I have just aquired an 80k mile 92 rs, it is show room clean on the inside and has no body damage on the outside just usuall wear and tear. I am triin very hard to go the best direction for the time and money here..............................
I have an 09 ly6 truck engine and harness done by wait4me perf complete and ready to install with a t56, all I need is a tranny rebuild and the rest of the associated parts to do the ls swap or ...............................................
I have a 4 bolt late model small block all machine work done just need intenals and heads, computer is mega squirt and a 950 cfm tb with injectors only purchases would be headers, all acc on the 305 will work. My questions are what will make the best and most usualble power for the money?
I like the idea of the lsx but the investment over a set of cnc'd afrs and the right fuel managment its all real close money wise and I have a t56 for either one???????????

Atilla your thoughts on a build for a small block tbi 4 barrel and production fourbolt roller block with at least 500hp before the spray or boost??? This will be a driver not a just a strip car or trailer queen, thanks.

Lookin to stay up with the nieghbors new ZR1, with some old school sheetmetal!!

Thanks for all replies and all suggestions!!!

Collier

 

I really have used alot of the information here and have read severall of the swap threads and the pros and cons of the swap. I was just looking for some opinions of any and everyone on this subject, kinda dissapointed that I have not gotten any replies. Hope this forum continues to grow...............

 

350, to ls1, PROS and CONS

Ls1 pros

fuel efficiency
durability
power
and easy to work with

cons
expensive (kinda depends on what you go with performance to stock if you need parts i got some)

350
pros
CHEAP POWER
tons of parts
easy to work with

cons
gas millage is iffy
durabillity


EACH ARE GREAT but to be honest imo ls1 is a great investment. there is my

 

depends on your budget. Either way you are dumping a lot of money in either power set up if you are wanting to keep up with a zr1. i think you will be a lot happier with new technology

 

I have formally and seriously left TGO, except for Private Messages. But since you asked for me, I'll post this one post publicly.
You can get 490 horses from an AFR195-headed 383, with a 224/236-113, 503/520 cam, 1.52:1 rockers, RPM AirGap intake, and 1.75" long-tubes.
It'll pull 6500, but peak at 5800.
I think the LY6 is an iron-block 6.0L with the rectangular-port heads. If so, I'm against it. what you want is the aluminum 6.2L block with cathedral-port heads, but GM hasn't ever combined these.
If the lY6 is as I'm thinking, then it's not good for anything unless you put a 4"-stroke crank in it. Then it's okay above 2350 rpm.
With the T56, I wouldn't do either of these builds. Not enough cruise rpm for either combo. Sixth gear would be useless.
For the T56, with the budget you seem to be alluding to, I'd do an AFR-180 headed TPI 383, then add boost.
By the way, nothing against you, but because of certain other members who have not been banned, I will not look at this thread ever again, for any reason.

 

if you have both then sell the old school setup and toss in the gen 3 motor, it will be light years ahead of the old motor and make more power to boot.

 

why you leave tgo?

 

you might have to pm him haha.

 

I think your best bet here would to go with the gen 3 motor. But your going need to really make an good plan and spend plenty $ to keep up with the zr1's, and you cant just make just about as much power, for off the line they have peformance traction control, which will not help an pro driver but defintly will be an benifit towards an amateur. Good luck.

 

illegitimi non carborundum dude. There's a guy on another LS1 type site that can't spell beyond the 3rd grade level threatening to publish an "LS1 magizine" (sic).

You can't get this kind of entertainment anywhere else.

 

IT IS GOING TO BE A SHAME TO BE HERE WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE. and after all these years as a mechanic and seeing what and who people think they are is ridiculous. sorry to hear you are not going to be posting. the worst part about it all is everyone that has ever worked on an engine either knows it all or knows someone that thinks they know it all or last but not least have done it all.

best to you in the trails of life atilla.

 

I'm not who you asked for and he's already answered with an answer I don't really agree with at all but here goes.

Any reliable engine you build will NOT make 500hp before you add boost. Sure you can make the power and then add some form of forced induction but that's asking for a lot of trouble. Besides with the proper plan of attack, why would you want that much power without boost anyway?

If you are truly talking about a brand new ZR1 (and not a new to your neighbor C4 ZR1) then you are going to need a LOT. They weigh a little less than your car, have much more tire, and 638hp. Its a tall order to compete with a mid to upper 10 second factory car when you start building something yourself. You are going to need a LOT of suspension and chassis work. Good tires. A built (with better parts, not just rebuilt) t56, some form of aftermarket rear (or 8.8 if you want to venture there) and some seat time.

For the engine, no one as far as I know has completed a VVT equipped engine swap. So that will be tough. For performance, this is the part where I always disagree with Atilla. I just think his statements about what you need are wrong.

A turbo 6 liter is more than capable and no stroker setup needed. New rods and pistons on a stock crank are fine. Get a decent stock intake (still unsure of the FAST intakes with boost..), some good aftermarket (like Trick Flow or AFR) heads and a custom cam (DO NOT USE PAT G) will put you about where you need to be power wise.

A gen 1 sbc can make what you want but honestly its going to need an aftermarket block to be as reliable as I would want for my car. Especially after spending the money on the parts you would need. Again, a good turbo setup, properly built 355 (no stroker needed here either) bottom end, and a properly selected top end will get you what you want. I have seen almost 600rwhp on a 355 lt1 with a completely stock top end. I have seen dynos online of 8-900rwhp 355 lt1s with the proper top end. I realize that an lt1 isn't a gen 1 sbc but its going to dyno and function similarly once you go with aftermarket parts.

As for cruising rpms with a t56, I drove my old 94z28 with a 230/244 .576/.591 cam around on the stock tuning file (except raised idle rpm), stock 3.23 gears and a t56 with no problems in 6th at 40-50mph. Btw that was also on 4 cylinders due to a faulty opti...Properly tuned and built, you will not have a problem driving the car. But that's not a concern because you don't need a huge cam in a boosted engine either. Hell you could get away with even a stock cam from an LS6 if you wanted to.

The biggest thing to make your car compete with his will be traction and then power. You need both. Then simplicity will help keep this build on track. Keep it simple and be smart about parts selection (meaning, don't buy crazy expensive parts because they are "needed") and it could happen.

 

if you are talking about a newer lsx based engine then they can, have done, and will continue to make 500hp naturally aspirated and can be reliable. now there are differences in reliability as well. if you are trying to race the wind every time you stop. then no. if you take care of it then yes. there are plenty of them around on ls1tech. and i have owned one that lasted well over 4 years before i sold it. but again and as always. everyone is a genious and all have there opinion.

 

Did you have a bad experience?

 

Thanks for the replies, Im sorry to hear that some will not be commenting or viewing this build thread. Life always has its spectators and hecklers.
This will be a very thought out build, I swapped in an lt1 t-56 this week and will use it to base the build of the suspension and brakes with the stock engine until I have collected all the parts I need to swap motors either the lsx or a gen1.
Subframe connectors and other suspension parts are comming for next week.
I hope the vvt engine will work, the cam kit from mast motorsports claims to bring the engine very close to 500 fwhp.
Ive seen in person a trailblazer 6.0 with the z06 cam amd 150 shot put 506 to the wheels. Over and over again. Thats no headers and single 3 inch exhaust!!
Just fuel for the fire.

Thanks again

 

That is very good that you are thinking your build out well. For something like what you are talking about, I think it is a very important thing to think your build out properly. I've seen builds on here, and elsewhere that are well thought out and built right, and I've seen some that are thrown together with not much thought at all. I'm not insulting anyone at all, as many of those who might be offended there have a completed swap, and I don't, which doesn't leave much room for me to stand on.

I'm trying my best to think out my build the best I can during the next few months that I won't be able to make progress due to money/Holidays/moving, so I'm entertaining myself watching your builds.

This is not a bash to the Gen I guys at all, I have a lot of love for a nice Gen I motor that sounds great, runs hard, and performs well, but I've really fallen in love with the Gen III and Gen IV motors. They have proven themselves to be very reliable, very powerful, full of potential, and very drivable, even with lots of power under the hood.

 

With all the guys making 500 RWHP with cam/exhaust LS3s, I can't imagine why Atilla would not care for the rectangular-port (L92) headed motors. They make a ton of power. Good luck building a 500RWHP Gen-1 small block that can get 25mpg and idle like stock.

 

490 HP will barely get you to hang with a C6Z06 up to a 100mph, then its bye bye. Plus it wont be too fun to drive, I hated the street manners, poor gas mileage, and low peak numbers(5,800 peak) of my built SBC(fastburn LT4 set up) with a smaller cam.

There have been many solid builds with the 6.0 variants with L92 heads. Cathedral heads were restrictive vs. L92 heads up until AFR's new V2 heads.

Speartech boosted a nice build using the LS9 supercgarger: 91 Z28 LS2 408CI, L92/LS3 heads, LS9 Supercharger, LPE GT7 cam, Yank3000, 3450 raceweight.

9.87 ET, 138.91 MPH, 1.43 60' , 610 RWHP Mustang Dyno should take on a ZR1 through a T56.





http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/forced...rger-swap.html


Lol at a boosted 383 TPI keeping up with a ZR1!!!

 

Very capable power plants but 500whp ones wont idle like stock either You'd beable to tell something is up, and 25mpg would be a tall tale IMO since even the 6 spd LS3 stock vettes only rated at 26mpg at 430 crank hp, I dont see a larger cammed setup making more mpg. I havent seen numbers but I know the old cammed/heads C5's with near 400whp+ can get mid 20's, and I have heard up to about 30mpg. I dont know if LS3 can do that in a heavier car, probably better than any Gen I so its still a good idea.

I know my buddy's 2010 camaro with LS3 intake and full exhaust put down alittle over 400whp/400wtq. Cant beat that kinda power for the cubes and that idled like stock. Took my 383 some big cam to make that hp and fell alittle short on torque. Definately didnt idle like stock

 

There's some guys here that have close to 500whp putting down 30mpg in LS1's in 4th gens with T56s on very long trips, haven't talked to too many people with autos

 

You're right, it's not going to sound stock, but the point I was making is that it'll still idle at 800 rpm and won't buck like a mechanical bull in overdrive at low RPM. It's a perfectly usable vehicle at idle speeds. A 500 hp SBC won't be. As for mileage, I've seen plenty of LS3 Corvette owners claim 29-30mpg on the highway, and I've also seen a lot of guys see their mileage improve, or at the very least not degrade too badly with cam/headers/exhaust mods. With a T56 and reasonable gearing out back, I don't think 25mpg is really all that unattainable, but regardless what the exact number is, I doubt that a tweaked-out SBC would be anywhere close.

 

My old gen 1 sbc averaged 4-6mpg driving it around carbed with a too big to daily drive cam in it. My big cammed ls based motors have at least doubled that if not tripled it if I could keep my foot out of them, with basic wideband carb tuning.

 

Now I dont know much about carbs but isnt it difficult to setup a carb for mileage purposes? I can imagine getting the right internal parts in a carb to dial in perfect air fuels for mileage under low throttle loads would be difficult and/or time consuming.

LS1's are very efficient machines, but I would think a carbed LS1 wouldnt be much better given a cam with similar properties as a gen I motor (IE good duration, tight LSA, lots of overlap?), its just that a Gen III or better would make abit more power due to better head design.

 

Not me personally. A good friend that I have helped work on his car paid for a custom cam from pat and all he got was an off the shelf grind. Not worth the extra money or wait time associated with it. Only cars I have seen run good with "his" cams are internet cars anyway. I think the money can be better spent elsewhere or call up a shop and have them spec you something.

 

Hearsay?

Internet cars? You have to be kidding me? Pat G has cams across the country and even in the middle east putting down great numbers on the dynos and TRACKS. I would take the side of hundreds of happy clients vs. "your friends" alleged bad experience.

 

i have a pat g cam in my car.....and his specs were VERY close to the custom grind options I got from bullet cams and comp went way too mild when I told them "all out" cam. Then again the amount of shops in the country building cams for carbs and big single plane intakes is very rare.

 

It would be hearsay if it was a friend online and he told me this. Instead, I actually helped him build this car. I held the cam card, held the cam at one point. Helped him drop the motor off to be built. Helped him put the engine back in the car, etc, etc.

Engine wasn't a simple heads and cam setup either. Its a 408 with slightly hand finished Trick Flow heads and a ported FAST 95 intake with pretty big headers.

Like said, I would rather just write random numbers on a piece of toilet paper and have comp grind them out with a dremel then pay for his "services".

 

didn't realize $25 to pick out a cam was crazy expensive. Obviously your friend can just pull one out of a catalog just as easily then and pick his own.

 

Thanks for the replies and responses!! Now progress must go on. What cam would you'll suggest for this vvt 6.0? I've been searching the forums and I keep getting mixed signals. Any input would be appreciated.

 

first off keep up with a zr1. you better be rich. second--VVT did you say. that is a whole new critter. they are just now coming out with big cams for them. some cams can be run with the VVT. but for the best results you better remove the VVT and go bigger with a cam and custom specs.

for your car to keep up with a zr1 you better start checking into a c5r block and custom build.

 

If your sticking with VVT then a custom grind is the way to go IMO. Im running a 222/230 .600 EPS lobe VVT cam in my 6.2L

The big problem with VVT is PTV clearance because when you change the cam timing you put the valves closer to the pistons and this becomes especially delicate with performance grinds. Seeing as L92 heads seem to prefer higher lift than cathedrals and need a bigger split to compensate for the intake/exhaust flow differences it limits your options on off the shelf cams. Plus the VVT phaser has to work against the valve springs to manipulate the cam timing so you cant get too crazy with valve spring pressure or the phaser will fail. This makes lobe selection critical so you can control the valves with some decent beehive singles and not over stress the phaser. PatG is one of the few tuners out there who really works with VVT and understands its strengths and limitations and has some very good insight into VVT cams and their specific requirements and even if you dont like the grind he specs its only 25 bucks to get him to spec you a cam no one says you have to run it. As for the "not recommended" comment about him above? Cant please everybody no matter how good you are.

In short heres my advice; If you stick with VVT get a custom grind and be very careful to match up all the components properly

If you ditch the VVT and run a static cam grind then id go for a 230/246 XER, or LSL lobes and some PAC or Patriot Gold duals, hardened push rods, and seek out a very good tuner. One of the big advantages of DBW builds is a good tuner can tame down an uncivilized cam to very street friendly use vs a cable driven tb where its pretty much impossible.

But even with all that good luck keeping up with a new ZR1. Add a 150 shot and you'll get there though

Good luck