Absolutely excellent job!!!


I have a difficult time looking at/ viewing all the Delphi Components, Tooling (Production and Repair), and Data as someone (like most members here) who are relatively unfamiliar with everything involved...

As someone who has had a tremendous amount of experience with everything being discussed...
I take for granted how someone who would be less experienced/ knowledgeable might have a difficult time trying to put everything together...
To the extent that they are successful with Connector Assembly/ Crimping/ Wiring with Delphi Components.

So i really applaud you guys (Especially @QwkTrip and @skinny z) for doing everything that you have to get this far!


Great Job Guys!!!

 

Thanks, bud. Yes, building my own harness has been the most time consuming and difficult thing I've ever done with my car. The amount of information I've had to learn is huge.

 

Just a quick update on the Holley HP shutting down suddenly. I have not had any issues since taking more care to maintain batteries. Not coincidental I'm sure. I'll call this a battle victory in the war of trying to keep a highly modified car on the road.

 

........................and did you create the "Proper" Ground and Power Circuits/ Connections ?

 

I've never had a wiring problem with this car. Quite amazing considering the shoddy work.

 

lol.. I feel like I just talked to myself in the mirror reading this post. Countless times I thought of selling but never did. Just kept the anchor in the garage till recently. You are right it has fun and looking forward to the LS swap in the future as well. Have to blow the 408 first according to she who must be obeyed lol.

 

It's been 3 years since I've done any real modifications to the car. I've been thinking off and on about ditching my shackle torque arm for a different style front mount. I finally took the plunge and bought one of those new VSE decoupled torque arms. VSE is owned by Matt Adams, who is the son of Herb Adams, and he is resurrecting most (all?) of the Herb Adams products for 3rd gen F-body.

This is the VSE decoupled torque arm kit. It has 3 major assemblies: (1) front bracket that mounts to the tunnel of the car; (2) top slider link; and (3) bottom snubber link. This is not a conventional rigid torque arm. The top and bottom links are decoupled to move independently. The idea is that the unit behaves like a short arm in acceleration, and like a long arm in braking, giving the best characteristics of a torque arm in each condition.



This photo gives you an idea of the size. It is a very short arm. Top is my current torque arm that is shorter than stock, lands just behind my T56 transmission. Middle arm is a UMI short arm, similar to a BMR Drag Pack. I'm using the UMI axle bracket on my other arm so I placed the UMI arm where it would sit if the bracket was attached. And bottom is the VSE decoupled arm.



This is a close up of the slider link. It consists of a piece of all-thread that slides inside a hollow aluminum tube, and some rubber biscuits that dampen shock loads and limit total motion.



Here you can see the slider components. I am concerned the steel threaded rod will chew up the aluminum sleeve, so I am swapping that out for a smooth shank bolt (Caterpillar p/n 220-2832) cut to length of 9 inches, and chamfered the leading edge so nothing tears up the inside of the tube. The bolt will get greased during final assembly.





This kit is made for the stock 10-bolt axle, and it turns out the upper axle bracket profile did not fit the pad of my Strange 12-bolt. But you won't believe what happened next.... Matt at VSE offered to make a 12-bolt axle bracket for me! I couldn't believe it!!! So I prepared some drawings and sent it to VSE and they sent me a revised bracket. The prototype was very close, I only had to do a bit of trimming, and I gave VSE the final dimensions so it can be incorporated into future builds for people with 12-bolt axle.
10-bolt bracket on left, 12-bolt bracket on right with upsize holes for 9/16" bolt.



The lower axle bracket fit the 12-bolt axle pad. The holes are sized for stock M12 bolts, so I opened up the holes with a 38/64" drill bit to accommodate the larger 9/16" bolts that I will carry over from my UMI kit. The old UMI washers had completely yielded and unsuitable for the job, so I sourced some stronger washers that fit inside the pockets, Caterpillar p/n 7X-0510.



The original coatings on the parts is not very good... I would plan on repainting it on your own. I scuffed up everything, degreased, sprayed with rattle can primer, followed by several coats of rattle can gloss black. I heard a rumor that higher gloss results in a tougher paint so that's the way I went. This is as far as I have gotten for now. Unfortunately I will have to redo my brake lines and fuel lines in order to get the tunnel bracket mounted to the car. I don't think that is any fault of VSE, nothing in my car is stock so things don't route where expected.

 

Here is an old magazine article from back in the day.

 

So would this unit be closer to like a mid length torque arm?? It looks like a really cool unit. Definitely want to see some install pics

 

The two parallel bars with the rubber bump stops on the end is the part of the torque arm that "lifts" on the trans tunnel during acceleration. The length of that bar is shorter than the mid-length UMI shown side-by-side in my pictures.

What differs greatly though is that the lower bar does not "pull down" on the body like a normal torque arm. It acts more like an old school traction bar with snubbers that hit the bracket in acceleration, and separates from the bracket during deceleration. That causes the upper slider link to behave like a long arm during braking, moving the suspension instant center into a more favorable position.

With a normal torque arm, the upper and lower bars are part of one solid structure. With the VSE setup, the upper and lower bars are literally "decoupled" from each other and move in different directions.

 

Well, you've expressed the disappointment with the function of your shackle mounted torque arm.
What's your objective with this new unit?
Is there some track time in your future?

 

Install it and see what happens.

I'm far less complicated a person than you might think. My motto is thinking hard just ruins a perfectly fun hobby.

 

My hobby tends to be ruined by spending too much and working too hard! (Case in point is having to buy another transmission and install another transmission. Sometimes more than once on each occasion! )

Having said that, I'll be following.
Might be that the short torque arm might be the 60' remedy for what ails me.

 

Dear Shifty,

Instead of hitting the reply button, I accidentally edited your post. And now the world has no idea what you said. And I don't either because I'm old and already forgot.

Yours Truly,
QwkTrip

 

I accidentally edited your post, Shifty, instead of replying with my own new post.

I am told it has been on 10 sec cars.

Haven't spent much time trying to unravel the mystery. I think it will become much more obvious after installed.

Regarding bending the upper link, I think the upper link moves mostly tangential to the axle rotation so it's mostly push-pull kind of action. The rod can change length, and both ends have spherical rod ends that can "wheel" as the rod angle is shifted. With that much degree of freedom, I kind of doubt there is much if any moment applied to the rod. The lower link though has to be strong in bending, and it is with 2 heavy square tubes and a pretty serious chunk of metal attached to the axle.

But I don't really know, I lost the ability to make free body diagrams a loooong time ago. If you don't use it, you lose it... and I done lost it!

 

Hobby car. Not a race car.
Still though you gotta do things to keep the car from being a hot mess. And the better the car works the more enjoyable it is to drive.

 

To be honest, I've done this too. I get it. No harm. I was wondering how strong this set-up will be? Those aluminum bars seem suspect to the bending loads they will receive, compared to a traditional aftermarket tubular unit. Maybe I need to see how its totally installed first. Lastly, has the price changed at all from the 1993 value of $680? Super curious to see how this works out.

 

You saw my guesses about the bending thing. I'm not sure there is much of any moment on the upper arm. I also think the reactions that cause axle housing to rotate are much stronger in acceleration than deceleration. I'm not sure the axle housing is applying much torque during braking.

List price is $1400.
I could probably arrange a group buy with some discount. But first I just wanna see how this thing works.

 

here is a video i found that shows the VSE installed... i don't have a facebook account, but i was able to get it to play so i could see it when i put it in full screen mode...

https://www.facebook.com/gen2racingsuspension/videos/ptfbgen-ii-3rd-gen-test-car/414431720285776/


it looks pretty interesting and a nice concept, i wonder about the potential fatigue on the top of the tunnel as that isn't a very large area to distribute the load

 

I have my doubts on that torque arm. Not the decouple action, but the small tubing under the axle pinion that takes all of the upward force in a bending motion. Unbalanced engineering decoupler made the rounds for a while with 4th gens and worked well, but had a more traditional TA shape. Even those were not known for their strength in high HP cars. It wouldn't be hard to calculate the force required to bend two pieces of tubing like that. The two giant TA bolts probably won't like being put into shear from one side only

UBE for reference, look at the more traditional A shaped TA
https://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/TA/

 

Validation has to come from somewhere though wouldn't you say? Seat of the pants is one thing. Track time something else.
Whatever the outcome, I'm keen to see what your results are and how you get there.

 

Certainly will be following this. I've been fascinated by this setup since I saw it at the T/A Nats a few years ago. I "want" it, but do not "need" it.

 

I experimented with those years ago.

I found the system to be a "Band-Aid" type of Modification.

A 12-Bolt or 9-Inch Differential with Adjustable Tubular Stock Geometry Suspension, Proper/ Tuned Front Struts, Rear Shocks, and Springs (correct Suspension Travel), and the Correct Tires for the Surface being Driven on...

Works out to be the best you can get until fighting Wheel-Stands past the current Suspensions Adjustments.

 

Those damn wheelies always ruin the fun! Hard on headers too.

That said, from a road racing point of view, or spirited street driving, they look to have their place. Qwik's perspective on the acceleration vs braking dichotomy I think has merit.

 

Been several years since a proper polish and wax. It is not my idea of fun, what you see here is about 20 hours of work.

Used the same detailing recipe that scottmoyer shared with me years ago. It works....

 

good job and great effort... looks fantastic!

 

I'm so jealous of single color, shiny cars. Your car just has the "it" stance. Looks so good.

 

qwk, have you done anything with that new torque arm set-up or waiting for winter? curious on how you like it

 

I have not installed it yet. The job requires moving my fuel lines which I'm not rushing to do right now. I need to re-think the whole fuel system and don't want to take it apart until the off-season.

That is if I even do it at all. This last spring I developed a new problem with my back where I get really bad pain laying under the car. I'm not sure I can even do the work if something doesn't improve.

 

indeed! 20 hours! I'll put in the overtime at work and pay to have it done. Unless I'm retired by the time I get around to it. Which is entirely likely.
I don't' think your ride could any redder! They say it's a radar speed trap beacon but it's does look great.

I can fully relate. I blew out another shoulder in April and was out of commission for 5 weeks. Months later I have all the strength of an 5 year old girl working under the car and trying top torque bolts and such.
Here's hoping you find a cure and get on the mend.
Good luck.

 

Thanks, Skinny. Hope you get better too.

Unfortunately a professional polish and wax like this costs in excess of $1000, probably closer to $1500.
That's why I do it myself, even if it is no fun.

And over the years I have also learned that, "Nobody cares more about my junk than I do." Meaning no matter how good intentioned somebody is, the car will always come back worse for the wear if you let somebody else touch it.

 

I have always wondered which stock oil pressure gage (V6 or V8) better maps to actual oil pressure when paired with the LS1 Camaro oil pressure sender. This turned out to be a bit of a brain twister but I think maybe I got it figured out.

The gage reading depends on electrical resistance of the Oil Pressure Sender (OPS). And stock V6, V8, and LS1 OPS have different calibrations. If you know the calibration of the OPS (Engine Oil Pressure vs. Resistance), and you know the calibration of the gage faceplate (Resistance vs. Displayed Oil Pressure), then you can predict what the gage will display at a given engine oil pressure.

First, I needed to establish what is the calibration of each of the stock gages. I found that information on page 1410 of the '88 Firebird Service Manual (link here). Interesting thing is both the V6 and V8 gage have the same internals, only the numbers on the faceplate is different.

Stock 3rd Gen Firebird
0 Ohm = 0 psi (V6) ; 0 psi (V8)
43 Ohm = 40 (V6) ; 30 psi (V8)
90 Ohm = 80 (V6) ; 60 psi (V8)

Next, I found calibration data for LS1 Camaro OPS on page 8-567 of the 2000 Camaro Service Manual (link here).

LS1 Camaro
0 Ohm = 0 psi
40 Ohm = 30 psi
100 Ohm = 80 psi

Now with all the resistance calibrations in hand, I can use that data to relate actual engine oil pressure to the pressure that will be displayed on the gage. The LS1 Calibration curve in the chart below is ideal with the LS1 Camaro OPS. V6 and V8 curves are what the stock 3rd gen gages will display.

It seems the V8 gage sucks, and the V6 gage really sucks when paired with the LS1 oil pressure sender. The V8 gage gives much better accuracy below 30 psi, but may not have the range (60 psi max) to work with a higher volume oil pump. If you choose the V6 gauge (80 psi max), then you'll need to focus more on what is a "normal" position on the gauge so that you can recognize when things become "not normal". All told, it might be a better idea to adapt a stock OPS to the LS engine instead of trying to use the LS1 sender. A V6 sender and gage combo will give an 80 psi range.

 

People typically use LS1 Camaro oil pressure sender, but now I am wondering if there is a different LS engine oil pressure sender with closer calibration to what is needed for our cars? My intake manifold is enormous and I don't have room for anything larger in diameter than a LS sensor (which barely fits).

Poking around in the Rock Auto website, they call out the same sender part numbers for both Silverado and Camaro, so no luck there. Corvette has a completely different kind of sender not compatible. And 1998 Camaro has a wildly different calibration of 0-1000 Ohm.

Anybody have a catalog of Delphi pressure senders that I could browse?

 

Good research! What are your next steps (if anything)!

My first thoughts went to seeing if an adapter can be found for the v6 sender.

 

Yep, we're thinking the same.

Looking at pictures of the stock 2.8L V6 oil pressure sender at Rock Auto website, it appears the sender is quite similar in shape to the LS sender (other than wrong thread). Maybe I can simply screw in a thread adapter and mount it to the LS engine.

I might still have my stock V6 sender laying around in my garage to check space claim with my manifold.

 

I've always considered the stock gauges as "close enough"

Do you really need the accuracy of 34psi vs 30 gauge reading? Above minimum and moves under load seemed more relevant. Modern ECUs log 3 wire pressure sensors to a much higher degree than the drivers eyeball

Same with the CTS showing a little low on LS swaps

Same with the tach being 50ish RPM low from actual

Same with the speedo needing minor tweaks from the calculated VSS scaler

The point is, you get the key info and can make decisions when something is out of the ordinary. I understand that this is largely a deep dive into OCD, but when is it worth the time. If the range was EX: inverted or completely different, Yes, tweak away as the gauge is now wholly useless without changes

 

Just a thought, but would an auduino be a useful interface module? Seems a simple method to change unique input to unique output in an if-then method

 

Making things work properly is part of the hobby.
And sometimes it is no more effort to get a good outcome than a lesser outcome.

In my case, the gage initially was at 0 psi hot idle which was freaking me out. I changed to a LS3/7 sender and have been feeding oil pressure into my Holley ECU for many years and looking at a dead gage in the dash. I want to get that gage working again... hopefully properly.

Arduino is beyond my skill set, I'll let somebody else solve that. I think all I need to do is match the OPS to the gage. And in my case I need the V6 gage with 80 psi range.

 

Quick, can't you just add the factory sending unit and wire back in the engine compartment for the dash gauge?
It may be a bit hokie having 2 sending units but should be simple?

 

There is lots of room with an LS3 intake manifold, can mount two sensors on a tee. But this LS7 MSD manifold is enormous, it envelops the pressure sensor.

And my headers don't allow mounting of another sensor above the oil filter.

I think the hardcore racers run plumbing to remote mounted sensors but that's more than I want to get into right now.

 

There is a cap plug on the Improved Racing oil cooler adapter for an oil pressure sending unit. I know you have one, I just don’t know if you are using it. This is where I put the sensor for the DD gauges.

 

This is where I have mine plumbed. It's a tight fit but works well.

 

Yes, I still have the Improved Racing cooler bypass that I bought from you years ago. Never attempted to actually mount it though because it looks like the header tubes will be right on it or just paper thin clearance (Hawks LS7 headers with 2" primaries). Maybe I need to not be lazy and pop off the stock cover and see what happens. I've been worried that an OEM style sender cannot handle the heat in that location.

I got a lot of excuses, huh?

 

Anybody know thread specs for 2.8L oili pressure sender? I only have a bolt thread checker kit, not other kinds of thread.

 

Rock auto says 1/8NPT for both V6 and SBC Camaros. I'd take that with a grain of salt


A 3rd oil port is the DR side of the timing cover where the oil pump gets primed. Same 16mm port as behind the intake. Had to use that a few times
If you use a 90* elbow on a Fbody LS1 oil bypass cover, you can keep the sender VERY close to the block
I've seen cheapo amazon bypass covers with the port on top, vs the side which may clear headers

Just spitballing

 

what a great read... lots of good info

 

Good? Yes.
Exhaustive? Most definitely!
Post number one thousand nine hundred and forty seven !!

 

Seems my Holley HP ECM finally went kaput. The car shut down in my driveway last fall and would not restart. The fuel pump stopped running and the ECM stopped communicating with laptop. I did shake test on the whole wiring harness and never lost power to the ECM.

Yesterday I swapped out for a spare Dominator that I've had laying around and the car ran good. But the Dominator does not fit under dash so I grit my teeth and ordered up another $$$$ HP ECM.

I was laid off from my job last fall and was going to sell the car but then it stopped running and winter came fast and hard. So I just pushed it back in the garage and let it sit until yesterday when I figured out the problem. I'm back to work again but still have to assess what to do with the car.

 

A couple of comments although none of which will aid your current situation. More like the empathetic thing I can do.
As far as being laid off goes, that's happened to me several times. Being a tradesman, it's not an unusual occurrence. But I will say that on the those occasions, the next job was always a step up. So I hope you remain optimistic about the future.
Speaking of future, yes I can relate to the car thing too. At some time soon, I'll be looking to unload my bucket of bolts. I'll be technically retiring from my day job at the end of this year and of course that means means a reduced revenue stream. The car is a hobby but also somewhat of an asset. Selling it puts money into another project. Or something anyway.
But the decision remains about the sale. Decisions perhaps more accurately stated. I've already started down that path but I'm in no great rush. Yours appears more imminent than mine even just based up you bringing up the prospect. I hope it plays out well, sell or keep.

On a different note but still on point with your post, the aftermarket EFI to me has always proved to be an expensive proposition. I can appreciate it's merits but man, "I grit my teeth and ordered up another $$$$ HP ECM. " is exactly why I'm still old school. Maybe sophisticated old school, but just the same, yours is not the first time that my enthusiast friends have had to grit their teeth.

Good luck Mr Q. Keep us posted.
@QwkTrip

 

Thanks, Skinny. I remember you lost job before. It was an awful experience, they don't know what they do to people. It was good to be humbled though, it was a life changing moment where my faith in God grew by leaps and bounds. God is working a change in my heart through this.