Falconiroc

I'm a technology nut, I love high tech Engines, Transmissions, suspension systems, everything. Logic would say that I should buy a 4th gen, it has the engine, transmission, and suspension system I want. But like some of you, I don't really like the looks of 4th Gens. I am very partial to third-gen lines.

So here is where things start getting crazy.

I'm throwing around the Idea of putting a third-gen body on a 4th gen frame.

Some of you are going to be instant nay-sayers, and tell me it can't be done, and what-not, but honestly look at some of the full custom vehicles out there! I realize it would take a LOT of work, but it might be worth it, and it might just look good.

The reason I posted this is that there is a lot of knowledge here, so lets talk about this, what would the primary challenges be if this challenge were to be attempted?

I've done a bit of research so far, and I've been able to determine that both cars have a 101" wheel base. That is one of the positives. Here are some of the items I've thought of so far:

1. The Windshield in a 4th Gen extends further forward than in third-gens.
Option 1: Use the 4th Gen Windshield, trim a third gen hood to fit.
Option 2: Fabricate in the 3rd gen Windshield and A-Pillars. This would leave another challenge of what side windows to use though.

2. The B-Pillars are a different shape and would need to be blended into the third-gen rear quarter panels.

3. The 4th Gen rear hatch glass is a different shape, and size than the third-gen ones. I wonder if the rear hatch glass could be swapped over with some modifiction?

I've thought that using the lower body of a third-gen and the upper body of a fourth gen might not be too bad looking, what do you all think?

Anyway that is a good start.. I may be a bit here, but I thought I'd plant the seed and see what kind of information exchange it could trigger.

nickhil2003

i would love to see something like this, definitely subscribing, maybe photshop your ideas?

Falconiroc

I was playing around with taking a 4th Gen Windshield, A-pillar, Side windows, B Pillar and Hatch Glass and pasting it onto a third gen, but unfortunately I am not highly skilled in photoshop, so it didn't come out really clean, but it did seem to fit (I scaled them similarly by making the center of their wheels be the same distance since both cars have the same wheelbase) Anyone else want to give it a shot? I'm looking for a wireframe drawing of both cars so it will be easier.

built91Z28

I'm a little confused. First off, these are unibody cars so there is no frame to put a 3rd gen body on. Second, thousands of people have put a 4th gen motor/trans in third gens. Third, the rear axle is basically the same thing already. The only real difference between the third and 4th gen is that the 4th uses front upper and lower control arms.

What exactly are you looking to get out of a 4th gen "frame"?

nickhil2003

just out of curiosity are the 93-97 and 98-02 frames any different? im positive there not, but i need some reassurance. and what motor would you go with lt1,ls1,350.............. 572......... ?

built91Z28

93-02 use the same suspension. There is no traditional frame. Just mounting points for things.

Falconiroc

I am aware that they are unibody cars, which would mean that only the body panels would be swapped, and I also realize they are far from compatible, this would obviously be a custom job IF I were to do it. I'd be looking to go with an LSX Engine.

Its just an Idea, but I thought I'd ask and see what I can get.

built91Z28

I love custom stuff, so I'm not saying dont do it. Just making sure that you know that litteraly the only thing you will gain is the lower/upper front control arm setup. You can already put the motor/trans/axle/complete interior of the 4th in your 3rd. I think it may be easier to custom build a lower/upper control arm setup on your third.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I vaguely recall someone who had done something like this a few years back. But I'm too tired to look for it now. Happy searching.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Think it might end up an abomination.

85TAracer

iTrader: (5)

I'm with built91z28... I would keep it simple and figure out a way to use the new front suspension, using the upgraded LS1 brakes (or better) and then just swap in the drivetrain to the 3rd gen.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

I recall one LS1 show car that grafted the whole front suspension firewall forward into his 3rd camaro. Looked great, but never saw the point. Theres a thread about a 57 chevy swap in the fab forum using a 3rd gen chassis that left most people scratching their heads to why?

Im curious to why youd want the newer chassis under your 3rd? Ignoring the few upgrades like motor and electrical conveniences, the 3rd gen is superior in most of the rest. Suspension is simpler and more effective, more aerodynamic (generally speaking), more engine bay room, etc

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/auto...t-options.html

scroll down to post #16. it is fatals car. grafted 4th gen under the shell of his third gen. i have watched this car transform over the years in person.

Falconiroc

This is just throwing around Ideas, I'll give you guys the reasons:

1. Its mostly about the front suspension - I don't like the Idea of running spacers on the front wheels as I enjoy Auto-X and Road racing, and those are the activities which can possibly lead to difficulties with spacers (though spacers are usually just fine, and failures are not extremely common)

Aesthetically, the brakes are set too deeply when using 4th gen style rims and spacers, it is just nice to be able to see them well!

2. Power Rack and Pinion steering on 4th gens is superior to the third gen steering. There are manual racks out there, but Power rack would certainly be nice in parking lots, and things.



I never really thought there was a high likelihood of doing this as a project, but I wanted to throw out the possibility.

The other option I would like to explore is to use a 4th Gen style front suspension on a third gen car. I've searched several times in the forums and found some posts about it, but the nay sayers come out and quell the possibilities before people even discuss the challenges or details of what would be required to make it happen.

The advantage to adapting the 4th Gen Suspension would be:

-Easier Brake upgrades since 4th Gens use hub + rotors instead of integrated hubs/rotors which require replacement/modification in order to move up to a similar setup for third gens.

-Coil over suspension right out of the box

-Proper backspacing for 4th Gen and Corvette style rims without spacers (rear is simple, run 4th Gen size rear)

-Possibilities of using the 4th Gen Rack? (not sure on this one, I haven't looked at the two setups close enough to get any wild hairs)


There are a vast number of extremely smart people here, so lets talk about this, what do you guys think will be the challenges faced here? I have both a 3rd Gen, and 4th Gen to compare.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

This has been done already. Do a search. They guy moved the entire front end from a 4thgen. Coilovers and all.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

IIRC It was a red car.

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

the one that did it is in the post above. look for FATAL88 in your search. here are some more pics.
http://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o...lideshow#/grid

Firebat

iTrader: (7)

I don't see much gained for the work involved just because it would be a lot of work and see one important thing lost - engine bay room. I've heard a lot of people say thirdgens handle better than 4th gens anyway. I admit its a cool idea.

built91Z28

I did consider once building a custom front setup using upper/lower arms and power rack and pinion. I was also going to widen the distance between front hubs to give me more options on racks. I was not going to use 4th gen stuff though. If you look in the wheel well there is plenty of flat area that could be braced and tabs welded on to bolt upper arms on. Custom lower arms would have to be made that are longer than stock. I basically gave up on the idea though. I started digging around a little and started to realize that the ratio between the upper and lower arm lengths will affect how the suspension handles as it cycles up and down. Since I dont have lots of money to expeirement with different setups, I didnt want make the car worse. My main reason for doing it was just to see if I could do it. Thats the main reason I also custom made all the stuff under my car and got my true duals to tuck as high as I did.

Shift06

Are you saying you want the roof from a 4th gen? on a 3rd gen?

Honestly just swap the motor and trans. Nothing else is really that much better. And if you don't like the looks of the 4th gen why change ANYTHING to do with the 3rd gen lines.

1) If you're worried aboput using spacers, buy wheels with the proper offset instead of using vette wheels. Buying the right wheels will certainly be cheaper than fusing two cars together.

2) I believe Pocket was one of the people to swap in a Rack from a Fiero. I am sure it can be modified to your liking.

3) As for suspension in the rear, you aren't really gaining anything from the 4th gen, but you could do a fully independent rear swap from a C4 vette. Search the Fabrication forums.

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

have you thought of doing the GTZ concept?

Falconiroc

GTZ Concept? could you elaborate?

tkcaraudio

My 87 Has all the 02 SS Suspension/Rear End K Member Trans and a old school 355 in it

The car handles and rides great...

Good luck

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

it was a concept GM was playing with in the mid 80s. it basically looks liek a 93-97 camaro/firebird.








i'm sure you could find more pics.

it was a 4.3L V6 that is said to have had 290-360 horsepower. i always thought the exterior was sick, it was the perfect blend of 3rd and 4th gens

tkcaraudio

the gtz is SICK i want one lol

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

i always loved them and thought they were badass.

they havethe lt1-ish front end, the 4th gen firebird wing, the taillights are the same but flush, like the 4th gen. i just love them.

i tried posting more pics but they didnt work.

i once saw that someone took a 4th gen convertible, and remade a 1st gen. by that they took/made 1st gen body panels and put them on. it looks pretty sick, has the 1st gen body, but ls1 interior. it looked freakin sick. looking at the car you would only be able to tell somethings "weird" by the windshield being so sloped.

if they can do that, than i see no reason why you cant do what you want, or even the GTZ concept.

idk how you would go about it. maybe modify the fenders, then get an lt1 nose and modify that, or perhaps make a mold somehow of one and make it bigger?

then for the rear end, idk somehow create a flush bumper around the existing tailights, then slap on a firebird wrap around wing.

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

definitely wanna see how this works out... subscribing!

Falconiroc

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this, and since my timeline for my LSX swap has been pushed back, and I'm feeling a lot of pressure from my significant other to hold off for a bit while I'm still in graduate school, I'm leaning more towards a custom one of these for my swap:

http://www.streetshopinc.com/c5andc6for53-82.html


I believe that something like this custom swapped under a Third Gen body would be incredible. It's going to require a ton of work to get it to work, but in the end, it will yield exactly the results I want.

My ultimate goal:

To be able to show up at the road track race days with all the corvette guys and be able to consistently keep up with them, and even beat them sometimes, while keeping my favorite looking car body in the world.



The big hurdles I see in the project looking at it from a huge overview:

1. The rolling frame is going to be expensive, thats a given. But it will still be cheaper than buying a new corvette. The frame will need to be built with a wheel base of 101 in. - Camaro style.
2. I hope to have one built with the rear mounted trans, but that may seriously complicate things, though I've heard before of people extending the torque tube, so its not such an outlandish idea, the key item I am not sure on is how to extend the shifting linkage, though I can't see it being horrendously difficult.
3. Removal of the front and rear subframes will probably result in the removal of the majority or all of the floor pan, so that may end up as a completely custom piece.
4. Since the frame rails appear to run right down where the doors close, the doors may need to be modified, and sealed with custom seals.



Benefits:

1. C5/C6 Front and rear suspension/Brakes
2. C5/C6 Offset and Backspacing, so mounting the types of rims I want to run will come standard
3. The Car will be lighter overall since the subframes will be removed.
4. The engine compartment space should be retained since the Camaro bod panels and engine compartment hardware sans the frame rails and part of the wheel wells should be able to be retained.


I have a daily driver that is a lot of fun to drive in the '95 Firebird, so why not make the project a bit more of a challenge. I should have a decent amount of money to throw at it since It should be fairly easy to find work after I get my MBA.

Shift06

Just saying, but I am sure you can make your car keep up with vettes on the track without doing all this.

Falconiroc

You are very correct... except it wouldn't be very original that way.

Shift06

True, just a lot cheaper, easier, and maybe even more effective.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Being unique is only useful when the "unique" part improves upon something. I could swap a VW bug motor into my IROC. That would be unique, but it would also be very stupid. In this case, there simply is no benefit of doing what you propose. It'll cost a shitton of money, it'll probably never fit & look right, and there will be no actual benefit. By the time you frankenstein the car, it'll have nowhere the structural rigidity of even a stock thirdgen, and it'll probably weigh a thousand pounds more. The 4th gen uses the same rear suspension as the third gen, and the front suspension, while different, is no better. It's very simple, and very cheap to make a third gen out perform a stock 4th gen in any way imaginable.

The reason that you don't really see any unique or innovative designs in thirdgens, is that if there was a good idea out there somewhere, it's probably been done already.

One thing that follows your overall idea, but would actually prove beneficial, would be to drop a thirdgen body over a C5 drivetrain. Now you're talking about improved weight bias, improved suspension, improved motor/trans, etc. There have been some older muscle cars that have done this, but no thirdgens that I'm aware of. If I had unlimited time and resources, it would definitely be something that I'd love to tackle.

SheldonZ28

iTrader: (1)

So your aware, removing your subframes to replace them with a full frame will not make the car lighter, you will have to come up with a way to bond that complete frame to your thirdgen body, basically, sink the body over it, which means lots and lots of strengthening, which means you have to redesign the floor boards to fit a seat, a carpet, interior etc.

Next time you get a chance, compare a C5/6 Corvette to a thirdgen (Trust me, ive got a 89 iroc-z and a 99 Z51 Corvette), the suspension setup for a corvette, is not what you want in a thirdgen, beyond the fact their a transverse mounted mono leaf suspension, say you ditched the complete frame idea and decided to just fit the suspension into the car, they require a lower mount on a subframe, or custom bracketry, the upper mount needs a mount too, the thirdgens dont have the 12" or so needed between the subframe and a frame rail to mount the upper arm. This can all be made work, but in the end its heavier, and the thirdgen suspension can perform just as well with tubular arms and coilovers.

The corvette suspension was designed to sit high in the car, and the body very low around it, look at the stance of my corvette, not even lowered, and the body is 3" off the ground:



You may be able to fit the suspension into the thirdgen, but it requires slamming it on the ground, and becomes even less usable.

Its possible, but pointless.

Im all for the dare to be different, but id rather dare to be different, and prove that different is better. In this case, your taking a already potent suspension setup, investing unreal amounts of time and money into it, to make it perform to what it could have if you had left it the same and only invested 5% of what you could have spent just modding the stock setup.

Given:
C5/C6 Brakes can fit onto a thirdgen
Thirdgen suspension is extremely capable for not alot of money
Tubular parts & 1 arm mean its just as light as an aluminum double arm C5 setup

Im stoked to see how it turns out if you try it, but i honestly think you will be kicking yourself in the *** for wasting so much time making the car do what it could have easily done without all the time. Concidering C5 corvettes can be had for sub $10k these days (Ask me how i know... ), If you want a C5 corvette in a thirdgen, buy both for the same you would spend on the thirdgen and enjoy both

BUT, if you go ahead, i will be following your progress with hopes you can make something great!

Falconiroc

Since according to everyone here none of my messed up Ideas are any good, I'll keep them to myself, and build the same cars everyone else does.

I do however, appreciate the input positive or not.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

We're not trying to discourage you, only point out major flaws so you dont get done and wonder why everything sucks. Some of the best things you can do are experiment, but in the same sense you need to step back and ask why bother? Will this benefit in any way, is a method already in use doing the same thing more effectively, is this cost effective, etc

Do a search on 'tech for "Civette". Thats the best you can hope for with a 3rd gen mounting the C5 chassis, but be aware that 3rd gens already handle great and with a newer engine and some basic suspension upgrades you will be well into corvette territory

I read a neat build thread on 'tech a while back. Guy had a first gen camaro and a 98 C5 chassis he stuffed under it. After having to rebuild the frame a second time he said he had like $80k invested in it and it didnt handle nearly as good as a C5. It was better than the stock 67-69 parts, but definitely not even close to C5

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'm not surprised that it doesn't handle as good as a C5... the car is not only heaver, but the center of gravity has to be much, much higher than a stock C5.

But... like you said, I'm sure it was a huge improvement over the stock 1st gen handling, and that's really the point. With a thirdgen, you'd be facing a similar situation. There's no doubt that it won't handle nearly as well as a C5, but my guess is that you can achieve excellent handling characteristics without the punishing ride quality that it would take to get similar handling from a thirdgen suspension. Likewise, the IRS and more even weight distribution would sure be nice.

I do wonder how much weight it would add overall. I suspect that the front suspension could be a wash, and certainly if you're comparing total weight with the LS1 vs. the L98, there would be ample savings. The rear would be heavier, due primarily to the transaxle, but that's the beauty of it... a more even weight distribution.

Custom flooring & trans tunnels would be a must, as would a reworked fuel tank setup, but overall I still think that while not perfect, and perhaps not the "best" approach to making a thirdgen handle, it's still worthy of debate... if for no reason than to more effectively rule it out.

It would be neither cheap, nor easy, nor all that practical, but most "unique" builds usually aren't.



Images of a C5 rear suspension attached to a frame at the upper control arms:

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

my vote still goes for the GTZ concept.


completely change the cars drivetrain/suspension with C4,C5 and/or 4th gen parts.

even if you dont do the GTZ concept,

you said you love technology and stuff so i personally would take a 4th gen to start with. it would already have the interior,wiring, and drivetrain to start. then you could get fancy with the 3rd gen body parts.

i've seen many things done with these cars, i think it'd be pretty cool

$750 L98

Put a 4th gen front subframe/clip under a 3rd gen front, than is what Fatal88 did. The guy that did the fab work is a relative of mine, he basically describes it as a 4th gen from the firewall forward, including the subframe (so you can use forth gen headers).

The 4th gen isn't any wider than a 3rd gen up front, all you need is a donor to cut up and then you can reweld the 4th gen front into the rails of a 3rd gen.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Falcon nobody is raggin on your thoughts or ideas... If they are..they dont belong here in my opinion.

However... If you are new to thirdgens, or fairly new, you also have to take into consideration that many of us have been driving and working on these things for a long time now. Some since they were still rolling off the assembly line!!

That being said, what you are proposing has a few key issues that I think are drawing nay sayers.

First, from the firewall back, there is jsut ZERO advantage to the 4th gen over the thirdgen. None. Did you know that some of the rear suspension parts shared the same exact part numbers from 82-02? If you are building a serious performer, you SHOULD be looking into custom rears too. Like a 12-bolt or 9 inch or something. So you can set your width, and bracketry up how you'd like, and you'll be miles ahead, while still being somewhat unique, when it comes to the rear of the car.

For the front... Well, this is where you get into trouble. When I did my first LS1 swap, I toyed with the idea of using the 4th gen k-member. No luck there without major work. They're just really different. Can it be done? Yes. Others have mentioned Tim's car FATAL88. What an awesome machine. Perfect blend of the two cars in my opinion. But again, you're looking at some major fab. And some of these guys are being honest when they say youre gain will be minimal over a properly set up thirdgen. That brings you back to your wanting to be different...which is understandable.

It sounds to me, like you want to be unique, and build a performer that you can actually use. Unfortunatly, a lot of times, being unique is better for car shows and cruising around town. When building something to outperform other cars, you sometimes need to conform and adapt. Look at what is proven, and make yours better.

Please dont drop the idea or stop talking/thinking about just because others dont like the sounds of it. Just be aware, that sometimes things like this just need to be done, then you can say, "hey look what I did". People will change their tunes real quick if you are successful. I just ask that you do your homework, and make sure its something you really want to tackle...and that you wont end up ruining your car halfway through.

Also...check over on tech for guy named jasonwv or something like that. He's been toying with making a rear engine 4th gen and putting a frame under it and slamming it, chopping it, and bagging it. I dont know that he actually got much work done, but there is a TON of info and pictures of odds and ends that'll be helpful to you.

Good luck no matter what you end up doing with your car though man! Remember..its your car!

Falconiroc

All, I really do appreciate all of your input. I've been driving and wrenching on third Gens for about 12 years. I've owned 7 of them, but only two currently. I've just been throwing out ideas in my head about what type of project I'd like to do in the future since my plans for a current LSX swap have been slowed down due to the fact that I've started graduate school.

Some might say thats a real downer, and in some ways it is, but in other ways, when I get out of school I'll be qualified to make a good deal more money, and that potential only grows from there, which leaves me a lot more funding for my project.

Meanwhile I'm tossing a 6 spd into my '95 'bird and driving the hell out of it, and my '91 shell gets to sit and wait.

I've done an enormous amount of research on here (reading every single LSX build thread... some more than once) and on LS1Tech.com, though I haven't got through all the build threads yet. I remember seeing Fatal88's car back when it was still an L98 car, and then I remember when the first few LSX swaps started popping up, which is exactly when my desire to get one started! I took a hiatus from cars for a while, got married, bought a Harley,and now I've out-grown nearly being killed as a weekly occurrence on Arizona's freeways. I was ready to be surrounded in good ol fashion american steel again.

Sure, I want to be unique, but I don't want to sacrifice performance for it. What it boils down to is that I am a performance nut, and I want a car that will corner on rails, and accelerate well. I love the third-gen look, so it is a natural choice for me.

Oddly enough, the thing that triggered me looking into this in the first place was merely that I wanted to run modern wheels without spacers. The rear is easy, 4th Gen rears are a bolt-in and so are 9 bolts and 12 bolts that are designed for 4th Gens, so that would be the obvious route. The front suspension on the other hand was a different situation. I performed some searches in the suspension boards and things and I found where several people had been shot down asking questions about whether or not your suspension could be successfully moved outward 2 inches in the front, and everything dead-ended.

I figured that maybe doing some fab work to get a different suspension up front could accomplish it without compromising performance, but that doesn't really seem possible, so I'll likely just be running spacers. It was worth trying though.

I was only frustrated, not specifically offeneded. I was being literal about doing what everyone else is doing, because the desires of many of the members here mirror mine, so you know the saying: If you can't beat em, join em.

I'm still interested in the IRS swap. I've seen three of them on third-gens, but I'm curious how they really perform. In the mean time I need to work on my welding and fab skills, as my welding skills are still in their infancy.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

I don't recall the user name but there is also a white 91 3rd gen with z06 rims. He did something completely different he has a one piece complete front end (front end, fenders, and hood) this was a lift off similar as a corvette. Well his car has a tubular front end.. looks unique he got rid of the bulky wells and all the material that hold the strut mounts in place... fatal 88 is probly the first on tech placing the 4th gen kmemmber and 4th gen suspension.. I know our cars can handle well.. I've droven few 4th gens.. but I can't say wether 4th gen front suspension can outperform a highly modified 3rdgen suspension.. what do u guys think?

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

He wasnt a member, just a guy having fun in his shop. Some photos leaked out when he posted it FS on ebay unfinished. Went for $2-300 or something ridiculously cheap, brand new set of Z06 wheels/tires too

Stock for stock, 3rd gens handled slightly better than 4ths. An extra decade or two of abuse/neglect and most handle pretty bad anymore. 4th gens are still relatively new so most out handle us. A well built 3rd against a well built 4th is still pretty close

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

nice check this out guys
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conver...rivetrain.html

Falconiroc

I was thinking on the way to work this morning (I have a lot of time to brain storm on my 1 hr commute) I have thought about tubular subframes a few times, and its pretty tempting. A lot of work, but very tempting.

This morning I was thinking of ways to modify a third-gen so that I can gain rigidity and strength. You can add subframe connectors, and even add 2 sets, which is a great Idea, but I was thinking that it would be neat to just take it to the next level.. This would require modification of the floor pan, but hell I'm thinking out of the box here.


In searching I was actually able to find a setup that is somewhat like what I'd like to create, but my setup would have a tunnel mounted Torque arm Bracket so I could run dual exhaust integrated.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...n-rough-2.html

The One that I would most be interested in would be the one that User TWIN_TURBO suggests. It would be a custom built setup using box tubing that is either bent or welded to contour to the pan for the inner Subframes.

I have always wanted an independent rear suspension, so I'd consider something like that in the future as well. I'm just looking to get the LSX Swap done first though.

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

as far as subframe connectors, they make ones for 4th gens that i think are called webbed or something like that

http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...roducts_id=196

SheldonZ28

iTrader: (1)

Here's a guy who's using a C5 driveline, but he has a full framed vehicle, so thats where it makes it a little more "do-able"

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conver...rivetrain.html

Im excited to see if you actually get the project done, and get some numbers out of the car, ill definately be the first to give a props for gettin it done

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

A GREAT and relatively cheap way to incease rigidity is to seam weld the car. Just some stitch welds every few inches will do the trick. That plus a good set of SFCs and you'll be pretty solid.

And even if you arent a master welder, you can do this job. Just practice on scrap first... But they dont have to be super pretty welds. As long as they're proper, and strong, it'll get the job done. Then some new seam sealer and you're good to go.

iansane

iTrader: (1)

I'd love to even see just a c5/c6 transaxle mounted in the rear of a thirdgen. Would help weight balance immensely. Someone just needs the coin to invest in a rolling chassis.

In my dream iteration you'd mount the motor low in the front with drysump/multi-disc clutch setup and weld in new rear frame rails to hold the trans/control arms and a new tank to fit confined space.

Subscribed.

Falconiroc

I'm curious how the couple C4 IRS cars handle. I wonder if they're seeing cornering improvements? There is the fact that the Camaro frame was never set up to have an IRS jammed into it. Because of this, and as others have pointed out the performance improvement may not be great.

On the other side of the coin however, if the IRS was properly implemented and supported there is no reason to believe it would behave any differently under a Camaro frame than a corvette frame.

I think it would be absolutely awesome to pull the whole frame/floorpan setup out from underneath my car, but the pricetag on such a project would be huge. I am an exceptional troubleshooter, and I'm an out of the box thinker for the most part, but my fabrication skills don't match up quite as well, though I am learning. I'd rather get back into my third-gen sooner rather than later, so doing that is not really within the cards at this stage.

What IS in the cards is getting the car running with a LSX engine with 6spd and a 4th Gen interior in. (see my build thread... progressing very slowly, but I expect it to pick up soon). HOWEVER, after that is complete I am moving on to my suspension which looks to be a good time to at least evaluate an IRS Swap.

While a C5/C6 Rear with Transaxle would be simply awesome, it would also introduce some very ugly frame work to get functioning. I'll tell you why:



1. The Frame Rails are set much further inward than the Existing Third-Gen frame Rails, so there would be no keeping the rear subframe. Since the Upper A-Arms mount to the frame rail, it would be very important to have this geometry correct.
2. Ok so we already know that we're not keeping the rear subframe, but now we wont be able to fit our fuel tank, so that means fuel cell.
3. The Transaxle will not clear the trans tunnel, so there will definitely not be stock back seats in the car, and the tunnel will be heavily modified.
4. The Torque Tube would need to be extended, but this has been done before, and is not a significant problem.


All-in-All, it would be a really cool swap, but its a LOT more work than a C4 Rear end swap with a relatively minor up-side in comparison ( Comparing apples to apples here being corvette to corvette) and we're still not solid that the conversion will improve handling over the Camaro suspension anyway.

The C4 IRS is much closer to fitting. If the Dana 44 Pumpkin is used, its pretty strong too. From the information I've read it can take you into the 10s and take a pretty strong beating. I'm not saying that its an easy swap either, because its not! But the advantage is that its been done before, and there are some good notes to take there.

Here is a thread from TGO of a C4IRS swap:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...-c4-irs-2.html

Just some food for thought.

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

I remember 1MeanZ once saying that there is a noticeable improvement. I also remember him comparing it to his 91 TA with a solid rear axle. Apparently the rear end of the TA would hop over an inch on a bump on a certain turn and the camaro would stay planted. I'm not sure why he deleted his posts though.