five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Long time in coming, had the engine/trans since 2009, finally getting around to building it up.

This is just the beginning. Pulled the tranny (4L80E) today, the engine on the right in the pic is the 5.3 bored to 5.7 (we think) from my son's 2001 S10 Blazer - the damper spun on the crank snout, not going to take a chance with it so the crank from the 6.0 is going into it (since a 4" crank is going into the 6.0). The 317 heads were taken off back in 2009 since the engine arrived with water in the intake, were shaved in '10 and put on the LS1 that is now in Berlinetta #1.




Yep, it's a 6 liter...




The oil surfaces were absolutely horribly coated with oxidized oil gunk, extremely gooey stuff that gets on everything and is nearly impossible to clean off. But, the cylinders look amazing for 147k (according to the seller), you can still see crosshatch and no corrosion or pitting in the cylinders that had water sitting on them.




So, that's step one. Next is to get it apart, get the block up to the engine shop. Hopefully a .005" hone is all it will need (no reason to believe otherwise so far). Also taking the bare L92 heads up to him for valves, springs, et al, and assembly, along with all the gunky stuff for a thorough cleaning. Already have the offset rockers, L76 intake & fuel rail. Still need a bunch of stuff like TB, injectors, oil pan. I'm going LS1 accessories, so need a damper, alternator, water pump, and figure out how to run the belt without PS. I think I'm going with an electric water pump with idler pulley built into it (many $$$'s). For the tranny, need to get a higher stall converter, I think also a shift kit. Not sure if I'll have it gone through or just try it as is and see what happens.

Bunch of stuff to do, bunch of money to spend. But, the car's been down since June '10, so it'll be nice to have it back in action again.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

This is what I mean by "oil gunk". It's the slimiest, dirtiest, hardest to clean stuff I've ever seen. And it's everywhere.

86White_T/A305

Mmm oil sludge..pretty lol.Sounds like it will be a nice lil engine when assembled.What are the plans for cam..anything wild or a street cruiser?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Very similar build to mine! My 130k motor had equally impressive bores. They only measured .0015" above stock, so a .005" hone was all it took.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'm looking for about 50-75 more HP than the 396 had. So, more streetable than the 396, with more power. I'm not too hard to please...

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Hard to imagine even that much wear when you can still see the crosshatch, but, we'll see. Most kits do some bore over 4.000", so it'll probably end up 4.005".

ThirdGenDemon

It's amazing that the bores are in such great shape! Most of the ls engines I have seen around the net and the couple I have at home have awesome bores with the crosshatch still on them. Now, a Gen 1 or Gen 2 engine... That would be a different story. The small blocks I have torn down, and I have torn down a lot of them, all needed boring if not full sleeving. Does anyone know what the difference as to why they don't wear like that anymore?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It's a combination of better oil, better filtration, and better fuel control. The '57 283 had 90k miles on it when I got it, I had to ream the ridges at the top of the cylinders in order to get the pistons out. It had an oil bath air cleaner and was driven on dirt roads most of its life - both of which shortened that life.

I finished disassembling the 6.0 shortblock last night. The pistons all came out with hand pressure. Overall things looked pretty good, but the oil rings were all stuck in the groove (might be why the van was junked - it was using oil and they thought it was worn out). Most of the bearings looked almost new, although the front main was scored on the front half (in front of the groove). Not sure what that was about. The cam bearings showed the most wear. There are stains in the walls of the cylinders that had water in them (open intake valves), but nothing to even catch a fingernail on.

We'll probably polish the crank before putting it in the 5.3/5.7. Speaking of the 5.3/5.7, my son pulled the heads off it it last night. It was using oil as well. We had replaced the valve stem seals last spring, which apparently worked because the valves were nice and clean with no oil deposits. But, the edges of the piston crowns were also clean, indicating excessive oil getting by the rings. He hasn't pulled the pistons yet, but I suspect something isn't quite right there. There were fewer carbon deposits, but otherwise the cylinder walls didn't look much different than the 6.0.

Next hurdle is to get the block, heads, and parts I want cleaned to the shop. I'm going to use a builder in Ft. Collins, which means about a 4 hour commitment. He's only open M-F, so I'm either going to have to take time off, or wait until my next off-Friday.

On a side note, I was trying to remember the last time I pulled apart an engine. I assembled the ZZ4 clone in '05, but I bought that in pieces. I've done cam swaps and head work. But, I think the last one I took apart to the block was the 396, which I rebuilt in '97. I beat on that one for 13 years after getting it put back together, so I guess I don't feel too bad that it's been that long.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

In the spirit of, "Without pics, it didn't happen..."

Down to the bare block:




I told you it had a lot of oil gunk in it. Here's the valley:

ThirdGenDemon

Damn, thats nasty! Are you gonna hot tank it?

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

Ha, that's nothing! Check out what I'm dealing with on a 5.3 I'm using:

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Ewwwwwwwww!! Both you guys are making me feel better about what I started with!

Although...this thread is going to make me second guess my build once its stroke time haha.

J.

ThirdGenDemon

Man, that is way worse. I started out way better with the one I got. I guess I got lucky.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Absolutely. The water passages aren't the purest, either. The engine came from Florida - it would appear antifreeze maintenance wasn't high on their list (right below "regular oil changes"). It will be treated to all the "right" things, including all plugs and bearing removed, hot tanking, surface flatnesses checked and milled if necessary, main bearing bores checked and align honed if necessary, cylinders honed to match the pistons, new cam bearings. Then I'll assemble it with the stroker kit, which will be balanced.

Yes, I saw that. I assume you had already started with the solvent attempts.

I didn't get pictures of the heads when I pulled them, but they were pretty bad as well. We tried to clean them without disassembling in prep to sell, spent several hours on it; then I decided to use them, which included a refresh, anyway. Oh, well. They've provided excellent service so far in the LS1/4L60E car.

Back when I discovered water in this engine (which was sold as a running engine), the seller sent me a replacement longblock at no charge to resolve it. The 2nd one was much cleaner inside. But, I bartered that engine to a fellow TGO member, since I was planning on building this one, anyway. I had considered putting that 2nd 6.0 in the Camaro, got spooked away from that with all the pieces that would have to be gathered, bartered it away, then ended up with an LS1 in the Camaro, anyway. Then wished I had the 6.0 back. Water under the bridge...

cam-

Ive seen a couple of high milers with similar sludge fests going on inside. One of I knew the owner who bought it new. Babied it.... always "feather" footed around and even though it was maintained regular it had even more build up than both of yours. My thoughts are that the hot oil vapor we all complain about getting ingested into the engine via PCV and whatnot doesnt make it into the intake, but condenses and forms this sludge in the engine so this is why the cylinders look particularly pristine yet there is so much goop internally.

The ones run hard dont have the same sludge they ingest the hot vapor instead. So far this is my thinking

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I wouldn't quite put it like that. Water vapor is an issue when the engine isn't fully warmed up and doesn't evaporate off. Short trips will do that. This was most likely a service van, so short trips were probably its life. However, it was probably driven hard, as non-owners tend to do.

The other factor is the quality of the oil. A good PAO synthetic will not absorb or react with water like the typical petroleum or low-grade "synthetic". Few service vans are going to be run with a premium PAO synthetic, so deposits are going to happen.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Took a little road trip today:




Plus all the covers, and the rocker arms to get cleaned. The shop is going to get a Manley stroker kit, talk to Erson and Bullet about cams, pick pistons for about 10.5-10.75:1 CR, get valves/springs/retainers/keepers/seals for the heads and assemble. I'll assemble the shortblock when the block is ready and the kit balanced.

Progress.

I hope.

Tinbender59

that looks like the motor that I ran Castroil part synthetic oil in

cam-

I wasnt really talking about water condensation as most of the PCV problems are actually oil vapor. This is the latest thinking of PCV related issues theres some lit from GM directly discussing this with respect the the GenV LT1 engine and its improvements from emissions standpoints etc. Anyways clearly some oils work better than others and the engine I know of that had major sludge was serviced regularly at whatever shop so who knows what oil has gone into it from day one just like these pics posted, who knows whats been done to them or when the last oil change was? So guessing is strictly that. Guessing and im only theorizing here with my oil vapor thinking.

All I can say is this; GC 0w30 has worked very well for me.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Talked to the builder, the Manley stroker kit was more than he estimated earlier, but only $200 more (10%) than an Eagle kit. So, I told him to go ahead with the Manley kit.

He talked to Erson and Bullet. Bullet recommended a slightly smaller cam than Erson. A little conflicted about that because I've never heard a bad word about Bullet. Both estimated a 2500-7000 powerband, suggested using around 3000-3500 stall. The stall sounds a little low to me, I suppose they assume I want better street manners (I said to spec everything toward the strip, just keep it drivable). In my experience, a high-duration-cam'd engine is more streetable with more stall, but there I go again.

Probably won't be ready to pick up until next month, but at least there is movement.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Keep forgetting to ask: Anyone have a recommendation for a damper? I'm going LS1 accessories, and giving the 6.0 damper to my son to get his back together. I see SLP has a 25% underdrive SFI-rated unit, I may go for that.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

I like my ATI

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...ts/damserp.htm

Which one do you have? Did you pin it? Factory or aftermarket bolt?

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

oooh stroked 6.0L build. ill be tuning in for sure

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

I honestly don't remember if mine has an ac belt grove or not, so I'm not sure what part number it is. I know its a 10% underdrive, has a steel hub, and aluminum shell.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

66 durometer rubber?

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

I can't say for sure, but my interpretation of that table has part number 918852 as the only one specifying 40 durometer rubber, and that's not a 10% underdrive pulley like what I have.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'll give them a call, tell them what I've got and what I'm doing, and get their recommendation.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

Ok I went and looked. Mine is a part number 917277

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Okay, if you want 66 durometer rubber (which they recommend for full race), you add "-66" to the end of the part number.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Put in a pretty big order from Summit (at least, big to me). A good bit of it was the 9" housing/axle/brake stuff, but also most of what I need to get the engine together. Still need to find injectors, TB, and a lot of other little stuff. I hope to be able to assemble the engine during the week I have off between Christmas and New Years.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Summit orders are fun!!

What are you doing for injectors? Do you know what rating youre using? Are you getting them flowmatched?

Injectors are the last/next thing I have to figure out. I have SVO 30#er's right now, and since two were completely clogged during my dyno tune, I figured I was due for a nice new set. Just not sure what rating or whether to splurge for a matched set or not.

J.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I was going to get a set of LS3 injectors. They are 42#, and should support 500 HP at 80% duty cycle. I wasn't going to bother with flow matching.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Oh, and I went with that ATI damper, Matt. Didn't bother with the 66 durameter. Shouldn't be a problem for my use. I did get the pin kit, since we'll have a couple to do at the start, at least, and I think I'll do the Camaro engine(s) as well should they ever come out (ordered extra pins).

The shop is just about done with the heads. The block is cleaned and checked out. They'll hone it after the rotating kit arrives. I'll have them install the cam bearings. I'll put it together after that, unless they make me an offer I can't refuse. If the cam needs to be degree'd in, then I'll probably have them do that.

I have the week between Christmas and New Year's off (plant shuts down), so I'm hoping to get it assembled during that week, and maybe get the shift kit in the tranny. Still need to get a converter, so probably won't get it stabbed during that time. Several things I want to do to the car before the engine goes back in, anyway.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

awesome, you'll be happy with that balancer! so, which car is this going in? the green car?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The shoe box.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

ah-ha!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Just talked to the shop again. The owner took the day off yesterday, so I was talking to his son, who didn't have all of the details. Talked to the owner today.

It's basically ready to pick up. The rotating kit came in (4" forged crank, forged rods & pistons, main & rod bearings, rings), and the block was honed to match the pistons after being tanked. Cam bearings installed. Heads assembled. All the little parts I took to them to be tanked cleaned up.

The Summit order with all of the engine parts except the oil pan should be delivered tomorrow.

Still need to get lifters. Erson said to use "GM Performance" lifters. I assume that means LS7, but not sure.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Played hooky from work and went to pick it up.

Cam specs: Erson E110993 special grind, adv dur 294/302, dur @ .050" 234/242, lift at valve w/1.7 0.621", 114 LSA. That's a good bit more cam than I had in the 396. Should be interesting...

Heads look nice. All Manley stuff, polished dual springs. Not sure of lift capability or spring specs, but they knew the cam details before they got the head parts.

UPS says they delivered 3 boxes from Summit. One from each warehouse, ironically. Oh, the pan was available in Georgia, so it was included. The 9" housing will be coming later. Nothing like opening up Summit boxes!

cam-

thats a mighty big stick! I think those are LSR lobes! Been waiting for someone I know to play with them. Awesome that thing is gonna buzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Podium

iTrader: (2)

I have heard from a couple of the countries top ls builders that underdrive pulleys are not good for stroked motors because they do not promote good harmonics with the increased stroke. Something to look into.

Also, I had a slp underdrive pulley and loved it. Easy to work with and I liked that it had raised "walls" around the pulley grove. That was on a 346 however.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Yeah {gulp}

Cam sheet calls them "LSHR". I hope the "R" means "rectangular" and not "roller". Couldn't make heads or tails out of their website info.

Yeah {gulp}

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

No such note on ATI's website. The table that includes the 917277 has a heading: "GM F-Body Serpentine Dampers INCLUDES LS1, LS2, LS3, LS6, & LS7". But, I'll call and ask.

Just realized both the crank and damper are keyed. So, no need for the pin kit on this one. Oh, well. We'll still use it on my son's 5.7.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The rings are file to fit, something I've never done before, so that will be a new experience. Not worried about it, just need to get a filer with the next order (which will include lifters, trunnion upgrade, a lifter guide to replace the one I stole for the LS1 that had eaten a lifter, etc.).

The rods are H-beams with bolts (need to find the torque or stretch specs) and floating pins. Also something I haven't dealt with before - I don't have a stretch gauge; have a fav? Doesn't seem like a $200 instrument should be required for the task.

The shop said the heads cc'd at 65cc. That's smaller than what I've heard for these heads (L92), typically 68 or 70cc. If they are 65cc, and the pistons (4cc valve reliefs) are at zero deck, with a .051" compressed gasket (10.93cc), that's 11.3:1 CR - pretty high. 68cc brings it down to 10.9, 70cc to 10.75 (which is what he was thinking it would be). If the pistons are .010" down in the hole, 65cc, more like 11.0. With this cam, it should bleed off a little at low RPMs, but to survive that kind of CR on pump gas will take some careful tuning.

Oh, forgot to mention, the valve spring retainers are titanium.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Okay, as chronicled in another thread, I fussed about the main cap bolts for a bit (wasn't sure they were reuseable, which they appear to be, but went with ARP main studs anyway). Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

I couldn't find a tap of the correct size to chase the head bolt hole threads, so I took one of the used long head bolts and cut three channels in the threads with a cutoff wheel. I made sure the channels had a sharp edge in the tightening direction, and that they "augered" the cleaned off crud outward. After chasing them, I flushed them out with brake cleaner spray, then blew them out with a 1/8" brake line tube attached to my air blow gun so I could blow them out from the bottom of the hole outward, then repeated as necessary to get them completely clean. For some reason the outside rows of bolts were really crudded up on both sides. One of those tedious, time consuming tasks that you really have to do for a proper build.

A new task for me - never had reason for concern with the mild builds I've done in the past.







Cloyes double roller set, Erson cam, Manley crank all seem to be playing well together.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Oh, updates on a couple of other things previously mentioned:

The pistons are at zero to the deck. So, CR will be around 11.3:1. DCR about 8.15. It should be doable with good tuning.

My son had the 6.0 crank checked over and balanced. The journals were polished, will use standard size bearings. Not too shabby for 147k miles, if you ask me. Oh, the crank guy also said the oil residue was hard to clean off...

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Manley has me confused with the information they sent with the rods. They put in ARP rod bolts, and included a chart for tightening. They say to use 30 weight oil, not moly lube (like ARP includes with their bolts & studs), or engine lube (by that I assume they mean assembly lube). The bolts with the rods are 3/8" 8740, and for that they say stretch should be .0047 - .0052", then in the next column it gives a "recommended" torque with 30W oil of 50-60 ft-lbs. Well, with 60 ft-lbs, I'm only getting .003" stretch. And, there's a stern warning, "DO NOT OVER TORQUE!" I've also tried multiple torque cycles with a good cleaning and relube in between, didn't make a difference.

60 ft-lbs sounds like plenty, but I don't want this thing coming apart at 7000 RPMs.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Okay, I guess it helps to get the bolt size correct...

Here's a copy of the sheet that came with the rods.

http://www.manleyperformance.com/dl/tech/rod-hbeam.pdf

I measured the shank, not the threads. The shank is smaller than the threads.

Oh, well, live & learn. Not something I need to do a disassembly to correct.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I had the same issue with some of my rod bolts. At specified torque, I was still about .001" shy of the stretch spec. I went another 10ftlbs and was still shy. I called it good enough. Texas Speed agreed, and said that ny power & rpm range won't stress those bolts.

Lonnie P

Typically when measuring with a stretch gauge, you torque to stretch & note the torque. It is common to see over 70ft/lb to get the stretch correct.

I use moly paste as it requires less torque to get the proper stretch.

What you do is measure the bolt, then torque to the recommended torque.
Then bump the torque 2-3ft/lb & remeasure the stretch.
Keep increasing until it has the correct stretch.
After you do 2 or 3 bolts you will see where they want to be.
Then start at 5ft/lb less, measure stretch at each & tweak as necessary.

If one stretches with less torque than the others, it is a bad bolt.

Also you should torque the bolts three times before the final setting.
This burnishes the threads, removing any rough spots, giving a more uniform reading.
It also "flattens" the friction surface of the rod where the fastener touches.

I do 25, 45, 60. Then loosen & do over again.
Loosen & do again, this time measuring stretch & torquing to the required setting to get proper stretch.