mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

ok, i posted a similar thread but... i'm seriously having issues deciding what to do.. and my last thread died with little to no responses... I've got MONEY, a SHOP, TOOLS, and a few buddies to help... I just need to make an EDUCATED decision.

so...

OK.. i have a 91 RS 305 T.B.I. (Tough But Inadequate)

motor needs work, trans is -shot-

Not worth it for me to fix either of them. they are paperweights as far as i care... I can get more for them by taking them to the scrap yard than i'd ever sell them for, and they are underpowered motors for the size of the car.

-----


Here are my options

1. 5.3L vortec ($550) +4L60E transmission (350-450$)

Bad *** motor, seriously upgradable, and comes with 100% of the crap i need to make it run... BUT..... i think i need an LS1 intake and oil pan to make it fit, and other things...

2. 5.3L vortec and a T56.

Not a cheap option, T56's seem to be pretty damn pricey, and i need to change a lot of crap to convert it to Manual... BUT ULTIMATELY, THAT'S WHAT I WANT... though, i WOULD be happy with an automatic for the foreseeable future.

3. I found an LT1 + 4L60E combo for 850$.

It "ran when it was pulled out of the car a year ago and has been sitting inside ever since".. blah blah, some guy out in the country pulled this out for whatever reason, either for a hotrod project, or who knows what. maybe it crapped out on him and he swapped it out, i have no idea, i haven't talked to the guy yet.

Also, i have no idea if -everything- it needs is really there or not, he says it comes with the ECM and whatever else..

I don't want to blow through my budget though, and buying that LT1 from this random guy could turn out to be a bad idea, especially if i have to have it rebuilt.

The guy who sells the 5.3's is a TRUSTED seller, and will hook me up if something goes wrong with the motor, or if it's bad to begin with...

---

So before i give my opinions beyond this,

i'd like to know yours...


5.3 vortec


LT1

?

I cant afford a noshit LS1, or i'd just go buy one.. and truthfully, i've found that the Iron block motors are way better for everything except for weight... and i'm 99% sure a 5.3 vortec is lighter than the 5.0 i have in there right now.


so...

opinions???/

1gary

My best advise is to take budget out of your vocabulary. It has been in the past to set a goal and even if you had to give up some other things and pc this together over time,it might be the best solution for you. Yeah-I like the T56 too.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

IF your budget is ok with it then get the 5.3 over the LT1, LT1 isnt a bad choice at all, especially on a budget, or for a limited few other reasons, but if the budget will allow it going gen 3 is something you'll never regret, going this route with the auto can always be upgraded to the T56 later.

Keep in mind for it to turn out nice with the 5.3 all you'll be really getting is a longblock.

Count on buying a car intake manifold, throttle body, fuel rail and injectors, front accessorys, harness or another harness, oil pan.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

whereas the LT1 was out of a 4th gen or a caprice or something.....


hmmm

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

For either of those the bare minimum would be a lot less, mainly the stuff you'd need with either swap:

PS hoses, fuel lines, fuel pump, preferribly headers, harness modification, a/c lines if retaining it.

Regal105

The only real drawback to ls based engines is that there butt ugly, definitely will be going ls tho once i install my 406 and grow tired of it!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me, functional simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, and is, therefore, the definition of beauty.

88monteSS

Don't forget option 4: LT1/T56, I still see them on craigslist around here a couple times a month for a decent price.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

aah....



LOL well... to respond to everyone collectively, i personally like the way the LS1 looks, especially with the corvette plastic covers etc.. it's sexy... clean.. stylish.

but.. the ones out of the trucks, eeh... they do look rather Frankenstein-ish.

OK.......


so..... i made a decision...

Today i called a guy who has the LT1- 4L60E pullout, he said it has all of the sensors, the ECU, fuel rails, even the FUSE BOXES out of the car it came in... ac pump, alternator, belt, everything.....

we'll see how accurate that is tomorrow, i'm headed across central texas to pick it up, leaving my house at 7:00 am, should be back at my shop by 10:30.

I borrowed a picker from a buddy tonight, it's already at my shop waiting for me to get there with the motor...


eeh........... the only drawback is that it is probably the lowest output LT1 they made..

the one out of the caddy. BUT.. it is for sure a 5.7

so that brings me to another question i will start a new thread for (WTF is the difference between them). i am in the process of reading the FAQ stickys n stuff so i can get a general idea of the other stupid questions i will have to ask, but, it says on one that the vette motors match up a lot better, blah blah, and... that's definitely not what i'm getting, soooo i have a feeling there is going to be a lot of fabrication to existing parts since i have the means of doing so vs the money to buy pre-fab stuff....

we'll see.

i'm definitely going to be blowing this forum up with questions,.


one in particular is about the VATS.. someone said "OH YEAH if i knew about the vats issue, it would have taken days not weeks" and that's (so far) the last mention of it...


so... yeah about that????????

actually... again, sounds like grounds for another post...

lol

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

The differences in the engine:

Its got iron heads, not aluminum like the F/Y body.

The harness comes off the LH front and mounts the pcm in the battery tray area.

The front accessorys are basically the same as the F body stuff, except it may have a clutch fan on there.

It will be pretty much the same as swapping in a 93-97 camaro/firebird engine.

VATS needs reprogramming to remove, you'll likely need a few other things changed in the programming, usually all done at the same time.

What year is the vehicle it came out of ?

88monteSS

Well if you like the way the ls1 looks with the fuel rail covers, I'm pretty sure the lt1 corvette fuel rail covers can be made to fit on the iron headed lt1s.

From what I remember, the major differences between the caddy & camaro/corvette versions are the heads & cam. Camaro/Corvette version used the same aluminum heads and (at least for 95, the year my lt1's from) the same cam, the major difference between them was all in the pcm tune. Caddy's used the same iron heads & cam (designed to for more torque to get those heavy cars moving) as the caprice & impalas, I've heard (my spec book is in the shop & I can't remember for certain) they were slightly lower compression than the alum. head version but were still rated at 260 HP / 330 lb·ft. If you'd rather have the aluminum heads, they can be had for about $100-$250.

As for things matching up, that's mainly talking about the accessories, the camaro & caddy lt1s had the a/c compressor mounted down low on the pass. side of the engine & if put in a 3rd gen the back of the compressor hits the crossmember. The corvette version mounts everything up top on the driver side where it doesn't hit anything. If you don't plan to run a/c all you need is an eliminator pulley (if you go that route pm me, I have a new GM one that I didn't use that I'd sell you cheap), but if you do want a/c you either have to notch your crossmember or use a relocation kit, which is what I did. The kit I used: http://www.brrs.efishant.com/index.p...pper&Itemid=60

As far as VATS, I used an aftermarket harness from Howell EFI so all I had to do was connect it to a couple switched power sources and a constant (however I do still have the stock 3rd gen vats starter disable connected since it works seperately from the PCM, if it ever fails I know exactly which 2 wires to connect to bypass it.) They also did the PCM programming to tell it to forget VATS & emissions and all the other crap & to also match my setup better. Personally I had a great experience with them & would definitely recommend you check them out if you decide to go with a standalone harness instead of trying to rework the existing one. They had no problems at all customizing my harness to my specific wants, i.e. adding extra length to some connectors, only putting a couple of the emissions connectors on, etc. Here's a link to their site http://howellefi.com/gm-lt1-products.html

And here's another site that sells some lt1 swap related parts (including the fuel rail covers ), but also has a very nice info page that includes some diagrams of the different accessory mountings I mentioned above: http://www.nookandtranny.com/Info_LT1.html

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

Well, i got the motor n transmission today, and all of the wiring, etc, it really doesn't look all that complicated, but.... i haven't really torn it apart and looked at it all that well yet.

i'm about 80% sure i can reuse the original one, though i'm 100% sure it's an incredibly time consuming prospect for someone (like me) who has never done an LT1 motor swap of any kind.

but... hey, if it saves me money, i don't mind spending the time.

as for the clutch style fan, the one i got had electric fans, and came with the radiator + fans. the radiator is way too big to fit in my car, but i'll definitely make use of the fans, one or both depending if they fit.


--

as far as differences between the motors, that's pretty much what i assumed and envisioned.

I didn't really look at the motor in depth today, i was too busy fixing other people's crap lol, but, thinking back, it does seem like they are cast iron heads, which honestly, doesn't bother me much, and i did assume that it was a lower compression motor, which, in my eye lends itself to boosted performance, so.... yeah, i don't mind about the cast iron heads.

I really don't plan to do much in the way of performance right off the bat, so my question is, do i REALLY need to get the ECU programmed, since it's a stock motor, stock cam, stock trans, blah blah, with the exception of the vats?

also,

AS for vats, i know it has to do with the computer, and i know that my current car has it, and it may or may not be the same setup blah blah,

but, a friend of mine had a 95 Z28 with an LT4 swap, and the way we omitted the vats was by using a resistor on one of the wires coming out of the dash from the key... i think it was a yellow one, i don't remember. we cut the wire, checked the resistance, put a resistor in it and no more vats.

but... i feel like it's going to be a different situation with me..

Also, i may or may not be asking the right questions.. i don't even know yet.


but it would make sense that vats could be turned off through a re-program..

I guess the main thing i'm trying to figure out is if i HAVE to have it re-programmed (in general) since i'm using everything exactly as is for now, and if the vats can be bypassed outside of the computer to still allow the car to run...

rr.... something...

-------


as for the fuel rail covers, yeah... i actually like the way the LT1 fuel rail covers look in the vettes too, maybe even better than the LS1. eventually i'll get a set of covers, not high on the priority list today though.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

wait... what's this about a key pass module???????

88monteSS

From what I remember from researching it it is possible to keep the vats since it was a seperate module.

Basically there is a little module in the dash that runs current through the resistor chip in your key & if the resistance is right it sends a signal to the ECM to allow the injectors to fire & it sends a signal to the starter enable relay that allows the starter to turn. If you know what pins on the LT1 PCM are the signal in, then all you have to do is connect the output from the VATS module to them. As far as the VATS bypass modules available, they do the same thing without actually checking the key resistance. What you & your friend did was just complete the key circuit with the same value resistor as the one on his key which made the vats module think the right key was in the ignition all the time.

Even with a stock motor, getting the PCM reprogrammed is probably going to be worth it, it should wake the motor up a little & also improve the shift points on the tranny. It will also make it forget about all those pesky emissions things like EGR & smog pump, the only remotely emissions thing left on mine is the canister purge valve & it doesn't even realize they're missing. You could skip the reprogramming & still omit those items, but then you would always have the CEL on & you wouldn't realize it if it decided to throw a new code one day. Some tuners will also offer retuning for free or greatly reduced pricing if your setup changes down the road too.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Just hooking up the vats wire from the stock vats module to the pcm will not work, the signal is different for different things and the module learns the first time its turned on.

Only way to do that i've seen discussed is the possiblity of starting with a brand new vats module and then having everything in place the first time you key on.

Yes a bypass module will work, but you really need to get the pcm programmed and basic reprogramming can be had cheap, you'll not likely have the same gear ratio as the car it was in, as well as other things that get changed depending on what you keep emission wise etc during the swap. A basic retune is something I do free on 94/95 pcms if i'm converting the harness.

Yes you can use the bbody harness, it fits great if you are ok with mounting the pcm in the front drivers side battery tray area.

You'll still need to do a lot of wiring work to make a usable harness, the fan wiring, fuel pump wiring, gauge wiring, starter wire, and power feed wiring all need to be thirdgen, then just the engine side of things the LT1 harness, getting something that fits well and works does take a good bit of time even if you know what youre doing.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Budget and LS...with a carb it is possible. EFI makes the price shoot up severly but I hate LT1 engines. Poor location of the distributor makes me hate them. Will never own one again unless free. As long as you ditch the 305, it is all good, the 5.3 with 6 speed may take
Longer but
You said it is what you want, that is the route I would have went, what I want.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

How in the world do you figure EFI makes the price "shoot up" ?

Intake and ignition box for the LS with a carb at nearly $700

A decent carb for $400

For that much you can easily cover EVERYTHING for efi on top of an LS1.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

unfortunately, i don't have time to respond thoroughly to everything that was stated, but thanks for the great info.

1. 88 Monte, that's exactly right, and jogged my memory about what we were doing. i also feel that there's a thread somewhere here that explains how to do it in detail.

so vats overall, i'll cross that bridge when i come to it.

re: re-programming, yeah most of the emmissions stuff is missing on the motor i got, so yeah, it will need to be re-programmed, and, yeah it will definitely wake it up,

i guess my main concern was just getting it in the car, and running, then worry about tuning once it is running. so am wondering if i have to tune it before i can get it to start. in the respect to vats, it seems fairly likely that i will.

2. i dont mind mounting the pcm in the hood area wherever it will fit. i don't feel like tearing apart my dash to run wire to where the existing PCM is, and most of those cars had them in the hood area, so.... it doesn't matter to me, i just have to make / fab a box to keep it dry.


3. i have another motorcycle i'm trying to sell, when it sells i'll probably get the Painless kit anyway, but i'm not afraid to solder extra length into wires on an existing harness if it saves me 350 + shipping, but... i dont know...

again, i'll have to find the wiring diagram for the stock motor and see how difficult it is in reality.

most of the plugs only fit into their like kind of plugs, so you really can't screw it up all that bad. the harness is pretty much in tact in the box. just haven't taken it out and tried to figure out where everything goes. i'll probably do that BEFORE i mount the motor in the car lol.

i think if i get that part figured out, the rest of the swap is easy and i'll cross other bridges when i come to them, like hoses, fuel, etc.

i keep reading about people dismantling their entire freakin rear end to put a fuel pump in their tanks. that just.. doesn't sound fun....

i'm probably just going to cut a square out of the floor board, go in through the top, weld a lip onto the piece i cut off, get thick double sided tape to seal it, and steel rivet the pieces back together.

then if i ever have problems with the fuel pump i can just drill out the rivets..

seriously....... it takes a lot less time to pull up carpet and drill rivets than it does to drop a gas tank... lolol

not saying it's the RIGHT way, but..... it's an alternative. i don't have a 4 post lift in my shop.. i work on motorcycles.

i'll ask about the other stuff ater, i gotta go to work! lol


thanks guys!! i definitely appreciate all of the input so far, it'll help

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

The painless harness will gain you nothing, it will still require extensive work to make a usable thirdgen harness out of.

You need to make one harness out of the thirdgen harness and an LT1 harness, the painless harness is painless for what its intended for, something like a tbucket, for a thirdgen it would get you nothing more than starting with an existing factory harness.

For goodness sake, it takes 45 minutes to drop the fuel tank, you cant even reasonably hack your way in there without damaging things in that amount of time, put a quality fuel pump in and you'll never have to go back in there again.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

As for the harness, I have the harness IN the car, as well as the complete harness from the original car the LT1 was in, even down to the fuse boxes, the only thing that doesn't come on it really that i can see is the ignition switch, but everything else is there,

and it's been my plan to use the existing harness, but people made it sound like there is a specific kit by painless that hooks from the factory harness to an LT1 made specifically for a motor swap.... i obviously haven't talked to painless to figure out if that's the case, but that's kinda what i have been made to understand.

Something else that would help is if i had a wiring diagram.. I could figure it out pretty quick.

Aside from the ignition switch on the car, what do i REALLY need to hook into the 91 camaro wiring harness?

My speedo is crapped out, if i'm going less than 40, it pretty much always shows 0mph, then if i go above 40, SOMETIMES it comes back... my tach shows about 3000rpm higher than it actually is... i know the fix for the tach has to do with replacing resisters in the cluster, and i'm sure the speedo is similar, but.... the pulse rates are different between the LT1 and my current Tach, and i'm not sure what the fix is for that even if the tach did work. I'm sure it's been explained somewhere on the forum.

FUEL TANK:

As for the 45 minutes to drop the fuel tank, that may be the case if i had a 4 post lift, and can actually get under the car safely to do the work, and have enough room to drop the rear end down far enough to let the tank clear. though, removing the wheels will give additional clearance, and i do have a helper, but i can't really afford to PAY him to work on my personal car during the day when we have customer bikes to work on. Oh........ and not to mention, my exhaust is one piece... there is no disconnecting it from the cat. 1. there is no cat, 2. all of the seams are welded, and i'd have to cut the exhaust, and re-weld it......

though, given that, obviously, i'll have to cut the thing off to get the motor out anyway, so..... i can't use that as an excuse either...

and.. i'll have to fabricate a Y-pipe to match up to the LT1 headers too come to think about it. rather not spend the money on one unless i have to. not NOW anyway.. eventually i will replace all of that stuff, my goal is to have a RUNNING car by the time the inspection and registration are due on December 1st...

as for cutting a hole in the trunk pan, i definitely didn't say it was the right way, but.......... i'm a fabricator, i'm a welder, i'm not afraid to do it, have done it before on F-body cars, and as long as you know where the fuel lines are, it's really not a big deal..

the only thing i DO worry about in doing that is maybe cutting the electrical wires going to the tank and crossing them causing an arc and exploding the gas tank or something, but that's fairly unlikely to happen, especially if the battery is out of the car etc... i can always re-solder wires. and if i cut the fuel line, so what, apparently it's gotta be replaced as well..

again, not the best logic, but i'm 100% competent when it comes to fabrication / alteration etc. i wont cut through the gas tank lol.

--- WITH THAT SAID --------


This is where i digress:

I probably need to replace the suspension back there, (and definitely need to do the front suspension) in which case, i will have to take most of that crap apart anyway, and it's not that much of a stretch to drop the tank at the same time, and that would be ideal! The only issue is that i'm not going to be replacing the suspension before getting the motor running, so i need a quicker fix. the unfortunate part though, is that i can't safely RE WELD the trunk pan while the gas tank is installed lol..... which is why i mentioned seals and rivets rather than welding it.

another note about fuel pumps:

I just SOLD a walboro 255 not that long ago... wish i kept it!!!!! but i feel like it may have been overpowered for a stock application anyhow.

--

FUEL LINES????

So i've read on this post and on several others that i will need to re-do the fuel lines.. and, i know for a fact that the LT1 uses a clip style hose much like most modern fuel injected motorcycles, (wow.. actually come to think about it i have several bike hoses laying around with that kind of clip on them)

I guess my main question about the fuel line is, When people talk about replacing the fuel line for this swap, is it because they don't know where to find the clip endings that the LT1 takes, or because they don't want to retrofit a clip to an old fuel line, or because .... well the camaro itself is over 20 years old, and it's probably a safe bet that the line is dry rotted and cracked from age, or, is it something more like, the fuel pressure from the NEW higher pressure pump is too much for the existing hose to handle?

I'll check my fuel line, see what kind of shape it is in and will make a judgement call whether to replace it or not, but, again, i'm not afraid of fabrication and have probably a dozen fuel rail clips laying around and -may or may not- have at least 2 that will fit it, and if not, i can find them easily enough, i have a lot of friends with shops, and shops generally don't throw anything away if they serve a good purpose.

With that said, If someone tells me that the line i have isn't made to handle the extra pressure and may rupture, that's good enough reason for me to replace it even if it's in good shape.

The thing is, there was a LOT of work done to this car before i got it, and i'm fairly sure the fuel line was replaced in it when they changed out the fuel filter but i haven't verified it, i just know there is a receipt in the console that says it (and lots of other things) was replaced.. i got the car almost a year ago.

----

TRANSMISSION:

well..... something i haven't really seen addressed by doing a basic search, and maybe it's such a simple fix that no one has felt stupid enough to ask, but since i haven't been under my car to look yet, i'll just ask. lol

On the 4L60E, it should be a cable shifter of some sort. the car it came out of was a console shifter, so, there's definitely a cable. the transmission i have doesn't have a shift ... uh....... hmm.... i'm going to call it a "shift lever" for lack of better knowledge of part names coming out of the back of it.

there should be a lever coming out of it, and the wire(s) to the transmission mount to a bracket (which is on the tranny) and push/pull the lever to change gears..

question is, with the 700R4 one work in there? (or does this question make sense at all)

This is something that will be easily answered once i have both old and new motor on the ground next to eachother, or i have the car jacked up and can look under it... either way, it'll be a few days before i get to do this.

I have jobs to finish at work before i can play with my car.

I have more questions, but.... god... no one wants to sit and read all the crap i typed, so i'll leave it at this for now haha..


But please keep this in mind with everything i'm writing..... i'm not sure i'm GOING to do anything i said one way or the other, it's pretty much all speculation until i start tearing into it, i'm basically just trying to prep myself and familiarize myself with everything and have a game plan before i dive head first into it.

NOT HAVING A GAME PLAN AND A GENERAL UNDERSTANDING OF ORDER OF OPERATION IS WHERE 99% OF ENGINE SWAPS GO WRONG.. That is why so many cars lay torn into pieces wasting away in garages across the US.. they didn't have a game plan and didn't anticipate issues before they arose. OR.. they don't know how to work around issues, how to fabricate around things etc, and end up dumping crap loads of money on stuff they don't -necessarily- need when they could have fashioned it out of an existing part, used one off of a different car that does what you need, or something..

Research and planning are key...

and thanks to each of you for helping me sort it all out in my head and answering the questions no matter how obvious some of them are to you guys haha..

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Ignition is 310 for average, but we have a sponsor on tech letting then go for 275, the intake is 275 shipped, we are at 550$ not 700. A carb, like every other part in these EFI swaps used are cheap. Next to nothing up to the sky is the limit. I get mine for 50-100$. Guess what? I still use the free truck accessories that came with my junkyard engines as well. And the water pump. The set back is the lack of room or a air cleaner.

Carb is cheaper and simpler no matter how you slice it. You seem disgusted by that fact.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Oh yea, cared intake out flows whatever you get your hands in at that price new while the efi part used is still more.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Intake, injectors, throttle body, map sensor are free with the truck engine in that case.

I can get a harness, pcm, and maf for $200, total.

Where are we with this disgusting math ?

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

it's kind of a moot point about building a carbureted 5.3 LS motor with a T56 since i opted to get the LT1 4L60E combo instead, which has been the topic of this thread for a while now.. it's ok though...


I started on here fully prepared to bash the carb idea in the head like a baby seal..............

But...... i'm not going to......

Some people feel more like real mechanics if they have to constantly work on their cars to keep them running and don't care for fuel injection because... you know... it controls way too much of what the motor does... they'd rather be in control of every aspect of it and have to adjust it manually every few days!

I got sick of that a long *** time ago...

I've had a 47 chevy fleet master, a 64 falcon, a 76 T-bird, and several other carb cars, and have always ended up in this scenario where it's say at 3 AM, stranded in a grocery store parking lot in the dead of winter because the freakin car won't start and is flooding out the plugs..... CRAP... now the battery is freakin dead... great.... RRRRAAAARRRRRGGHH!!!!!!!!!!!! why isn't she answering her freakin phone!!!!! guess i'll just walk... screw it... it's just 6 miles.... naahh.. i don't need a jacket... i'll be fine...

yeah... been there.... done that... i am NOT into re-tuning my freakin carbs every 2 weeks... i refuse to do it... and i WILL FREAKING NOT sit in a grocery store parking lot pulling freakin spark plugs out and spraying carb cleaner on them and into the venturis trying to make my car start..... period...

if someone only created something more compatible for us posers......

kinda like having a little mysterious magical electrical elf guy living under your hood who's only job is to be constantly re-jetting, constantly adjusting timing, constantly checking the fuel air ratio, and constantly checking your engine's health, putting on little lights in your dash if something goes wrong, and optimizing your motor to run more efficiently without YOU having to do it, you know...

like.... maybe.... put a PC in there... no wait... i got it... make a computer just for the motor.. yeah that's it....

---------

Actually i have several other reasons for not wanting to, the biggest one being fuel efficiency, AND...... the fact that you missed the post where i said i have already purchased the LT1 with a 4L60E. in fairness, i tend to type a LOT in my posts, but all of the supporting posts regarding how to make that motor run should have probably tipped you off maybe, but i'm not sure.

So........ yeah..


my GOAL with this car is for it to be a budget build... EVERY expense spared except for the bare essentials so i can get it on the road and start driving it before the inspection and registration go out in November and december respectively

I don't have a ton of money to throw at it, so i need to make it work with what i have, or buy what i NEED to have....

at least for now..

as time progresses, i'll cam it out, put bigger injectors on it, crap like that, and get a little more power out of it.

But..........

at the same time, i don't want to dump too much money into THAT motor either....

the LT1 i mean...

there is only so much power you can safely put to the bottom end of an LT1 without splaying the mains, zero decking, balance, blueprint, honing, and serious machining, and upgrading to forged pistons, rods, crank, blah blah.......

whereas, an LS1 has a 6 bolt main already, and tends to be able to handle a crapload more power with considerably less machining...... and there's a 10,000$ build up instead of 20,000$ to get serious power...

with that said....... i'm not sure if the TRUCK motors are 6 bolt mains or not..... wow... probably not!!!! ???

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Yes the truck motors are.


Now back to your questions and swap.

The harness, you have to use this stuff from the thirdgen harness:

Power feed wiring, this is where the whole car gets its battery power from, through the c100 bulkhead connector at the firewall.

Gauge wiring, some goes through the c100, some goes through the C207 underdash connector.

Power wiring to supply the harness, again some comes from each

Fans and fuel pump wiring, this is a combination of a little of each harness. The main portions of the thirdgen harness, connected to the correct points of the lt1 harness to activate them.

On the fuel lines the stock tpi lines are nowhere near long enough, so even if you just stuck the LT1 pushloc fitting on, it wont reach.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Yep, sure are, and they will not clear a stock hood. A carb will without air cleaner but that sucks for a real street driven car.

Who will mod your harness? You? What about unlocking the ECM? All that adds up. I can use ANY fuel pump with a carb. Any. My junkyard does not throw in throttle bodies, a holes. Anyway, I will still be cranking more power. And that is why into carbed. No need forarger injectors either. You sounds disgusted with carbs. But for many it is cost effective as well as headache free.

I like efi and carb, I just use the one that is cheaper and delivers more power in my hot rods. The 90 RS I have a build thread on here is efi. Not a race car, just a nice cruiser. The application fits. But cammed and looking for power, the carb is my preference.

OP, do not want to sound negative, but your carb issues may have been tuner issues. I can screw up a tune on a efi car just the same, but every carb car I have had, or rather built, never had the issues you claim. But that was because I made them the way they were. Been at more car meets than I can tell you about where I blipped the throttle after sitting for a while, fires up. The efi guys start and die because of their tuners. All in the setup like anything else. Now for my 91 RS, I will be going with the atomic or other efi, I'm sure fuel sloshing trying autocross would be a nightmare I simply do not want to battle with.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

Zone, please stop trolling lol.

Yes i will mod my own harness.. again..... i'm a mechanic, own a shop here in austin, blah blah, pretty capable..

i cannot tune my own ecu, i know someone locally who may be able to do a base tune on the car, then once i start modding, im sending it to ed wright in DFW.

anyhow..........


topic....

FUEL LINES: i'm going to go here in a little bit and put my car on stands and start looking over everything trying to come up with a game plan.

you said the TPI lines wont reach.....

i have a tBi, which may screw some things up... i THINK i remember only seeing 1 fuel line that screws into the tbi...

if that's the case, i wonder if i should get a metal T-fitting, and split it off at the 1 line and put the pushlocks on the end to adapt it to the LT1 fuel rails??????

and thx for the wiring info, is there documentation somewhere of this stuff?

I still haven't found wiring diagrams for either of them, and i'd think they would be stickied or in about 500 different posts here....... granted, i have only spent about 5 minutes total over the last week looking when i have a chance. but... i'm about to head to the shop, would be nice to find it before it left haha..

as for the speedo and tach, both are out in my car, so.... yeah.....

but the rest of the gauges still work... so i have to figure that out too.

i still need to call the guy i got that motor from and ask him what this motor came out of.. i forgot what he told me, but i need to know lol..

so... will a 93 camaro gauge cluster work on THAT ecu since it's from a caddy?

like.. pulse rates n crap like that? lol

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

TBI and tpi and v6 are the same for lines at the frame rail, yes the rubber hoses are different lengths, but none are long enough to reach for an LT1 swap.

There are diagrams and pinouts everywhere, you've gotta look.


Get a working gauge cluster, there is no reason for either of the tach or speedometer to not work, they use the same signals you'll have coming from the LT1 pcm. You just need a stock 90-92 cluster, the 4th gen cluster wont fit in the dashboard properly.

Making the other gauges work isnt an issue, the oil pressure sensor wire is in the thirdgen harness and goes through the c100 firewall connector, the temp gauge wire as well, they are tan and green respectively.

Also being a "mechanic" and someone who is good at building a hybrid harness from two very different electrical systems is not one and the same, i've seen plenty of wiring from "mechanics" that I wouldnt save from the scrap bin, aside from the stuff that doesnt work properly...

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

For once, we agree on something

All the info you need to do the swap is in the LS1 swap sticky at the top of the forum. Id read that top to bottom a few times before continuing in this thread

For what swap to consider, you'll have to weigh your options carefully. Id skip the $850 LT1 combo completely. 5.3/4L60E or 5.3/T56 is your choice. If you cant stand automatics, Id save up for a T56 from the start, but it'll set you back another $1000 over what an auto swap would cost

Being able to DIY the necessary parts like wiring, exhaust, fuel lines assembly, fabbing small brackets etc will save you TONs. Outsourcing these can easily double or triple your budget

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

He's already bought the LT1

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

:::yawn::: yeah... i bought the lt1 already, so LS swap info isn't necessary, though, i as always appreciate the comments, i just wish people would read the entire thread first, so i may get useful information about the questions at hand from multiple sources, though, z28, you are providing me with a TON of great info, and i really do appreciate it man...

but yeah, that's why i'm trying to keep the thread at 1 topic at a time at this point, so it's easier for someone in the future to read the order of operation that we're going through to figure this out even though these topics have been done to death already lol.

With that said..... (i'm going to regret this) for the guys talking about the LS, especially the dude in houston who's junk yard doesn't include everything on the motors, you may find this interesting..

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...2/viewall.html

They bought the complete motor in Houston for around 550 bux. i'm in austin, and the dude i talked to included everything also 550$ ... so... you need to find a new junk yard

With that said, man, i may have you look for some parts for me down there if i get stuck on something and cant find them here!


ok back on topic....

------

as for the gauge cluster, i the reason my tach doesn't work is due to the bad resister issue these are notorious for, that can be fixed, and i'm afraid to buy a used on off of ebay or somewhere because i have no idea if it's going to have the same issue or not.

the speedo, i haven't looked into why it has issues, the issues didn't start until my transmission started screwing up, so it may be ok and was just getting bad readings and didn't know how to interpret them or something.. or maybe there is a resister issue on that side too, i dont know. or... maybe the speedo works like the tach does and also needs to have resisters replaced. i don't know yet, i'll work on that when i'm ready to. there's a lot of work to do before i will need to figure out how fast i'm going. haha but yeah, i do need to make preparations from the start. hence the specific questions i've been asking.

i did read somewhere that the pulse rates were different between 3rd gens and LS motors, i don't know for sure about LT1's but, i suppose if you're telling me they are the same and will work, it's because you did it and had no problems. so i'll take it at face value.

though it is scary buying a new gauge cluster to find i have to alter crap regardless, or that the one i bought has bad resistors or whatever too and still have to dismantle it.

as for being a mechanic..... yeah, i kinda cringed when i wrote that. i honestly did...

i know a looooootttt of incompetent mechanics, and that being as it is, i really REALLY don't trust much of anyone to work on my stuff, so i started doing it on my own.

i'm actually more of a fabricator. but.. I build cafe racers ground up, fabricate metal, deal a LOT with wiring issues on modern sport bikes, deal a LOT with fuel injection, deal a lot with carbs, blah blah.. none of that sounds impressive just writing it into sentence form, but... .

i'll put it this way... i see my harness sitting in a box all raveled up into a ball.... and it doesn't scare me at all. i'm not the least bit apprehensive about it. which means i'm either stupid, crazy, or, can do it... I do absolutely understand the level of difficulty and frustration involved, but i know that with the resources available, and a lot of research, i'll figure it out. that and i know a lot of competent mechanics who have done their share of motor swaps or replacements and know their way around an LT1, AND 3rd gen camaros, but haven't necessarily combined the two... what i'm trying to do basically is fill in the gaps where the guys who have over 30 years experience wrenching on cars have asked me "well what do you do about this?"

i still haven't searched for the diagrams, i'll do that when i get to the shop and will check it out. like you said, they are everywhere on here lol...

but after looking them over for a day or two, i'll pretty much have the idea of what's up and will have more specific questions to ask, just have to figure out what i need to hook where to make the interior match the exterior (which has already been answered).

and i keep saying this, but..... i wonder if having the original fuse boxes will help..

everything is still hooked up to the original harness, though i haven't actually looked to see if the entire dash harness came with this motor or not...

OK... going to the shop finally. lol

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

The signal to the gauge cluster is 4000 PPM, thirdgen electronic speedometers no matter what, LT1 and LS1.

The only thing that doesnt match up for any of that is with an LS1 the standard tach output signal isnt the same.

If you dont mind spending the little bit of money, just get the alldata for both vehicles, quick access to the proper diagrams, and you can print stuff out if you need to.

I'd just use the diagrams for a 95 caprice / impala, even if your setup came from a 96-97 you'll save money, or have an easier time on the programming software, or finding someone with it, there are only small changes between the harnesses and you can account for this when doing the wiring.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

You mention sending out for a tune, do you not have a reputable shop that would be able to dyno tune? Or is peak performance not a concern?

88monteSS

Guys, give up trying to convince him to buy a LS motor, he's already taken the first step down the path to the dark side by buying a LT1, there's no turning back now

Mkay, I'm going to try to answer some of your concerns/give a slightly different viewpoint on them, on some things there are no definite right or wrong answers, as the correct answer is different depending on the person actually doing it.

As far as the harness, the painless & other swap harnesses are designed as standalone harness, basically all you have to do is connect them to a constant & switched power source & tap into the fuel pump power wire & they're ready to go. One of those will set you back anywhere from $500-$700, depending on where you get it & what options you pick. The advantage of doing that is that it's (relatively) easy to get the motor hooked up & ready to go, & you don't have to spend hours on end splicing the factory harnesses together. I had originally planned to make a hybrid harness for mine, but once I realized just how much was involved I knew it was more than I wanted to get into so I spent the coin on a swap harness. I still had to do some splicing, but nowhere near what I would've had to do with a hybrid. As far as wiring diagrams go, they're readily available if you practice some google fu, but if that doesn't work out I think I have all the 3rd gen & the LT1 4th gen diagrams, but idk how close the f-body wiring is to the b/d-body. Oh, and here is a thread I had saved in my favorites on the wiring http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/3rd-...ite-up-474185/ I think it might be in one of the stickies here, but if not there it is.

With cutting an access hole to reach the fuel pump without dropping the tank, remember that all the lines on top of the tank are hard lines, so you will have to cut them to be able to pull the pump out. Not a big deal if you have the tools & experience to put connectors on them to reconnect the pump, but they were the reason I abandoned my plans to put in an access door in favor of dropping the tank, plus as you mentioned, it was a good opportunity to do a little suspension maintenance, I went ahead and put new shocks & springs along with new sway bar bushings on while the rear end was dropped.

Yes your 700R4 will bolt right up to the LT1, but you will most likely need the kickdown cable & throttle body cable mounts (or whatever the thingy that the throttle cable connects to is called) from a 93 camaro. Also you will need to purchase a torque converter lockup controller such as these: http://howellefi.com/torque-converter-lockup-kit.html (the one I got, it was only $75 way back then lol) or these: http://www.summitracing.com/search/P...nverter+lockup I don't have any experience with the ones that I linked to from Summit, but I know my transmission guy was pretty impressed by the Howell kit.

For fuel lines I got a kit from a automotive plumbing shop in AZ (http://www.purechoicemotorsports.com/index.cfm) that included braided lines that had metric fittings on one end to connect to the stock hard lines & AN fittings on the other end, along with quick release to AN fittings to go on the LT1 fuel lines. I think it cost right around $100, but that's been a few years ago, I'm sure the price has gone up since then. There are also some members on here that offer similar options if you decide to get a kit rather than make your own, also the quick release to AN fittings are available on Ebay if you wanted to just get them & fab the rest up yourself.

You forgot to add beer to that, although it both helps (I've found help is easier to come by if you mention you have beer) & hinders (too much beer, well, you know...)

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Please, stop with telling people you just need to hookup power to a painless harness.

I'm making this a single post so that you see it, because you are spreading misinformation.

If you buy a painless harness you get the same thing as a stock 4th gen harness except with an extra fuse block supplying power to the very few connections that get power.

You get NONE of the wiring accomplished that comes with making a thirdgen swap harness, the factory engine harness has the engine wiring, gauge wiring, fan relay wiring, vehicle power supply, etc all in one harness.

All of that needs to be retained when doing a swap, the "painless" harness will just get you a $600 stock wiring harness and a $10 fuse block, all of the required work of combining the two harnesses is still required.

I could make a pigtail for $100 that would plug right into the harness and make a stock harness exactly the same as a "painless" harness, but it wouldnt do anyone any good on a thirdgen swap realistically.


There are about 6 power wires to the efi harness, hooking up those 6 is all you "saved" by buying the "painless" harness.

88monteSS

All I know is that I purchased a swap harness for mine (not a painless) that came with every connector I needed to get the engine running, including fan relays & wiring, but I'll shut up & go away now.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

so you mean to say that it was a harness designed specifically for doing a motor swap for an LT1 into a 3rd gen camaro and plugged everything into the motor and original harness accordingly?

link me please.....

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

If you bought a harness that came with fan relays and wiring, it wasnt a painless.

Even something that has fan relays and wiring has none of the C100 wiring, nor the C207 wiring.

Yes, they will make the engine run, making the engine run and having a functional car are two different things.

That harness costs more than having a stock harness turned into a fully functional thirdgen swap harness, and barely less than a complete new thirdgen swap harness.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

No, he means it had the power connections to supply the pcm and injectors with power and three relays.

It had none of the c100 wiring which supplys power to the vehicle, the gauge wiring that routes through it, nor any of the C207 dash plug wiring.

Let alone having an extra fuse block when the thirdgen chassis has one in place.

If you are interested in having your harness turned into a plug and play harness, or a complete new swap harness feel free to PM me, I can do either.

88monteSS

That's what I meant, sorry if I confused anyone, I guess I should rephrase things and call it a "standalone" harness instead of a "swap" harness. When I started the swap people that would make the hybrid harnesses were few & far between (or maybe just not advertising, idk), I thought about making one myself, but I know that I just do not have the patience to sit there and mess with wiring, I can do it, but I hate every minute of it, so I went the route of a standalone harness & made it work. Would I have rather gone with a plug & play like Z28ricer makes if I could have found someone to make it for me, definitely, but the options available to me at the time were standalone or make it myself.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Thats all i'm asking, it takes the headache out for some with a standalone harness, but the reality of it is that they only take care of a small part of the wiring, and even then its adding things that are already there, for something like a tbucket, or kit car they would be a great choice, for something with an electrical system to connect to, not so much.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

agreed....

i have a bunch of pics but i have no way to upload them at the moment from my shop computer..

but... seriously, so far, there has been pretty much no difficulty with plugging all this stuff back in to the motor.

Once i spread the harness out on the floor, i noticed i had 3 pieces... one for the COMPLETE dash (minus the various controls and dash components.. like air conditioning buttons, light bulbs (which are more or less integrated into whatever unit they are for nowadays) etc) which im not doing anything with at the moment, another smaller one that i'm not entirely sure what it's for, and...... of course i figured the one that had the computer attached would be the...... motor harness.. i was right!!!! haha


so i noted that someone said "it doesn't matter, as long as you don't mind the computer mounting on the left of your front of the hood in the battery bay" or something to that effect..

OOO! good starting point.....

and the guy i bought it from said "well here's the transmission plug, i'm not sure if it needs it's own control module or not blah blah blah" so...

OOO! another good starting point....

I now know the front and back!!!!


laid the thing next to the motor and started looking for plugs and plugging square plugs into square slots, round plugs into round slots,

Seriously, i remember doing this as a baby with the little plastic box with squares, circles, triangles, stars, half moons, and you put the shapes that look like them into the holes and they go into the little box.

hmm........

i guess you DO learn some things early on in life...

hahahaha...

anyway........ i literally have all but about 5 or 6 plugs, plugged into something and it took about two hours, and most of that was actually taking the time to inspect the hell out of the motor for defects and figure out exactly what every plug did and what it went to, and kinda routed the harness around the motor to figure out where it needs to go once i put the motor in etc....

seriously though.........

i agree with Z28 about buying an after mkt harness, of the few plugs that are left over, i know that they are the c100, c207 etc just... not entirely completely sure which one is which.......


and there are some things at the ends of them like the big "block of stuff" with the thick red cables that goes into the dash and things like that which i'll still need an explanation for.... but... i'll upload photos of all of this stuff in a bit.

really though, for people reading this in the future, just keep this in mind.....

if you have a good starting point, and you follow the wires, THESE HARNESSES ARE MADE TO FIT AROUND THE MOTOR, FORM FITTED........ if you start in one place and follow the wires around, the plug will be within a few inches of where it should be, and..........


they ONLY fit one direction, and there are several TYPES of plugs, and... it's actually really difficult to mess it up! if you have to FORCE it, it's not the right plug.

it's like putting a computer together. things only fit one way into one slot. there is no way to put a stick of ram into a video card slot... or a sata3 cable into the ram slot... it just... cant happen...

i think one potential problem is maybe if they start with the injectors, plugging them in backwards 8-1 and the wrong fuel rail or something, but aside from that, it's seriously basic basic pre-school skills

UP TO THIS POINT anyway......

Please don't get me wrong!!!! i know i'm about to be in for a nightmare combining the two and making a usable car...

but this part of it is pretty basic, so don't be afraid of it haha..


and, i think the only benefit to buying an aftermarket harness is that they come with an instruction book and a wiring diagram for $350-$800, and like was mentioned, they are not all inclusive, and so far no one yet has shown me one that says "yeah this one is specifically for putting an LT1 in your 89-92 camaro"

i really do wish people wouldn't recommend them to everyone, becuase as z28 said, there is a LOT of crap missing, and someone will go out and blow money they don't need to blow because they didn't know how to connect square plugs to square plugs round plugs to round plugs etc...

it's NOT difficult, save your money....


swapping the motor on an 08 Yamaha R6 is wayyyyyyyy WAYY more complicated than this has been so far..

long story short, a little common sense and a decent attention span will save you up to $800 and all you'd gain is an instructional book, when those resources are free online......

"?"

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

You havent converted anything, yet its not difficult at all ?

Plugging the engine connectors into the engine they go to isnt going to be hard at all.

When you've combined the two, and got a factory looking harness, then say its cake and you were done in an hour.

You seemed to misunderstand my post, the people who bought a "standalone" harness, just get a stock harness to start with for the most part, where your at now is just the beginning, you have two harnesses and need to make one.

Heres that harness you mentioned about just a made for LT1 thirdgen harness http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...cer/Harnesses/

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

p.s.

i've got the motor and trans on the cherry picker right now, it's NOT in the car... i'm doing a test fit with the motor out of the car so i can know how it all goes together BEFORE the motor goes into the car so i'm not trying to figure it out laying under it on a creeper with the car on jack stands searching for crap with a flashlight..

i think just that little insight probably saved me hours of frustration and annoyance...

But..... that's something that can be easily overlooked when the anticipation of having the motor sitting IN the car is urging you to carry on with and skip ahead.


which brings me back to a previous post where i said something about

order of operation.

I guess none of that really pertains to the people who are currently helping me out, i guess it's more for future readers lol...

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

lol yeah.. like i said, "up to this point"

and "i know i'm about to be in for a nightmare combining the two and making a usable car..."

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

My point is that you posted telling people not to worry, dive right in and do it yourself, but you are miles from the ocean, and standing there with just a paddle.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

i'll tell you one thing i AM worried about...


ODB I car

ODB II ECU....

so i feel like i'm going to have to replace a lot more of the dash wiring than i would otherwise...

has this part been covered up to this point?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

You shouldnt be using an obdII pcm, ideally you ant to use the 94/95 pcm, they were obdI, well the connector is anyway.

Even if you had an OBDII pcm, like an ls1, there are two wires to the obdII lt1 pcms to the aldl port and only one on the LS1

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

ah.. wait.... i was told it was out of a 96 caddy, and according to another site, 96-97 were ODB II...


the service code on my pcm says it is out of a 95, and therefore, should be ODB I... at least i think.....

grr.

lol

http://www.lt1swap.com/lt1_bcc.htm

service no 16188051 \\ code BMDT and of course there's another one that has been destroyed with age and cant read.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

confirmed.... ODB 1


1994-1995 OBD1 LT1 PCM (16188051)