As you may know, I've got an LS1/T56 swap in progress for Berlinetta #2. Getting close, but still needs some time/effort/money to get it finished.

Then, the bug really bit me. I picked up an LQ4/4L80E for the '57. That turned out to be a wet engine, so the seller sent me another LQ4 longblock. I planned on stroking the LQ4 anyway (L92 heads, custom cam, etc.), so it wasn't a big deal to me to tear down the original engine; but, I paid for a running engine, not a waterlogged engine.

I got the idea to put the "extra" LQ4 into Berlinetta #1, started making plans for that, but got bogged down in accessories/pan/transmission/harness/PCM needs, and ended up trading the 2nd LQ4 away. Vortec heads, Hooker 2210 headers, higher stall, taller gears were the new plan for Berlinetta #1.

I just couldn't get LSx out of my head, though. I made the mistake of looking around for LS1/4L60E combos, and ended up buying one tonight (for less than it would have cost me to get the LQ4 outfitted) - 2000 Camaro, 87k miles, even includes the K-member/brakes/wheels/etc. I have an extra LS6 intake now, so it will go on this new LS1. Need swap mounts, I'll probably put the AC relocation system on this one instead of notching the K-member. Doesn't have exhaust manifolds so I'm going to do stock-type shorties and have a "Y" fabricated into my current system. Think I should put the 317 heads on it? I'll have to decide on fuel pump (original carb car), tach, speedo, etc.

Gotta start selling off old stuff I won't be needing now. Vortec heads/intake, new 2210 headers, used/coated 2055 headers, 3 TH700's, Holley carb, dual snorkel air cleaner, ZZ4 clone 350 w/ported World heads. . .

But, I've GOT to get the LS1/T56 finished first. I'll start on Berlinetta #1 after that. Which means I'll probably race the '57 one more season with the 396/TH400.

I think I need professional help. . .

 

THERE IS NO HOPE!!!

Once the bug bites you.......

Winter will surely pass you by without notice!! I can see it now--
locked up in a hidden palace working away until the first day of spring-then-you will unleash the untamed animal...HAHA
Have fun & good luck.You got your hands full!!

 

The LS1/T56 needs some wiring in the engine bay finished up, PCM mounted under dash, AC put back in, radiator mounted & routed, air inlet set up. I have an aftermarket instrument cluster to mount & get hooked up. Need to bleed the clutch & brakes, reinstall the console. Mount tires, get an exhaust fab'd up. So, it's "almost" done.

This 2nd project shouldn't be as involved. No clutch stuff to fab up. I'll use "regular" swap stuff. No LT headers since it doesn't sound like fun getting the Hawks in with an auto tranny (plus they're 4x as expensive as shorties).

 

I'm always too far from the best learning experiences! I'd volenteer to help just to learn what's involved in that kind of swap//wiring.
For a second I thot I over-looked the "car" in the list! LOL
My wife & I are talking about a motor swap {IE-I talk,she gives me "the look"} but nothing as involved as most of what I see here at TGO.

 

I KNEW you were going to have 2nd thoughts about that...!!

 

This is the better deal for both of us. Even before selling off the now-to-be-unused Gen I stuff, it's still less than the LQ4 was going to cost me to get running.

 

Hahaha purge man... NOW before its too late!!! My dad belongs on that show "Horders" that comes on A&E Mondays at 10. He never throws out anything although he is successful enough to have a shop on a separate property so my Mom keeps their house tip top they dont have to live in swallor. However just to giver you an idea.... there are literally I mean literally over 200 hacksaws for instance at his shop. Drill bits? Enough to supply Harbor Freight for a few years its INSANE to comprehend the stuff he has.

Now hes getting on and really cant possibly come close to using 1/1000 of this stuff and of course he wont part with it so it sits... for now... but its a major PITA for him and I see him struggle with it in his mind so...

I cleared out.


I mean CLEARED out. I had BBC's, TH400's, TH350's SBC's all in plenty at my shop. Tons of stuff I liquidated all of it. I do not want to end up like that so I have one 400sbc left and two 350sbc's left all of which are <50K mile originals. I only have the Players Challenge Camaro and one truck now I unloaded everything else.

Needless to say I am very proud of this fact but I have to admit... My gosh there are deals aplenty popping up for LS1's and the like locally that i want to buy but I so far have resisted. Until I have another "must do" project I will not randomly gather parts no matter how good the deal is. Space is what i want and what my business needds not more toys.

There whew I feel better now stop tempting me five7 LOL

 

I bartered a bare 454 block and a 350 shortblock for head work earlier this year. I hauled off 1500 lbs of scrap iron back in January (Olds 350, a couple of 10 bolts, swirl port heads, LG4 exhaust manifolds, etc.).

I've had 2 TH700's sitting around for more than a year, planning on rebuilding at least one for Berlinetta #1 - won't need them now. The TH200C from Berlinetta #2, 40k on a rebuild, I'd be willing to give to someone who wanted it. Pristine gas tank from Berlinetta #2, you'd think someone could use it, but it's big and carb pick-up, expensive to ship, but I can't bring myself to haul it away. Etc., etc., etc.

I told my son about this latest development, he wants to put the ZZ4 shortblock with the Vortec heads in his '96 S10 (would have to be an emissions-legal install).

Assuming I do put the 317 heads on this engine, what cam should I use? Should I mill the 317's first, do a little porting? I have a set of L92 valve springs, are they worth using? Don't want anything real wild, it will remain my daily driver.

 

Has anyone actually tried LQ4 exhaust manifolds on a 3rd gen swap? Without having the 4th gen manifolds to compare them to, I'd guess they kick out too much at the flange, but I don't know that for a fact. Other than being factory cast iron exhaust manifolds, they don't look any worse than what I remember the "good" SS exhaust manifolds being.

 

truck manifolds won't fit at all.

mill the 317s about .030 and get a nice cam for them, depends on gearing and converter honestly. The F13 futral cam is nice with moderate gearing and a 3000/3500 stall, then you get into big cams/ stalls ie 4500+ which most ls based motors absolutely love at the track.

 

I suspected as much.

Do they need to be angle milled? Do they benefit from different valves? I was thinking I'd at least do a port clean up and "D" the exhaust ports.

That looks like an aggressive cam for a stock bottom end. I don't really want a rough idle, as this car is driven year round.

I just ordered and received a 3000 stall converter for the TH700. Hopefully they'll exchange it for an LS1/4L60E unit. I think they will.

How about the L92 springs? Any good? I've heard they are the same as LS6 springs, but I'm not sure what they can handle.

I currently have 3.23 gears, was thinking 3.73's, but might do 3.42's. I'm looking for mid-13's at altitude (for reference, mid-12's at sea level, 3500 pounds, maybe less with the LS1, currently 3550 going down the track with me in it).

 

I have the F13 cam in my ls1 in the car right now and to be honest with you, I was really shocked on how tame it is, a 2000rpm cruise has no bucking/surging or anything and with more cubes it'll be even milder. Most guys who put in a 224 duration cam end up pulling it out and going bigger, these aren't like gen1 motors who get finicky. I know on the website it shows rough idle but I've been in several EFI cars with this cam and can't tell in stoplight driving that a cam is even present. Don't bother with valves, just do a patriot gold dual spring with titanium retainer kit. You can clean up the ports a little but it's easy for guys to mess up flow on these heads, most kill the velocity, the 317 head is essentially the LS6 243 head with bigger comb. chambers.

For reference this cam with a 3500 stall and 3.73 is usually good for high 11s in a 3350 pound ls1 car, so it should easily be mid-13s I'd hope. Especially since this motor will be lighter due to plastic intake and aluminum heads, so that will shave some weight off the nose as well. LS6 springs are great for a stock LS6 cam but beyond that for a gen3 motor they're pretty useless when how cheap the patriot dual gold setup is.

 

Well, this won't be "more cubes", it's a stock LS1.

I knew the 317's were 243's with bigger chambers. But, I've heard a lot about doing some port clean-up, and the squished down exhaust ports seem a little silly. If I'm doing more cam and have exhaust that breathes a little better, a little work seems reasonable. I would surely avoid excessive grinding.

As to weight reduction, aluminum block & heads vs. cast iron block & heads, plastic intake vs. aluminum intake, 4L60E w/9.5" converter vs. TH700 with 12" converter. 100 pounds lighter is likely, maybe a little more. I will have AC, PS, PW, PL, steel hood, SFC's, but no GFX, no subwoofers.

Of course, this could quickly turn into a, "While I'm at it..." money pit. . .


(Now I need to get back out to the garage and finish the oil change on the poor neglected ZZ4.)

 

well while i'm at project has added up quite a bit to my car over the past few years as well. Looking to sell off this proven ls1 setup I have and step up to the next motor sitting in the garage, although it seems like the economy has taken its toll on that progress for me. Good luck on your swaps, they're rather fun, I'm doing a 5.3L swap into my 88 suburban as soon as the snow melts sometime around beginning of april, it'll be my first EFI ls based setup.

 

I talked to the outfit that sold me the TH700 converter. They'll exchange it for a slight "restocking" fee (uncommon configuration, will probably have to cut it open to resell it). That's cool by me.

Should I ask for 3000 or 3500 stall with the 4L60E converter?

 

I'd go 3500, plus it'll retain lockup so you won't even know it's there. Personally I'd shoot for 36-3800 but I don't mind any stall under 4400, it just takes about 2200 rpm to go stoplight to stoplight and sits there, can't even feel the gear shifts since the stall absorbs them.

 

I wouldn't put the 317 heads on even another LQ9. You're at such high elevation there in Colorado, you should be thinking about 5.3 heads, whether stock or ported. I think you'd do best with #862 heads. LSxs do fine with around 11:1 static at sea level with "baby" cams such as the TR220. At 5000' elev, that's 12:1. Is this really a driver with a 3500 stall? Only if you're thinking of a 4.30:1+ rear gear. Then you'll be adding ARP rod bolts, better pushrods, and reaching for 6800+ rpm. This is fine, but trying to do it with 317 heads, you'd better plan on boost. To do it n/a, call TEA for a set of ported 5.3 heads.

 

If I don't do the 317's, I'll keep the 241's. If I do go with the 317's, I'll have them milled to keep CR up.

I'm not as averse to high stall for the street as you seem to be. A well designed converter will handle both low and high load without acting like you're asking it to push a chain uphill when driving around town. As to gears, a TH400 with its 2.48 1st gear and 4.3 rear gears has an equivalent launch with the 3.06 1st gear of the 4L60E with only 3.48 rear gears. 3.73's should be fine.

I may take it down for rod bolts. We'll see. Most people spin too high at the track - it's the next gear that should determine your shift point, not peak power.

 

I love my TR224 cam. Very civilized but lots of pull although its on a 112 and through the six gear. If it were an auto I'd go with a 114. For a DD I wouldnt go higher than 228. Decent heads and a 224ish cam should net you mid-high 11's with a good tune and the 317's milled or even better welded then CNC'd

 

As in http://www.thunderracing.com/dynogra...n=read&pgid=62 ?

Hmmm, not bad. That's the 112 version. Although they say "1700-6600", peak HP is just over 6000 RPMs, max torque at 5000-5100-ish. They didn't post a graph of the 114 version, though. And, that was with long tubes and a few other tweaks (how much difference does a ported throttle body really make?).

 

.1 and 1 mph typically at the dragstrip, my buddy locally is a sponsor from ls1tech and has done around 300 throttle bodies for that website, if you'd like to ship it to him let me know. You can tell him you know me, i'm sure you'll get a price drop.

futral F13 over that 224 cam as well IMO. It's a much better performer and you won't notice the extra 6 degrees of duration.

 

Seriously??

That's gotta be just on the "more serious" engines, I can't imagine it making that big of a difference on a regular bolt-on type engine. Although if it did, it might even be worth doing even on my 100mm TB, I guess..

 

But, would the extra 6 degree make much difference? Would heads/exhaust be needed to take advantage of it? A flat torque curve is pretty important.

Anyone run BBK shorties? I've been watching the eBay $100 wonders, can't get an answer back from them about tube size. Coated steel BBK shorties, 1-3/4" primaries, 3" collectors, about half the price of the Hawks LT's (with no fitment problems with a 4L60E).

 

I have absolutely no experience with TH400s, and no good experiences with TH350s, and I've never tried more than a 3.42:1 gear with a TH350, and that was with 28" tires. But with the 700R-4, I've gone off the deep end, both short and tall.
To me your combo sounds extreme, and I might just make a trip to Bandimere come summer, so maybe we can arrange a ride.
As to rpm, It seems too many people like the 500 rpm rule, but don't understand it. For trap speed, you should gear the car to cross the final stripe right at the lowest rpm at which you have peak HP. For upshifts, you should shift at whatever rpm will give you the same driveshaft torque after the upshift as you had before the upshift. With a 700R-4, this usually isn't possible on the 1-2 upshift, unless you can turn 7500+ rpm. Most of us can't.

 

I've done a lot of looking around at F13, TR224, MS4, etc. A surprising number of people run T56's, so it's a little more difficult finding 4L60E combos.

Unless a majority of 4th gen owners are pathological liars, a lot of cam, compared to what we're used to with Gen I's and Mark IV's, just seems to work very well with these engines. Perhaps some of that is the ability to tune over hardware choice "mistakes".

For that matter, these engines seem to put out a lot of power for what we would call a "little cam" in Gen I's and Mark IV's.

There is an outfit in town that specializes in Vettes, but I've talked to the owner several times about LS1's (he sponsors a race series at the track). Their cars are getting very impressive at the track - NA, nitrous, boost, they've done them all. Since they know altitude, I'd probably be best served spending some time at their shop before I start spending money.

 

One thing is they don't correct for their rocker ratio. What they call a 220-at-50 cam, is really a 224 at 50 cam, at the valve. Yes, they have 220-at-50 at the pushrod. Lobes that are IR for SBC are not IR on the much larger dia. core used for their cams. That's why they can rev so high with so much rocker ratio. SBC guys have to go solid roller.

 

I was shocked by this fact at first as well but I think it comes down to a few things. Mainy its the heads... Even stock LS series heads flow as good as a very nice set of aftermarket sbc heads do. Plus being all aluminum they take more compression which helps a bigger cam out as well. Also they are at a much more favorable angle of 15 degrees iirc ( might be 18 stock I cant recall and Im too lazy to look it up right now ) but regardless this is the major gain the LS engines have and why they perform so well. The tuning is merely icing on the cake on top of it all because there is absolutely no comparison to TPI tuning vs LS1 tuning. TPI computers are dummmmmm and do not compensate for anything.

All said and done back on the cam topic there are many newer grinds that will likely outperform the TR224 but I would stay in that range. If you look at the fast N/A guys who DD their cars over at tech a LOT of them are in this area. Some guys go crazy and get into 24x cams but the bottom end suffers horribly and they do put down a lot of power on the dyno but seem to gain marginally at the track. Its really hard to beat a 224-228 or so cam on an LS engine under the curve.

BTW I thought you already had a set of LT's? I'd be looking at those for certain

 

Stock Gen III heads are 15 degree. Stock SBC heads are 23 degree, with some aftermarket 18 degree SBC heads available.

Yes, Hawks/SSW long tubes for the LS1/T56 Berlinetta #2. I picked up a very slightly used set of the 1-3/4" primary/2.5" collector version and had them Jet Hot coated. They are installed in the car, but I haven't gotten to the point of getting the rest of the exhaust finished yet.

This thread is about Berlinetta #1, currently LG4/ZZ4/TH700. I'm picking up a 2000 LS1/4L60E drop-out for it this weekend. I keep hearing the Hawks/SSW 3rd gen LS1 long tubes don't play well with 4L60E.

I know, I know, I should finish one project before starting another. I have a problem with that.

 

Picked up the engine/trans/etc. today. Seems to be in decent shape (just turned it over by hand, didn't try a compression check). ATF wasn't burnt.

Got more "stuff" than you normally get - front cradle (complete including wheels/tires), brakes, fuse/relay box. Even the brake booster. No exhaust manifolds, though, supposedly had headers which the seller took off and sold separately. Have to sort it all out when i get home.

The engine has 853 heads. My other '00 has 241's. Mid-year change, perhaps? This one is supposed to have been an '00 Z28, the first one '00 SS - maybe?

Not sure it matters, especially if I work over the 317's and put them on.

 

not sure if this will help or not. but when i had a 2002 chevy silvy ext cab with a 5.3 i had the following mods. k&n intake-electric fans-long tubes-random tech cats-true dual-ported tb-4l80e built-vig 3000 stall-4.10 gears-and a 175 shot of juice. 4851 pounds with me in it. n/a 13.70. with the gas 12.79@108. cam--comp-226-228-581-588-114+4. big cam for a 5.3. most of the guys with the 6.0's were in the 224 and a little bigger. with correct tuning even they were tame. but they ran very well. hell man i still miss her. and a denali front clip.

 

sell the 853s and the 317s then buy some 243s for a little more IMO.

 

How 'bout sell the 853's, shave and spring the 317's, forget looking for 243's. . .

 

Why are you so set on the 317s? Just because they have the same ports as the 243s? Tony Mamo of AFR says the compression is more important than the flow. This is even more applicable at high elevation. And since the 817s have LS1 style chambers, not LS6 style, you're losing out on half the benefit, even if compression was equal.
You need a full ratio more compression than at sea level, so the 317 heads are all wrong. They're popular for entry-level turbo, at low elevation, but if your'e serious about big boost pressure numbers, then the only large-chamber heads to consider are AFR.
#241 / #853 heads on an LQ4 is only 9.86:1 static, and with that, you can run up to 1 bar of boost pressure, no problem. Above 1 bar, you should be getting AFR heads.

 

Well, maybe I haven't researched thoroughly enough. My understanding was the 853's weren't as good flowing as 241's, and 241's weren't as good a 317's. 317's might not be 243's or aftermarket, but unless I come across a sweetheart deal, 243's or aftermarket ain't gonna happen.

I will have the 317's shaved to bring the compression back up. I do not plan on building an altitude-specific combo, either. It needs to be able to run at sea level, and whatever it runs at elevation will be what it runs at elevation.

The reason I am "set" is because I am not going to buy a different set of heads for this engine. It's either stick with the 853's, or work over the 317's. I don't want to get caught up in a bunch of "while I'm at it" cost balloons. If someone would be willing to trade a set of 243's or aftermarket heads for stuff I've got, then maybe it could happen.

 

It's your build, do it your way. The 853s are good enough that on an LQ4, with the GMPP HOT cam, they give 491 crank hp at 6200 rpm. That's very good.

 

That seems to be a common theme: "With (xxx part) we made yyy HP. With just a change to (zzz part), it made 1.x more power."

I suppose I should look around. Professionally ported 243 heads with Patriot Gold dual springs, $900 on tech, for instance. That's $255 worth of springs, so the heads are only $645, right?

 

Correct regarding your comments re 241 vs 853 they are the exact same casting but they are cast in different ways hence the new 241 number. 853 are sand cast and 241's are cantrecallwhatthehecktheprocessisnamedrightnow cast butregardless the ports are identical aside from most of the 241's appearing smoother in the ports.

The 317's are a better port than both and milled should work very nicely and be an upgrade over the other two. Just be careful on the piston to valve clearance

 

Well, there is sand cast, investment cast, permanent mold cast, and die cast. My guess would be investment cast.

 

me thinks we have a winner

 

Point taken.
As to the second half, no. See, just because we have to pay $255 if we order the springs, they buy the springs in quantity, so they pay less. Also, dual springs can allow dips in the torque curve that go away with beehives swapped in. Beehives are plenty good for .600" to 7000 rpm, but if you want even more spring, I'd suggest you look into using the beehives intended for BBC V8s. But getting ported 243s for about $650/pr, including the cores, is possible. Wegner does it. They're listed at the Competition Products website.

 

GM calls it SPM, for semi-permanent mold.

 

I dont like them beehives myself... Especially the comp ones I've seen a lot of engine failure threads with guys running beehives that broke but NOT ONE single thread of Patriot Golds ever breaking. For a few ponies it may cost I'll take reliability any day for my $$$. Plus they are the absolute best bang for the buck considering for 255 you also get ti retainers, super 7 locks, and new seals.

 

Okay, then we can't make a fair comparison without knowing the failure rate for each choice. COMP sells about 10,000 sets of beehives for each set of Gold dual springs that are sold, so it's expected we'd get more reports of COMP beehive failures. Next, we would need to sort out the failures from over-revving, the failures from too much lift, and so on. If you're running the beehives at their maximum lift and rpm, then they do need replaced every so often. But they will run over a quarter million miles if you're just driving a 0.550" cam / stock rocker, N/A combo under 6500 rpm.

 

Maybe. Maybe not. Im still never running those POS comp springs in an engine again they didnt do me any favors and this is on a few different cars now I've had issues COMP SUCKS!!! imo. Plus I know of many guys running p golds for a boat load of miles too without worry of limitations including myself I have 3 street/track driven seasons on mine and i hit the 7K limiter alll the time without worry. A local 9 second car ( 9.04 that is ) runs them so I cant see the logic. Why put a crutch on yourself before you start? Plus the Comps cost more to set up the same as the patriot kit, so for performance, price and reliability there is little to argue against the Patriot Golds as I see it but hey its your money if you like em go buy em but i wont.

 

Got $75 a piece for them. Pleased with that.

More stuff to unload. . .