Hey guys. I don't know if any of you remember me but I used to be a member here under the username TwitchRS, I owned a 91 3.1 camaro rs and it was an absolutly terrible car. Always broken, tons of problems, body damage, etc. Well anyways its been a couple years and a lot of things have happened. I joined the military, started college, etc. Well I had a good budget for a while and purchased a 2002 Z28 Camaro that I am currently building as a mean weekend ride/drag car. Ill put my mods up in my signature later.

Anyways here is the new scoop. This spring I am going to sell my dd(chevy blazer) and grab me another 3rd gen...however this time it is DEFINATLY going to be a v8. My plan for the car is pretty simple, but as I am very new to the auto-x/drifting scene I really am going into territory uncharted by me.
My original budget for the car will prolly be about 3 grand. I know around here I should be able to get a pretty stout 350TPI car for that. I am not going extreme with this build by any means because my main focus will be on my LS1. But here is what I want to do.

Daily Drive the 3rd gen.
Take it to some auto-x/drift events with my local car clubs
I really dont have big desire to be the best out there but I want to get my foot in the door with this experiment and if I have a cheap 3rd gen I wont be scared to race out on the track for fear of getting bumped or anything like I am my 2002. I am a good driver but I dont feel like I am nearly as good as I want to be because I dont track race or even practice it.
Keep the motor essentially stock, maybe just intake/exhaust/tune.
Do the needed suspension mods to make it go around corners well.

I don't know very much about the suspension in 3rd gens and the members of the forum have always seemed very knowledgeable so I am asking you all what is needed to accomplish the goals I just stated?

Last thing. I really wanna run a 350TPI, however being that they only came with auto's thats kinda not ideal for the drift world. Which route should I go? Suffer the auto(which will prolly break, all my auto's do) for the 350? Or get a 305TPI for the 5 Speed(which will most likely also break cause they are weak)?

 

drift- put a minispool in it and a 5 speed. i wouldnt think you would break any trans while smoking the tires sliding sideways....

autox- spend all your money on springs, shocks, aggressive brake pads, and tires.

 

the 5 speeds aren't much better than the auto's


i'd just throw a t56 in it, good shocks/struts and good springs, a wonderbar, subframe connectors, and a strut tower brace. then if you're autocrossing it get tires specifically for that purpose.

 

Well guess thats an option. Do people build t5's cheap? I hadn't thought of that. Since its gonna do a mix of auto-x and drift, I may not break it behind a 350TPI sliding sideways...I will most likely brake it doing auto-x or pulling on the road. I drive my cars lol.

How much money/time/work is involved in an auto to t5 swap being a 350TPI?

 

very interested in this...gotta few guys into 240z's that are big drifters in this area...would love to build a budget 3rdgen to run around there arrogant butts on an autocross course...

 

haha yeah man I would love to have a well built 3rd gen drift car. I will prolly just end up being an auto drifter. its pretty popular lately I guess. I really just dont wanna **** with swapping in a manual behind the 350TPI. Prolly just run the auto till it dies and rebuild it with good internals and throw it back in

 

for auto-x tires first as these can easily be a couple seconds off your times, then spend what you have left on the rest.

 

Yeah. Tires is an issue I can tackle after I get the car haha. I am more concerned with the big issues like the drivetrain.

 

I don't really see why an auto wouldn't work _better_ than a stick with a good converter and a shift kit that let you select and hold a gear. With a good converter and decent V8 you should be able to burn a set of low profile tires at will

 

i think the big thing will be the amount of heat you put into that converter while spinning tires at will for an hour or so though...of course it'd have to be a dang good clutch to hold up to it too...

hmm...quality converter, and a really big transmission cooler should keep 'em spinning i suppose...

 

People drift for an hour at a time?

For the most part, the converter shouldn't be doing much except when you slow down, but either way a big tranny cooler would be a good idea

 

not continuously...but people mostly drift on public roads...they drift for as long as they have gas around here...

 

I have been building my 85 Z28 for the sole purpose of having a bad *** street car, and also to do auto-x with it. It has a TPI 350, and a 700R4. So far I have completely overhauled my suspension. Over $3000.00 in suspension,wheels/tires. I'm not that concerned with cranking out the most HP, I want it to handle like it's on rails. So far so good, it handles AWESOME! I've only got 2 things left to be done on the underside. I need to install my subframe connectors (next weekend bought UMI boxed weld in ) and get a alum drive shaft. here is a pic of the underside of my car.


Tons of aftermarket suspension upgrades, springs, shocks, sway bars, bushings, panhard bar, torque arm, control arms, re-location brackets, steering brace, subframe connectors (next week) seems like the list is endless.......lol But it handles great!

 

thats badass man! I am starting to care less and less about the drifting idea. I never planned on doing it in a big way...I just mean I might find some deserted lots on occasion and have fun. However auto-x is still in my plans so maybe ill go the route you have unpredictable...just less invested. Your suspension looks great man. How much different does it feel from stock?

 

It's way different than stock. It is much firmer, you can really feel the road. Every bump or nitch in the asphault comes right through the chassis. I personally like it some people would hate it. Being that I have been a mechanic most of my life, I've driven almost every type of car out there (for test driving after a repair, or for diagnosing a noise) to me it feels pretty close to driving a Corvette (suspension wize) Biggest thing that you have to remeber after lowering your car and changing the geometry of the suspension, is to get it aligned correctly. I really felt a big change after installing the BMR fully adjustable torque arm. The car really seems to plant the rear tires and go from a take off. Going around corners, where I would usually tap the brakes just before the turn, I now give it steady throttle and the car just pulls right through the turn with out hesitation. No back end sliding out, no tire squeals, etc. It's really awesome!! Best bunch of mods I could ever do to make this car handle. I can only hope that after the subframe connectors are installed that it will only make things that much better. Here are some more pics of my suspension mods.






Here's how she sits after all of the suspension mods. Eibach Sportline springs, KYB AGX adjustable struts and shocks, BMR and UMI suspension, along with Energy Suspension bushings through out the car. Oh, and the rims are factory 1988 IROC wheels, and the tires are 245/50/16 Bridgestone Potenza 960AS Pole Positions. I still have to get the brakes done too. Cross drilled and slotted rotors, braided stainless steel brake lines, EBC "Red Stuff" brake pads, and new DOT 4 racing brake fluid with a boiling point of 450F degrees. It's a project....lol one day I'll get it all done, hopefully paint it in the summer.

 

man that actually looks really good. I really dont care for lowered cars much. but that actually sits really nice.
How much of a drop was it?

Also have you ever driven an ls1 z28? If so how does it feel compared to that?

 

Hey guys here is the GTA clone my buddy is gonna sell me if I want it in the spring.
He wants 3k

around here it seems like the 3rd gen camaro's are the black sheep and birds just dont exist lol there are almost none at all. Therefore having one(especially this gta) would be pretty awsome cause you just dont see them. Here are some pics of it:




Was a stock 305 TPI car
Its gonna have a freshly built but stock 350TPI
Its got a t5 in it with 11,000 miles on it
New Rear end
new front struts

the problem is that the body has 200,000 miles and that kinda concerns me. He says the body is straight(ill have to check it out but I trust him) but I can only imagine the suspension is all going to need replaced soon, and the interior is prolly a little rough, and he says the paint is fading pretty bad. he says the pictures make it look better than it is.

Either way for 3k I think it is a pretty great buy. Its a red GTA with a fresh, motor and somewhat fresh tranny(even though the t5 wont hold up behind a 350 long), and several other new parts...

What do you guys think?

 

seems like a good buy. even with lots of miles, you'll be upgrading all those parts with better aftermarket parts anyway. i'm not a GTA guy, as far as firebirds go, i like formulas the best. i will say that the z28 spoiler has no place on that car though, lol.

 

its not the z28 wing. the z28 wing has two or three connectors or whatever they are called inbetween the far side ones. That one just connects on the wings.

 

The drop was 1 3/4 in the front and 1 1/2 in the rear. The last LS1 Z28 I drove was a friend of mine. He had quite a few HP upgrades but the suspension was stock. Drove nice, blew the rear tires off quickly from a dead stop, responsive steering, to much body roll for my liking, the back end tended to wanna break loose at the apex of a hard corner. Had to be real gentle on the throttle mid corner or she would swing out on ya. The suspension was ok, a little on the soft side compared to my set up. It needed some attention to get it to handle really well. All in all it was a cool car, made alot of power handled a lil above average for a street car.

 

"pillars" is the word

either way, it's wrong for the car...needs a gta spoiler or nothing at all in my opinion. firebirds look sick with no spoiler!

 

A T5 will be fine behind a 350. Everyone thinks it'll blow it but the real reason GM never offered a 5 speed 350 car was because it would have rivaled the overpriced dog of a vette for that year. I had a T5 behind my cammed and bolt on 305 making 285 lbs ft of torque to the wheels with a centerforce clutch and it held up just fine. Beat the snot out of it almost every day too and I never had a problem. I sold it to my bro who put it behind a 400 SB and it lasted about 6 more months before it finally gave out, and he hammered on that thing. Was a non world class tranny too.

IMO it's only a rumor. T5 will hold up just fine. Trans Am series race cars all use T5's and they have no problems.

 

It's a T-Top car. The first thing you'll need is sub frame connectors, usually about $200 then you have to pay someone to weld it in. Then if you're doing this on the cheap, make sure that your front end is ok. Replace all front end parts with Moog except the tie-rod sleaves. Check the idler arm and ball joints as those are usually #1 and 2 to go. You want solid tie rod sleaves to keep your toe settings correct under cornering stress.

After that in order of bang for the buck:
1. Tires (Think Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3's at $180/corner, then BF Goodrich g-Force Sports or some NITTO 01's. http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ide/index.html)
2. Alignment. See Guldstrand website for his specs or even look at the Global west catalogue. Typically for the street, run -0.5 degrees negative camber, 0 toe and 4.5 degrees caster.
3. Read this thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...-shootout.html
4. Install polyurethane end links and sway bar bushings.
5. Change your brake pads to Hawk's HP pads if you're sticking with the stock brake setup.
6. Install del-a-lum nylon bushings in the front control arms. (This is cheaper to do while you have your front suspension rebuilt anyway.)

All the above was just to keep the front end alignment from deflecting so that your tires have the most contact patch and grip when corning!!!

The above should get you the maximum bang for your buck and get the car close to the stock 0.87-0.92G spec and maybe more.

After that...well, you're going to have to buck up! The stock 34mm (1.33inch-just over 1 and 1/4inch) front sway bar and 24mm (15/16" bar-so close to 1inch rear) rear sway bar will get the job done.

The spring rate usually stays the same, it's the spring load that changes over time. In that case, you can either keep the same springs or shim it with rubber shims at the top of the shims if the car is sagging in one corner. You can even do the Herb Adams cut 1/2 of the top coil trick to lower the car. In fact, that's what he recommends doing with V6 springs in his Chassis Engineering book. (But after reading that Guldstream vs. Adams shoot out, I'd just do it with whatever IROC or WS6 springs are in the car.) Personally I just left my springs stock. After 20 years they have set and I didn't have a load problem.

It's the Shocks that will set you back in bucks! Well, if you're planning to buy adjustable shocks. I personally use Tokico HP's (non adjustable) but some people go with Monroe, or QA1 or whatever. You're gonna have to do your own research there. Everyone has a preference. The factory used Bilstein in all their performance applications back in the day. And someone on the board I read that Bilstein just put labels on their regular shocks to indicate they were the high performance ones.

You will definitely notice the car hook with tubular LCA's especially if they have the spherical ends. And the adjustable pan hard rod helps too. I didn't want to spend the extra dough on the torque arm, so I just used polyurethane torque arm bushings.

But when it all comes down to it, the 4th gen F-body cars are better for auto crossing and road racing. The short arm long arm front suspension actually ADDS negative camber going into the corner, where the Macpherson strut suspension of 3rd gens don't. I think that's why Guldstrand mentioned in the Gulstrand vs. Adams third gen shoot out that he had to use a lot of negative camber. It eats tires during daily driving, but is great for making the car corner on the track!

 

lol yes I know Subframe connectors is an absolute must. I just ordered some for my z28.

btw whitedevilTA. do you have a bunch of vids on youtube...including the restoration of an 86TA...yours looks like the one in the vid and the setup is that same...if it is your vids I just wanna say Im very impressed with your restoration and looks like you've got a bunch of badass rides.

also guys I just found out it doesnt have the WS6 suspension. He says its got something similar but slightly better. Which is cool. Also has a lot of new interior parts including 145mph speedo, 2002 T/A seats, and couple more things. I'm pretty pumped about this ride. I am really hoping I can get the money I need out of my blazer in the spring.

also nelz. I actually ordered a set of those BFG G-Force Sport's (summer not all season) for my z and I am waiting on delivery haha got them for 108 a tire on tirerack.

also nova. for some reason I actually like that spoiler. I like the wrap around better but I dont dislike that one.

o and unpredictable I like how ur car sits. The reason I asked you how you evaluated the ls1's handling is because I can relate to that cause ive got one. It seems to handle well but I have never really cornered hard in it. I do like the steering though for sure! How would you say a 3rd gen t/a with the ws6 suspension(or a little better for that matter) would compare to the stock ls1 in handling feel? More or less body roll?

 

Thanks! Never been in a 3rd gen, with WS6 suspension. So I can't really tell ya how it handles. Although I have driven a T/A w/ the WS6 package and was fairly impressed for a stock car.

 

ok cool. well I am not seeing a lot of legit competition for the GTA honestly

 

i have been drifting/autocrossing my 91 bird for years. i have about 4000 dollars into it, and go to 4-six events a year. its an l03 t5 car with 36mm front 24mm rear bars, a new auburn posi, and centerforce clutch motor has got bolt ons, and exhaust koni yellows front and back.the tires are most important for autox. use ur stockers for driftin. i love my car, and it preforms well. im usually the only domestic. at drift events. i would go with a T5 instead of an auto, just much easier to drift. drifting in an auto can be done, but with no clutch, its hard to initiate the drift without spinning the car out. you dont need a modified car to do either just a limited slip diff.

 

true that man. Like I said I can get this GTA with a T5 for 3k maybe a little less by the time it rolls around. I love the style.

 

That Trans Am looks good. You should get it, and have some fun

 

SIGH...I went and looked at that GTA today...and I have bad news. Its in pretty bad shape.

Whats good:
Will have rebuilt 350TPI
Tranny seems ok, has hurst short throw(doesnt feel that short but feels notchy)
Rear is supposedly good
Interior is decent in some areas
140MPH Speedo
headlights work
t-tops that dont leak but looks like there has been black caulking around them before(they open and lock)
clutch is supposedly good
decent seats out of a 2002 firebird

Whats Bad:
Rear hatch is off a Z28(you were right it was z28 spoiler and I couldnt tell in pics) but it doesnt close all the way(it closes to where you cant open it but still has a gap) and the key doesnt open it
Needs linkage for hood latch
Needs headliner
Needs Hatch Fixed
Some rust is showing up
Front trim is cracked bad on passenger side and passenger fog light doesnt work
headlights sag(dont sit flush with the hood)
Needs shift **** and may need the shift handle repaired to be able to attach one
body has 226,000 miles
Needs tires(he claims the tires are bad and that causes bad handling)

Things that will be fixed by owner before I buy if I do:
Motor will be in and assembled
hatch may be fixed

The car is going on its 3rd motor. The factory was a 305TPI and the previous owner says he was driving home from down south when a semi next to him had a tire blowout which struck the oil pan. It got fixed on sight just enough to get home but somehow the something was out of place so the crank rubbed it or something which sheered a rod and ****ed the motor....this is exactly what I was just told swear to god.

I just get the feeling that this car is one of those cars that is impossible to get going correctly. I have some bad feelings what do you guys think?

 

did you buy it? i would pass personally. Sounds like a basket case

 

i'd offer him a stack, but for 3k it better be in better shape

 

That would be me! And the blue shelby GT was mine too but I just sold it 2 months ago to finish my trans am. I just want it done now really bad, so it was a tradeoff I was willing to make. All the other cars are freinds, and my bro's is the supercharged 07 GT. Thanks for the comliments as well. Car is almost done with paint so I'll have a new vid up soon.

My 86 was a WS6 car stock, and I also owned a 2000 Firehawk. Honestly, I think the LS1 car handled better, but then again, my 86 was around 22 or 23 years old at the time and I'm sure the suspension wasn't what it used to be. With all my new BMR stuff though I'm sure this will out handle any stock LS1 F body. Stock the WS6 3rd gens still handle very well for an old car. I think they were one of the best of thier time.

 

No sir I did not buy it. It will not be done untill spring. The motor will be in and he wants to hang onto it a little to enjoy his investment. He has a lot of money in the car and not a lot of luck haha.

I agree guys I really dont think I am going to buy it. I mean it could be a gorgeous car if I took the time and put the work in but I just think for the money I will be able to get a much better cantidate for my buy. I dont really think that it wouldn't be worth the buy if I only had to fix or put up with exactly what I stated above. But what I am afraid of is that it is going to end up being a money pit...and I just cant handle that right now.

As much as i kinda dont want to now...I am considering a GTP again. I mean they are great cars but I have this hatred for v6 front wheel drive cars. I mean the majority of them are just so mediocre...and I hate mediocrity. I like my cars to stand out! I like my cars to have style, or performance, or superior function...

 

Keep lookin for another thirdgen, there are a lot out there for really cheap. GTP's are cool, but every one ive seen out on the autox course with street tires had a tough time.

i beat them by over a second when my car was in F-stock with decent street tires. they would understeer a lot. with that much weight, and front wheel drive i think it would take a lot of mods to get them to handle as good as a thirdgen with good shocks,springs,and tires, and probably cost twice as much.

They are pretty quick in a straight line, ive been taken down by a few in a drag race. i smoke em off the line, but by the middle of third gear they fly by.

 

here is the thing...I am not going to by racing it that much. Im going for a stylish car...which GTP's aren't compared for a thirdgen in good shape. Plus FWD<RWD

Gtp is little better on has, a little more comfortable, and drivable in snow

3rd gen has RWD, style, slightly cheaper parts, better handling, more potential.


btw whitedevilTA. when your new vid hits pm me if you remember cause I might forget to check it out but id like to see it.

 

Will do! Paint guy said right after christmas It should be done so assume around then. But I should remember to PM you.

 

alright man good luck. Hopefully I can find me a nice T/A...any personal advice?

just got to thinking about this from something someone said...I dont remember who. I asked why f-bodies were always trashed and mustangs are still out and running. He said that mustangs tend to get better treatment from their owners....which just now sparked my interest. how do you guys think a v8 stang would be to drive everyday and maybe do a little auto-x with? And which would be best value for money?
5.0 fox
5.0 SN95
4.6 SN95(god these sound so badass)

 

the fox would be the best bet, but unless you swap in an lsx, i'll stop answering this thread, lol

 

haha well im not getting rid of my lsx for a mustang man so I havent sinned completely yet. I am simply considering having one for a daily driver. My lsx is my beast

Am I just going crazy right now? I mean I really love third gen f-bodies. I mean I would absolutly love to have one for my daily but after the terrible experience I had with my 91RS im just almost scared to buy another one. I am only really considering a stang over one because of how reliable I know they are. I have known tons of people with them and they take beating after beating...it seems like around here the only people that have 3rd gens are rednecks that mustered up the money to buy one and then when it broke even if it was small repair they never had the money to fix it so they just sit and rot in YARDS! It pisses me off. Why the **** do people park cars on grass? Thats just saying o can I get some free rusting? Thanks

 

they're as reliable as you make them. as are thirdgens

 

thats the point though. I dont exactly have the power to change the past of these cars and the thirdgens always get beat on more it seems. Once I own whatever it is I take great care of my cars but even with good upkeep the prior damage can still kill reliability. It just seems like mustang owners took better care of them in general.

I am liking the 95ish Impala ss's a lot the more I look at them but I wouldnt be able to park one on my campus hahaha damn small spaces

 

well when you realize that all cars in your price range are going to be be beat on pretty hard, get a thirdgen, fix the problem areas, and enjoy it

 

you know what man. you're right. thanks. now here is the new question. for a daily driver is it worth paying the extra money for a tpi350 over a 305? I know the numbers are pretty different and the 350 has more potential. the economy numbers arent that different right?

 

buy what you can afford that looks like it hasn't been beat on too hard. guys with factory l98 cars think they're golden and try to sell them for more than they're worth in my opinion. 350's aren't hard to come buy so you can always build something later if you do start with a 305.

do a quick search for my old posts and see some of the stuff i did on my old 305. though it was mostly drag oriented, i could see most of the engine stuff i did working just fine in an autox and daily driver environment

 

something someone said on another thread peaked my interest.

what would be some sporty imports that are cheap? Preferably turbo but doesnt have to be...would like ideas of things more reliable than DSM's I really like the turbo'd eclipses but they just aren't reliable at all. Especially the 1st gens

 

i don't know...i own a thirdgen, and i post on a thirdgen board...

 

haha well there are plenty of import guys on here I mean cmon man one guy suggested I get an eg civic...ew

o well lol. Sorry man but you have a million posts and I don't have ten hours sorting them to find you're 305 mods. haha

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...run-13s-n.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/orga...ts-see-me.html

that'll get you started

 

some timeslips, but it actually ended up going faster than this too:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/orga...-305-does.html