifteen mins in traffic in a toyota tercel... get there, ork on the car till it was just to cold to move my fingers, then drive the hour home.
almost everyday, until it was done.

dont give me a pu$$y a$$, i cant afford it excuse. you want it? you complaining? you're a wuss.

 

Well, the amount of money put into a turbo L98 to get it to 10 sec, you could have a low 9 sec LSx powered thirdgen, without sacraficing economy and still be able to run on pump gas with lots of boost.

You don't have to spend alot of money to get an LSx based motor to run fast, little porting, bigger cam and you are well over 400hp at the wheels.

Plus......they love the bottle.

 

internet flywheel? do you not know what WTQ is?? that stands for wheel tq which is what i was talkin about... at the wheels power.

yeah that LS1 makes 300lb ft all the way thru and thats very nice to have. and a peak of 328. i seen L98's dyno over 300 wheeeeeel torque stock with stock heads and stock intake that flow like pooooop compared to LS1, and with a weaker camshaft. L98 heads flow 190's cfm while LS1 flows 240-250. TPI intake has over 16 inches of runners to the Ls1's 6inch or w/e it is. LS1 may make flatter torque, but it still in some cases cant match the lowend of the TPI cuz the TPI peaks in the lowend and thus is making more tq and power than LS1 with engine componets that SUCK at making power. thats impressive. get gears and torque converter to match that torque curve and you have a car that can come off the line harder. Go bolt on to bolt on, a L98 is hard to beat in the torque department.

i agree tho that TPI for horsepower is pointless. it simply cant feed the rpms that make horsepower.

doubtful.. you can make a small block really fast with boost with the right components for cheaper than LS1. its always been cheaper. LS1's are not cheap. 800 dollar headers, 500-900 dollar intakes, expensive internals, expensive heads. its gettin abit cheaper i suppose than what it was a few years ago, but still expensive.

puttin a ls1 into a thirdgen cost more than most think. theres an extra grand or two in there in swap components to get LS1 to work..even if doin the work yourself.

and a turbo small block is every bit as streetable as a LS1. John Meany has or had a 1300hp twin turbo C4 vette that was very streetable. docile even. its all in how u build it. turbo cars in general are docile till the boost comes on.

i still dont see the benefit to doing a LS1 swap over a Gen I, unless your goin for high n/a power or a high n/a nitrous combo. thats where those heads will shine. you dont need 300cfm heads for 400hp daily driver...but if you want 500-600n/a hp and good driveability then LS1 is the man. boosted applications it dont matter really. you have to build a solid shortblock for boost anyway and LS1 will cost more to go forged than gen I. so Gen I is lookin better there.

the only other LS1 advantages are its lightweight, and the exhaust note sounds amazing, which in itself are great reasons to go LS1 over gen I

 

show me they chart then. the dyno. the proof. we all have the LS1 graphs, wheres your stock L98 graph?
oh yea..... they're just numbers found on the internet. you dont know anyone that dynoed a stock L98. you dont have a graph.
guess who does.
its not sitting in the drawer next to me (i just had that one by chance) but i have a box somewhere at home with one in it.

until you have some form of data....a chart, graph, dynofile, ect.... dont say anything else on it.



yea.. you're talking PEAK numbers again..
hey champ... go look at an L98 dyno.. the numbers start at a 2something-something... peak at a 300 number.. then they're right back at a 2something-something...
meanwhile the LS1 peaks at a 325ish number. it was 328 above, but lets not be too specific.
the TPI torque kick you love is a result of there being no torque, then a quick shot of power that kicks you back, then it dying off again. you can see this in a dyno.

and for the record the LS1 uses a tuned, intake port length of 15 inches. whereas L98s uses a 21in. long runner

also for the record.... the 11sec and 10 second stock internal LS1s leave the line at 4 to 6 grand and sixty foot in the 1.4s and below.
thats more REAL rear wheel torque then any L98 has ever put down... regardless of gearing... this is do to POWER. not horsepower. not torque, but raw energy.

btw, bolton for bolton, the L98 loses worse.
it doesnt gain much torque from longtubes or headers... the LS1 does.
it doesnt gain much torque from a new air inlet... the LS1 does. (lid)
it doesnt gain much torque (matter of fact, it loses some in most cases)a diffrent intake manifold... the LS1 does.
what boltons are you talking about?


i totally agree with this.. the major costs of the turbo build will be the same for either motor... and the end result may have diffrent pressures, but the cars will be identical in that they're docile to drive, and push the same power.
the more restrictive SBC will have a higher boost pressure, but thats not really what matters... they flow the same CFM.

comparing apples to apples, the LS1 is cheaper.
$600 for ceramic coated longtubes for either one. (really, they're $750 for the SBC, but you shouldnt be paying retail, so i'll assume you can get a deal)

the intake you dont have to change. even if you did, (and the FAST is a POS btw) its the same as any SBC EFI intake cost.
the internals are identical in price..
the heads are cheaper for the LS1.

you just dont know jack **** about the pricing because you dont own one.


now, you go compare some cast SBC pistons to forged LS1s and bitch about the price... or compare uncoated shorty headers to coated longtubes.. but they arnt real comparisons. they're just an example of ignorance of the parts.

you're so wrong. its cheaper then what most think. its cheaper then what peopel post on here.... IF (and this is key) IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.
that said... ive DONE IT.
not my friends.
not some guy i see online.
ME.
multiple times.
i get calls at 8pm from people asking me random LS1 **** that i can answer off the top of my head.... do i expect everyone to do this? no.
but dont sit there and tell me what i have done, and continue to do is impossible. or even that its hard.
you havent done it.
i have.
who the hell are you? lol.


you dont see it because you dont know **** about it.

thoes are shitty reasons.

how about 6bolt mains, bottom ends that take 550rwhp, heads that can support more stock then your $2,000 afrs can, EFI that works great and is easy, stock windage trays, no gaskets to replace for most things.. cam swaps without pulling the intake or touching a distributor.. spark hot enough stock that it can light off 6second FI cars...... the list goes on.

 

Yep. Big difference. However, some people would rather have a shaking rumbling loud as crap beast as opposed to a mild mannered car that ran the same speed. My car isn't a daily driver. I like the noise. I like the lope. Now if it's tooo slow, then it's no better than a honda with a fart pipe, but I like the emotional feel of a big ole choppy sounding V8, even if it's not totally necessary. "knowledge" would tell you to go LSx, but the intangibles (IMHO) lean to the L98! Again, this is personal, and there's really no right answer.


Um, that might not be quite how I would've put it, but I "sorta" agree. If ya WANT it, then you can make it happen. I'm not saying I could do the LSx swap myself, but in the past two years, I've learned about 90% of it from Thirdgen.Org alone. I wouldn't think of paying someone else. I've done all the work on my L98, and there's NO feeling like cranking over a motor you put together........and most LSx motors don't even NEED a rebuild. Heck, throw a carb on it and forget about the wiring/computer aspect!!! Mr Dude may have come across a little harsh, but I agree with him.

 

you can always overcam it... put a TSP Giant Cam or a Magic Stick... it'll sound like a pro stocker, and run even faster then with the smaller cam... its just at that point you're trading off drivability, and MPG for only a slight increase in power.
personally, if you're only shooting for mid11s in a LS1, id stick with a cam in the 224 to 228 @.050 range.... but i like to daily drive my toys.

you're right in that, from a non-technical standpoint, someone might want to keep the L98... but from any technical point of view, with emotions aside, you're essentially comparing something better in every way with something old and outdated, even for its time.

sometimes reality is harsh.

 

ok time to school you. do you really think i would have pulled 261 at 4000rpms out my ***?? dont make assumations on me. i do have a chart...click the link in my sig to my pics..theres a chart in there. but two problems with it, i had my EST wire disconnected i think...the engine light was on and i noticed the wire dissconnected like a week or two after. i think i forgot to plug it back in when i was playin with timing before dyno day.

your probly too busy playin around in the LSx forum to see the many dyno numbers ppl post in the TPI boards.
one guys fresh L98 made 230whp at 4300-4400rpms and 329.4 lb/ft @ 3200 rpm.
what he said about it since he didnt have a scanner to scan the chart.
"It was making 300+ lb/ft from 2500 to 4000 rpm, and looks like it would have been 250+ @ 2000 rpm still if it went that low (starts at 2300)."

89irocz350tpi made 249whp/334lbft with fulll bolt ons, and remember this is thru an auto trans.
many other L98's dynoing 300-320wtq stock. not bad for high mileage cars and auto trannies.

guys 6spd corvette put down 251 RWHP/341 RWTQ with headers/air intake. no tune tho. still some great numbers.

and this is comparing auto cars with poor heads and cam to Gen III's with bigger cam and heads, with only 5 inches of runner difference. auto LS1's dyno 300-310wtq as well i seen. manuals are usually 10-15 higher it looks like


this is very true...the only reason i brought up the TPI's numbers was cuz you said at EVERY point in the curve, the LS1 torque is higher...not necessarily the case... it just so happens that the peak L98 torque rpm is alot lower than the LS1's rpm, so at that point on the graph, the LS1 is NOT higher. i know, i know that is a dumb arguement to even bring up but its true on L98 cars. i dont even know why i wasted ur time in this.

how do they measure that by the way... just lookin at a LS1 manifold i dont see how the runners are 15 inches. LT1's are 3 and that you can see, its very short.

if it were possible for a L98 to have the hp to go 11's and 10's, then yes, it would make more torque. but i seen a few ppls numbers on this site making 500lbft torque easy on 383+ TPI motors. but dont run low 11's or 10's. they dont make the power. that 440whp heads/cam LS1 might make 400wtq peak and run low 11's high 10s.....but an L98 can make more torque still. thats what TPI does...its makes torque. throw TPI on a healthy 383-406 and an LS1 will have a hard time matching that torque output.

what are u talkin about? sure the ls1 makes nasty torque and hp with bolt ons. my buddies bolt on car (aka catback/lid/tune) made 333whp/348wtq. an L98 with full bolt ons can match that with tune. most typical l98 dyno numbers are on high mileage cars and auto trans. low mileage units and T56/T5's i'd bet you'd see some big numbers...just like that STOCK L98 with full exhaust vette with the 6sp i posted above. good torque there.


bullshit, i talked to many ppl about the swap and the swap componets to make it go down are some dollar. nickel and dimes you. when u put in a LS1 into a thirdgen, you cant just use 4th gen headers... hawks makes 1300 header/ypipe combo that in some cases doesnt even fit good.

and NO sbc headers coated are more like 550-600 at most...NOT 750..where u get that number from?

and a forged LS1 rotating assembly from eagle is around 2100-2200 with decent JE pistons....from what i seen. GEN I eagle kit is as low as 1700-1800. summit has it for 1939 i think which seems higher than other sites offer it. just a few hundred bucks but its abit more money. nickels and dimes man.


well could you sometime give me an idea of what you spent...cuz apparently alot of ppl are doing something the wrong way....... what you do for cooling? exhaust? trans to handle that 11 second motor? or if you used T56, what crossmember you use?
its all that other stuff that goes into it where the cost adds up. not everyone can fab their own stuff.



bottom ends might take 550whp but i wouldnt want to run that for long without good rod bolts. many a car bottom end let loose with less power than that. my buddies killed out with only 400whp. arp rod bolts FTW!!
reving a cammed ls1 to 6800 rpms puts alot of stress on those rods and rod bolts.

and about stock LS1 heads.... i seen a few 195 cc afr's out of the box make big numbers. again, my buddies 406 went high 10's at 125-127 in a mostly full weight 87 trans am and the cam wasnt that big for a solid roller and a 406. thats gotta be upwards of 470-500whp. and thats with 195ccs where it would like to have a 220 head. not bad for a 23 degree head. i never seen stock LS1 heads on bigger motors but the most power i seen was 450whp on stock 346 with huge cam and tune. fastest cam only car with T rex cam... but it seems to be rare to get near that number with a 346 and trex cam only from what i read.

 

I have a total of $6000 invested in my car I started with a $4200 california body the engine has since been replaced I run a traction limited 12.8 at a 2.1 60 ft with out ANY tuning on GM iron heads no less


I'm sorry but Im building my car for me and as far as Im concerned the shaking peaky "beast" is alot more fun of an experience regardless of how more "uncomfortable" it is if you wanna nice ride by a vette or a cadillac

my car is more than capable of going 11s on nitrous (not going that route personally) and it runs colder than my broters C5 and drives almost as smooth and cost me a third of the price


I dont think i ever said you had a shop built LS1 I said Im sick of people that spend mommy and daddys money and take there car to shops to get built cause there too ****in inept to do it themselves when you live 20 minutes from Speed INC. you see more than your share of them

I do all my own work on my car thank you very much and for what I have in it theres no way I could have put an LS1 in that would have any where near the milage of my current engine (under 6000)

Did I once say anything about me not having the money or knowledge to do it ? how far is you head jammed up your *** that you extrapolate me crying about what I cant do I have more than enough will power and determination to do whatever I need to my car just because I dont agree with what you did to yours doesent make me a swirl of self loathing and deprication



I dont want your pity you can cram it as far up your *** as you please I work on my car outside uncovered in whatever weather I get (my god I must be a huge badass)

I need no excuses I dont want an LS1 plain and simple and wuss hardley just of a different opinion not everybody gets great deals on LS1 tear outs and wants to put a high mileage engine in there car my .02$

You get no pity from me

 

I hate nutswinging but I know for a fact Turbo Tpis car was built for next to nothing on stock rods and crank and I have personally seen it run 10s on a stock base bottom 11s on pump gas with GM heads


dont have to spend alot of money? Last time I checked an ls1 cam kit was like 800+ depending on the valve spring package and I personally have never seen 400WHP dont on an LS1 that easy (not to say it hasent been done) but Ive seen a car built with TSP ported LS6 heads a T-Rex and fresh rings do just barely over 400 (LS1 intakes will kill you) only to have a rod give up the ghost less than 4 months later

 

Ooook.. This thread was goin along pretty good. Now its an LS1/L98 pissing contest. Why does that always happen? The level or arogance sky rocketed, and the level of respect for each other as car enthusiests is goin down...

I think the bottom line here is...L98 are still a good motor. Yes they make ok power stock. Yes you can build them for fairly cheap and make decent power. Yes you can spend a lot on them and have a killer motor. The LS1 is in a whole nother category. The technology is literally over 10 years advanced.... They cant be compared.

Ill NEVER....NEVER...take anything away from anyone that wants to build a L98. I was going to put one in place of my LB9 there for awhile... Then I made the change of ideas to the LS1, mainly because the deal was good and fell in my lap.

And this whole mommy/daddy's money vs. earned money is bs as well. WHO CARES? If your parents want to give you money to work on your car, great. Youre lucky! Does that make you any less of a gear head than me? Heck no. Holy crap folks... we are all trying to accomplish the same thing. We want a car that we can be happy with.

Ok...my bad on the rant. And Ill probably get a flame or two tossed at me for it... Just didnt like the tone the thread was taking. Words like idiot, stupid, dumb idea, etc etc... They dont describe the differences between the two power plants.

Haha I suggested this on a 4th gen board, where we were having a civilized discussion about which generation handled better... Seemed like we had a good amount of people that voted that the 3rd gens could handle better... But I think we should have a gathering of f-bodies. Have different categories. Stock vs stock...modified vs modifed... race prep vs. race prep etc. And do all the tests. Drag, auto-x, road course, maybe some dyno runs. That'd be so much fun.

J.

 

This thread was cool there for a little, but people are starting to take things a little too personal.

$5000 may be 2 weeks pay to one, and 2 years to another, so you can't really start putting an "opinion" on what is "expensive". For that matter, most all of us have hook-ups of one form or another. Also, you don't have the right to call yourself a hot-rodder, if you simply pay full price for everything. I've found used parts, take-outs, discontinued parts, group purchases, and made friends with wholesalers. ANYTHING can be found cheap if ya take the time to look. Last but not least, this is a hobby. Nobody NEEDS AFR heads for their car. It's all "extra", so if ya want an LS1, but can't afford it, keep saving, get an extra job, and search the internet. Is the LS1 more expensive? I think that typically it is, but that's not an excuse IMHO. Do it or don't. How bad do you want it?

....I'm really interested to see you guys settle the LS1/L98 torque issue. You have my attention.

 

Well WTF I just went through all 20 pages in this post http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281398 where the hell is all these low 11's high 10's LS1's ? All I see are a bunch of dyno queens, and for the ones that do post there times there only high 11's and everywhere in the 12's and this is from guys with there 400+whp cars From the way some of you guys are talking I was expecting to see way better times on average then that. Only guys doing 10's and low 11's are the ones with blowers, nitrous or big cubes. From my assessment of things these guys are doing on average 2-4mph more then what a good head, cam and stealth/mini/superram are doing at the track but the times are about the same. I got to say I'am not very impressed at all.

 

this is good reading material.

I hope in the end though you guys arent really that pissed at each other...lol

 

You have to remember, Tony, that the 4th gens are around 200-600 lbs heavier than 3rd gens. That could account for the differences in ET.

The cam kits for LS1s aren't $800. You can get a set of heads (assembled with .650 max springs) that flow 312 and any cam that is offered at Texas-Speed for 1659, and with a good tune, LS6 intake, and exhaust, you should see something in the 400-450 RWHP, depending on several factors including altitude ASL.

I don't see what the point in argueing about power is. I mean, you can install exhaust, heads, cam, work the intake, replace the runners on a L98 (or just ditch it for some better aftermarket intake), and make 300-350 hp at the wheels. And, I'll even give it that the torque'll probably be more low end. Or, you can swap in a LS1, and get similar numbers, if it's a good LS1. The prices will near be the same, because you'll have to replace the transmission for the L98 in order to keep it from gernading. Then, you can do exhaust, install a LS6 intake (if it doesn't already have one), heads, cam and be in the 400-500 rwhp range. I know that this will cost more, and will probably be more of a headache, but you're making 100-150 more horsepower at the wheels with a front end that is more than 100lbs lighter. I'll pay a little more and have more of a headache for that.

The L98 is a good engine. It's just not really a performance engine in todays world. Nothing against it, but it is 20 years old.
As for making more torque below 3500....if it does, so what? It'll make lower end torque, and beat the LS1 car to the 60'. And the LS1 car will procede to pull away at an increasing rate.

 

yeah if you build the LS1 to 400whp then you'd have to upgrade the 4L60E too, or if you go T56, you gotta pay for swap stuff and do a auto to manual conversion since L98 cars are auto only. also need a better clutch.
but a 700r4/4l60E can handle some power for alittle while.

true... but generally cost of parts new to new, the GEN I aftermarket is bigger and has more parts to choose from and are generally cheaper. but LS1's have been gettin cheaper thats for sure.

 

Average weight for those cars I have researched was 3320-3450, hell my GTA weighed in at 3550 stock So you can throw that theory out the window.

 

Tony...what does that thread have to do with anything anyway? The POINT of that thread was how much rear wheel power people were making... It was a curiousity thread. How else can you know rear wheel horsepower? Gotta get on the dyno. Why does that make them dyno queens? My car is a daily driver, and the motor went 11.62 @115 when it was in a 4th gen vert (read heavy)... It hasnt seen a dyno yet. But it will. Its called tuning. Dyno sheets are a byproduct of being on the dyno to tune. There are a lot of guys over on LS1tech that drive the **** out of their cars and will back up the talk. Just because they happen to have dyno numbers, doesnt mean they are all dyno queens. Granted, there are a few cars that probably see the dyno more than the track. But hey...thats what they built the car for, then thats what makes them happy.

No disrespect or anything...and not trying to be a jerk. I just didnt see the relevance of that thread to the point you were trying to get across.

As for the transmissions...I broke my 700R4 with my 305 TPI... I wouldnt go back to that trans for anything now. 4L60E is alittle better. But T56 is where its at. Im so glad I went with that trans instead of staying auto. Whats a stock T56 good for? 600 ft-lbs or something like that? Upgrading the clutch is no big deal. There are expensive ones out there...but there are affordable ones out there too.

Stevo...I doubt anyone is actually pissed at anyone. Some people express themselves alittle different than others as all. Anytime you have that there is bound to be alittle tension here and there...

Justin

 

Oh and the weight thing...I always thought that the 4th gens were heavier. Not much heavier, but still. But I never researched it...So if Tony's figures are correct, then yeah the weight thing can be thrown out.

P.S... (off track for a sec) Tony I just checked out your cardomain page. That launch pic is friggin nuts.... Gotta love our thirdgen front suspension droop that makes an offroad rig jealous. haha.

 

On average a 3rd gen with a 4th gen engine should weigh 100 lbs less than a 4th gen with the same engine. Simliar optioned cars of course. Its not that big of difference though.

 

I dont want to be getting into a pissing match here but look http://thunderracing.com/catalog/?ac...&vid=3&pcid=51
ls1 cam kit with dual valvesprings $799

And yes 400-450 horse with ls6 intake which not all ls1s have

and as far as old tech not being up to snuff I dare anybody in here to call a chrysler hemi or a big block chevrolet an out dated performance engine and that technology is 40+ years old

the truth of the matter is that an LS1 is a standard SBC race motor in a new packaging thats more computer friendly thats all it is its still a pushrod V8 all the major changes that allow it to make more power are in the heads and intake which (with enough investment) could be put into a top end package for mass production for SBC all it would take would be some big cylinder heads with a valve angle adjustment some big sommma bitch ports an intake to fit it and custom pistons and camshaft (which alot of people buy anyway)

 

Don't worry were all friends here bud

Basically what I was getting at was in that 20 page thread there are a lot of guys that have times in there sig (wish there were more) and I was kind of expecting to see a big difference between what a LSX can do to a SBC1 on average and unfortuntly it was not there. Don't get me wrong if I ever had the chance to pick up a LS1 for a decent price I would be all over it

Now that I think about it I was more pissed at having to read through 20 pages then what the times were

Thanks! I have a good camera man

 

That's why you don't buy the spring/cam combo. You just get the heads and cam.
But, how much would a comparable set of springs and a good cam cost for Gen I engine?
And there is more differences in the LS_ than just heads, and intake. They are six bolt mains, the firing order is different, the internals are lighter stock, and a whole slew of other things.
And the old big blocks and Hemis are out-dated. Still very powerful, but out-dated.

 

go for it.
so what you're saying is.. you have facts, but they dont show much in the way of performance, but thats ok because you had your timing advance disconnected???

im not quite seeing it.... i mean.. the numbers to be proud of for a V8 5.7L performance motor... i see what looks like a good truck motor to haul a track car... but im not seeing much else from that.

any hp number that starts with a 2, isnt a great number... but once more, that does sound like a nice truck powerband...

LS1s have smaller cams. the heads are not "bigger", they're just totally different....
and saying "only 5 inches of runner difference" is an extreme display of your ignorance on the subject of runner length and its effect on the engine. that is a HUGE diff.

LT1s do not have a tuned length runner.
look INSIDE a LS1 intake, and you'll see how. air is pulled from the center plenum from the bottom on the oppisate side of the motor from the port... it goes up and around, like a candy cane.
think of it this way..take a candy cane (it is christmas time afterall) and point the long part toward the runner, with the curved part hanging down.
thats the basic shape of the LS1s runners.
from the outside, you can only see the top, not the rest of it.
(see attached pic i was nice enough to grab for you)


and that same 383-406 will have a hard time making 400hp...
TPI is a choke.
the only redeeming factor is its tuned runner length.. while the runners are a POOR DESIGN.. and CHOKE EVEN A STOCK 5.7 motor... (hell it chokes the 305) they are the correct LENGTH.

this goes back to the importance of runner length for tuning... the only torque benefit you're seeing is from the runner length...

just remember this... torque at the flywheel does not move the car.
the torque at the wheels does.
this means that its the power, lets say, wattage, of the motor that moves the car.. because you can always use gearing/stall/ect to move the engine RPM to match peak output.

this is another example of why i hate the words torque and horsepower. they're meaningless without additional info, and they confuse the issue of whats actually moving the car, since they use the same terminology for totally separate concepts.
i have yet to see one match it.
ever.

i made 381rwhp with the stock manifolds thru a crimp bent Ypipe into a stock 99z28 muffler..... so im not going to argue that you need headers.... just like you dont need tubular kmembers, you dont need 90% of the crap people buy..
but if you do want headers..... guess what? im running some 4thgen ones. i figured some stuff out, and when the time comes, i'll probly sell a few sets on here.
hawks sells overpriced crap..but the headers themselves are priced right inline with everyone elses stainless steel headers.... heres a tip... want cheap headers? dont get stainless steel ones.

as for the nickle and diming to death.... like i said, you cant say ****.
ive been there and done that for several projects... if you THINK and dont just buy crap, it doesnt kill your budget.

that would be a joke from a current thread. if its not in new posts, do a search on my name, it'll be near the top.
im positive the two intended readers laughed at it. LOL.

less then 3k gets me a new block, new steel crank, forged shortblock.. assembled with warranty...
you can mix and match parts to get whatever numbers make you happy... but honest to god, the LS1 is the same damn price.

btw, if you're still buying parts and comparing prices to summit racing.... then you have no idea how the aftermarket parts industry works.
big companies like that are the worse place to buy from. they have advertised prices, they dont negotiate, and they have high overhead.


cooling... the stock 91z radiator is one of the best ones you can put there... it fits perfect, and its free.
exhaust... stock manifolds work into the 400rwhp area.. meaning you can have a HUGE performance upgrade now, without buying them... muffler shops build Y-pipes cheap. or do it at home.
that 3k price tag INCLUDES the trans that can handle the motor. the T56 or the 4L60E ( btw, that trans can go all the way in the 10s without issue... and with a good tuner, it'll last years without any kind of a internal hard part upgrade.. [i dont count a stall as a internal trans mod btw])
its the T56 thats the real bitch.. clutches arnt cheap, and **** breaks.
for a crossmember im using a modified drews. although for the other cars, ive used spohn, SPD, and then started making my own... before you say anything, realize that you do actually have to do some work to save money. if you cant weld, you can still cut fit and mark parts and have someone else weld.. you can make it happen. that "i cant do that" or "i dont know" crap doesnt fly with me. dont know? learn. cant do? you're not trying hard enough, find a way.
thats how you save money... nothing like hearing people bitch about the cost, then finding they spent $700+ on wiring and $200 on a crappy crossmsmber that will need to be cut anyway.

the easy solution to that is to not rev the **** out of it.
that said, ive spun my 02 to 6400 daily for 2+ years now (going on 3)
i have friends that do the same.
most spun rod bearings are from oiling issues.. the main problem with the LS1.

jason (one of my best friends) has a 383 with stock heads and a TSP Giant Cam.
it got 23mpg on his last road trip home for the holidays. then he came back, and ran a 6.97@97 like it was nothing... this was the first real time hes been to the track since the shortblock swap.
he hit it like it was nothing too.. too bad they didnt let him run again, but he didnt have a rollbar, or a race jacket.

i do like how you're comparing a stock head and stock displacement LS1 to a 406 with $2,000 AFR heads (hey thats almost your LS1 and transmission swap/upgrade right there)

the heads are great. theres no denying it.
btw, you cant compare the CCs of each head directly.. they're totally diffrent designs. its pointless and kinda ignorant.


if you were a drag racer, that would be embaressing. a honda shoudlnt be able to out 60ft you.

good for you.
have fun in cali. LOL.
btw, im sure im having just as much fun as you.

and my car is mroe then capable of going mid 10s on nitrous.

im not stupid, so i dont run my car "colder"... but whatever.??

(i really dont get the point of this statement... you COULD do something?? it runs colder like its a good thing???)

yea thats life. was there a point, or are you just b!tching?

id take a 100,000 mile LS1 drivetrain over your engine.
why?
because after each car has driven by the end of the day, they'e both just used cars.
and they both are likely to still have the crosshatch on them..

 

then stop crying and go do something... why do you give a **** what someone else is doing with their daddys money?


lol, as you can tell, i dont give much pity on here.. so dont worry about it.

you can do whatever the hell you want.
just dont go talking drag times like you've done something worthwild....
engine and everything drivetrain related aside, you have a car that cant 60'.
that alone is hurting you more then anything else.
maybe you dont want a drag car.. thats fine... but i dont see you racing anything else either.
you just have another thirdgen with some parts thrown on it thats not good for much other then dicking around on the street... maybe thats what you want, maybe it isnt.. i do hope you're happy with it... but dont go talking **** about things like you're right there with the rest of us.
your car is slower. you obviously dont like LS1 swaps... so why the hell are you here?

oh noes. i cant go on. err... wait, who the hell are you anyway?

lol.. it happens because theres an emotional bond people have with whatever they own. what they own, has to be right. in their own mind, they have to justify it.

well, they can be compared in some ways... its just that people get pissed about the results... afterall, one motor cant beat their motor in every catagory, can it? lol.
so things then get non-technical.. and then its just opinons, and then its just a pissing contest with no real facts.. like the guy i replied to in this post above you.
nothing he said had any real technical merit other then the cost spent and the facts of what his car ran at the strip.

i would. i would try to talk them out of it.
why swap to another SBC....ever?
no matter what one you get, you need to change everything on it to get it to modern performance levels...
crank, rods, pistons, rings, lifters, cam, valvesprings, heads, rollerrockers, intake, pushrods.... it all adds up to something thats just plain stupid for a street car.

i dont mind them as long as they dont pretend to do it themselves...
i know plenty of people that pay others to do things.... because they cant. they dont have the time, ect... but they arnt totally ignorant either.
besides, its people like them that pay people like me to do what i like to do.

lol, true.... but its how some of us talk bluntly.

thirdgens do have the supeiror front suspension design.

dont worry about me.. im not taking anything personal.. and im not saying anything personal to anyone.. so dont take it that way.
hell, after i post this, i may goto another thread with teh same people in it and actually be helpful. LOL.
exactly.
if you're that second person where 5k is two years pay.... you cant afford to play.
either fix that by going to school, working, or doing something.... or decide you dotn want it that bad.
but dont bitch about it online.

the issue is...... nothing.
they both can make more and more torque until the TPI becomes a restriction at its tuned runner length.
at that point, it chokes itself, and the LS1 will make more.

but you would be stupid to mod either motor to make power that low... if you're building a performance car.

now if you want a truck... thats a great idea.. because a truck just sits at that RPM down the hwy with a heavy load.... by optimising its efficenty where its actually working... you'll have power and save MPG...

look in the timeslip area.
or go look in the 11sec club area.

im not going to spend a hour finding crap on there that you can easily find yourself.
of course theres more 12sec cars then 11sec ones..... thats because theres a ton of guys like our 2.1 sec wonder above. just because you have the power, doesnt mean you know how to use it.

im not. i cant speak for anyone else.

hes looking in the wrong places. i didnt even bother clicking the link. you can tell by the URL.
if you dont mind used parts, less then $300 will get you a cam, 918s, and pushrods. otherwise, expect around $500.
btw, thats all you need. no gaskets unless you tear one...or have a 97/98.
you dont need heads for 400rwhp. 01+ Fcars come with the LS6 intake.. and you can easily hit 390rwhp with the stock manifolds.
for altitude, i assume only slightly above sea level, since thats where most of the country is... if you live in denver..... you'll just have to learn to adapt to the fact that everyone else will be faster.

 

the fact that they're still stuck on the power is just a show of how little they know about the motor.
it is litterally the easiest V8 to work on. theres so many little great things about it, i dont know where to start.
so i'll talk about the bad.
the oiling system sucks.
thats a big killer right there...
other then that... i cant think of a way its not better.
actually, it wont beat it on the 60'
niether the L98 nor the LS1 should be below 3500 when launching at the dragstrip.

how long is a little while?
i know the 4l60e in the LS1 will have a longer little while then the 700r4.
i know guys who raced for years, and their little while is still going....

btw, assuming you get the clutch and stuf with the pullout.. the only additional cost for the t56 swap would be the pedals themselves, the clutch start switch, and some wire/connectors.
hardly something to argue about overall...
i do agree on the better clutch... and for a drag car, id recomend a 9" too.. manuals with power can be brutal to a drivetrain.
the SBC aftermarket for parts of equivelent speed/power as the genIII is about the same.... and cost the same (or more when you add in the fact that you usually have to upgrade several things, not just the one part)

umm... your point?
it has fuggin Ti retainers... new seats and valve seals.. along with the rollercam springs and pushrods.

this is another obvious example that you dont know about the parts you're talking about.

now look at the cost of 918s (no locks or retainers) a cam, crankbolt, and pushrods.

oh. and intake swaps are soooo hard.
LOL.
its litterally a bolt on. no goop. no gaskets. the orings are seated in the manifold.
unbolt the old, bolt on the new. i could do it faster then you could pull the top half of a TPI off.
the fact is... they arnt 40+ years old.
you want to race a BBC today? you WILL be using heads designed on a modern PC.

you want to run 13s with a big block? then use the crap they tossed on them 40 years ago.

thats the facts.

yes, you can make a SBC perform like an LS1. a SBC 2.2 setup would absoluely kill in every aspect.

now go look at the cost. i'll wait.............
.
.
.
.
exactly.

not everyone uses what they have to anywhere near its full potential... think of how many guys you've seen on here with all the mods.. yet run 12s. or 13s.
----------
because that would make too much sense.

the cams are identically priced.
the springs... well you can use identical part numers.... except for modern beehive springs, the SBCs need diffrent locks and retainers too.
pushrods are ~100 for either motor.

there are ALOT of things.
alot of them, i dont expect most people here to catch.

 

LOL i thought you'd get a kick out of that

yeah i ran it at the track with the EST wire disconnected. still managed a 1.79 60, but ran 14.0 at 94. with it connected i went 13.63 at 97 on a 1.75 60 foot but this was with 3.42's and not the 3.27's. but i did go 13.79 at 97-98 in the summer with the old 3.27's on a 1.80 60. but my car still made good torque thru a unlocked converter on the dyno and with that est disconnected. too bad the run only started readin 3900 rpms on. TPI peaks at 4200 or so. LMAO

yeah the horsepower is a joke..... but the torque is stout for what an L98 is. capable of matching stock LS1 in the 2500-3500 rpm range.


tell that to the 6 second pro mod guys hahah


is the LS1 cam smaller than 207/213 and .415/.430 lift?? might be on duration but certainly NOT on lift.

and by the heads i ment bigger cc runners and 18 degrees. i should have said BETTER instead of BIGGER. my fault




yeah hp isnt its thing, its the torque i was talkin about. it makes a ton of torque, on par with similar sized LS1's. but that doesnt mean anything, just that it has torque.


yep exactly. you cant really talk about hp and tq without other things...but in two similar cars with same gearing and such, i'd be curious how a 300whp TPI car vs a 300whp LS1 car would perform. that extra TPI torque would be interesting.

sweet, i'd be interested in those headers IF i actually do go LS1. i want to stay gen I for now since its easier for me and i just bought a spohn torque arm and cross member for my 700r4...and i'd like to keep it for awhile.
its good to know stock stuff is good flowing. i've always heard that but LS1s gain soo much on headers alone on stock motors that i wouldnt want to run stock mani's




no thats not what i was gettin at. but i do understand what your saying. i was just gettin two similar products from the same company to compare prices.




thats what i figured... i knew there would be alot of work involved...just like any other project.


yes thats what happened to my friends...bad bearings from poor oiling. but his car had a torquer II cam in it from TSP i believe, and it made power to 6500rpms and carried it thru 6800 where he shifted. car was an 11 second car if it had a better clutch than stock. lol


i'm just using that 406 as an example, as i never heard of any stock heads 370+cube motors in the LS1 world, but ill admit, i'm not on LS1 tech as much as i should be. its kinda dumb to do stock heads on a large motor like that since the gains from ported heads are substantial..so i guess thats why no one was doin it. there are other afr headed 350's and such making numbers. Traxxion went 11's on stock L98 shortblock with miniram and AFR's i believe.

 

I appreciate everyone’s enthusiasm for this discussion, but I did not mean to start an argument about which motor is better. I think most experts would agree that the LSx is the superior motor, taking advantage of the knowledge and supporting technologies gained over the past 20 years.

What I have read in this thread seems to support my assumption that those swapping the LS1 into their 3rd gens. are doing so after considering how much easier it is to extract impressive horsepower from the LS1.

I hope then that we can also agree that a person in my position could use the $7000 swap money to make my low mileage L98 capable of matching the stock LS1’s performance including reliability and drivability.

So the big question remains. Not knowing the least amount of money it would take to get an LS1 to 10.99 in the quarter. I’ll guess $5000. Are there no members able to discuss their actual streetable, reliable EFI L98 setups capable of 10.99 that they built for $12000 or less.

 

I've built them both and swapped them both.

TPI is fun, if you dont have the dough and want something different, its still cool and overall can be made decently fast. Its also what is there and is very well understood. From a weekend wrench bolt on guy, there is still a lot more to be had out of it. Depending on mods $ to $ it might be cheaper than an Ls1, it might be more. It would depend on how you want to measure it, vs. what u did.

LSx technology trounces the 50 yr old design by any measure you want to look at it realistically.

U can do a swap for proly $3k if u know what your doing with wiring assuming you can score an engine/trans/ecm for $2500. Will take some cutting and splicing, but it can be done.

However, for prolly 80% of the people on this board it is simply not cost effective. Especially if you start talking about paying someone to do it or you adding expenses in of custom harnesses, etc. If they cannot do all the work themselves or cannot afford the downtime that usually entails with swaps like this.

Although I'm still laughing at 10 sec 4L60e :-) *cough cough* Its been done, but it doesnt happen to often or realistically last that long like that, stock at least. (yes I agree, just cutting down the shift times in the stock programming prolly increase capacity 25% alone)

Its all in what u like, what u desire and what u consider fast.

Regardless of what people say here is "fast", in the real world on a daily driver basis, if you have something that can rip off mid 12's like you drive it to work, you can usually destroy 99% of the dips you would run into on the street.

Street racing? Forget it, your gonna need to pack alot more than that.

later
Jeremy

 

Well Dude Im sorry that my fastest time sheet came with one of my worst 60 fts ever whern you ride around on stock suspension and street tires (street car not track car) consistancy is just not there I have had it down to a low 1.9 FYI

Im also sorry that your too pissed off and fired up to have a civil conversation about anything Im thorugh mud slinging with you its not worth my ****ing time and If you could point out to me where I ever said I was against LS1 swaps or didnt like the LS1 engine I would be very suprised

and as far as SB2.2 set up yeah the cost is high but the return is enormus if you want a race car that or BBC is definatly the way to go IMHO and on that note if you cant get a BBC outta the 13 even on original GM heads you need to kill yourself

"have fun in cali" Where exactly where you going with that?

I never said LS6 intake was a hard install but its another expese and jsut for comparo costs right around what a HSR would

as far as it running cold In chicago durring the summer It gets hotter than a bastard and when you live in one of the most populated regions of the4 country you tend to get to sit in traffic jams I have NEVER tipped the high side of 170 no matter how long the car sat regardless of what you think its nice to know that my "rattley race motor" wont overheat

and as far as my car just being another thirdgen with parts thrown at it as you put it Who the **** are you to talk bad about my car I have not said one bad word about your ride yet you feel a need to stoop to that level of mud slinging why? does it make you sleep better at night knowing that you have talked **** about a car you have never even seen before a car you know nothing about?

as far as who the hell I am I'm nobody just a guy thats done his own car his own way and seen very good results from it for next to NO money Ive got a question for you who the **** are you wait I know just another average guy that likes working on his car and put an LS1 in it because thats what he wanted to do (hey we really dont seem that different afterall) sounds like different means to the same end to me

So you can continue on being a jag or you could take your pills and we can get back to civilized conversation about the real pors and cons for swapping to ls1 or keeping standard SBC


(waiting for snappy retort about how my car is hillbilly built junk thats no good for anything)

 

Again, LS1 car with LS6 cam and yes, a D1SC running 1.5 60' times all day long, 9.30's in the 1/4 and still a streetable car, doesn't hit a massive lick at all and full power windows, locks, a/c 10 speaker Monsoon system.....with stock rear suspension, with the exception of the 12 bolt.


I can get LS6 intakes for about half the cost of an HSR....around 200-300 bucks, last time I looked, the HSR was around 600.

Pro's for swapping an LS1 vs standard SBC....

SBC = old technology, takes lots of money to make decent HP
LS1 = new technology, makes good power for less money, very good fuel economy no matter what you do with it.

Con's for swapping LS1 vs standard SBC

hmm....none that I can think of.

 

how hard would you say the swap is, from 1 to 10? ive replace a engine once or twich but never swap it 4 a different engine. its a newer engine, i wonder if it would pass emission?

 

It would pass unless you have some specific type of law regarding engine swaps of what not. Here in NC, as long as the motor you have passes for the year of car it's in, it doesn't matter. That and you have to have all the proper smog equipment for that year too.

On the scale of 1 to 10 I think it's like 8.566 Unless of course you have rubber bands and tooth picks. Then it's a 7.994 . Seriously, it all depends on what you know how to do. The best thing you can do is to read what's involved and see what you can and can't do.

 

Well, I havent read through the entire post. Its hard to get past the bickering but heres my reasons for going LS1......

1. Cam Only with Supporting Mods 11.86 on stock Heads(About $5500 in Engine and Trans with 19k Miles on it)I had an easy $3k in just the 383 short block and miniram intake set up I was building for it a few years ago and still had to worry about buying heads, trans etc.
2. If you have ever worked on an LS1 engine you will never touch a traditional SBC again. GM built the engine right, easy cam swap, awesome gasket designs etc. Everything goes together with ease.

 

330 not 345. but yea, i love the l92 heads so far, i cant wait to see what they put down.