you guys converted me. since i last posted on this sight i sold my iroc and bought a 2000 ss. love the ls1 6 speed. don't get me wrong i loved my iroc's but after 22 years of iroc's it was time for a change.

 

Yea, well, you're a loser. LMAO, J/k
Looks good. I want a LS1 car, bad. I've recently almost bought one. But, I decided just to swap one into my car.
What are your plans for the car?

 

right now suspension, just bought some new eibach prokits and bilstiens. i won't go crazy on engine maybe ls6 upgrade.

 

i spent a shi*load of money modifying my l98, trust us LSx owners when we say, spend it now, and do the swap. we r trying to save you time and money. i spent soooooooooooooo much on my l98, intakes, plenum, runners, computer programming...and in the end....it was not worth my time. spend the money now, do the lsx swap, and you'll be happier for longer. if not you'll waste your money on the l98, and then realize too late that you wasted all that money for something you'll eventually realize was not worth your time.... your choice.

 

Don't waste your money, or your time.

 

I think he mean an LS6 intake upgrade. Unless you are going to go crazy whith the heads or cam (such as AFR and a TR 223/227 .637/.639 110-LSA cam, lol) LS6s are fine. (at least this is what I have encountered).

 

If he meant the LS6 intake alone, by all means then, he should. However, I thought he was implying the heads and camshaft along with it, which is the very waste of time and money that I was referring to...

 

Werd. That would be wastefull. But not if they were CNC'd 6.0 heads and the newer LS6 (Z06) cam, and a charger of some sort.

 

True benefits...
1. LS1 will drop alot of weight off the car especially when combined with a tubular K-member.

2. LS1 will make power more efficiently. They are rated with almost the same MPG as a TPI car but more HP.

3. The LS parts are getting cheaper and cheaper as newer LS designs come out, and everyone upgrades to those

4. Easier to tune, because you dont have to get a new chip every time.

 

So, lets say youre in the same place as me and alot of others, and you have an auto 305. And youre going to swap engines anyway. Then is it just as cost effective to swap an LS1?

I just browsed ebay (I know, wrong place), and saw several LS1/t56 drop outs for about $2000-2500. I was planning a swap anyway in a couple months, if all goes well, but was considering an L98. But most of those used are around $1500 with everything. And add another what, $1500 for a t56 swap?

Now I know the L98 drops in, literally. Swap the harness, change the fuel pump, and poof. But the LS1/t56 swap is looking good. Especially if I can buy everything for less than $4k. I would probably get a tubular k-member for an easier install, and a bigger weight savings. And Im capable of doing the wiring, as long as there is a schematic available. Still have to swap a fuel pump but Id have to either way. And I have access to a nice welder, and can do a little. Plus I have a couple friends who can weld alot better who could help.

So as far as cost, from someone who has done the swap, would you do it again?
L98-$1000-1500 complete. With over 100k miles.
T56-complete swap, used $1000-1500

--or--
LS1/t56-with 40-50k miles. $2500-3000.
Add $180--fuel pump
$500--k-member
$1000--for miscellaneous crap I dont know about.

 

The LS1 will dominate that L98 engine hands down everytime. I ran 11.82 with just a mild 224 cam with my LS1. Engine was untouched other than the cam and springs. I am now building a 418 for it. You couldnt pay me to go back to a traditional SBC.

Thing is I was building a 383 sbs stroker for mine and scrapped it to go with the LS1 engine trans combo. I feel I came out cheaper in the long run. I would have had easily 4k in the long block not including the price of the used Miniram I bought for it. And still had to buy a trans and othe odds and ends.

You dont need the K-member, just the conversion mounts which are around $85.00 so that would save you money for now.

And a Walbro 255 pump is more than sufficient and well under $180.

 

A good friend of mine went 11.71@116.7 with a stock bottom end Lt1 with ported stock heads and a 220/226 cam in a full weight LT1 formula.

Those of you saying you can made huge numbers from ls1s are right, IF you compare internet numbers. Another friend of mine had a heads and cam 99 Z28. Difference was, his had a 6 liter truck bottom end in it with GTP ported stock heads and a 231/237 cam that put down 411whp the first time and 360 the second time. He averaged about 20mpg with his (its a 6 speed with stock 3.42 gears).

A local guy here had a heads and cam LS1 camaro, 6 speed, 4.10s, etc. Made like 430whp and couldn't break out of the low 12s. He could drive as well because his previous car was a heads and cam ls1 trans am that ran mid 11s.

Personally I weighed the options then realized a SBC could be built to net similar end results. Most people that build sbc's on this site build them for as much torque as they can make for their displacement. Thus you get cars that make horrible dyno numbers and run crap times at the track. Plus people still believe in the TPI setup for some unexplainable reason. You stick a big cam, good heads (NOT just AFR), a good intake, a GOOD ecu, and a properly built exhaust (headers to tailpipes). Too many people keep as much of the crap GM gave us and that yields crappy results.

 

Big whoopy a friend of mine went low 9's with a 6spd on a stroked LT1 on the spray whats your point? Speed is speed its possible to go as fast as you want to spend with any engine.

Theres bullshite artists running all engines LS1's, LT1's, or even the mighty *GASP* Vtec! there are are no exceptions. There are however ten thousand videos in the link below of guys running very impressive times with minimal mods using an LS1. Substantially more than any other sbc variant I have ever seen or known and yes amazingly enough these same guys post internet numbers imagine that. Not to mention if you read GMHTP which is a highly respected mag and it doenst take a rocket scientist to see that LS1's vs all other sbc engine types are easier to make go faster with less mods and no matter what level you build to the LS1 is ten times more civilized and gets better fuel mileage. At this point there is no arguing that to say anything else is just rant and not fact these engines have more hp and user friendly potential per dollar PERIOD!

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forumdispl...sprune=30&f=51




Anyways as for your choice I'm glad your happy with it. I find it incredibly odd though how after all the success stories that everyone I have seen ( including myself ) and how happy we ALL feel about using LS1's and your not going to convince ANYONE whos actually done this swap that it isnt the best thing since sliced bread. Another thing to consider here is for myself and may others this is not by faaaaaaaaaar my first build or swap. I've run tons of stuff in the years gone by, BBC's with solid cams and high compression true dual 3" etc etc. Turbo 930 porsche with mods, Mustangs, All sorts of sbc's and some of em were fast. But there has never been an engine thta I have built and run so hard so often for so long that even comes close to putting as many smiles per mile as the LS1. These things are so good I too will never build another old school sbc. I think of all the years I struggled and poured dollars into those things to go fast... ahh well. Live and learn I guess.

Main thing is whatever anyone builds is to be happy with your choices for the reasons you chose. Its your money and your entitled to spend it however you like I just feel its important to share good, solid, informed info to our fellow members so they can at least avoid the mistakes I've made.

 

I think quite a few people get the wrong idea from the LS1 advocates. I love the SBC motors. If I get around to my 1st gen project, it will most likely get an old school SBC.

However...when you compare potential, you also have to consider that most of us LS1 guys are daily driving our cars. I have all the mods to my motor AND still pull a great MPG and its completely streetable. In fact, with the cut out closed, and under moderate throttle, you can hardly tell anything is done. Building a older SBC to act the same way, if its even possible, would have most certainly cost more, and been a bit more challenging.

Its just hard to deny the characteristics of the newer motors. Just like the "older SBC" motors were an improvement over motors of the past, the LS motors are just another step forward. Or...a leap...

J.

 

Honestly the biggest reason Ive avoided even looking into an LS1 swap before, was 1) I was told it would be a $10k swap (not true anymore), and 2) the arrogant holier-than-thou attitude I usually get from about 99% of the 4th gen LS1 owners. I swear they are worse than the cobra mustang owners.

Ill never deny the potential of the LS1. It appears I was mislead by the cost. And if I can have my cake (a fast car) and eat it too( mild street manners) im down for it.

Im definatly going to look into it further. Maybe Aaron was right.

 

Theres one guy claiming he did a 5.3 swap for $300 over at Tech. The cost has dropped substantially as there are just more out there now and more variants. That said... Swap one. Then tell me what it costs. As with anything its the "might as well add a cam, intake, long tubes while I'm at it" etc etc etc. that really drive the cost up not so much a bare bones swap that could be done on the very cheap these days your spot on about that.

 

When I bought my LT1 the LS1's where still like gold (in price's) but now you can pick one for around $2000. And all I have put back is a long block way more than $2000 in it. And to tell you the truth if I had to start from scratch again it would be LS1. Dont let the price scare you because you can "have my cake (a fast car) and eat it too( mild street manners)".

 

Cost effective only with respect to power and performance upgrade potential. It will still cost you more than putting a 350 under your 305 controls system, you have to do something else about the transmission, and the LS1 work itself is certainly more extensive than just putting in a "4 inch bore kit".

I certainly seem to have a knack at making things more difficult than necessary; I've had the LS1/T56 in my garage for almost a year, and it's basically sitting in the same place as it was when I unloaded it from the back of the pickup. I have managed (with help from a TGO member) to change out the clutch and flywheel for the LS7 stuff, and removed A.I.R. and EGR, but I still need to get that broken off exhaust manifold bolt removed from the head, change out the carburetor fuel tank, change out the 10-bolt for the beefed-up 10-bolt, change out the engine mounts, start the rewiring process, yada yada yada.

I would also say that although you can get an LS1 running in a 3rd gen by connecting only 8 wires (or so they say), to get gages to work properly is a whole 'nuther proposition altogether.

Of course, the end question remains the same: "Is it worth it?" I can't say that from personal experience yet, but all the data I've been able to gather says the answer to that is, "Yes!"

One other thing about the "cost effective" thing - if you do the work yourself, maybe. If you pay to have the work done, no way.

 

try hawk performance thats were im ordering all my swap things except cage and mini tubs

 

Uhm, how do you figure? I remove old chip from ECM, erase it, pop it in the burner, put new program on it, put it back in the ECM, and I'm done.

If you're refering to the LS1 ECM being flashable, well I have an Ostrich as well, and that's flashable, too.

 

Because an LSx is superior in every way. Couple of examples I have owned the following vehicles...just going to list the GMs and not the Fords, Mopars, or Suzukis. lol.

87 IROC Camaro 5.7 TPI
91 Firebird Formula 5.7 TPI
2000 Camaro
97 C5
01 C5 Z06

My stock 97 turned 12.9 in the 1/4 on good year run flats. From what I have seen there is not that big a weight difference between the thirdgens and the C5 Coupe. Between the thirdgen and fourthgen yes...and Z06 there are clearly weight differences.

What does it take to get a 5.7 Thirdgen into the 12's? The LSx is superior in everyway to the SBC. I went back an forth and can provide a simple example from today. I had a full tank of gas and 4 passengers in my Toyoto Avalon Limited 270 hp V6. I was behind a thirdgen (GTA) today at a light...we both needed to accelerate quickly to get past a merge lane from a signal....he jumped on it and so did I....I found myself waiting on him to accelerate and I could tell he was full throttle...if that was an LS1 powered vehicle my V6 would have never caught him.

I am stuffing an LS6 H&C motor into my thirdgen...should make 380-400 rwhp through an Auto...and it is still a 346cid and will get over 20 mpg.

 

old thread back from the dead. my last post was in 2007 at the top of this page.since than i have sold my 2000 ss and i am now putting a ls6 in a 1989 iroc.

 

ever thought about how much fuel you could buy for the money you would save over the LSx by building up some SBC with the same power figure?

 

I bought a 2004 6.0l and a 4l80e, for $800.

So I got a set of 34,000 mile, high flow alum. heads
with 210cc intake ports (flow over 265cfm),
75cc exhaust ports,
80mm 5 wire MAF,
80mm TB,
for 800 bucks and it came with a lsx short block and alot better trans....lol

ls1 intake (should of went straight to ls6) $100
F-body oil pan = $170
Clam shells = ebay $56
PS pump setup = $130
alt bracket (gm) = $22
HP TUNERS = $650 (which I can use on alot more vehicles)
Jegster Torque arm = $304
spohn lsx brackets = $80

so around $2300

That is cheaper then a set of AFR's that might flow as much!

I am not saying everyone could pull it off for this cheap. Its not that hard but some area's as alot more. I included hptuners to cover all the little things I had to buy, there are cheaper ways of get it to run. I am a die hard bang for the buck guy. And a 6.0 was a wise choice for me, because I plan on having this car forever. Ls1's are nice and 65-80 pounds lighter but you can't rebuild them more then once really. Ls1 F-body guys are swap in 6.0 alot these days for high power, low buck options (boost, N2O with iron block)

 

A bunch, there are people putting out 400rwhp and getting close to 30mpg on the highway with a 6-speed.

 

Alot of people don't have the capability of burning chips though, and if you make a change....drive it to the dyno shop (or just plug up the laptop) and make the changes on the fly. Make a pull, 15 seconds to reflash it and make another pull.

You don't have to tear the dash apart to get the ECM out, just plug it into the ALDL and you're ready to tune. The programs aren't bad price either, TunerCat is 99 bucks with a 20 def file for the LT1, HPTuners is a tad more expensive, about 499 for it, but since it also has the scanning and editor both in one it eliminates having to have 2 programs for it, but the amount you can tune with it is just unbelievable.

 

Well, unless you're only planning on keeping the car for a short time, that's a pretty short-sighted argument. With all of the development that's gone into this series of engines, & features like hollow-core camshafts to reduce reciprocating mass, 15-degree stock valve angles, etc, etc, swapping one in provides benefits in efficiency every time you turn the key. The "extra fuel" that you mention is a one-time thing, & once it's gone, then you still have that relatively inefficient, heavy engine that puts you on the wrong side of the curve.

I'm not wanting to be mean or anything, but this is kind of like the situation where the original Chevy small-block displaced the flatheads. The benefits are just so obvious that they kind of force people (& other car companies) to adapt.

 

Not a bad setup I already had an ls1 with an automatic 4l60e. Rounded the harmonic off the crank so its getting forged. gona find a t56 and completely cage the car with a 4link setup 12 bolt im gona turbo the ls maybe twin not sure hoping for at least 700hp+ TO THE WHEELS.

 

I say to the OP that the LSX engines are far advance in design compared to the old technology of the sbc and should have came around a lot sooner plus there are alot more people out there to tune those systems and can squeak out a lot more power IMO with just a tune!
I my self seen that dollar for dollar that was better in the long run to upgrade the drivetrain in my GTA to a LQ9 which can be had for pretty cheap or hell there are even the 5.3's the LQ4's that can be had for pretty cheap alot of aftermarket for these engines and just makes more sense IMO.
Best complement for these cars!

 

The same people who cant or dont tune TPI engines are also the same ones who would not be able to tune the LS1 engines in their cars. However you are right in that there are a LOT more people who can tune LSx engines nowadays vs people who can still do TPI cars, such as myself.

TunerPRO RT does scanning and tuning in the same program, but I use TunerCAT RT and Datamaster because that is what I started with.

With my Ostrich, I can connect it physically in the ECM so I dont have to pull down the dash panel. I would have to make two connections though, one USB cable and one ALDL cable to my laptop to make changes.

I hate to use the 305 arguement though, but there's also a lot more satisfaction in beating those LS1's with an inferior TPI.

 

Like i was saying before hawk performance does everything for the conversion and even wiring harness plug and go if i am corect not bad on price eather

 

Depends upon your definition of "not bad on price".

I still say it's more of a do-it-yourself'er project than shop-install or buying plug & play parts.

 

hey guys will my old manual trans bolt up to a ls1, or is there any mods that can be done? im also thinking of trying a lm7 5.3 carb new cam and intake to get serious power, anything you can help with there, are there any troubles or helpful advice you might have? thanks

 

lol....I don't give a crap about fuel dude. I have a 650hp TT Z06 that I built (that it on the low boost setting...high boost it made 1K hp). But even on the 650 hp setting it is well mannered and averages 19-22 mpg...that is with me getting on it whereever I can as well.

The only point about fuel economy is with respect to the conversation about efficiency, but can appreciate you point. My point is (putting aside mod potential) is with the stock LS1 vs. stock L98. The LSx makes 100 more hp and gets better fuel economy. The best my 91 TPI 5.7 (current daily driver) does is 20 mpg. My stock LS1 in my 97 Coupe got 26mpg and I turned a 12.9 on run flats....lets see that in an L98 TPI car! The stock LS6 that was in my Z06 got around 24mpg with even more hp.

I have an LS6 waiting to go into my 91. BTW the the LSx have 6 bolt mains and not weak *** 2 bolt mains like the L98.
It's cool that you are still tuning TPI cars...better then sending a way for a chip IMO any day. However if you sig is correct....you ran 12.803 and I ran 12.901 and I ran on Goodyear GMTs in my basically stock (had catback mufflers..mainly just a sound mod) 97' C5 Coupe (first C5) if I had run the car with regular tires (18" BFG KD or Nitto DRs) I would have shaved off a few more 10ths and got lower. But as it is I had a faster mph on my 12.9 run then you did with your 12.8 run. Just cursiou what lowly LS1s are you racing? It sounds like you are racing stock Auto Fbodies...which have about 100 less rwhp and weigh a bit more then your car. If you took your same mods and put them on an LS1 you would be in the rear view mirror a lot more if racing a similar skilled driver.

 

Wow I never saw this post...Oops.

Don't think that I don't like or know a lot about the ls1. I love the engine and know full well of its potential. I have gone back and forth about wanting to swap one in my car. I am still up in the air about doing it because of the hassles involved in doing it. Stupidly expensive headers that may or may not fit right, stupidly expensive harness conversion (I refuse to do that part myself), and then I would have to sell the t56 I already have and find another one for an ls1 engine. All these things are easily overcome just not sure if I would want to deal with them.

My current long tubes will fit an lt1, my t56 will fit an lt1, I can run a megasquirt setup which I am sure will work just fine on an lt1 with a rear mount distributor, the y pipe I am having made up will work just fine, etc. At that point I have a stronger block that can be splayed to 4 bolts if I get the wild hair, don't have to worry about the Gen III oiling problems that I am told could happen, and have reverse cooling which will help with higher compression on the street.

Both have their ups and downs and just like you said, people should be happy with what they chose. If not, rebuild it like you want it to be built.

 

look at what at I just picked for 800 dollars it's an totaled 1998 trans am ls1 auto, I can not wait to do my swap. I will start thread on the whole process next week. now I know this was a steal and don't come to often, but they are out there, ok so this car had a 3.73 rear new axles and a mac diff stud girdle, 4 cross drilled slotted rotors and hawk pads, bmr control arms, leather interior, for starters as soon as I got the car I sold the rear end and some exhaust for 600 dollars so thats most of my money back excluding the tow, next is the seats and wing so if anyone wants them for cheap email me.. I can just tell this was a wise choice I've spent more on edledbrock intakes and runners, porting, throttle bodies, injectors, exhaust, easily close to 1500 in a tpi motor and wasn't even going to make the kind of power that this does stock.....

 

Nice find but.... I think you might consider changing your username now....

And good luck keeping it stock

 

Haha...You can argue that the LS1 is a form of TPI. Just refined and doesnt weeze and run out of breath at 4500 rpm

alltpi: Good luck with the donor car. That thing looks like it took a nasty wack. Also looks like that STB might have helped to keep the wheel well out of the side of the motor some. Do you know if it runs? Either way, you shoudl make your purchase and tow money back easy with that...depending what you sell/keep.

J.

 

true that i still love the tpi but this was an incredible deal

can anyone tell me where to start a new thread on my swap....

 

yeah it did someone clipped him on the expressway on the front driver, he then hit the wall on the pass side doing 65 ish then the car spun around and hit the oppostite wall, the wheel went into heater core,,,, the only thing I see is the lower control arm cracked the trans bellhousing but in a spot that doesn't matter,,, Now I already got the motor and trans out of the car and it's already at the junkyard sold a more few pieces front rotors, some pieces from the headlight harness, and bmr control arms so my money is made back, I got an ls1 for free plus I'm going to make a few hundred more dollars selling the seats, this is straight awesome. doin the harness now as we speak.....

 

Being on both sides of the fence,(Ford/Chevy) I can tell you this. LS cars make alot of Ford guys nervous. TPI cars...Not so much. BUT... Thats what I personally like about TPI 3rd gens,and why I have one. Most people dont expect them to be fast. So you get ALOT of races. Very few will race me when driving the Mustang. No matter what theyre driving.

 

Well I just read this whole thread- from a simple question of an opinion wanted to one hell of a pissin contest! both engines IMO have theyre good points the SBC started out as a wimpy 265 and started to evolve-283 327 302 350 400 from 1955 to hell I dont remember what year they stopped 2002? excuse that lack of knowlege but I feel we owe alot to the SBC the 302 that was made legal to go trans am racing to the LT1(old style) to the dismal 70's and eighties and making a comback as TPI inj -come on now in 85-90 that were great compared to years past life was good but IMO the LS engines were needed to carry the torch. GM could of helped us out some with conventional motor mounts- better oil pans to make swapping easier so we do it anyway they did use some SBC parts like lifters and rod bearings. I made the choice a couple years back deciding to look forward and update the drivetrain in my 69 Bird to a LS6 6 speed and Im looking for 400-425 to the rear wheels with good economy and power. PS I have a ZZ4 that will be TPI in my 70 chevelle wagon some day.

 

if you're gonna spend that much on an engine, I would say just buy a 4th gen. They don't have the 3rd gen looks though. But an ls1/t56 camaro would be awesome.

 

And that would be the easiest way to get an LS1. Only reason I have a 3rd gen is because it was my first car and I've had it for 20 years. It's just a personal thing that I can't let it go.

I've bought two 4th gen Camaro's while slowly converting my 3rd gen to LSx power. One stock SS and another 6.0L Z28 with H/C/I. The 6.0L car is the one that 100% convinced me to go LSx. That car was so freaking fast for the handful of simple modifications done to it.

 

Budget build it man! I put up good number on nitrous with a 5.3. And run 13.0 @ 106 in the 1/4 mile on engine no spray. Ls6 cam thats it and i may have a total of $2500-$3000. I remember most expensive think was engine/wiring harness-$289 4l60e-$400, 4th gen rear-$100, fuel pump-$100, pcm-$50 flash tune-$50. I had my fuel line made for -$130. And the only reason i swapped my tank is because the old was had to much sludge from the car sitting with half tank of gas for three years.

 

ugh back from the dead

 

Way to bump a 3yr old thread to continue a futile argument

 

I forgot motor mounts-80 and trans mount-110

 

LOL! I guess this is old.

 

Sword fighting at its best?