Linson

This look okay for C100 connector?

Linson

got my AC delete heater box from All American Classics in Vancouver, WA. they're right down the road from where i picked up my LS3. they have some cool **** there - and a lot of Third Gen stuff too. i recommend using them if you need an original part. i was tempted buy a camel colored '85 TA leather steering wheel for the TTA.

Linson

oh, yeah. speaking of which...

Linson

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Stout engine.

That's a lot of wires cut. I hope you had a purpose for each of those.

88Greg

Well, That's the hard way to do it........


Looks like your engine has a cable throttle body after all ? Is the ECU a '411 ?

Linson

Okay...I don't understand. What would have been the easy way?

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

That's what I was questioning before hand. Looks like a cable throttle body and '411. They must have used an early crank sensor (not x56) when putting it together. That is what I suspected - no DBW pedal. What you loose in up-to-date ECM's, you get back in aftermarket support. No big deal, Linson. The issue as I see it: if you didn't knowingly make this decision, then the downstream issues are now dictated to you. May not be a big deal, since most of aftermarket goes this way. When I'm paying, I like to control.
DBW has their own issues, too. I just like being informed, and make the knowledgeable decisions myself. Either way to go has their own plus and minus issues.
I retained DBW, used the stock LS2 E40 ECM. Since engine and trans controller are separate, I zip tied to original plastic tray and used stock location. This allowed me to mount the ALDL port in a natural and close location (near passenger left foot)- see pics. I like it there because you can't normally see it, but when told it's there, people/tuners can find it.

88Greg

That cut bundle of wires contains (among others), several thick red wires that tapped power from the starter battery lug. Those wires powered the whole dash, Lighting, fusebox etc. Also there is a thick purple wire that goes to the solenoid on the starter to engage it.
Its possible to separate the harness and keep those wires and terminal ends intact, Since they can attach to the LSx starter in the same way they attatched to the SBC starter.
Now you will have to come up with a separate power junction of some sort to feed those wires power to the C100. And you will still need that purple start solenoid wire to be long enough to reach the starter. Unless you come up with a different solution involving a relay or such. ?


There are several other smaller wires in there as well, some that go to the senders for your dash gauges too, Which you may be keeping ?


At least it looks like the wiper motor wiring escaped uncut.

Linson

Yes, it was a conscious decision about the throttle cable vs. drive-by-wire. Seemed like it would be simpler for a retrofit.

On this C100 connection/wire harness, I thought that I followed the instructions that I was given - to cut the harness, leaving about a foot of wire for splicing into. Not that any of you are under any obligation whatsoever, but if there was a more sensible approach, I would've liked to have heard it before the fact. I sold the L98 in its entirety (including wiring harness) and was obliged to take it with me to Vancouver where I picked up the LS3.

But still, after the fact, people are telling me that I done f-ed up. At this point, I just want to know what it is that I *should have* done.

Linson

And after I hit post, I see 88Greg has already answered. Thanks.

Linson

I may have misunderstood QwkTrip's instructions.

There is a separate, smaller harness that goes into the firewall (directly underneath the C100). I assumed that that was the gauges and lighting.

88Greg

There are many ways to do such a harness conversion. Some are simpler than others. Some guys want to use modern fuse/relay blocks mounted where they prefer. In those situations the stock power distribution wire length/routing may not work, And would need to be cut just like yours.
The method I suggest uses the stock wires as much as possible. But its just one way to do it.


You have to look at the C100 diagram for your specific year. Each half of the connector does different circuits, and they changed what went where almost every year. Some years have the wiper wiring in the engine half (the larger one) and some years have it in the lighting half (smaller one).


Yours being an 89 is similar to my '88, So the wiper wiring and dash gauge wiring is in the engine half. How many wires come out of the C100 connector ? Mine has 3-4 thick ones and 13 smaller ones, If I recall correct.

Linson

Okay. Thanks Greg. I think that is the approach that QwkTrip was talking about, which was also in line with my wishes, so I guess I kinda opted to do it the hard way. As long as it's not the "practically impossible way".

88Greg

Read this, Its a good start :


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...p-3rd-gen.html

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

That smaller separate one is to the headlights and blinkers.

There's more than one way to do this. That's why it can be so confusing. I put my fuse box where the battery was, moved the battery to the pass. side, and used very thick gauge wires - 2 positive and one negative.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Looks like they are using an LS1 style engine controller with your LS3. Basically you have a hybrid engine like I do. It is a Gen IV engine with some Gen III characteristics to create compatibility with the Gen III engine controller. What happened is your swap just got easier.

Personally, I'll take a cable throttle body any day. Instant throttle response and direct feedback to your foot.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I feel bad I might have contributed to a misunderstanding. Thought I was clear about it.

I have no idea all the circuits you just disabled. I would sit down with a C100 connector diagram and take inventory of what each wire is and if you need it. You're probably going to have to hook some of those back up just the way it was stock. A good number of those wires will be used for the LS swap so no harm done with those.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

When I did my swap I never did find a C100 diagram for my car but I at least did find this one for an '89. It was mostly okay but it wasn't the same as my car. It was enough for me to verify many of the circuits (physically checking on the car) and figuring out the remaining by process of elimination.

I spent a very, very, long time hunched over the engine bay checking and documenting circuits to figure out what and where I was tying in from the LS swap BEFORE I made a single cut. You'll notice I drew up a lot of diagrams on my computer for each topic matter I encountered. There was more purpose to it than just preparing documentation -- It made me slow down and really think about what I was doing. There were many times my ideas would change during the process.

Linson

Thanks to all for continuing to chime in. Unfortunately, whats done is done. Also, there is bound to be a silver lining here even if it means having to throw money at the problem. As Greg was saying, this should at least open the door for better customization (i hope) and I do happen to know a guy who is a professional at wiring cars and boats who would probably be willing to help me with this for less than "market value."

so, lets look at where I'm at:

I REALLY was under the impression (just by looking at the old harness) that everything I cut and sold off with the L98 was from the ECU to the L98 sensors and injectors, etc. I assumed that by cutting all the C100 wires, I would only have to splice certain ones to a power source (for interior lighting and instruments, etc.). in other words, it really looked to me as though everything that was removed was connected to the engine (via pigtail connector, for the most part) and not to the body. obviously, i was hasty in getting the wiring off the car because I had a buyer and a time frame. As nice as mine was, its actually a "tough sell" trying to get money for an L98 TPI.

so, now that i have everything on hand - the engine, the new harness/ECU, all the new parts (for the most part) except for a CAI, I can pump the brakes a little bit, because i dont have anyone waiting on me.

the first thing I want to do is thoroughly clean the engine bay.
THEN, get the wiring laid in before installing the engine and peripherals.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Sorry for the many posts, I'm putting in a little extra effort trying to help you recover from the problem.

It may not be that bad. Just need to take inventory of what has been cut. Obviously you will have to reconnect anything related to lighting, brake warning light, and whatever else is needed for function of your existing chassis wiring. I'll let you figure that out. But here is a run down of specific connections to C100 to support the LS swap using the C100 pinouts from my car (which were a little different from the C100 diagram below). Alter to adjust for your reality.

Necessary connections,

D6... WHT... small 16 ga. wire... Tachometer signal to the gage pod.

E5... PNK... small 16 ga. wire... Oil pressure signal to the gage pod.

F5... DK GRN... small 16 ga. wire... Temperature signal to the gage pod.

Note: Voltage gage runs off internal wiring from the fuse box. It does not need any connections from the LS swap harness.


Optional connections depending how you choose to do things,

G4... TAN / WHT... 14 ga. wire if I remember right... Fuel pump B+ power. Runs all the way back to the fuel pump. Unfortunately, not large enough wire for your new fuel pump. The wire runs down the sill plate next to the driver seat so I repurposed the wire and ran it to my center console. I can use it in the future if I ever add a switch to the dash that needs to connect to something in the engine bay.

F4... PNK / WHT... larger 12 ga. wire... Switched power with key ON and CRANK positions. (no power in the key OFF position) This was the original wire that powered the ignition coil. I repurposed it to switch on the main power relay in my underhood power center that I added.

B5... DRK BLU... small 16 ga. wire... Backup lights for manual transmission. This is the power source (fuse box) for the reverse lights. I think you have auto transmission so your C100 might not be populated this way. Extra wires that pass thru the firewall are hard to come by so keep track of extras because you might use them some day.

C4... LT GRN... small 16 ga. wire... Backup lights for manual transmission. This is the return from the reverse switch in the transmission. Goes all the way back to the tail lights.

D4... YEL.... small 16 ga. wire... Speed sensor "Low" side signal. As far as I can tell this is for the lowly Camaro and not used on your car. Treat it as a free pass-thru with wiring already laid to the passenger side dash and use it any way you want. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...ml#post5827481

E4... PPL... small 16 ga. wire... Speed sensor "High" side signal. Pair with the D4 Low side signal.

88Greg

BTW, The guy you sold the engine/Harness to may want that flat 5 pin connector thats near the C100. Thats the ESC module (knock sensor) for the engine ECU. Fits that module from your earlier pic of the relays near the firewall. Depending on if hes running the ECU in a stockish config.He probably may want those relays/connectors (MAF) too !

Linson

well...can i AT LEAST get rid of this ugly thing???
somebody tell me i'm not supposed to retain this thing, or else I may have to abandon this whole project...

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I believe that's the vacuum assist cruise control. I think you'll need it with the cable throttle body.
I removed mine with the DBW.

You're a long way from abandonment, but we all have had the frustration you are experiencing. Enjoy the process, seriously. Overcome all the obstacles, and it will mean so much more to you.

Linson

Thanks, man. I appreciate that. And sometimes you (I/we) need to hear exactly that.

I don't believe that I've used cruise control once since I've had this car, nor do I know if the cruise control even works - so if that's it's only function, it will probably be gone. I've always disliked that actuator, along with some of the other "clutter" under our hoods.

I've ditched the AC and gotten an AC delete heater box. Plus I have designs on ditching the washer fluid and overflow tanks for smaller, much stealthier pieces. Not "stripping" the car like a purpose-built race car, but "streamlined" like a proper Formula shall be a recurring theme.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Wassup?
Where is your progress at?

Linson

Hey, TED, thanks for asking.
Between work and home, its been very hard finding time to get in the shop - especially now that my wife has started working. she works in the day - I work in the evenings. so by the time i am done sleeping, cooking, and cleaning, it usually only leaves like an hour before i have to start getting ready for work myself - not enough time to really even get anything started. Not really sure what the upside of her working is. Its not like she's helping out with bills, much less thinking about getting on board with my car projects...

Good news on the wiring harness snafu.
My buddy, Joe, installs electrical systems in multi-million dollar yachts and vessels for a living. He's done several hotrods in the area and is on board with doing the wiring on the Formula. He is even able to provide most, if not all the materials, which are premium (for use on multi-million dollar marine applications). all indications are that for him, this job should be child's play. i think he can start maybe in another week or two.

Had a chance yesterday (for the first time in a long time) to take some things apart for some beautification, and color coordinating. Though the long block is new, a lot of the peripherals, like valve covers are sourced from used vehicles.


body color on the AC delete heater box and blower motor to make them even less conspicuous.


the ECM, which is used, had that kinda salty/crusty look to it, so something needed to be done. not exactly sure where its going to go, or if it will even be visible in the end.


so, the engine is going to be flat black, with sating black valve covers, and satin black accessories. going body color with this easily removable shroud, and body color on the coil pack mounting plates. the coils themselves will be black.


the actual intake under the shroud.


my poor '67 is about at its capacity as a parts bench.

ctd next post...

Linson

factory coil packs. were kinda faded and scratched.


in order to paint the heads on the valve cover bolts.


casting on the heads.


not sure if i'm thrilled with the way these came out. just too many imperfections in on them. definitely don't want to media blast them - speaking of which, *see next post...

Linson

*speaking of media blasting. makes old parts like new - great for paint prep. i made the mistake of media blasting (glass bead) the LS1 oil pan. no, i didn't shoot media into the pan, but did the outside of the pan in an enclosure. cleaned it, but had a bad feeling, so i then pressure washed it. still wasn't quite satisfied so i ordered a new (i think, Chevy Performance) oil pan from Summit. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12628771

I was prepared for the "rough casting" on the exterior. I was surprised to see that it was even rougher on the inside. I had more misgivings when i found easily removable burs in the passage to the filter. Once I held it upside down and blew on it to get some of the cardboard dust out of it, and ended up with a nice metal shaving in my mouth, i felt better about my factory LS1 pan than this new one. so i cleaned the old pan again, and am confident that it wont be introducing any foreign material into the engine. The pan from Summit is going back. it was really sloppy looking anyway.

here are some pics of the pan that i ordered.


outside.


inside.

Linson

oh, and Joe is gonna charge me like $25 an hour, plus beer/liquor.

88Greg

Yah, The molds they use for the high pressure diecast aluminum crack with use and make the castings look like that. Looks like they must have made a few thousand more F body oil pans than actual F body cars LoL.
Are you going to notch your crossmember ? You could have got a holley 302-2 pan that should go in with no notching.


Did you paint the pan baffle too ??

Linson

No, that, I had powder coated. Overkill for sure, but it being practically the one part of the oil pan that's susceptible to rust, I thought I'd go ahead and eliminate that possibility.

Linson

Didn't know I needed to. I thought that the notching of the crossmember was strictly due to AC compressors, which I am not using.

WTF!!?

Linson

Guys with LS swaps and autos,
how did you manage your transmission cable(s)?
I still have the 700R4 shifter cable hanging off the bottom of the car. it appears exactly the same as the 4L60E cable on the 4th gen car.

And as far as the "kick-down cable" how did you guys manage that? There doesn't seem to be any provision for it on my LS's Throttle body.

vv is this thing (off the 4th Gen) supposed to come into play? vv

88Greg

I think that's the traction control "throttle cable relaxer" off the 4th gen. Prob don't need it for your swap. What transmission you using ? There is no provision for the 700R4 TV cable on the LS throttle bodies, stock. Since all LS came with electronic trans.


RE the crossmember notching, Some swaps using the stock F body pan need to have the rear part of the xmember relieved to clear the front of the sump on that pan. It really depends on what motor mounts you are using and where they make the engine sit fore-aft.

Linson

good info on all fronts, Greg.
I'm running a 4L60E and retaining the electronic features.

Im running the stock 4th gen F-Body mounts, but with the adapters for the Hooker LS swap long tube headers, which, if I'm not mistaken, move the engine back a little bit. if not, i could go either way - notch the crossmember, spring for a new, tubular type crossmember, or spring for the Holley 302-2 pan.

Linson

and so, as far as the Three Cables go, it sounds like it'll be as follows:
- Throttle cable (stock 4th gen cable) from throttle body to gas pedal.
- Transmission "kick-down cable" eliminated by "electronic" feature of 4L60E.
- Cruise control cable eliminated by my desire to ditch the ugly-looking 3rd gen actuator, thus ditching cruise control altogether.

sound right?

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Sounds right.
I would advise the k-member slot. Cut and re-box in. It made all the difference going in and space is tight w/out.
Please retain the trans lever bracket. Your Hookers aren't that big, so clearance may not be a problem (as far as altering the bracket). Look around on Shiftworks website.
I worked with Herb to get a replacement cable into production. It's a good time to replace the shift cable--> https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ml#post5790876

Linson

Thanks, TED.

Linson

re-did the valve covers. the semi-gloss and high gloss contrast just fine, but it is the flat black that makes that light metallic blue really pop.

Linson

the good news is I've been off work for four days.
the bad news is I've been too sick to leave the house.

had a few little odds and ends off the motor disassembled and painted for days now. finally yesterday decided to drag my *** out to the shop and put it together.




looks like it'll be sexy.
also looks like I'm gonna have to get 90* booted wires for these angled plugs.
sadly, two steps forward and one step back would be a much better pace than this half a step forward, wait a week, 'nother quarter step forward crap.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Pretty choice of colors

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Factory plug wires will work just fine.

Linson

except i don't have any, so it looks like 90 degree boots will give a more precise fit.

Linson

Ordered new starter, power steering pump/reservoir, power steering pulley (Turn One), MAF housing (4", Hawks), MAF screen, plug wires...

and a fiberglass AC delete heater box (Hawks). The factory one I bough aint gonna work. '89-92 uses a different blower motor that is taller and has different connectors.

Gonna work on getting all the accessories on, the flex plate on, and the motor mounts in place. Oh, and the throttle cable off the 4th gen. After that, I'll be just about out of moves until my wiring guy gets back from Florida (he says maybe next week).

Parts I still need are coolant overflow tank (small, aluminum type, probably that attaches to the radiator), and a CAI solution - will try to make one using 4" aluminum exhaust pipe.

unfortunately, spent all day today tracking down and ordering parts...and have to work tomorrow.

Linson

Still waiting on the stuff from Hawks. Got most of everything else that was ordered.


Have the accessories on. I went onto LS1TECH to research what size serpentine belt I would need to run AC delete. All commentary there seems to indicate that it is necessary to install some sort of AC Delete Pulley in order to be able to physically route the belt. Depicted is the stock belt off the LS1 donor - it seems to fit fine.

Whats been said about needing an idler pulley didn't make sense to me but I will allow that I'm often wrong.

Is there any reason that what I am running will not work? Am I missing something?





Also, it does not appear that the stock 4th Gen F-body power steering pressure line will fit properly (does not seem to more or less route itself from the PS reservoir to the steering box). How did you guys overcome this? Can I get a part number to the pressure line that I need?

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

AC compressor has it's own belt and pulleys. AC delete is just a matter of not using the AC belt. The main belt is unaffected by that.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Did you use a new crank bolt?

Linson

I did not install the harmonic balancer. It was installed by the engine builder.

Why?

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

That Turn One pulley looks good!
I'll look tomorrow to see what line I used.