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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
As long as it isn't as massive as the stock unit. Once it is out of the car, its impossible to get it back in place with the fuse box oriented correctly. If anything, if you were to clean up all the GM "taped junctions" it would thin it out tremendously. As for gages, I think it would be cool if you made an adapter to the OEM socket style connections. I spliced all my aftermarket gages into that harness and although everything works, I somehow wired the half the gage lights to key on and not key on run. So if the car is running, half work. If the car is off, they all come on. Ha. Also, IMHO the circuits for rear defrost, cig lighter, and the cabin light need to be made about a foot longer. If the harness doesn't go back in exactly like it did in Norwood/Van Nuys, that portion is stretched to the max. I actually bought a second harness to steal from, to complete the one I made.
The Original IPBEC and much of the original Harness is just a different animal.
The more Modern Wiring (whether TXL or ETFE) is just so mush more manageable...
It is smaller, lighter and way more flexible!
I appreciate the Notes on extending those Sections, as I recall how much of a Headache routing the OEM Harness is.
The Connection for the Cigarette Lighter never quite reaches far enough, I know!
The Fuse Panel, the Convenience Center, and the C238 Buss Bars have all been combined into one IPBEC.
Powered Accessories (and the Neutral Safety Circuit) will all have Relays now.
By comparison the New Power Window Wiring looks like it started doing Crack!
But there will be a TXL version done in a Tech-Flex Sleeving that will be a Quarter of the price of the ETFE, Raychem, Booted version that I will also offer.
Last edited by vorteciroc; Jan 22, 2023 at 03:24 PM.
The under dash harness is one of my biggest concerns about getting it right with my restoration, this would make me very happy (esp since a previous owner hacked my OEM one up to put in an aftermarket alarm, ugh).
Radio - would like to retain stock connections since I think most of us are doing piggy back harnesses with aftermarket radios
Any thoughts about cruise? Even if it was just leads with common connectors since LS PCMs handle it differently?
Most of what I usually design is done to a Motorsports Grade/ Standard...
Since most of the Members here have no need for something like that, I am going to Halt my current progress.
I am going to start over with TXL Wire and build the Harnesses to a OEM/ OEM+ Standard with a Modern Sealed IPBEC (using Relays).
It will make things much more affordable, and hopefully be of a much more significant benefit to our Community.
I am looking for some input from you guys.
Please everyone with an opinion please share!
I want to hear thoughts on the C208 Connector.
The issue is that the Pinout and use of some Circuits change from Model Year to Year.
Many cars eliminate C208 and replace the Tail lights Circuits Connection with new C206 Connector at the B-Pillar (Not A-Pillar).
I can not include all the differences from all Cars.
The Wires/ Circuits that need to be kept are for the Tail Lights.
Should I make a C208 or a C206 for the Tail Lights?
Some cars have (C208):
-Day-Night Rear-View Mirror Circuit.
-Power Hatch release.
-Power up and down Hatch Latch.
-Rear Wiper.
-Low pressure Fuel Pump.
AND MORE!
Maybe I should make a Power Accessory Junction Board off of the Fuse Panel...
You guys would have to connect your Cars own Accessories (with Pigtails that I would include).
...Or an easier method would be Distribution Studs.
Some Studs could be tied to particular Fuses...
1 for Batt, 1 for Ignition, 1 for an Illumination Circuit, 1 for Door-Jam Switches, Etc.
There will be no C207 Connector as it primarily pertains to Circuits for the OEM ECM.
Holley EFI or LS PCMs will be used.
I guess at this point, if you offered pigtails and/or an adapter harness for the different style of harnesses, then you would be set.
I mean honestly, how much more work would it be to do a full chassis harness at this point? The rear portion could be pretty straight forward. Add in a Fuel pump relay with a hot wire kit. Perhaps headlight relays and what not.
I mean if someone is this far into the car, they might was well just finish rewiring it. I look at my 82 Berlinetta that i bought with the swap done to it. Everything works, but just not great. I have cleaned up some things, but lost the fuel gauge in the process. I need to go through the wiring and just start over. It would be nice to upgrade while it is apart. Sadly that is all cost and time dependent and per the usual, I never have enough of both.
I guess at this point, if you offered pigtails and/or an adapter harness for the different style of harnesses, then you would be set.
I mean honestly, how much more work would it be to do a full chassis harness at this point? The rear portion could be pretty straight forward. Add in a Fuel pump relay with a hot wire kit. Perhaps headlight relays and what not.
I mean if someone is this far into the car, they might was well just finish rewiring it. I look at my 82 Berlinetta that i bought with the swap done to it. Everything works, but just not great. I have cleaned up some things, but lost the fuel gauge in the process. I need to go through the wiring and just start over. It would be nice to upgrade while it is apart. Sadly that is all cost and time dependent and per the usual, I never have enough of both.
Thank you for that.
I wish I had the time to just make a different Interior/ Dash Harness for every Model Year...
There are just soo many differences in the Wiring.
Firebirds are crazy with differences compared to Camaros (and the Camaros are bad enough).
I have Relays for EVERYTHING that should have had them... plus many new Circuits that need them.
I use Modular Sealed Power Distribution Centers that are customizable from GEP:
I already have Engine Harnesses available (with a sealed fuse relay center), as well as Front and Rear Exterior Light Harnesses (that upgrade to HIDs and LEDs).
I make a small Panel with 1/4" Hardwar/ Studs that looks very similar to this:
I wish I had the time to just make a different Interior/ Dash Harness for every Model Year...
There are just soo many differences in the Wiring.
Firebirds are crazy with differences compared to Camaros (and the Camaros are bad enough).
I have Relays for EVERYTHING that should have had them... plus many new Circuits that need them.
I use Modular Sealed Power Distribution Centers that are customizable from GEP:
That would be the big hiccup, but again, if you were able to offer the whole harness, that would help minimize the changes from year to year. I can see the camaro just needing an early and late style, sans the digital dash cars. The firebirds had a few more dash options then even I am aware of.
It would be fun, but doing a whole harness from front to back it would simplify a lot of LS swaps and really update the cars
Did different cars use same connectors with different pinouts, or different connectors altogether?
If it's same kind of connector but just a matter of a few wires being different pinouts, then maybe have those wires in the harness and terminated, but leave hanging loose at connector so that buyers can place them in correct connector pin locations for their car, assuming you are able to provide instructions with a chart. I would ignore the digital dash cars first round (and maybe forever LOL!).
I don't know, maybe it's far more complicated than that.
There are instances where the same Connector is used but the Pin-Out is different.
There are instances where the same Pin-Out is used but the Connector is different.
There are instances where the same Connector is used, the same Pin-Out is used but the Connector Location is different.
And several other permutations of the 3 variables.
I need to decide if I will wire the Holley EFI PCM to be Outside (under the hood) or Inside (behind the Dash/ Hush Panel).
The Dominator PCM really does not fit well in the Dash... But the HP PCM does fit with no problems.
In a Race Car...
I often mount an Electrical Panel to the Toe-Board on the Passenger-Side.
The IPBEC and PCM can go on the Panel:
Where have you guys been installing Holley EFI PCMs?
Also where have you been installing your Fuse/ Relay Panels (UBEC or IPBEC)?
That's sexier than socks on a rooster! I put my fan relays on the inside of the bumper on the rad support. Hides nicely. All other relays are tucked under the dash on the passenger side.
That's sexier than socks on a rooster! I put my fan relays on the inside of the bumper on the rad support. Hides nicely. All other relays are tucked under the dash on the passenger side.
I would love to just use a big Electrical Panel in every Car...
But they do not fit in street Cars that have a Occupant in the Passenger Seat.
I am looking for some input from you guys.
Please everyone with an opinion please share!
I want to hear thoughts on the C208 Connector.
The issue is that the Pinout and use of some Circuits change from Model Year to Year.
Many cars eliminate C208 and replace the Tail lights Circuits Connection with new C206 Connector at the B-Pillar (Not A-Pillar).
I can not include all the differences from all Cars.
The Wires/ Circuits that need to be kept are for the Tail Lights.
Should I make a C208 or a C206 for the Tail Lights?
Some cars have (C208):
-Day-Night Rear-View Mirror Circuit.
-Power Hatch release.
-Power up and down Hatch Latch.
-Rear Wiper.
-Low pressure Fuel Pump.
AND MORE!
Maybe I should make a Power Accessory Junction Board off of the Fuse Panel...
You guys would have to connect your Cars own Accessories (with Pigtails that I would include).
...Or an easier method would be Distribution Studs.
Some Studs could be tied to particular Fuses...
1 for Batt, 1 for Ignition, 1 for an Illumination Circuit, 1 for Door-Jam Switches, Etc.
There will be no C207 Connector as it primarily pertains to Circuits for the OEM ECM.
Holley EFI or LS PCMs will be used.
It sounds like you are doing a classic update chassis harness, but tailoring it for 3rd gens like painless/AAW do. Nothing wrong with that
I toyed with the idea years ago, but did not pursue the endeavor for lack of interest, lack of connectors and general lack of motivation on my part
The best I came up with was to design the system to be semi-modular
Chassis/lights etc can be standard for all 82-92
Common elements like PW, PL, hatch release etc standard
Oddballs, one off and unique stuff like performance sound systems, DRL, factory cruise etc nix completely
Engine/trans controls need to be interchangeable. Non-CC carb, aftermarket EFI, and DIY interfaces
When you look at it broadly, things like C208 or other specific stuff down in the weeds are inconsequential as they only apply to the factory harnesses. Nix it and put whatever inline you want. Modern metripack, GT, Deustch etc. You'll still need the end connectors like wiper, misc console, lights etc. You may have luck striking a deal with the above companies to buy these (ex cluster connector/terminals I could never find). Otherwise, terminate the ends and require the end user to recycle the original connectors
My 2 cents
I am also looking for Original Dash Harness Donations to further prototyping.
The only New Components that I have been able to purchase are Terminals, a 12-Way Version, and an 18-Way Version...
No 14 Way for Camaros... so I clean up used Connectors.
Does Painless or American Auto wire produce a Dash Harness for 3rd-Gens?
I could not find one...
Does Painless or American Auto wire produce a Dash Harness for 3rd-Gens?
I could not find one...
Not to my knowledge. I meant it as a reference to other classic updates for other cars. How dated parts/methods are replaced with modern. How old diagrams are year specific or very narrow ranges become large groups often covering the entire body style
Not to my knowledge. I meant it as a reference to other classic updates for other cars. How dated parts/methods are replaced with modern. How old diagrams are year specific or very narrow ranges become large groups often covering the entire body style
Got it, Thank you!
I offer Engine compartment LSx Swap Harnesses with modern sealed UBEC (Fuse/ Relay, PDM Panel) already...
IT is offered with the original C100 Connector or a modern Sealed replacement.
So all of this, is simply the next step to have the Cabin side of the Fire-Wall/ C100 Connector.
Of course with a Modern sealed IPBEC (Fuse/ Relay, PDM Panel...
Our Cars are really lacking in Relays compared to modern wiring practices.
Trying to incorporate wiring that will be more "Universal" for Model Years that have many differences...
Has been very difficult thus far.
...So I am just looking for Opinions and Ideas to move forwards.
Thank you for Posting,all input at this stage is of value to me.
Coming from the other thread.......
Not going the LS route with my 91....not yet at least , would a window power harness be a stand alone or intergraded with the larger LS harness? I scanned through this post, apologies if I missed it being said.
On the Right side of the Image below, is the new Sealed IPBEC Fuse and Relay Center:
On the Left side of the Image above, is one of my Sealed Fuse and Relay Centers for a stand alone HID Headlamp System.
I just added it to the Image so that some Relays and Fuses could be seen for size comparison to the New Sealed IPBEC.
Everything from a proper Starter Motor Relay Circuit, to Relays for the Power Windows and Power Locks will be included.
This IPBEC uses the ISO 280 Standard Foot-Print (Delphi Metri-Pack 280 Series)...
Both the Hazard Flasher and Signal Flasher will be placed in the IPBEC via ISO 280 versions of the Flasher Modules.
Last edited by vorteciroc; Mar 19, 2023 at 01:57 AM.
Similar to a Mega-Fuse:
A High Amperage In-Line fuse will be used for the Power Cable to the IPBEC.
Instead a more compact MIDI Fuse will be used in a Sealed Enclosure.
80A MIDI Fuse next to 80A Mega Fuse for size comparison:
The Image below shows the IPBEC with the Cover installed...
and to the Right of the Image, is the Sealed MIDI Fuse Enclosure:
The Delphi Sealed "Add A Splice" System will be used to add additional Circuits, as well as create branch-points for Circuits that are heavily shared.
One example would be the Illumination Circuit for the Instrument Panel, Radio, HVAC,Etc (Grey Wires in the Interior):
Coming from the other thread.......
Not going the LS route with my 91....not yet at least , would a window power harness be a stand alone or intergraded with the larger LS harness? I scanned through this post, apologies if I missed it being said.
Sorry, I missed this.
Power Windows will be one of the several add-on sub-harnesses for power accessories.
No worries
Is there an expected time frame this would be available, have you determined pricing?
Pricing... No not yet.
This was originally a Motorsports Grade/ Mil-Spec Wiring Harness/ System...
Priced around $8,500.
I have halted that Version of this Wiring Harness...
And switched over to building essentially the highest quality (Construction-Design and Parts/ Materials) that is below a Motorsports Grade/ Mil-Spec Wiring Harness.
I am still waiting on several hard to find Connectors, that I will have to recondition from Original Third-Gen Camaro Dash Harnesses. HOWEVER, I have a BIG PROBLEM... that no one who sells them has responded to E-Mail or Phone Calls.
I tried @John in RI and he has been a Ghost after an initial E-Mail.
I need help from the Members here... and I have found NONE!
Pricing will vary.
There will be the Bulk of the Wiring Harness.
Then there will be "Add ON" Sub-Harnesses for the different Power Accessories that these Cars came with.
So I am still figuring it out.
I really really need Help from the Members here... to find me some Dash Harnesses (to salvage and Map out the OEM Harnesses).
HELP PLEASE GUYS!!!
Last edited by vorteciroc; Mar 29, 2023 at 10:47 PM.
When I usually Design/ Assemble a Harness, I use a Splice-Pack Connector (shown in Image below) that the End User can add additional Wires to:
This way adding Circuits, Devices, or Components is very easy to do (and the existing Wiring does not need to be modified.
How important would have these Splice Pack Connectors be...
Vs just having a tradition Splice Terminal joining all the Wires (adding anything would require cutting and re-splicing)?
Also, converting all of the Interior Switches (Ignition Switch, Headlamp Switch, Highbeam Switch, Foglamp Switch, Defroster Switch, Locks, Windows, ETC) will require about 20+ Relays, and then all the Fuses...
It looks like I am going to have some of those Relays and Fuses inside the Cabin (IPBEC)...
And then I will have to route some Wiring through the C100 Connector, and have some Relays and Fuses under the Hood (UBEC).
No worries
Is there an expected time frame this would be available, have you determined pricing?
Pricing is going to start around $500 for the Core of the Harness/ Wiring System...
Then there will be many different Add-On Sub-Harnesses for the various Power-Accessories that our Cars had...
As well as some that our Cars did not have.
Honestly, this Harness modernizes/ Updates the Interior/Dash Wiring System into the Modern Era.
I am getting rid of all the High Amperage/ Load Carrying Circuits...
Like the Ignition Switch, Headlamp Switch, Neutral-Safety/ Starter-Motor Switches...
Implementing Relays EVERYWHERE, and I mean EVERYWHERE!
All the 10AWG and 12AWG Wiring in the Dash is becoming 22AWG (like for the Ignition Switch and Headlamp Switch) Wiring with Relays.
Power Distribution and Circuit Splice Design will be as Modern as can be (unfortunately doing so is NOT Cheap).
I am switching to TE Deutsch DT Series BUSS-Connectors, instead of the Delphi Type that I previously Posted.
There are just waaaaaay too many options for cool Splice and Buss Connectors in the Deutsch DT Connector System (shown below):
No need to see these ever again (Image Below):
Last edited by vorteciroc; Mar 27, 2023 at 07:16 PM.
For any of you guys who are into GM/ Delphi Connectors/ Wiring:
Who can Identify the very First Circuit that I start the Dash/ Interior Wiring Harnesses with...
Based on the Two Connectors in the Images, and the Two Terminals?
i agree. clear connector looks to be a steering column related piece. black one could be for steering column or possibly the connector at the DS footwell that connects to the tail light / fuel gauge harness for the back of the car.
The image with clear connection I believe is ignition switch on the bottom of the steering column. The bottom right is definitely headlight switch. Took me forever to integrate a different style for my dash.
The image with clear connection I believe is ignition switch on the bottom of the steering column. The bottom right is definitely headlight switch. Took me forever to integrate a different style for my dash.
Yes the Clear Connector in the Image below is for the Ignition-Switch.
(The Black Connector is also of course):
Now going back to the Earlier Images...
One Connector is the Ignition-Switch Connector that has the Terminal for the "Crank" Position...
What is the other Connector in the Image?:
, would a window power harness be a stand alone or intergraded with the larger LS harness? I scanned through this post, apologies if I missed it being said.
