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thanks for the pics. i see what you did there on the transmission cross-member.
right now i am sort of leaning towards [$2,000] Hooker Blackheart (full system) like BADNBLK...leaning that way. i dont like spending THAT kind of money, but the only thing i like less are irritating hassles and dissatisfaction. like you said, if it works out well, you forget about the cost. but you will not forget about the shortcomings until you do it right, and pay out twice.
NRE (Nutter Racing Engines) is just providing me with an engine. i don't think that they even do any fabrication or installations there. I will definitely do some inquiring about the engine management hardware and software. I just assumed that i would be needing to do a throttle cable retrofit. i'm not even sure if this engine comes with an electronic gas pedal. i'll find out.
I suggest you use a GM ECM. Most shops know how to use and tune with the stock hardware. Once you go aftermarket ECM you're nearly on your own because most shops don't know how to tune it well.
I agree, again.
Stock ECM's have proven themselves in all kinds of environments. A true LS3 uses E38 w/58x reluctor tooth count (some will rebuild truck iron block motors with LS3 top end) and is an aluminum block: #40-#50 savings. It will have an electronic pedal. The only way to get around that is to take the reluctor wheel off the crank and swap on a 24x (LS1, LS6, and LS2) then use earlier ECM's. The builder should spell all this out to you. You could also ask what header size will be best for the build/tune, also.
I'm 99% sure that the provided ECM is a stock type.
just got off the phone with Holley Performance Products (Ricky)
and Precision Industries (Mike).
For Hooker Blackhearttrue dual, plus supporting mods (motor mounts, transmission mount), $2,424.80 (free shipping - no tax).
And my Vigilante converter IS a direct replacement and will work on a 4L60E. According to Mike, my part # is a 2800-3000 stall speed and should be perfect for the LS3 since its a street car.
next i gotta find out about a rear end and drive shaft.
Limp around on the rear while working out the kinks, then you can spend more on the rear. Strange S60 is overkill IMO, but cost effective. 9" has a higher potential, but they too are costly to get them there. I went with Mark Williams 12 bolt (don't like Moser and Strange didn't have my options). Dana 44 is pushing the limit at this power level. I tried to source my drive line to 650 hp as I will stay N/A.
from what i'm seeing, Strange S60 might be the most economical at about $2,700, especially since their offering accepts '98-'02 disc brakes and I happen to have a '98 donor car. The other Strange offering, it looks like i can get complete with LT1 brakes for around $3,070. i don't like Moser either.
i was on the phone with Strange Engineering inquiring about the S60. i wasn't wild about the customer service - the tech guy i got seemed more confused than i was. looks like that rear end will require a shortened driveshaft & possibly "modifications" to panhard bar and torque arm.
I have LT1 pads on my 12 bolt and I have found the selection of brake pads to be wanting on the higher end of the spectrum. Seems the LS1 rear brakes have more options. The only real nice thing about LT1 style is the fantastic, highly reliable parking brake design.
You could try Carl at CRP - find him on that Tech site. He has the best deals on S60. It is the most economical. I just didn't want all the weight or mass. He could give you a package deal on DS, too. You could look at Lonnie P's swap thread (LS3, S60), he went with Carl I think.
Plus, I got New Big Ford Housing ends - uses set-20 bearings. Big plus for a corner carver-investigate the differences in housing ends and how your brake decisions play out. Mark Williams' axles. And 30 spline TrueTrac. A billet 1350 yoke (good idea) and of course 1/2" studs. Cost was $400 or so over the S60.
I did the swap and ran on the 9bolt for awhile before swapping the rear, but I did not race or pull hard around any corners, and I'm not a drag guy. I think I got $200 for it, cover w/stud girdle, cables, brakes, rotors and all.
Since I have Wilwood 6pot up front, I went with Wilwood D-154 on back using BP-10 pads front and rear. They have the parking brake mechanism, but I haven't hooked it up, yet. Floating calipers on the rear eliminate a lot of problems.
Exhaust seems reasonable with mounts, if that's Black too.
I have LT1 pads on my 12 bolt and I have found the selection of brake pads to be wanting on the higher end of the spectrum. Seems the LS1 rear brakes have more options. The only real nice thing about LT1 style is the fantastic, highly reliable parking brake design.
Less weight/size with the thinner rotor and more compact caliper/e-brake design with the 89-97 caliper setup as well.
I foresee using the (LS1) brakes off of my '98 SS donor car - although I'm getting the impression that that might entail going with the "4th Gen width" unit. Since I am already running 4th Gen WS6 wheels, does that just mean I wont need to use spacers anymore?
On the subject of rear ends, does anyone have any thoughts on Hawks Custom 82-2002 Camaro / Firebird 8.8 Rear End
as compared to the S60 and 12-bolts?
I foresee using the (LS1) brakes off of my '98 SS donor car - although I'm getting the impression that that might entail going with the "4th Gen width" unit. Since I am already running 4th Gen WS6 wheels, does that just mean I wont need to use spacers anymore?
On the subject of rear ends, does anyone have any thoughts on Hawks Custom 82-2002 Camaro / Firebird 8.8 Rear End
as compared to the S60 and 12-bolts?
CustomBlackBird has made many posts about his 8.8 from a Grand Marquis converted and then a torque arm adapter bolted on. I'll be referencing many of his ideas when I start on my 8.8 build. If you can weld or have a friend that can doing it yourself will only cost half (at most) for what Hawks wants.
Linson
Talk with AC about computer / harness
I am running a gen I small block converted to LS style fuel injection and the guys at Nutter provided ECU and harness. Really easy to integrate with stock harness.
They will want a ECU to run engine on dyno anyway.
Linson
Also I am using a Hawks 8.8 rear end. Only difficulty was spring pockets are just a tiny bit tight for ground control weight Jack's . Had to sand the inside of the spring pockets to fit the lower part of the weight Jack's in.
just got off the phone with Carl at CRP. very cool guy, just like everyone says.
S-60 / S-Trac posi / 3.54 gears : $2,645, plus less than $200 for shipping. plus less than $200 for powder coat. so just under 3 grand. I guess I'm gonna go with that.
Also, the rear brakes on Buck Nasty (the $2600 '98 SS Donor Car) are good and will have no fitment issues with my 4th gen WS6 wheels which I don't foresee changing. I still might get the 3rd Gen-width axles just in case they ever come out with a 17" "Formula Wheel."
planning to have Strange weld the anti-sway bar brackets maybe an inch inboard to avoid the purported issue of the rear anti-sway bar not lining up.
This is the decision I've reached on the rear end.
Not this year.
It will be the "Stage 2" of this project. while my budget for this, i think, is "respectable" it is not quite "formidable." so in order to insure that nothing gets done half-*** on the front of the car, the rear end will just be a separate project - maybe in a year's time. [I claim zero with no dependents all year for a reason.]
while i understand that there is risk, i think that (with no traction to really speak of) the odds will be in my favor to last a year. and if the rear end breaks (and doesn't kill me and the car in the process) i'll bite the bullet and spend the 3 grand on the S60.
yes, i realize that 550 crank horsepower is overkill without traction, but in the meantime, i'll just pine away for what it can do with traction for another year or so.
very close to pulling the trigger on the Hooker dual exhaust. i tried calling them today and was on hold for 25 minutes before i gave up. wanting to find out if the related engine mounts will move the engine/transmission fore or aft, requiring a different length of drive shaft for the stock rear end. obviously, when i get the Dana 60, i'll get a shorter (probably 3" chromoly) drive shaft.
really need to go out and pull the engine and trans off the Formula, and off the '98 SS. why does it have to be so frickin cold outside? and i might just take a week off from work too.
been trying to order the exhaust direct from Holley for three days because i would've preferred to walk through the process, part by part, with one of their technical reps, but its just endless hold time. might have to go through Jegs or Summit instead.
putting off the rear end for a year is going to free up funding to make sure the front half is really wired tight - no shortcuts.
Radiator - depends on your commitment to weight savings (for me, a no-brainer). The stock copper has plastic side tanks that do crack over time and heat cycles. Any weight saved fore (especially) or aft of the wheel-base is important. Plus a newer aluminum one will have greater efficiency. I didn't think twice about changing.
always have *hated* the look of the plastic shrouding behind the AC canister. as part of this LS conversion, I was looking forward to being able to remove it altogether, thus freeing up space and cleaning up the look of the engine bay. upon closer inspection though, it appears that the blower motor has ducting that is integral to that plastic shroud assembly.
i can easily do without AC, but i do need heat, and the ability to defrost/defog my windows.
ideas?
solutions?
something I don't know about which makes my goal entirely doable?
not really seeing anything that i would consider "suitable" bolt holes to attach the engine hoist chains to, so I decided to remove the upper plenum and AS&M runners. probably will end up using four lower intake bolt holes.
however...
four of the lower runner bolts are 7/32 hex head, not T40 Torx screws like the rest. I know because I have R&R'ed those runners at least a couple of times. Those four bolts are the exact reason I bought a set of these...
yet for some reason, today, this tool no longer works...even though it has worked every time in the past. now, it just snaps into the hole and spins freely - as if something was stripped. but nothing is stripped. i dont know what the **** is going on. I wanted to have the L98 out by today. then by early tomorrow. now thats starting to seem unrealistic. its pissing me off.
four of the lower runner bolts are 7/32 hex head, not T40 Torx screws like the rest. I know because I have R&R'ed those runners at least a couple of times.
The thread on those bolts are metric, so I would assume the hex is as well. I know the replacement bolts I got are all metric. 7/32" is 5.5mm. You could try a 6mm hex wrench...
On the coolant reservoir, are you talking factory plastic or an aftermarket aluminum one, or what?
The coolant reservoir is a plastic replacement (like stock). I ended up getting it free because Eckler's wrote it off and never sent out a call tag. That's why I am willing to sell it so cheap.
I replied to your PM about the AC delete box. There is no gasket with it.
The coolant reservoir is a plastic replacement (like stock). I ended up getting it free because Eckler's wrote it off and never sent out a call tag. That's why I am willing to sell it so cheap.
I replied to your PM about the AC delete box. There is no gasket with it.
i replied to you and asked again about the gasket. sorry. i guess i should have read this closer.
i don't need another stock style coolant reservoir. mine isn't discolored or anything, i just have never really cared for two big, white, plastic tanks so prominent in the engine bay.
This engine pull is being a real pain in the ***.
This isnt even the first '89 Formula 350 that i've pulled the engine and trans out of, and it seems like it only took me a couple of hours last time - granted i am taking much more care this time, but sheesh, here we are on what? day four?
so i was having some trouble figuring out what to do about the UMI torque arm. since i cant see what the hell i'm doing on the clams hell end, i removed the bolts off the diff. figured i'd lower the transmission a bit and get it out of the "tunnel" so i can see whats what and operate a couple of wrenches.
i cannot disconect the transmission bell housing from the engine. i can get a 9/16 wrench on the top bolts from inside the engine bay, but i cant turn the wrench...not much room to turn a wrench and the bolts seem pretty stiff.
so today the plan is to disconnect the trans cross member, lower the car, disconnect the engine mounts, and pull the engine and trans forward so i can disconnect them.
i don't need another stock style coolant reservoir. mine isn't discolored or anything, i just have never really cared for two big, white, plastic tanks so prominent in the engine bay.
Good example of what we all go through: While I'm in there, I might as well do this, and then I should do that, and might as well...
Keep focused on your budget and the swap. Get the kinks worked out, then come back and fix cosmetic issues/ancillaries.
i cannot disconect the transmission bell housing from the engine. i can get a 9/16 wrench on the top bolts from inside the engine bay, but i cant turn the wrench...not much room to turn a wrench and the bolts seem pretty stiff.
I recall using several extensions and used power from above the tailstock. I don't normally like to use multiple extensions, but it worked and wasn't difficult to get the socket on the bolt head blind.
i cannot disconect the transmission bell housing from the engine. i can get a 9/16 wrench on the top bolts from inside the engine bay, but i cant turn the wrench...not much room to turn a wrench and the bolts seem pretty stiff.
Slip another larger box end wrench over the end of the wrench that is on the bolt and you'll be able to get a lot more leverage to loosen the bolt. Once you crack the bolts loose it will go easy from there.
okay...here's what i ended up having to do:
i had to lift up the motor and move it forward to clear the motor mounts.
this gave me room to operate a breaker bar which was needed to break loose some of the bell housing bolts. then, the input shaft on the transmission was hanging on for dear life with the engine already as far forward as it could go. so, i had to start pulling the transmission backwards. fortunately, my neighbor popped in and i had an extra set of hands. also, had to use two jacks on the transmission in order to keep it relatively level, thus taking weight (pressure) off the input shaft, allowing the engine and trans to pull apart {the transmission did end up crash landing onto it's side - didn't hurt it}. and i was able to put a cap on the torque converter only after it had bled out all over the floor while the input shaft was still hanging on to the motor for dear life.
also, i had to approach with the engine hoist from the side of the car instead of the front because from the front, the weight of the engine kept trying to pull the hoist into the nose of the car. i don't remember having to do that last time. i don't remember the bell housing being a pain in the *** last time. i didn't have to remove the upper plenum and runners last time. this time, i was even a split second away from having to remove the accessories off the front of the motor.
but alas...its is out. now i hafta get the LS1 (core) and 4L60 out of the Camaro.
well, as it turns out, just about a quarter mile from where my engine is being built is a salvage yard, "All American Classics Inc.", Vancouver, WA (360)254-8850, and they have several OEM steel AC delete boxes for $99.00, so i think i'll just do that. seems like it'd be less hit or miss on fitment, plus i can have it powder coated.
The Hooker Blackheart Headers with the Dyno Don's. Both are quality pieces.
The one knock on the Dyno Don's is the practically zero space between the bolt holes and some of the primary tubes, making installation and removal a bit of a b!tch.
Fortunately, it looks like that won't be an issue with these LS headers.
still waiting on the Header Back system and the transmission mount.
Man, that is a clean engine you pulled out. Is it going into storage or are you selling it?
The problem with Hooker is that I always wonder what the neighbors think when they see those words on the box.... can't wait to get it inside and out of sight!
02-12-2017, 02:43 PM
Big plus for a corner carver-investigate the differences in housing ends and how your brake decisions play out. Mark Williams' axles. 
