I don't know. I never read any of this thread. Just noticed somebody bought a 4th gen.

 

WOW...2years, 3months, 10 days, since last post, give or take a few, someone was bored on Valentines day!!

I'm with QwkTrip, I've had my car for like 16 years, and there's no way I'd get rid of it now. My LS1/T56 dropout will be here next week! I aint even playing any more boys!!

 

And wtf....I just read the first post from over 5 years ago......crazy!

 

Don't deal in absolutes. Its all about money. LS1 is one of the best engines ever designed, but if Richman Williams pours fortunes into his L98 he'll walk Toothless Joe Slim's LS1 easily. Give me 5 billion dollars, I'll put Europe into orbit with an L98.

 

with 5 billion dollars id recommend using an LSx engine and putting the whole middle east into orbit.

 

Well, I have read all through this thread and I have noticed one thing. That everyone overlooks a legend, an engine that simply ruins any LSX or L98's hopes of winning a race... The 305 cross-fire... I mean this thing puts out over 170 hp at the flywheel and gets as much as 20 miles to the gallon! Couple that with a 3 speed automatic and you have yourself a low 19 second car. Obviously I am being completely sarcastic. This is the setup I have and it MUST GO, LS1 will hopefully be yanking my axle by the end of the year. I have a friend with an L98 Camaro and yes the engine drops your jaw when you pop the hood BUT I would rather have my jaw drop while checking MPG's at the gas pump and have it continue to be dropped when I squeal away from the gas station and take off.

There is a cheap route, an ideal route and an over the top route for everything. One must look at their goals in association with their finances to find their ideal route which isn't necessarily the same as another individuals ideal route. For me, if I can afford it, I will go LS1 for the optimum drive-ability as my car is a daily driver. If my car was a slumbering beast and waited for the weekends to burn some rubber I would probably be going with a 454 and a monster carb. Because yes, it may be cheaper BUT who wants 10 miles to the gallon? And if I had a TPI I too agree, I'm not sure if I could bring myself to pulling it out of its home.

 

So I'm looking to swap an ls1 or ls6 or lsx in my 91 Camaro I have a 700 tranny with 3.42 rear end. I do drive my Camaro 65 miles a day to and from work. What setup should I run. I am looking for more gas mileage than HP ..

 

 

I would definitely keep that crossfire, lol. I've had one and you are correct, they rip

Really??? I have a TPI, and I don't have a problem yanking it out for my LS1. With that said, I guess I have a TPI for sale....lol

 

im sorry i love how everyone is setting hear talkin about hp hp hp.... torque is where its at. just cause u make more horse power dont forget its gotta handle and hook up first.

 

you do know that more efficiency generally means more power, right?

you can make a ton of power and still get ~25ish mpg

 

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<<<<<<<<<

 

Different aerodynamics, different suspension, and different weight between an F-body and a Corvette. I'm also a terrible driver. I ran that 12.80 back in 2001 and I have yet to run another 12 second time since. I'm not necessarily beating LS1's these days, but we have several other TPI cars in our SoCal club running low 12's to high 11's, and they do beat many of the racers they're lined up against at the local drag strip.

 

This is my biggest issue with the LS1 swap. The attitude of those who own LSx engines is very poor. Many of them act like their crap doesnt stink, and if you dont own an LS1 engine in your ride then you are scum beneath their feet and not worthy of being on the same race track as them. That attitude makes me want to build TPI engines even more and beat them at their own game.

I'm not denying the power and efficiency of the LS1 platform. Its friggin' awesome. However, I live in California, and to legally do the swap here basically entails unbolting a 4th gen body and bolting a thirdgen body on top. It should be that way all across the USA, but not all states enforce the federal laws. Keeping all the emissions devices intact on a LS1-to-thirdgen swap is a pain in the *** if you're doing it right. Dont forget the dash gauges are all different too and not compatible. I can make similar numbers to a mild LS1 and still pass CA's emissions testing, and thats enough for me. My car is my daily driver, and to get almost 400 RWHP, 12 second ET's, and 20+ MPG is all I need. For others, thats not enough, but I appreciate that we're still thirdgenners at heart and still want to modify the thirdgen platform. If I was to go LSx, it'd be in a 2005-2006 Pontiac GTO. But my thirdgen is staying TPI.

 

uh.. wut? the only real thing youd have to do FEDERALLY is to use the air pump and cats that the 2001+ ls motors use (with those motors of course). CA is basically a communist state that will crush your car if they catch you modifying it. it SHOULD be that if ur car sniffs clean, what it has shouldnt matter, period, end of story.

anyways, the SBC is not a bad motor in the least. the best mix is actually worlds SBC/LSx crossover. LS heads with the gen SBC's awesome oiling system? yes please! it really comes down to, what power do you want to make with what method. i would love to build a flathead v8 hot rod one of these days or even :gasp: mod motor foxbody of some sort.

 

:facepalm: what a randomly meaningless comment....

 

I thought that was what the Erod motor was supposed to correct.
Or is it just for older vehicles?

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/erod/

 

I agree with you in that it shouldnt matter whats under the hood, only what comes out the tailpipe. But thats not the way the law is written. Eventually, all states are going to use the CA emissions test, or the federal gov't will withhold funding. Its already happened in some states.

 

What comes out of the tailpipe is only part of the story. Evap systems also play a part.

But, the big thing is that the tailpipe sniffer is just an indicator of what the certified system did during the certification test. The certification test for the system is much, much more extensive than what you get with the sniffer, even on a dyno. If you want to go through a 50k mile test and whole-car vapor test to certify what you changed under the hood, be my guest.

Now, about attitudes: They don't make a lick of difference on the track. I get outrun by SBC's at the track all the time, but outrun my fair share of them as well. Doesn't much matter either way. I'm pleased with my choice (took a second off of the ETs the SBC ran, without a MPG penalty). Of course, my SBC wasn't TPI, per the thread topic. But, I don't think I've been outrun at the track to date by a TPI car (NA, anyway). Does that make me an "LS Snob"?

Regardless of all that, I'd say run/improve what you've got, unless you've got a compelling reason to change it to a different system. Have TPI? Fix it up to your liking. Have carb? Ditto. Have a blown TPI engine, feel like an updated system, and the budget to do it properly? I say, go for it - just understand what you're in for.

 

It's one thing to live in California and whine about the nonsense laws and power-hungry state & local government. If you don't like it, join the mass exodus in progress. Otherwise STFU and enjoy the nanny state.

It's another matter entirely to wish that crap on the rest of us.

I will never understand the mindset of some Californians...flee the mess they made of their state, set up in a new state, and then proceed to demand for (and vote for) the same politics they fled.

 

I don't wish California laws on anyone. I'm simply warning people that based on whats happened across the country the last 10-15 years, California-style emissions laws are making their way to the rest of the states. Be prepared.

 

Really the LSx swap guys have a poor attitude or is it just that they got tired of the TPI guys coming in here with their BS?

Dyno Don, doesn't seem to have anything better to do than to come onto the LSx section and criticize our builds?

(DynoDon referring to TPI TERR’s LSX dyno numbers 342rwhp bolt-ons only) and

(DynDon referring to BlueZee’s build thread).



Then we got the rest of the SoCal TPI groupies trying to talk down on LSx builds:



Made this guy eat his own words when I ran 1 second faster and trapped 10+ more mph than his fully built TPI



Here's the original thread:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...mber-gets.html

The only reason to keep a TPI is for nostalgic purposes and if you are happy being limited to 12 second 1/4 mile times.

 

Well since you have to drag up old garbage....

I have to remind you Vincent did "beat" you on that same day with his TPI.

 

Just because you don't have the "attitude" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I used to own a LS1 formula, and yes.. it really is THAT BAD depending on where you go and who you talk to. The LSx crowd is about as bad as the modular Ford crowd.. typical nutswingers with a holier-than-thou complex. Whether that applies to you is a completely different matter. It doesn't apply to everyone, but that attitude is very accurate to say the least. It's exactly why I don't typically mingle with that crowd; on or off the strip...regardless of what car I'm driving.


I've had them both, and my preference is the SBC still. Everyone has different opinions, though.. and should be taken as such.

 

I've been dealing with the "LS1 attitude" since 1999 when I joined the SoCal F-Bodies. That attitude is part of the reason why Tom Keliher formed the SoCal Thirdgen F-bodies later in 1999. It was there way before you and your brother came along. But if the shoe fits....

Dyno Don and I express our opinions, saying we dont want LS1 engines in our cars. We're impressed with the power output, but we're happy to stick with our TPI engines and continue making them work better. I've never said that LS1's suck or that LS1's are terrible or any other such negative attitude towards LS1's like I've seen from the LS1 owners towards TPI guys and other engines. Thats where I have a problem. And your last comment is showing that attitude exactly. There are many 11 second and faster TPI cars around the country. Just because you chose to ignore them doesnt mean they dont exist. As I said above, some of us are perfectly happy having a 12 second daily driver TPI engine. I dont need an LS1 engine to accomplish that goal, and I shouldnt be looked down upon or called names for my choice.

 

CA emission enforcement has proven too expensive to maintain here in NJ. Tailpipe sniffers and anything more than a mirror-on-a-stick to see cat converter(s) went away two years ago.

All that roadside smog sniffing, referee processes, etc. costs $$ that California simply doesn't have. Only a matter of time before the finances bottom out and Sacramento has to give the state's budget a haircut.

 

Wait what did YOUR car run and trap at the same track where my "bastardized" LS1 trapped a lowly 115 mph?

I'm guessing 105-106mph

So you own your own shop and make a living building TPI's but yet your car got left in the dust by my driveway build w/off-the-shelf parts?

Fact: SoCal is known for the fastest TPI in the nation yet there is only one 11 sec N/A TPI w/ a $$$$$ build. The rest run mid 12's and slower. Just as you are happy running 12 sec's in a TPI others don't want to be limited and are happy running 11 and 10's with non-TPI whether it be carb'd or LSx.

Don't understand why you guys come in to the LSx section when there really is no argument

 

So there's only one known TPI here that's into the 11's? Does that include the FIRST TPI system? I agree the platform is severely hindered by it's emphasis on tractor power curves, but I still find it somewhat surprising that it really has a hard time doing better than 12's. Most I see arent even that fast, so I guess I shouldn't be that surprised.

Do you know what horsepower is? It's a quantity of torque applied over a given time interval. The more torque, the more hp.

 

Yes, one 11 second extensively modified TPI . in their defense our local track is very slow with bad weather and horrible + DA

 

Well lets see, by your logic, since that same day I ran 12.45/ 111.
and had a bad launch, that means I would have beat you too with a better launch.

For your information I am retired and have a hobby shop and enjoy working on cars.

You guys always go around fabricating things you want to believe, never bother to get things straight.

And yes, I am happy running low 12's on my daily driver.
If I wanted to spend more money and go faster I would, not into that, like I used to be.

Have a nice Day!

 

correct me if im wrong but z28fast1 had no choice but to granny shift that day with a bad clutch mc. lol still trapping 115mph. same track, same weather conditions.

so if each issues were resolved on both ends, he would STILL have left your car in the dust..

don. but isnt that your goal. enhancing the tpi, improving the design, experimenting, and not being limited to a 12 sec slip.?

IIRC the 2011 l.a. invasion was the first year that i saw a tpi thirdgen in the 11s here in so cal.

fully built, everything you name it, extensively modified tpi.
can someone duplicate that set up? and i always wanted to know the answer to this--->how much would it cost?


btw , let us know when you make some "carb eo" headers for ls1 swap third gens .

 

Well crap....

Allen has 420/417
I have 400/430
I guess I should quit granny shifting then.

 

This thread is about "why swap in a ls1 instead of modifying a tpi."
So inform us with some figures $$ on those two builds.

 

What Allen spent on his build is his business and he'll tell us if he wants. Buts its our entertainment, what we do for fun, and there is no price on fun. He did most of the work himself, just like you do, so I'm sure its not as much money as you think it is.

The original post asked why swap in an LS1 instead of modifying the existing L98. That makes this thread relevant to me, no matter what board its posted in, because I have knowledge of what it takes to modify an L98 engine. I'm not arguing TPI vs LS1. Everyone knows the LS1 engine has 18* heads, 300+ cfm head flow, a faster and more powerful ECM, sequential multi-port injection, etc. I'm arguing the cost, time, hassle, and convenience of modifying the existing L98 engine vs swapping in an entire LS1 drivetrain, gauges, transmission, etc, into a thirdgen. What you and your brother have done is awesome and congrats to you both. But not everyone has the time nor ability to swap an engine (of any kind) in their driveway. Modifying the thirdgen platform to accept an LS1 swap is, IN MY OPINION, way more hassle, compromises, and time than its worth if you're starting with a TPI engine already there. We've proven, with many thanks to Jerrywho, that the TPI setup is still worth being modified and can make similar power numbers to the current engines. For other people, yourselves included, the LS1 swap is worth it.


We've only been doing this for a few years, and we're not limited to 12 second ET's. That's the current standard, but who says we're done there? Allen has proven that a TPI setup can run in the 11's, and Vincent is aiming to join him there. Don is happy where he's at, and so am I. As I said, my car is my daily driver and I am a terrible driver at the track. Allen is not the first to run 11's with a TPI, there were many before you came along.
We're not going to make any headers or tuning for LS1 engines. We have our niche with TPI and we're going to continue with it. There are many many other LS1 mechanics out there and we dont need to be one of those "me too" people.

 

Makes sense, TPI= perfect engine to keep it safe in the 12's once you're retired

Depends on the person's budget and goals:

TPI w/ (H/C, bolt-ons) 320-360 rwhp vs.
LS1 w/ bolt-ons 320-360rwhp


TPI w/(better H/C, aftermarket intake manifolds w/porting etc.) 360-400 rwhp vs.

LS1 w/ bolt-ons + cam 380rwhp-420rwhp


If you want more than 400 but 420 MAX rwhp it's going to take $8-10K + *** (One-of-one type of engines, aftermarket: block, internals, heads, intake, every bolt-on imaginable , electric water pump, specialized porting everywhere, etc.)

vs. LS1 w/off the shelf bolt-ons + cam + heads 420rwhp-500rwhp ($4-5K)


Facts, not opinions.


Just saying, you don't see LSx guys going in to the TPI section asking why they are wasting their time w/boat anchors.

 

Well, both engines both make good torque, with the LS1 having the upper hand.... So what was your point? (sorry if I keep the momentum going in an otherwise useless comment).

 

You've missed my point again. And you even highlighted my point. I'm not arguing engine vs engine, because I'm not that stupid. I know you can build an LS1 engine with heads and cam that will make more power than a TPI engine with heads, cam, and intake, on the engine dyno. I'm talking about putting an LS1 engine into a thirdgen being a lot more hassle than building the existing TPI engine.

And yes, there are several threads in the TPI section, the Engine Swap section, and over on LS1tech.com (yes I know that board doesnt count here) that make fun of anyone who asks how to build up their TPI engine, and tell them to just swap an LS1 into it.

Lastly, where do you get 420 maximum RWHP from a TPI from? Just because thats what Allen is currently at? I really doubt we've hit the maximum power, as Allen isnt done and neither is Vincent. The only thing special on Allen's engine is the mini-stroke crankshaft, and a custom grind camshaft. Everything else is off the shelf aftermarket with special porting, balancing, and blueprinting.

If you want to talk non-special, Vincent's engine, my engine, and Don's engine are all using standard off-the-shelf aftermarket parts with ported heads, stock crankshafts, powdered metal rods, forged pistons, etc. We've posted many pictures on how to duplicate our TPI intakes. There's nothing one-off or special about our engines, and they dont cost $10k to build.

 

This thread was started over 5 years ago. It's been brought back from the dead a couple of times, the latest after being stagnant for over 2 years. The OP hasn't posted on the board for almost 5 years, let alone on this thread.

And the same ground is being covered that was gone over 5 years ago...

Tell ya what - rather than quibble back & forth here, wasting everyone's valuable time (I should be out in the garage finishing up the install of the S&W Racecar 9" torque arm assembly in the LS1/T56 car instead of reading through this making sure everyone is behaving), why don't you just do your own research and make up your own mind? There's plenty of information available on TGO and on that site we don't mention (jk, folks - where's your sense of humor?). If you like TPI, go on that forum and research that system there. If you're considering LT1 or LS1, do your research here. If you are trying to decide between them all, there's plenty of information discussing the pros and cons of each.

If you really, really don't like one of these systems, then stay off the forum for that system and frequent the forum of the one you do like. Don't go over to the other forum to stir up trouble (heaven forbid you actually learn something that may change your mind). If you see someone doing that, report it, don't respond in kind to it.

Deal?

 

Well, my two cents:

SBC engines are a dying breed, for hotrodders. Cam, springs and pushrods and you have a LS motor spinning 7000 rpm, making gobs of power. Cheap as hell, for me anyway. Been there and built the old 350s this way and that, and I am done. Wish I went LS sooner.

Anyone care to show me a 87 octane l98 running low elevens with cam, intake, and headers? You won't.

For stock, original ect, SBC is fine, but I have less headaches and not had a SBC with a cam last as long as my Ls swaps.

You can make anything run with enough cash, for me I don't have allot of money, so I am rewarded with cars that run better than any other budget SBC could ever do trying to spin 7000 rpm.

 

Have you been to your local NHRA drag strip and watched the stock and super stock classes lately? I dont know what octane they're using, but they're running 11's and faster with SBC's.

 

Vincent has made some improvements in key areas. I am impressed with his "new" heads. They do flow some air. It will be interesting to see what his car does.

I have an intake ready to go on and hopefully it better matches my combination and adds some more ponies. In the wings the cross ram is under construction and that has a lot of potential. We will see what this year brings.

From what I have seen we are right there with the LSX crowd but we have to make our own induction parts as the aftermarket support is not there. Its been what, 15-20 years since anything new has come out for the L-98 induction wise? Ken at First is making small changes to his system but that is about it. The BBK Turtle Ram never got past the prototype stage.

 

By all means, a 350 is no slouch when done properly, just like anything else, but when you battle run of the mill 4 inch bore Ls truck motor against 4 inch bore run of the mill SBC, even with the limited years of the vortec heads, there is just no competing. The ability of the gen iii and IV platform is technologically advanced so for beyond the old gen I, there is just nothing to offer a hotrodder these days as far as budget.

A 5.3 from 99 Trucks had 300 hp, when did the last 5.7 make that much in anything? Long ago and was not a truck motor.

BUT a run of the mill 5.7, 5.0, ect, will hold allot more boost, so like anything it has advantages, the 5 bolt per cylinder sbc has always been superior for high boost.

I can go on and on, the sbc will live forever, but the LS is replacing it. 350 blocks are starting to become paper weights in junk yards, while the Ls is bought for replacement and hotrodding, simply taking over the street, budget and otherwise.

Compare the subbiest of both, a common small engine, the 305 vs a 4.8, man, the 4.8 is nearly given away, I have a 2008 with 32k miles for sale at 200$ short block, no one has bought it, but if you want, you get 300 hp all day with the 07 up 4.8, and the shorter stroke will allow the stock short block to spin 7800, that is amazing. Someone just going full budget with a meager 4.8 will pounce out over 400 fwhp with a used valve train, and a carb setup, I can compile a list that would be out of reach for a SBC to make such power for that price.

I hate saying I abandon the sbc, but I did. Too many reasons not to. More and more are every day, but when the day comes and my last child graduates high school, the SBC will be the way of the flathead ford,(not exactly), a remnant.

The Ls platform has been here for 16 years setting records for production parts, it is what it is. 9 second all motor pump gas cars out there with stock 6.0 engines with cam only. They are weight reduced but mind blowing, how much to turn 9s all motor in a 2400 pound car with a common 350? Too much for me. An most.

 

This is the false propaganda that you guys spread. How are your TPI's running right there with the LSx crowd?

Show me a TPI that puts down 360 rwhp with just bolt-ons(no heads or cams)

Show me a cam-only TPI that put down over 400rwhp.

Show me any max effort n/a TPI that puts down over 450rwhp. Not happening and not hanging with LSx builds that are pushing 500+rwhp n/a out of the LS1.

What I've seen out of the TPI builds is lots of time, effort and $$$ for less than stellar results.

Your max effort build($8-10k motor alone) is impressive running 11's and trapping 115 but this is not the norm for TPI's. The rest of the high HP TPI's are running 12.5 to 13.5's and trapping between 104-110 mph despite making 360-400rwhp

 

Show me why this thread should stay open...