Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Hello Thirdgen,

My plans have changed, and I feel like I'm about to dig pretty far into this car, therefore I started a new build thread. I decided to keep the 91z and build it to exactly what I want, so I've been busy the past few weeks. So here is the goal. I wan't a Third Generation Camaro that is up to par, and if not better than today's modern car standards. Standards in terms of performance (handling and power), comfort, reliability, looks, and accessories. So this car will outrun a 5th gen camaro, while being almost as comfortable as an M5 bmw while doing so. Lol, it's easy to make 'em go fast, the comfort is going to be the difficult part.

Even though the car will be daily driven, I do plan on Auto-crossing regularly. Ontop of AutoX I will be making a few passes at the strip along with taking it down to Road Atlanta for road course a couple of times a year.


Here is a quick recap of what I have done in the past 2 years, up to today.

Before mostly original


Since then it has had:
-Complete paint detail. (Buff/Polish/Wax)
-Some new interior parts
-Great audio system with Navigation, Bluetooth, etc
-TSW Wheels
-Jegs Subframe Connectors
-Struts/Shocks/Springs
-Bushings/tie rods etc
-3" Magnaflow Cat Back
-Window Tint
-A good bit more that I haven't listed
Some progress pics of the double din


Moved the HVAC controls over to the right side.


SFC's


Some Susp. Work



Current Pics

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Now onto the good stuff. I bought a 85k mile LS1/T56 yesterday. The plan is to tear it all down and rebuild the motor myself. I will be installing a good heads/cam combo with the rebuild. My goal is 440+ RWHP.








Some cars that have/will inspire my build. I want my car to give the vibe these cars have. Bad A, Nice, clean, race orientated, and modern.










Hopefully I will be done by June 2014. I will be updating regularly, and bombing you guys with questions regularly!

86_irocz-28

comfort id go with a 4th gen ac system thats what im working on, 4th gen seats are always a huge improvement over the stock obviously the ls1 will be a great platform for power without compromising gas mileage. If you havent check out my thread in the sig ive done many comfort things or amenities as some would call it, either way your car looks like a great platform interested in seeing what will come of this build.

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Upgrading the AC system is high on my list for comfort. My current AC system is decent, but sometimes the heat doesn't work well at all. As of now I'm not too educated with AC systems, so I will look into the 4thgen setup.

As for interior, I am ordering some nice leather suspension racing seats for the front and 4th gen rear seats. I will have the rears reupholstered to match the front. The racing seats I'm looking at are actually much more comfortable than the 4th gens. They have memory foam, adj lumbar and a heated cushion/back option.

86_irocz-28

For me the ac upgrade will be simple since im using an entire interior and wiring harness from headlights to taillights and everything in between so everything will match up and plug right in I will have to cut a little of the firewall to make it fit but not a huge problem

rwstegne

How do you like the jegs subframe connectors? How do they look from the side and fit? Interested in getting a set for my 89. Got pictures?

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

Lookin good man. Did you source the engine local? If so PM me details!

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

I love the Jegs SFC's. I ordered them on a monday, and they arrived only 2 days later. The driver side install was quick and easy. The passenger side was a little tough. This was because the SFC had to be angled perfectly to dodge the Y Pipe and Cat Converter. If I had a lift, or a really nice jack to get the car higher in the air, the passenger side would have went right in. Once both sides are in, it looks like it could have been stock. They fit right inside the lip on the rocker panel. If looking at them from the side, they might sit 1/8" lower then the lip. Which is nice. I''ll get some pictures the next time it is on a lift. Which should be soon.

As for handling, it made a huge difference. It's almost like a different car.

Thanks grngryoutmyway. I bought it up in Tennessee. Some guy bought it for his miata, then work got slow so the miata project was sold. He never even took the ls1/t56 off the pallet as all the shipping straps were still in place and strapped to the drivetrain.

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

Ahh yea I think I saw that ad on CL. Good job dude.

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

I've been busy cleaning up the engine some and finally got it on the engine stand. Sunday I am tearing it all down and seeing what I have. I will just replace the rings and gaskets if all looks good, if not I am going to stick to the original plan and rebuild the whole thing.

Motor stripped of coils/brackets, manifolds and wiring harness. Manifolds are for sale. PM me if anyone is interested.

83Z28/L69

Cool build. Love the car. But, IMHO, if you are going to re-ring it, you would be dumb not to go ahead and freshen the rest up with new bearings and such. Reusing bearings is just stupid and cheap.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

If the engine really only has 85k miles on it, I would run it as is... If it has problems, I would pull it apart then... there are too many Ls1's being installed as it with much higher mileage.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

I would run it as is throw a cam , ring wear is usally very good on lsx my motor had 110k miles and looked amazing inside still seen the cross hatch , but I wanted to addresse the weak rod bolts and upgrade to arp, but also redid cam bearings, rings etc since im already there , price of rebuilding ls1 and gaskets can quickly add up , yours being 85k would save time and money and run cam. If your only wanting to change gasket and rings

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the input.

Heres an update

I tore the LS1 down last week and everything looked great. Even all the bearings showed no signs of wear at all. I could have definitely just installed the motor and would have been good to go, however I plan on driving the car daily for at least the next 4 years. Along with DD I plan on running plenty of 1/4 mile passes and some road course at Road Atlanta. So better safe then sorry.

Atleast now I know exactly what I have, which is a good pullout that is low mileage. On top of that, I know the trans is low mileage and hopefully a good one aswell. So with new rings, bearings, gaskets, etc I have a solid motor that should last a while. I should have all the engine parts in by next week, and the LS1 should be put back together soon.

I am going with the Vengeance Racing VXR4 cam. It is a pretty aggressive cam with good street manners. Hopefully it sounds nasty with the Long tube headers and cutouts open.

Sorry for the crappy phone picture, but heres the LS1 while I was cleaning it up some. I don't have any after pics as of now.



In the mean time I am prepping the intake for paint,(Brilliant Red body color) and searching for some carbon fiber valve covers. When the engine is in the car I want every thing to look nice and neat, as if it could have been stock, and the owner tastefully upgraded with performance and appearance parts.

83Z28/L69

I haven't ran a VRX4, but I ran a Vindicator in my 99 Z28. I was really really happy. The VRX4 should be close, and is a quality piece.I highly recommend the Comp Cams 918 springs. Good spring and won't break the bank.

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

I thought about the Vindicator, but Ron at Vengeacne told me it was a very aggressive cam.

Did you have an auto or M6? How was power under the curve? What about gas mileage?

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Good mild cam choice should hit 400 to the wheels with good tune , valvetrain life should be good also word on the street is that there going 30,000 miles plus on good quality springs , but I would check valvetrain life to just be safe, I think its like every 10,000 or 15,000 miles, I went with a spec. eps cam

pace performance is the cheapest I found gaskets

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Looks like a lot of fun!
Look into these:http://www.speedwaymotors.com/AFCO-2...bly,23487.html
You have to buy the weld in plate separately. With the motor out, and easy access to the k-member, now would be the time - if you're interested in weight jacks. Much cheaper and better than GC

83Z28/L69

6spd. 4.10 gears. It was OK under the curve,, it had pretty good manners for what it was. I got around 15 mpg, but then again, I didn't measure. It was a toy. If you are to check it out, I think my buddy would mind. He's down in Duluth. IMHO, I think the VRX4 will better suite DD duties.

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the heads up with pace performance!

TEDSgrad thanks! I was trying to figure out what I was going to do with suspension. I know after the swap it will sit higher, and I don't want to cut the moogs more, so it looks like those will be the solution. What other parts do I need to go with the link you posted?

Thanks 83z28. Sounds like I am sold on the VRX4. However there are only a few videos on youtube that show the VRX4, and they don't sound as lopey as I'd like. I know lope isn't exactly what I should be looking for in a camshaft, however after driving a 305 for the past few years, yeah, I think you guys can understand lol.



Now for the update.

The block and heads are at the machine shop. They are doing a valve job, resurfacing heads, vatting the block/pistons, and replacing the cam bearings. Once it gets back the ball is going to get rolling. I am ordering the cam kit, all the gaskets, bearings, seals, etc within the next two days. The engine should be put back together by next weekend.

Aside from motor/trans I have been working on some appearance updates. As far as appearance, my goal is to make the car look a tad more "high end" or "sophisticated". So I wrapped grille and my instrument panel in carbon fiber. It's very subtle and I like it.

I will be more than willing to wrap these for people! Just pm me.

RS/SS 4.8

iTrader: (1)

That wrap looks pretty good. Ill get with you when mine reaches that state lol.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Here's my build thread so you can see what's involved.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...g-vetruck.html

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

What other cams you have in mind

don't forget to check you cam retainer gasket and get new dumb bell restrictor

also if you have funds for arp rod bolts also would be a good investment as the tebd to fail at higher rpm

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

My cam list is, MS4, torquer V3, and VRX5. Everyone that runs these cams seem to love them. They all say that each has great driveabilty, however everyone that does not have one, says they are way to big for a daily driver. I do know they are pretty big cams.

I am going off of Ron at Vengeance racing and 83Z28/L69's input, which has swayed my toward the VRX4.


This is the idle I would love to have.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Yea the sound of a cam has a lot to do with more than LSA also keep in mind of exhuast setup and muffler can change how it sounds there alot of variables to it

That was a custom cam grind that has more lift and overlap and longtubes etc in video , custom cam are usally from comp grinds and usally on XER Lobes as many off the self grinds , benefit of custom grind is that its tailored to your setup , you can have it sound how you want it and you get to
More out of setup its a little more but worth it , talk to Pat G or you can PM Predator on ls1tech he will spec you a cam for free as long you post results he is highly respected cam guru has many threads , I talk to many cam company and research alot about the different lobes out there, cam motiin vs comp lobes etc before buying a cam that was my last purchase I guess you can say I built engine tgen built cam for engine

But keep in mind sound doesn't make power i would get to caught up with sound , ever hear a loud honda pass by sounds like he going 100 but only going 30 .. use to have a 305 TBI before also tht was fun lol

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Exactly Zach,exhaust plays a huge factor. Ive heard some setups that sound stock, just to have them open the cutout, and have it sound like the car above.

After more research I decided to go with the VRX5. Ron assured me that I would probably like it alot, especially with a T56 and 4.10 gears. I will look into the custom grind cams, and PM those members before placing my order.



I got the block back from the machine shop. They resurfaced heads,installed cam bearings, did a valve job, and Vatted everything.

Here is the LS1 all cleaned up with a painted intake.(Internals aren't installed) The intake is the same color as the car, which is a deep maroon. The seecond picture makes it look red, which it isn't. The intake still needs to be sanded, buffed/polished to get a deep shine. The carbon fiber valve covers should tone everything down, and contrast great with the intake and fender wells!




Ehh, dont mind the hose with the overspray. It is dry rotted and torn. So it will be replaced. Heads/valve covers are flipped around, they were just placed up there for a mock up.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Look into ls6 valley cover mod better design less clutter less oil consumption

I plan to add a oil catcher to mines

doesnt matter which way you put the heads outcome is the same lol

IROC-Z123

cant Waite to see more.

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, I'll Look into it zach. Me too Iroc-z123 lol.


I got a dash and guages out of a trans am the other day. The plan is to wrap it in vinyl(leather type). The vinyl will have some nice french seam stitching to compliment other parts of the interior. I am hoping that it will look highend and modern, without over doing it.

Heres what I started with. I should have it finished by mid week.




and a shot from yesterday's local cruise in

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

Y U NO THIRD GEN DASH!?!

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Haha, Dont kill me guys. I was on the fence about it myself. But convinced myself that a leather wrapped trans am dash, with a leather wrapped center console, double din, and digital center gauges would look great. Especially with the Leather seats I have in mind. I also have a real trick interior idea/piece but cant give it away just yet. So just hang with me until I have it all finished, then judge, lol.

Worse case scenario, I swap the 4th gen dash in, and decide to go back to original at a later date.

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Here's a solid update. All progress from this update has happened within the past 7 days.

I put the LS1 Back together. It now has new rings, bearings, and gaskets. 236/238 602 lift Comp Cam, hardened pushrods, and new valve springs. The heads got a valve job, resurfaced, and shimmed springs.

Pics of motor being put together.









Long Tubes

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

I took my last drive with the 305 this past Wednesday and parked it in the garage. After about 6 hours of removing this, disconnecting that, moving jackstands, "oh never knew that was there", etc, the 305/700r4 was ready to be pulled.



The lift was about 8" away from the nose, the pillow was there just for peace of mind.





Removed "clutter"


After alot of sanding, grinding, deagreasing. Oh, and did I say sanding and degreasing?


Etching Primer


Next is a little sanding, then the top coat.

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

So as of now, I'm rockin' the hydrualics look untill I get the pedals in, fuel pump, and the tons of other little misc parts required for the lsx/t56. LS1 and T56 should be in by the end of the week.







Heres a list of what I have planned for it after the LSX/T56 is installed and running


Brembo CTSV Brakes
Corbeau Leather Racing Seats w/ Reupholstered rear seats to match
Carbon Fiber Splitter
Rear Diffuser
XXR 526 Wheels
Weight Jacks Up front
UMI's New Coil Over rear suspension kit

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

This is gonna be a nice one when done !!

Lmancha96

Car is looking great dude. Going to be the whole package once you get the engine and tranny in!

Any more details on that double din you did? Looks pretty legit.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Exhaust setup affects sound, but the most of the sound comes from the heads/cam. It's hard to quantify the sound that heads will cause, but they're the first thing the exhaust gasses pass through. Most of the sound of those engines is the cam though. More duration makes for a more cackley sound and makes it a LOT harder for fuel injection to handle well. More duration causes more overlap. LSA has a small effect but the vast majority of it is duration. You'll find that most cams for fuel injected cars go to a 114 LSA specifically to tone down the overlap, but it's a very minor difference. It's one of those "Every bit helps" situations where you're trying to get the computer to understand how to feed the engine.

This is the stock 305 with long tubes and a dual 3inch exhaust with X-pipe into Moroso spiral flows:

http://s6.photobucket.com/user/Dirty..._5848.mp4.html

Sounds like a donkey's behind.

This is my vortec 350 with a very mild cam with the same long tubes and a 3 inch dual exhaust setup with Moroso Spiral Flow mufflers. Just like the 305 video above.

Same long tubes, but now with a dual 2.5" pipes merging into a single 3.5 inch pipe through a dynatech splitflow (a circle track version of a Borla XR-1) that's dumped at the rear tire.


And that same exhaust, but NOW it's run OVER the axle, so there's an extra 4 feet of exhaust piping.

The engine determines most of the exhaust sound. The muffler just muffles it in different ways. Different exhaust systems color the sound, but the sound you and everyone else (myself included) really wants can only be created by a larger cam. You want cam lope, the requires a cam with a lot duration, but I suggest you build to a power level, not to a sound.

grngryoutmyway

iTrader: (1)

Lookin good man, can't wait to see it done.

86T/A_Ram_Air

subscribed for sure....looking great man. awaiting videos of first start lol

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

I have to disagree with you duration doesn't single handedly make the sound of a engine there a lot of variables like I said s not the way main thing to consider,

There are a lot of variables like I said heads and cam are the biggest factor but cam duration doesn't determine the sound

LSA doesnt determine sound also you can have 2 cams with one with 115LSA the other with 112LSA and you can have more lope with the 115LSA cam due to the overlap differences between cams and will sound differently , duration doesn't make the car sound differently

Duration does have a affect on sound but if you have the overlap you don't need large amount of duration and with all the variables with a cam there are endless options

Large duration isn't always a good thing with everybody's goals IE DD, race , or both etc
I do agree with you
and that the exhaust setup makes a difference on how you want your car to sound and fine tune that sound, that the selected engine modifications/upgrades have made, as some like louder or more quiet exhaust note , as most don't like to drive with open headers some do tho lol

Major factors of engine sound
Displacement, compression ratio, exhuast outside that cam overlap is what is needed to get desired big cam sound

My reasoning the big cam sound people love
To get that it is determined by how early the exhuast valve is open before bottom dead center "BBDC", the earlier it opens the more exhaust pressure remains in the cylinder,which in turns creates the pleasing lopey idle that car guys love, but a lopey sounding car doesn't make it fast and the larger the overlap more issues arises with tuning and low rim idle because of that

I don't want guys go out and pic the wrong cam and get poor performance and among other stuff
With that said the combination of duration, LSA etc will help create the desired overlap to achieve your sound needs
Buggy- swap looking good almost there

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I dont disagree with anything you said, but you say things like "It's not duration, it's how early the valves open" etc etc. That is precisely duration. More duration generally means more overlap. I can't but speak in generalities given the 500 different factors, but if you want the cam lope sound, the only way to get that is massive duration. More duration = more overlap. Wider LSA is a llittle less overlap, but a big duration cam with wide LSA can have far more overlap than a mild cam with a narrow LSA. Literally the ONLY part of this that can be generalized is that more duration = more lope. That is almost always true. If you're going to a much larger displacement engine it will massively counteract that and make a cam much milder sounding, but it is, generally the most important factor.

But I agree with you, people like to build engines to a sound and dont understand all the sacrifices that come with that. The entire car has to be built with that in mind, and that takes expertise that most people either dont have or had to learn the hard way. I went with a much milder cam than I probably should have for that very reason, and although I wish I had a bigger cam now, it performs fine the way it is.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

I agree with you also and I have a mild cam also spec out for my engine combo vs off the shelf , also going for a sleeper tone that screams at WOT why i pick hooker max flow 4" muff, nothing more surprising than a silent killer lol

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

Some good info ^


Well I have been booked with classes and work, and haven't got much time on the Z28. I decided to take another step back, replace the entire steering assembly and rebuild the steering box. Also I just ordered a new Tubular K Member! I figured, if everything is this torn down, might aswell go the extra mile and really have a "new" car.

So for this Friday,

Installing new K-Member, hoping it gets here by Friday
New steering components
Installing Rear End with 4:10's
Fuel Pump
Attaching wiring harness to motor/trans

And this saturday and sunday will consist of installing the motor/trans. We'll see if I can get it running by sunday night! PLENTY of pictures and updates to come!


Thanks for the interest guys!

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

10-bolt 4.10s are a little weak, so if it's a 10-bolt have a spare gearset around. It's not hard to install them if you buy a few tools and it's pretty interesting. If it's a 9 inch or 12 bolt... well, carry on!

With 4.10's, you should be able to get away with a pretty raunchy cam if you so desired. the main problem with the Gen III+ engines and big cams is they push those cams to insane valve lifts that require regular valve spring replacements. It's hard to get a longer duration Gen III cam that doesnt have lifts in the upper .500's. You could always get something custom ground if you wanted, but you're basically losing out on power. If you get something around 220 duration on the intake side, you'll start to edge into that lopey sound. My car above has a 218/224 cam, and it sounds pretty mild. LT4 hotcams, for example, are 218/228, and they sound about the same. But cams in that range are VERY tunable and EFI can handle it no problem. in the 230/230 range it gets pretty specialized and you'll have to really build around the cam a lot more.

But with a manual, the main thing is the rear gear ratio to make it work with a cam. You dont have to worry about stall speeds and whatnot. You're already going to be putting a decent exhaust and intake on it so even a large cam should be able to breathe.

If you're REALLY building it up, you can go with a cam like the Texas Speed MS3, but that's a REALLY big one.

With 4.10s, good exhaust and intake, and good tuning you should be able to make something like this work pretty well...

https://www.texas-speed.com/p-1213-t...-camshaft.aspx

It's got a nice power band, decent duration, and the lifts are tolerable. You'll want to keep an eye on the valvesprings, but it's not so crazy you'll need to replace them all the time. That might actually be a situation where you never have to touch them again.

This is a 224/224 cam only LS1

This is a "Comp 224/230" cam... Notice the idle near the end. Probably this one:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...make/chevrolet

Thats a lot of valve lift though. You'll need to defer to someone with more experience about the maintenance needed for that.



As soon as you're in 220ish range, you'll start to get that rumpity sound. At the 230 point it gets REALLY rumpity. You've got the gears to do it, just do the research to see what all you need to make it work.

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

When researching cams I looked into all the Texas Speed cams. Had it down to the MS3 and MS4, but decided to go with Vengeance racing. I am running a Vengeance Racing VRX5 Camshaft. It is 236/238 .601/.605 on a 113 LSA. So it's a pretty big cam. It's already installed in the motor and ready to go. With the longtube headers, VRX5 cam, and an open cutout, it should sound pretty nasty. The T56, exhaust and 4.10's should compliment it nicely as far as performance goes.


The new axle is a 10 bolt with 4.10's. It is beefed up a tad, but I do know I still have to take it easy. It will be replaced with a S60 axle when funds allow.

90camaro355rs

Nice build. Looking forward to more updates as they come along.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

For cam cars need to check valve springs every 30,000 miles

Also valve stem stability is important also might be worth buying some dual tapered pushrods reduces ticking increase upper rpm power later in future when changing out springs

3/8th pushrods etc

Here a good thread with good info in that I have

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...led-243-a.html

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

It sounds like you've figured out what you're doing pretty well. That should be very, VERY fast, and with the 4.10s it should be fine on the street with the T56.

You can keep patching together the 10 bolt any time you need to. Gearsets are $75-$100 used (I wouldnt buy new ones, they're going to break regardless) so after you break what you have, get another gearset and get ready for a beefier rear. You have to buy a LOT of gearsets to get close to the cost of a new rear so even if you peel the pinion gear like an onion it's not a big deal to just throw it back together.

But it will last a while on street tires as long as you arent too brutal to it.

You should bring it down to Macon and autocross. We get 8 runs compared to the 4 runs the Atlanta region gets. Our venue isnt nearly as nice, though.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

Been thinking of doing the same thing myself. Though I would follow along.

Buggy Disaster

iTrader: (1)

So the car is officially LS1/T56 ready.
Engine bay painted. Still needs to be wetsanded/buffed.
My Spohn Tubular K member also came in. So that is now installed. It was a pretty strait forward installation.







k member installed





I got the new to me rear end installed too. It's got 4.10's, tubular torque arm that mounts to the body, stronger axles, and a aftermarket girdle.



Today I will be installing the wiring harness to the motor, attaching the clutch, then the T56. Then it all goes in hopefully tomorrow. Lol, every time I say the motor is bound to go in on X day, something comes up.