Z28FAST1

Apparently So Cal has the biggest concentration of anti- LSXswap *****(I call them TPI Cult). Any time someone post something related to LSX swaps in my region, they are put down/questioned/criticized resulting in a TPI v. LSX debate ensues.

Some TPI arguments:
1. TPI is better than LSX
2. It’s cheaper to make power with a TPI build vs. LSX build
3. LSX in 3rd gen is “bastardizing” your 3rd gen
4. Only TPI motors belong in 3rd gens
5. LSX in 3rd gens look ugly?
6. LSX swap cannot be done in your driveway
7. TPI can get comparable MPG’s to a LSX and even better


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/southern-california-area/593150-mikey-wants-ls1-swap.html

Just wondering if other regions receive the LSX swaps with the same hate/envy?

Omega

iTrader: (1)

He took that bombardment pretty well, I'm not sure I could have kept such a good attitude.


A few did point out couple of good issues.. the block, intake and 98 PCM quirks, but for a budget build he will love the new setup.

I have a 98 block also, but that didn't stop me from throwing all the goodies at it!

Shift06

I've seen DynoDon come into these subforums to promote TPI over LSX before. I supposed it is cheaper to build a TPI if you own your own header company and do all your own TPI port work and whatnot. But there are lots of people doing swaps and making money back from parting donor cars.

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

Ignorance! that all it is.... I cant even begin to believe theres still ppl out there saying the boat anchor TPI is better than the LSx platform... reading some of those post = mind blown...

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

i must admit, the TPI runners are sexy, but i like the LSX intake just as much. there's a reason GM dumped the TPI and has been working off of the LSX base for over 14 years... just saying.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I get nothing but love here.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

To the original poster. Bring your car to the track and we will run heads up. TPI versus LSx. No boost, no nitrous. The LA Invasion will probably be the best venue. Also it will give you some time to make some more mods. As your previous performance won't cut it. By the way I'm probably spotting you 200 pounds in race weight.

Also you are taking some things out of context in your post. Dyno Don clarifies his thoughts on the matter later in the thread. So continue on.

grover85

iTrader: (1)

Wow. I guess everyone where I live tries to put an LSX into anything. Even Fords. I had a 406 TPI in my car for three years. I am glad to be rid of it. Nothing like having zero power after 4800. I don't understand people. Why work with old technology. 6 bolt mains, heads with 200cc intake runners STOCK, less weight, and all around stronger motor for half the money.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

so i don't really get it! .. if the so cal tpi purist don't allow any other engine besides the tpi in a third gen. what do they think about the carbed set ups.. v6 turbo...what about lt1s lt4s lt5s in there? what about a big blocks ?


some one answer me that..

i guess California has a great impact on this.. the hell with emissions lol

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"so i don't really get it! .. if the so cal tpi purist don't allow any other engine besides the tpi in a third gen. what do they think about the carbed set ups.. v6 turbo...what about lt1s lt4s lt5s in there? what about a big blocks ? "

You guys are clueless as to what Don is trying to say. Apparently you guys have been brainwashed into a certain line of thought regarding what our TPI club is all about.

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

lol how

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

what is the club about then? i get your guys point of view about modifying the l98 and what not ..e iv been there done that and ditched it..
is that a issue? not for me. im very satisfied.best of both worlds once again.

when i get it all done ill say wow i got myself a 87 iroc with an ls1.. great 30 mpg.. instant power...no lack of power above 4800rpm i have fun driving the **** out it.. im 22 and i have plans to do even more. my plans not your guy's plans.
when the time is right id love to build a gta with a lsx engine..

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"1. TPI is better than LSX

lol how"

Who said that?

Z28FAST1

I believe you are the current fastest TPI member if I'm not mistaken. I will admit that i was impressed that your TPI did what it did @ LA Invasion(So Cal car show/cruise/track day).

Horrible track conditions with +3000 DA you ran:

12.1 @ 113 w/a 1.6 60 ft?

Work done by shop: After market heads (hand ported), aftermarket lower plenum(also hand ported), after market runners (also hand ported), TPI intake(also hand ported), cam, custom "dynodon" headers and exhaust.

Auto/stalled/geared running slicks and skinnies.

vs.

My LS1 w/small 224 cam, milled stock casting 98 heads(806), stock LS6 intake, hawks long tubes and corsa exhaust. All work except welding done in my driveway.

T56 w/12 bolt 3.08 gears(for future forced induction), slicks in the rear, heavy 18inch wheels up front(with spacers), full leather interior, sounds system, and dynamated complete interior.

12.41 @ 114 w/ 2.0 60ft time my first time running the car @ the 1/4 and first time racing with this set-up.

The next closest TPI was a stealth ram,heads, cam, botls ons that ran 12.8's @ 106 and the norm was a bunch of 13 sec TPI's.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"when i get it all done ill say wow i got myself a 87 iroc with an ls1.. great 30 mpg.. instant power...no lack of power above 4800rpm i have fun driving the **** out it."

Fine and dandy. No problems. Dyno Don gets 26mpg with his TPI. Our motors are not done in at 4800rpm and are not suffering from a lack of power. I'm having fun driving the **** out of my car so you are not alone.

There is more than one way to skin a cat so to speak. When some opens the hood on your car and sees the LSx motor they are going to expect it to be fast. Not a sleeper. When someone opens the hoods on our cars and sees a TPI system they do not automatically equate that to a fast car. We call that a sleeper. Your choice of what path to take.

If we get beat by a LSx powered car that is what people expect. When the LSx car gets beat by a TPI powered car that is not what people expect.

RockJay81

iTrader: (1)

wtf is TPI? oh i remember its like that NES we had as kids lmao

$750 L98

I loved my TPI, and yes you can make them fast, but I am sorry, my cammed/stalled LQ4 will run rings around a built TPI (I had one). A cam only 6.0 is good enough for 11's or better, depending on cam.

And I built it in my apartment garage...

Plus, my car still looks stock, right down to the gauges, I've had people ask "what's done to your TPI" after I popped the hood.

$750 L98

I'm sure that Porsche Cayman or C5 didn't expect my stock appearing 3rd gen to be as fast as it is

That's what I call a sleeper. Stock exterior, doesn't matter what you've got under the hood, just that it is fairly plain/stock looking - but does not run anywhere near stock.

A fast car is a fast car, regardless of the motor they choose. Looking at them, no one thinks a 3rd gen is fast, period. A LSX sleeper is just as much sleeper as a TPI is.

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

if its somewhat quiet too

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hell yes the intake system is ported and modified. That is one of the purposes of the club in improving the TPI intake system. Our short tube headers to your long tube headers. My race weight around 3650 pounds.

Again the point is there are a couple of ways to get performance out of our cars. Another motor such as the LSx route or improve what we already have. We have taken the latter route.

You can see all the TPI nay sayers posting in this thread. They are the ones that will have the red faces at the end of the race.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Looking at them, no one thinks a 3rd gen is fast, period. A LSX sleeper is just as much sleeper as a TPI is."

Unless you pull into a parking lot after the race and pop the hoods. One will say "oh you have a LSx motor no wonder it is so fast". Or " geez I did not think a TPI motor could go that fast".

$750 L98

But what does it gain you to be as elitist as the LSx elitists?

I've had both, I loved my TPI, and I loved my TPI stroker. But there is something very rewarding about dropping in a LSX and making it look at work like it was made for the car.

I don't think anyone is denying that a TPI can be made to go fast. I've had one. But when the multecs fail, the ignition system develops quirks, the 700r4 starts dying...you start looking at financial resources required to keep it alive.

In my case, keeping the TPI (new block, trans, harness)..it would have been more expensive to keep it. I spent good money on a built 383, which then dropped rings, it's a lot cheaper to buy a full pull LSx platform than it is to rebuild/refresh the TPI stuff.

You also have to weigh the technical advantages, it would be simply untrue and illogical to say the TPI is just as capable as the LSx. Times change, as technology, we don't run mechanical fuel injection anymore for a reason.

I enjoy my distributor-less ignition, I enjoy E85 capability, I enjoy the vastly superior head design, I enjoy the easy cam swaps, I enjoy the much more advanced tuning capability and OS, I enjoy how easy it is to pull the intake or heads, I enjoy the weight reduction, I enjoy a factory intake that supports over 500hp without being touched.

Again, can a TPI be built well? Yes, but is it easier or more cost effective to do so? No, the LSx is a very cost effective and powerful swap if you are a computer/electronic geek.

Been there, done that, anyone that says otherwise likely is just plain stubborn, or owns their own shop

$750 L98

That argument is as ignorant as it is to think that a TPI cannot be built to go fast. Who cares to impress those types anyway? A fast car is a fast car regardless of motor. Again, these swaps are not done because people think a TPI cannot be built to go fast. It's because they are a cost effective and readily available alternative to doing so.

That would be like some one assuming that a "muscle car" can beat a stock LS1 just because it's a "muscle car".

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

yes but not everyone decides to keep the originality in any vehicle. people get creative and dedicated.

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

You guys should be promoting LSx swaps! that way you can horde all the AWESOME TPI parts for the future when everyone realizes how amazing they are!!

$750 L98

For real, or they blow up the motor so many times you need a new block anyway, and and the trans was hating life LOL

I was proud of the motor/trans lasting to ~160k anyway. I still blame the ethanol they cut gasoline with for killing the original 350, it turns out, after all of your injectors rot - for some reason the car doesn't run right.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

'That argument is as ignorant as it is to think that a TPI cannot be built to go fast."

I stand by my statement. Most people but not all do not believe a TPI can can be made to go fast. They believe it rolls over at 4800rpm. Just looks at the posts here on 3rd Gen.

$750 L98

Stock intake? Yes it does. The intake was designed for a 305, giving the 350 even greater low end torque at the sacrifice of top end. The plenum and runners do not have the volume to sufficiently provide air throughout the 350s usable power band. It's been proven mathematically, and on the dyno. So has the gains from porting, porting however is not something that can be done by just anyone. There is a reason for the SR and LT1 intake conversions.

Sure you can hog them out and port them, but just like porting heads, not everyone is quite capable of getting phenomenal results from porting their TPI.

Not to mention I got tired of dealing with intake gaskets that refused to seal

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The problem here is this is mainly a Southern California thread. Our TPI club is about refining the TPI intake system and seeing what we can do with it as we are stuck with the California smog laws. Yes you can get an LSx certified if you want to spend the money and go to the state. So we are not talking about stock TPI systems. The original poster took a local discussing point and went nation wide with it with some exaggeration I might add. So those out of state do not have a handle on the original discussion or exactly what was said. They are only getting one side of it. Continue on.

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

i'm not seeing the argument in any of this. unless you think the TPI is better, stock for stock, which you never said.

your argument is that the TPI can be built to go fast. others agree. any motor can be built to go fast. I'm glad there are clubs like yours that's using the TPI and stretching its potential. all we have said is that the LS1 is better, stock for stock, and cheaper if you want to build it up. there is no argument there, so what's the argument about?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"unless you think the TPI is better, stock for stock, which you never said."

Exactly. Nobody said any such thing.

$750 L98

I get your point, but I still fail to see how that is relevant to the OPs questions about an LSX swap. The discussion is not about what YOU want to do, but what HE wants to do.

So, you are only seeing one side of it, not I. As I have already said, I love both platforms, but the LSX is far ahead tech and design wise. (not to mention extremely cheap right now) Most likely the OPs reasons for wanting the swap. And yes, I read the original thread.

$750 L98

He is basically just arguing that any other motor than TPI in the 3rd gen is ruining/bastardizing it. And that a modded TPI can outrun a ls1, which I never saw anyone debate

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

a refined TPI can be built to go fast.. but an ls1 is already fast as is.
not too many of the sc tpi guys have experienced with an ls1.
so how would you personally be able to claim or state that its can get very expensive??
majority of the guys with ls1 3rd gens have experienced with the sbc tpi in the past..
i havent seen or heard of anyone going from a tpi to an lsx back to tpi.

btw california isnt the superior dominant state. lets see what other people have to say ..


very true..

90-irocdx3

iTrader: (4)

I like the idea of lsx better, you can find more people that can tune it. It is hard to play the game with tpi especially if u are running boost. You only have a few people in california that can dyno tune it for you. I felt kind of frustrated when i tried to get my car tuned through dyno don. It wasnt him that i was frustrated it was one of the members on this board, i dont remember his name specifically but he kept on the gas on the dyno when the car was backfiring. I kind of felt like he was trying to blow my motor!! Maybe jealous who knows. It wasn't soon after that my motor did blow. I am not trying to offend the "so cal" board but it is frustrating when there is not many people who can tune this obd1 system without going out of state or getting a better harness. Lsx i feel is a better swap.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"The discussion is not about what YOU want to do, but what HE wants to do."

Here we go again playing the strawman card. I never said anything against what HE wants to do. I said there are a couple of ways to go about making more power including an LSx engine swap out. If he wants to go the LSx route that is fine with me.

90-irocdx3

iTrader: (4)

I agree! But this isn't going towards u specifically.

$750 L98

So you came into the LSX sub-forum to push your opinion for what reason? Because he went to the local forum asking for resources and input? Should have just directed him here and avoided the flame war altogether.

I'm not playing any card here, so don't start with the insults. My point is if you have no constructive information to provide the LSx community or the OP with....what are you doing? Other than trolling?

The man wants a LSx in his car, I don't think belittling him on some internet forum is going to change his mind, especially when he has a free LSx motor to play with.

But again if you insist on feeding the flames and chasing the engine swap community into their own forum, and calling people out, you are just a stubborn purist looking for a fight.

So I leave you with that, I will not play your game, I just felt a bit disappointed when I see a thread popping up about people chastising others for wanting to do motor swaps IN the LSx sub-forum.

But, a successful troll is successful, congratulations.

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

i hope there is someone running at least in the 11's with a tpi. we did it on top of a 406 small block. then ditched all of it for a 6.2 lsx.

i dont see the comparison actually. to me each has a an engine--one tpi and one lsx. each pull there engines and spend about the same and put them back in. the lsx will win out. lsx done at 4800 rpm's. nonsense. i have personally spun them to 7000 and have them still pulling. i wont knock the idea of the tpi. i think it is great people are sticking to them. but if people are going to bash each other over their ideas due to beliefs. then that is a shame.

80's and 90's technology will never win out in this contest.

show me a 8 second tpi car that can be driven on the street and have a/c. then i will believe.

$750 L98

He was referring the the "brick wall" that all TPI owners feel up top. I spin my 6.0 to 6600 all day long, and yes it makes power up there. TPI certainly wouldn't do that without good aggressive intake porting, LT1 retrofit, or HSR/MR.

But that was pretty much the point here, LSx tech is above and beyond, the guy got one for free, and parts/bolt ons are cheap. I am still not understanding why he feels the need to call out those with LSx swaps or give is opinion on irrelevant subjects.

The discussion at hand was LSx motors, and swapping them into 3rd gens. Not whether or not a TPI can be built to keep up with one...

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

whether it is a swap or not. i read the whole thing. and he was being knocked for the swap. as well as the performance.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"So you came into the LSX sub-forum to push your opinion for what reason? Because he went to the local forum asking for resources and input"

I suggest you read the original post one more time. I will post the pertinent part.

"Apparently So Cal has the biggest concentration of anti- LSXswap *****(I call them TPI Cult). Any time someone post something related to LSX swaps in my region, they are put down/questioned/criticized resulting in a TPI v. LSX debate ensues."

I see the words "So Cal" and "anti-LSXswap *****(I call them TPI Cult)". So who do you think he is talking about? I am member of the club he is refering to and posting my rebuttal. That is why I am in this thread. I also see a little name calling in the post.

By the way you are the one accusing me of saying things I never said.

$750 L98

You are in this thread proving his accusations true. And no, I haven't accused you of anything you haven't said..your "straw man" accusation.

Directly or not, you are implying the 3rd gen is something that should not be desecrated by having an LS motor swapped into it. Which is purely opinion, biased, and irrelevant to the OPs questions (in the original thread). Though you are clearly demonstrating the reason the OP of this thread felt the need to post a link to the other.

You then imply that you car will run his into the ground at the track, I'm sorry but there are cam only LS cars heavier than mine that run 11's, so unless you are claiming your car can defy physics, I assume you were being sarcastic or are modded beyond a "bolt on"/"cam only" shoot out LOL

That's like saying a top fuel dragster can out run him, no kidding? They have quite a bit more money into their cars.

I'd say calling some one out while bashing their motor as inadequate or inefficient is very much biased in favor of the TPI, and not reality.

A LS1 will put out over 400CHP with a tune and exhaust, my TPI certainly never did that. Cam only they can run 10's, my TPI never did that.

So sum it up into ONE sentence, just exactly what your point is. Because so far you make absolutely no sense and remind me why I so rarely visit the forum anymore.

injdinjn

I guess we screwed up somewhere as my TPI pulls to 6k and I run a 6800 chip. I'd try for more but I'd have to buy the whole 7k card of chips.


For the record here, if I was building my car today I would drop a LS in in a heartbeat. Yes, its a GP but I feel the same if I was going to build the GTA.

And you have to wonder how pure the purists are; GM or aftermarket block, 700 trans or 460e etc.
If all that matters is the block or not even that WTF is the argument.

Stock is a good thing - those GM engineers spent thousands of hours testing more then we ever could so if you can get 400hp stock vs 400hp modding the crap out of it, stock is better in my humble opinion.

$750 L98

Exactly, I guess that is why so few people other than us are replying to this thread lol, they see the biased troll and just skip the thread.

$750 L98

Exactly, so if the OP of the other thread can get a bolt on LS1 making 400hp for free, to drop into his GTA, as opposed to spending thousands to update/mod the TPI....more power to him.

I did the same, and I enjoy it very much, I also have a 4th gen. My cam only LQ4 produces about 480-500CHP, and my DD '99 Formula makes about 410-420CHP with just bolt on stuff and a tune.

I am just having trouble understanding why he is so hard pressed to force his preference on another, or insist that 20+ year old technology is just as good, apples vs apples , with a LSx.

Also, if you are running 6800 rpm on the stock runners/plenum that is pretty impressive. I was never able to get my TPI383 to flow anywhere near that well lol

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

wow 6800 is a good one. we shifted the 406 tpi at 6600. got to the point where it was holding it back. then went on a 750dp holley and a 11.40 was the max. then had a lean outon fuel. well there it went.

i suppose there will always be the ones that come to defend the old beliefs they have. and to i think it is funny also---lsx swap forum to do it.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

This thread made me Ell Oh Ell. Dyno Don posted some crap in my build thread about his stance on an lsx swap and nobody in my thread provoked him. So to that, I'd say **** off...I will continue to put these motors in these cars, even the rarer more saught after models, and I don't care if any purists think it's an obomination.

Here's MY stance on this argument:

If I could have taken a stock cube, stock heads, stock intake TPI motor and put am aftermarket camshaft in it and put down 420/407 to the wheels on a dyno, I would have done it. But that is physically impossible and every TPI purist knows it. So as it sits, I'm at a good 100+ rwhp more than a cam only L98 and as soon as I mod it more that gap is just gonna get bigger.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

One last time. I will try to make this as clear as possible. I never ever commented one way or the other on whether or not someone should put an LSx motor in their 3rd Gen car or the viability of doing so. That is their business. The reason I am posting in this thread was the accusations made by the original poster in post #1 about members of our club.

Now if the man from Austin cannot understand that statement so be it. If he has evidence otherwise point it out.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"If I could have taken a stock cube, stock heads, stock intake TPI motor and put am aftermarket camshaft in it and put down 420/407 to the wheels on a dyno, I would have done it. But that is physically impossible and every TPI purist knows it. So as it sits, I'm at a good 100+ rwhp more than a cam only L98 and as soon as I mod it more that gap is just gonna get bigger."

Yes, we get it. You don't have to pass California Smog.