Nocturnal

Hi everyone, I've just joined the site after contemplating what car to buy next, I'm sure you have a rough idea what I'm leaning towards already. There aren't many Camaros in the UK relatively speaking, so trying to arrange a proper look round one, let alone a test drive of one is proving difficult. So I'm hoping you guys can be patient and answer what might seem like some fairly basic questions for me.

My biggest issue is that every car I've ever had is what you might call a ''drivers'' car, it started with a MK1 Toyota MR2, then there was a Nissan 200SX (UKDM turbocharged version of your 240SX), another MK1 MR2, and then finally a Miata/MX5 (all modified) which left my driveway for the final time last week. I know American cars receive a bad reputation in Europe as far as handling is concerned despite the prowess of the later generation Corvettes, and having never driven or lived with one before, I'm not sure whether to believe it's unfounded or not. However, I try to spend as much of my spare time as possible at a de-commissioned race track/toll road in Germany called the Nurburgring which you may have heard of if you're into that sort of thing, so the handling of the car is quite important to me. I'm not necessarily looking for *****-out speed, but I am interested in knowing how well composed the car is, how forgiving the chassis is, and it's natural tendencies in stock form. The whole point of buying this car is that I'm due to join the Royal Air Force in a few months, and am trying slowly to pull away from the world of motorsport by buying a simply fun daily driver, so I'm not necessarily looking for blistering lap times, so much as something which I can exploit and enjoy, and drive home again.

Effectively, my biggest questions are:

-How effective a track car is the 3rd gen in stock form?
-Is it worth modifying the car with the intention of using it on a track in terms of being cost-effective?
-What kind of suspension does the 3rd gen utilise (layout/wishbones etc)
-Is there the scope for adjusting the camber/castor/toe of the wheels with the OEM gear?

The chances are, I'll probably buy the third gen I have my eye on anyway, despite knowing absolutely nothing about these cars. It's a bright yellow '87 T-bar, manual V8 with side-exit exhausts, and that satisfies the inner child in me and makes me grin like an idiot at the noise. I'm just trying to think long-term, the chances are I won't be able to resist motorsport for more than a year, and the RAF have their own sprint series which will be readily accessible to me. I don't want to waste money turning an enjoyable DD into a mediocre track car when I can buy an ex-Formula Ford single seater for similar money. But I'd also prefer not to spend £5k on a car which I can't use on the road, and then have to buy another DD to trailer tha damned thing to events.

Any helps is greatly appreciated, even if it's just simple power/performance specs for the '87 car.

Thanks

RED_DRAGON_85

how effective is the car on a track:
its heavy. thats your biggest adversary. the bad rap american cars get is because of this extra weight. you are looking at about 3300 - 3400 lbs if you have a mostly stock car.
its got good power, and the five speed will make it better on the track.
there are plenty of autox-ers here, but your intent is far different than theirs.
you have bank going into turns and camber changes mid corner ect... all in all, you will not be going under 8 minutes unless you spend serious dough on it. (if we are talking about the same part of the nurburgring that is)

is it worth modifying it:
any of the modifications typically done to thirdgens are in the interest of being better street cars.
subframe connectors will take flex out of the chassis and make it more solid.
lightweight components will give you adjustability and increase lightness (lotus expression there)
all in all, stock form, its one of the best handling cars of its era, with mods, it will go over 1g lateral on a skid pad, but be prepared to shell out the cash (again)

what kind of suspension:
rear:
solid axle with lower control arms and a torque arm. panhard rod is a given.
torque arm mounts at tail shaft of transmission and is a very long link and gives good instant center characteristics.

front:
macpherson strut with k-member mounted springs.
you can convert to coilovers but IMO its not worth it. you can get decent struts and racing springs (it uses 5" springs) for less money and be just as effective.


can you adjust front camber and caster:
yes and yes.
if you get new upper strut mounts you can adjust it even more.





its a good car.
with good (and wide) tires it will grip well enough to make up for the weight.
1/4 mile is not the "home" of this car.
it was built for roads just like the nurburgring.
as a side note, GM actually intended the body be used as a platform for a lightweight economy car, that is until a speed junky laid eyes on it and changed the plan to make it a corner carving "mustang eater"

so in my opinion:
do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it!

Nocturnal

Thanks for that! In terms of weight, is any of this weight necessary, or are we talking body panels/interior trim etc? How much camber is there to play with on stock top mounts? How easy to come by are ready-made roll cages? What are the widest/lowest offset wheels the stock fenders will take? As I say, it's unlikely to see any of the UK circuits that I loved to play on so much in the Mazda, but the Northloop it will definitely see, and the mountain roads around it too. I'm warming to the idea of doing some cost-effective mods, but I don't want to spend ridiculous amounts of time and money and end up with something relatively hardcore, again like the Mazda. If I'm honest, I've only ever seen a few GM cars that aren't Corvettes at the 'Ring, and they're usually later F-bodys, though I haven't seen one of them break into the 10s on a TF day.

RED_DRAGON_85

the driver has a lot to do with it...
its what 16 miles?
its not like the average enthusiast can memorize the best lines for each turn, ya know?

most of the weight is tied up in the structure of the unibody, although you can get rid of a lot of it.
2800 lbs seems to be the lower limit in terms of weight of a semi-street-legal thirdgen.

roll cages are pretty straight foreward, although most will be geared towards drag racing, if you go to a competent shop, they should be able to do whatever you want for less than a pre-built one.

11" wide rear wheels will fit with a little massaging. minitubs make it a lot easier as far as i know.
for the front, 9.5" is about as far as you can go outwards without looking rediculous.

as for the 11" wheels in back, it gets easier if your idea of "tucked" is a little bit looser than most peoples.

that being said, most people would agree that its better to get a lightweight 9.5" wheel with sticky track tires than a heavy 11" wheel with street tires.
but im sure that you know that.

camber and caster is adjusted via the upper strut mounts.
how much? i have no idea.
http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/ca...berplates.aspx
these will give you more adjustment and raise the mounting point one inch to put the strut back where it wants to be if you lower the car.
http://www.racecraft.com/proddetail.php?prod=340015 another good part.

you can have yourself a serious track machine for under 7000 if you start with a good motor and transmission. 3000 if you are on a budget and spend wisely.

Nocturnal

The Northloop is a shade over 13 miles, and you're right in that it's 90% driver, 10% car out there. Generally though, you can get an idea of how easy a car is to drive fast by timing TF runs. For example, I don't think I've seen an M3 CSL yet run slower than 9s, which to me suggests that the car is easy to exploit, rather than the type of drivers who necessarily buy the car. Obviously two driver in the same cars can hit very different times, so I'm not saying an Fbody isn't capable of those times. As I say, I'm not going to hit fast lap times in the Camaro anyway, that's what the Mazda was built for and I wont be putting anywhere near as much development time into the Camaro. I just don't want to crash the car!

Thanks for the rest of the information though! I think the cage will end up being the most expensive part if I'm honest. Custom-cages (good ones at least...) cost around £2k ($4k) here to have fabbed up, but I'll cross that bridge if/when I come to it.

RED_DRAGON_85

wow... we are lucky over here.
yeah i remember hearing a while back that an S2000 did the big loop in 8:20 or something... stock.
true, i guess that means that the car is very well balanced in stock form. honda did their homework

Midniteson2

here is one of the coolest thirdgens out there, and on your side of the pond too. you dont have to go this extreme but this just shows you the potential. http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/22/e...807x1201076616

paul_huryk

The third gen cars have a host of strengths and weaknesses in stock form, but the good news is that all the major weaknesses can be eliminated (or at least minimized) and the strengths are among the best.

In stock form, a thirdgen (TA or IROC) is going to be capable of 150mph (with the right drivetrain) and able to handle in the .90g range stock. Brakes aren't too performance oriented, but that is an easy fix.

There is no limit on power that you can stuff into one and it is possible in street form to push one in the 1.1g+ range on "street tires".

Strengths:
Unlimited power potential
Can use 50+ years of SBC engine parts
Huge aftermarket support
Can be lightened hundred lbs
Can fit a large tire under all 4 corners
Very aerodynamic, even in stock form

Weaknesses:
Sloppy chassis stiffness - easily fixed
Solid rear axle (a difference only on bumpy roads)
**** poor stamped metal suspension parts (easy aftermarket swap outs)
Stock brakes (except 1LE) are not too good (another easy fix)
TPI intake on top models not for high RPMS (still another easy fix)


You can convert the front suspension to coil overs, which will give more control at the expense of tire width. You can get a 275-40-17 under all 4 corners of a thirdgen.