lanceflame44

Hi all,
after having my car die on me the second time i have decided to get rid of the 305 and 4 speed setup and get a L33, right now i want to know what kind of tools i would need (its really cold right now and i cant work on the car but i want to start somewhere) and i want to start on a list of parts and prices, my budget is $5000 max. as my car sits right now, it needs alot of work, mostly the suspension though. my plan was to get this to start http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/products/Spohn-Tubular-K%252dMember-%7B47%7D-A%252dArms-%7B47%7D-Coil%252dOver-Package-%252d-LSX-Conversion-for-Stock-Style-Steering%2C-82%252d92-Camaro%7B47%7DFirebird.html
and then go from there, i know i would need to get an oil pan (4th gen ls1 pan) and a different belt setup (because of the alternator location). and a LS6 intake and fuel rails. i think i will just go on without AC. so i might need a delete bracket for that... i havent decided on the transmission, i want the t56 but the 4l60e would be an easier swap, right? and as far as suspension goes mine is really bad and lets just assume that every part that can be worn over time needs replacement. it was also recommended to me to get the differential on the car right now rebuilt, around how much is that? i also think i need to get either a 4th gen gas tank and pump or just a better gas pump. as for gauges i might just get some aftermarket ones and hook those up. i am probably missing alot but i just want to get a thread started so i can start getting stuff




as for tools, right now i just have basic stuff, socket set, 3 ton shop jack, a bunch of screw drivers, a set of wrenches, and a few sets of plyers. im pretty sure i would need an engine lift, is there anything else i would need?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Is the tubular K-member coming out of your $5k budget, or above and beyond the $5k?

The AC runs a dedicated belt, brackets, tensioner, so you don't need anything to delete it - just take it off.

F-body or Y-body accessories/damper will work. Just a matter of finding them.

Unless you're starting with a L69 car, or one that's had a dealer-installed anti-vapor lock kit, you won't have a pump in your tank. The main issue with using a 4th gen LS1 tank is the fuel gauge sending unit not being compatible with the factory 3rd gen fuel gauge.

What are you going to use for a transmission?

Put jack stands on your tools list. Drill, bits. Wire stripper, crimp tool, soldering iron/gun. If you drop the engine out the bottom (basically lifting the car away from the engine/trans/K-member), it works a little better if you have the rear wheels on ramps. Might also want a piano dolly to roll the engine/trans/K-member around.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

$5000 for suspension and swap or just swap ? Do you have engine buying is within the budget also ?

To get everything in car would run prob around 2500 depending on how much you do your self. you can cut costs here and there ,but keep in mind the little things add up like tools you don't have and things you have to pay some one to do , then the cost of engine and trans locally here t56 runs about 1400 to 2000+, 4l60e run about 300 to 800+ Then engines 300+ For 5.3s I've seen so you can quickly reach your budget of $5000

Is it doable idk hard to say ,but it will be a tight budget you won't have much left over for suspension stuff

I would suggest do some more research so you know exactly what's involved as it's a involved swap and initial cost is high but well worth the hours

lanceflame44

Alright, thanks for the help guys, and again, I'm in the plañning stages right now. I have ramps, jack stands a nice drill, drill bits (what would i be drilling?) And I have a soldering iron. I will put the wire stopper and crimping tool on my list, along with the piano dolly. I wanted the tubular k-member kit to be included inside the budget, the kit comes with a few front suspension components, so thats good. And with the tubular k-member and a-arms I will have less weight on the car. The aluminum block will help also, for now, let's assume that I'm getting the 4l60e, and that and the engine are for around $500 each, soo thats $1000 knocked off the budget right now. I'm pretty good when it comes to wires and wiring, I have installed audio systems in a few cars now, but I'm assuming this is going to be a lot harder. I have been doing a little research, I have the analog speedometer, the new setup will require digital speedometer, would I just be able to hook up a newer firebird gauge cluster? Or is it not that simple? And as of now, the suspension is fine, its not rotting or dying, but it was recommended to me to change it. I will have only $5000 to spend on this car, I just want to do as much as I can.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

With that budget I would skip the k member IMO can always upgrade later, third gens have weight advantage over 4th gen and 5th gen , you going to put a couple hours into the harness alone took me around 50 hours total into my harness and I'm colorblind at that lol it's easy just a lot more involved then hand full of wires for audio

To go digital you need dash harness and gauges

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...on-answer.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...questions.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...nal-thrid.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...third-gen.html

lanceflame44

what would i have to do to make the stock k-member work with the l33 engine? i just want to get this done once, and done right. i would like to drive this car by the end of the summer (starting work on the car in april) the budget can be extended another $1700-2000 depending on what my credit limit is. if you guys think that the stock k-member will work fine, i wont question it, but i think for me (first engine swap) the hawks k-member would be easier. another question about the 4l60e, i was reading that the l33 only came on extended cab 4x4 sierras and silverados, would that mean i would have to get the transmission and engine seperate or am i mis-informed? as for changing the intake, fuel rails and the oil pan, is it as simple as un-bolting the old components and just sticking the new ones on, or would i have to make modifications? and would i need an engine stand to do this? also, will the 4l60e fit the stock cross member, or would i have to get a cross member from hawks.. as for the accesory drive, where would i get that from? or would it just be eaiser to use the truck accesory drive and relocate the alternator? as for the fuel pump, is there an aftermarket one i can use? would an in-line fuel pump work? (just wondering what my options are for fuel pumps) and for the gauge cluster, i found a 1991 cluster off e-bay,(http://www.ebay.ca/itm/1991-firebird...ab7883&vxp=mtr) but it doesnt have wiring, would it be better if i just went and pulled the cluster and wiring out of a junk yard car? if at all possible, i would like to avoid buying a "parts car" just because i feel that a parts car would be an un-nessisary expense.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Posted links above should answer most your questions

cam-

Agree with above tubular K is a waste of coin on a budget swap not to mention there is some controversy over using them in DD cars, they arent the most stout things on the planet. T56 is a VERY privey luxury these days. Expect to be in the $3K+ range for a good problem free trans with a new clutch where you can use a 4L60 for around 500 bucks or less. Word to the wise when purchasing autos you dont want one that has been sitting for too long, it kills them. Look at the fluid make sure its clean and smells correct ( take a 1L jug of new Dex3/4 so you can compare )

Use Hawks/Spohn LS1 mounts for stock K and crossmember can be modified, built new or bought. Use exh manifolds for low buck and stock cam and wiring wise just find ANY 24x LS with the 4L60 harness and get that PCM and harness and TB and start from there, read the stickies on wiring and your sort it out. Easiest way to go and keep it low buck

Resuse stock third gen tank with a new Walboro pump and the C5 fuel filter and go.

stock driveshaft fits.

Read the sticky thoroughly its all in there.

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

Try not to get hung up on the L33 aspect of that 5.3, its the same in every way as any other 4.8/5.3 swap its just an aluminum block, i swapped an L33 into the last T/A i had, nice engine. Any 5.3 swap on here into a 3rd gen will have all the same basic criteria as yours.

lanceflame44

alright, did a little more reading and stumbled upon a aftermarket dash, would this work with the swap? i might even get the 4th gen gas tank and pump working with this dash http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...003r/overview/ I also understand that the truck manifolds dont fit, i am leaning towards getting the headers from hawks. i just dont want to redo anything later. http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/pr...Collector.html and would this walbro pump work? http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...19-2/overview/ and could i use my current cross member for the 4l60e? or do i have to get this? http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/pr...Automatic.html

so with the engine and trans at $1000
the engine lift at $100
the piano dolly at (lets say) $50
the engine stand at $100
the fuel pump at $150
the transmission mount at $110
the engine mounts at $90
the gauge cluster at $430
and the headers at $730
the intake at (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/FAST-146302-L...0df6c3&vxp=mtr) $900
and the fuel rails at (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/GM-CHEVY-BILL...2f6815&vxp=mtr) $90
the grand total soo far is: $3750 before shipping and taxes and other costs

lanceflame44

oh!! and the oil pan, lol (http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/pr...SX-New-GM.html) +180 sooo thats $3930 total

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Why you need that intake ??

Save your self some money get a ls1 for around 150 or a ls6 intake around 350 get stock fuel rails
you can cut cost by using the classifieds
I know it looks all pretty but get the engine in then do the upgrades later
that intake is a complete waste unless your building the engine with supporting mods
you should really set what your goal is and what you want aand make a list accordingly
you still missing some items and most of your budget is gone with the list you posted

The little stuff adds up

can save on the gauges also find a digital gauges and harness at junk yard

lanceflame44

i actually think im going to stick with the aftermarket gauges, but i will look on the classifieds (this site?) for parts, i initially wanted the ls6 intake but i couldnt find a good deal on ebay, and the one that is on kijiji is in ottowa (i live in hamilton) which is too far for me rn. and can you tell me what items i am missing?
Thanks for all the help soo far guys, we have a great community here

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Again read the links it has all the questions you need

try ls1tech not much lsx stuff on here

lanceflame44

yup, i am reading the threads in between classes. lol

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

No worry , thats the best thing to do , take your time , the money you save you can use to by go fast parts, for example a cam upgrade n tune used cams are easy to come by like a LS6 cam or a aftermarket one, ls6 and 5.3 put down 300ish depending on supporting mods not bad for ls6 cam

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...st_comparison/

http://m.performancetrucks.net/forum...0011&styleid=4

I got alot of good deals on LS1tech, and craigslist , also the junk yard for instance I found a LM7 and 4l60e for 600 for both if I had another car to swap it in or just room to store it I would of snag it up in a jiffy

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

You really need to do a lot more research before you start this swap. A lot of your questions are very basic in nature, and show an incomplete understanding of the swap that is going to lead to a lot of problems later on. The quickest way of burning through money is to start burning through buying parts *****-nilly without a clear understanding of how they go together and what other parts are going to be necessary to get them functioning properly.

No need for the Fast intake on this motor. Huge waste of money for your application. LS6 is what you want. LS1 will do just fine as a cheap way to get the motor running good. The intake is extremely easy to swap later on once the engine is in the car and running.

No need for $700 headers on a budget L33 swap either. Factory manifolds will work just fine. If you're set on headers, people have been having good luck with these for $259: http://www.racinginnovationandsupply...der_p_189.html.

The Oil Pan that you listed will not work. That is very clearly outlined in many of the LS Swap sticky info. You need a factory 4th gen F-body pan, the one that you listed is far too deep for 3rd Gen ground clearance. Guess what, the F-body setup is usually more expensive.

L33s in good shape with low miles are kind of hard to find. You might be better served with an iron block 5.3 that you can build on later as time and funds allow. Used heads, cams, etc for these engines can be had dirt cheap from people upgrading to bigger and better stuff.

You also haven't mentioned how you plan on dealing with the engine accessories. Truck units won't work. F-body stuff can be pricey, as are the aftermarket solutions.

Count on at least %50 over what you plan on initially spending to buy the items to complete the swap. Taxes, shipping, gaskets, fasteners, fluids, and other unforseen items will rapidly add to the cost of your build. If you're not factoring that in, and you're already talking about maxxing out your credit (also probably not a good idea), you're going to run into trouble later on.

Slow down, take a deep breath, and do some research. It'll save you a whole mess of heartache later on.

-cal30sniper

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

I agree

research , research, research

I research for about a year or so then started collecting parts to help reach the goals that I wanted from the engine and what im using the drivetrain for , which help me formulate a lost of parts I wanted even then I constantly research the parts I wanted and adjusted accordinly if It didn't fit my combo , but I still researching and read alot of articles

and take your time , a bad combination of parts will lead to disappointing results , and wasted money

Building a DD is different than a Race car

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

Yep. Working on my 6th or 7th year of research now for this swap. Just started pulling the trigger on parts.

Its amazing how much cheaper stuff have gotten and how many more swap parts are available these days. You can get LS3 power for what an LS1 used to cost. Prices will only continue to drop as the traditional LS motors and their Vortec siblings are phased out in favor of the new LT design.

lanceflame44

thanks for the advice guys, but i really dont want to let my car sit for another winter. this would be my first swap, i dont want to do a full on build on an engine, i plan to get the l33, if not, the lm7, and change the oil pan to an f-body one http://www.ebay.ca/itm/GENUINE-GM-98...295800&vxp=mtr
(+100ish) and an ls6 intake with fuel rails (-400, +100) and attach that to the 4l60e and get the adapter parts, and drop that in and wire it. i know its alot more complex than that, but i have to start somewhere, right?

lanceflame44

or i could just get a mild cowl hood and run the stock truck intake

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

Better start looking at engine accessories and brackets. You won't clear that truck alternator even with a cowl hood. Not certain on the truck intake, maybe so, maybe no. Probably would take quite a cowl to clear the throttle body.

Don't forget that you'll need an F-body tail housing for that 4L60e. The trucks have no provision for a torque arm mount.

You're also going to need a 4th gen throttle cable, lots of wiring and soldering supplies, good factory wiring diagrams, and a custom exhaust system to be built regardless of which manifolds or headers you go with.

When I do a build, I like to create an excel spreadsheet. I use a column for part name, a column for price, and a column for a link to the part. At the bottom of the column, you can use the =SUM(A:B) formula to get the total cost. Then you can try a few different stacks of parts to see what your cost is going to be for each combination. If you get persnickity, you can get real close to the installed cost. Factor in an extra 10% for shipping, fluids, and other parts store buys, and you'll get real close to the final build cost. I was within $60 on my $2k NV4500 trans swap last month.

Remember to factor in a safety factor if you're talking about stretching yourself this thin. Cars are in the junkyard for a reason, and it's not always a wreck.

-cal30sniper

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The f-body oil pan you linked doesn't have the required pickup or baffle. An alternative is the Holley "Retrofit" pan kit. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-302-1 Yes, it is pricey, but since you won't be buying that overpriced FAST intake...

For the record, you can use a truck pan in a 3rd gen swap. It'll just hang down VERY low.

A cowl would have to be pretty wide to clear a truck alternator. But, I have seen a member's 'Bird that had a hood that did clear. It would probably also clear a truck intake. I'm not a Birdman, or I could tell you what type of hood it was.

Since you aren't going with AC, you can use LS engine mount adapter plates and use the engine mounts from the 305.

lanceflame44

cant i just buy an alternator relocation bracket or does it not work like that? and i have looked around at hoods and im not much of a fan of the cowl style hood, i like the one mine has right now (power bulge) and five7kid mentioned using a piano dolly for the swap, would i just drop the engine (attached to the k-member) and trans onto the piano dolly and roll it out from under the car? then pull the engine off the k-member? im sorry, some of these questions must seem really basic to you guys, but im just trying to get a grasp on what i need to do, and i havent really looked at the car in a while, please dont make canada jokes about how we have alot of snow or anything, but i literally cant open the doors of my car in the cold, i dont even know why...

lanceflame44

i also found this transmission, its a rebuilt one for $350 from a 4th gen, i have to ask if it was behind the ls1 though. http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehi...AdIdZ553364804

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

After getting everything unhooked from the engine/trans, you lower the car down so the engine/trans are on the piano dolly, then you support the car weight (I used a cherry picker attached to the front frame), unbolt the K-member and tranny crossmember from the car, and lift the car off the engine/tranny. Then you roll them out from under the car.

I haven't seen an alternator relocation kit that moves it out of the way of everything, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

lanceflame44

thanks a bunch, i also contacted the guy for the transmissions, they were behind the v6, im pretty sure i cannot use them... i plan to buy the engine and trans by the end of February. then go from there

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

Check out Dirty Dingo for a fairly cheap way to mount your truck accessories in an F-body. His brackets will also allow you to keep the factory A/C from your thirdgen. Might be the best option if you're able to get ahold of a complete truck engine.

-cal30sniper

lanceflame44

ill check that out, thanks

lanceflame44

Hi
so soo far i have started to save up a little, and have gotten the headers from racing innovation for $430 total. and now im looking at other little parts i can buy right now. i just saw this auction on ebay for an oil pan, windage tray and pickup for the f-body ls1, is this what i would need? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/98-02-Camaro-...d74530&vxp=mtr

Thanks

jtaliaferro

iTrader: (1)

Yeah that's the pan you will need. I think it can be purchased new for not much more.



EDIT: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...ap-source.html

That's the link to the oil pan, you will still need windage tray and pickup tube. Probably 250 total.

jtaliaferro

iTrader: (1)

Also, you had better add a tuning solution to your budget, you will need to have vats deleted at a minimum.


EDIT: You will also need a water pump that will clear the TB using the LSx intake.

WTR388

accessories, assume $500.
Intake, just go cheapest with the LS1 intake.
Stock manifolds, probably find them for like $100. They work, they are cheap.
4th gen LS1 tank gives you a better tank, a pump, a regulator etc. Got mine for $100 I believe.
Mounts you're around $200 to cut and use the stock K-member.
Go to junk yards and pick parts... I have enough wiring with ECM connectors and a great little fuse box for $50... Aftermarket this stuff would have been a few hundred.

The little stuff adds up. I've been buying parts as I find deals and I'm going to spend over $5000 for a simple LS1/T56 swap where my only "luxury" items is a set of speed hut gauges, but that's only because it really simplifies the gauge wiring portion and they are all programmable.

lanceflame44

Hi everyone, sorry that i have not updated in a while, i was just waiting for some deals to pop up, and they did. i just bought the l33 engine and an LS6 intake. The engine was $1700, and it came with a cam, pushrods, new timing gears and chain, a water pump, and new spark plug wires. i did not get a wiring harness or computer with that but i believe i can just get one from the junkyard. i took some pictures of the parts this morning but i didnt get time to get some pics of the engine. the ls6 intake is on the way and should be here by monday. i bought that for $400. I have been looking at oil pans and found one with the windage tray and pickup for $300. i have been looking at transmissions and have found a few truck 4l60e's for around $300, and there is a torque arm relocation kit for another $300, so that is affordable right now. the budget for this build increased around $2000 because i am working a little extra, i will do a revised parts list later today. here are some of the parts i got:
comp cam


pushrods (box is a lil damaged)


truck fuel rails(also got the truck intake but i am getting the ls6 intake and fuel rails)

Timing chain and gears

"new" spark plug wires

350 amp alternator out of a hummer

LS series long tube swap headers


so far i have spent $1700 on the engine, $400 on the ls6 intake, $430 on the headers and $200 for the alternator, that puts my budget down $2730, which leaves me to work with $3270. as far as the alternator location goes, i was thinking about getting an electric power steering pump and placing the alternator where the power steering went, doing this would also free some hp.

lanceflame44

i just bought the 4l60e transmission for $300 and a 4th gen gas tank with the ls1 pump for $200. when it stops raining over here i am going to organize my garage and start pulling the car apart. im buying the wiring harness within the next few weeks but i dont really know which one i am supposed to get.. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/E171-LS1-LS2-...7646fd&vxp=mtr
im pretty sure that is the right one. but its kind of pricey, is there anywhere else i can find a harness?
Thanks