SCCA- ESP/SM car prep help needed
07-01-2001, 08:29 PM
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SCCA- ESP/SM car prep help needed
hi gang,
i was wondering if anyone could give me any advice on setting up a car to the limits of the SCCA street prepared class rules.
i am going to be building a car to compete in the Solo2 street modified class which uses the Street Prepared rules as it's basis.
i am also interested in any legal update/backdate swaps and weight saving tricks. i need the car to be as close to the legal weight minimum of 2700lbs.
thanks
tim
------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.209@95.46mph
Best 60' 1.917
Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder
My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299
DSI Racing Home Page
www.geocities.com/foff667
i was wondering if anyone could give me any advice on setting up a car to the limits of the SCCA street prepared class rules.
i am going to be building a car to compete in the Solo2 street modified class which uses the Street Prepared rules as it's basis.
i am also interested in any legal update/backdate swaps and weight saving tricks. i need the car to be as close to the legal weight minimum of 2700lbs.
thanks
tim
------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.209@95.46mph
Best 60' 1.917
Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder
My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299
DSI Racing Home Page
www.geocities.com/foff667
07-01-2001, 11:04 PM
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MY best advice is run a stick. Those m@#$tangs are hard to beat. Biggest tires allowed, widest track width you can get away with, rear disks are a must along with an adjustable proportioning vavle. My biggest problem was tight corners. Are you just going to autocross it or run a class? Big springs and sway bars also help.
07-02-2001, 03:34 AM
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Little history on me -
I used to have a '98 Camaro that I ran in FS and then stepped up to ESP. I've since moved on and taken a big hit off the go fast crack pipe and I'm currently road racing a '92 Z28 (http://para.noid.org)
#1 - Get a rule book. http://www.scca.org - and get one or better yet go to an event and pick one up. Read it. Learn it. Know it.
Good luck getting down to 3200lbs. My 92 is gutted, and with me in it a half a load of fuel, it weighs in at 3290. If you want to remove the cage, figure you'll be down in the 3140 range. The's no way you'll get down to 2700 in race trim (eg - with driver).
A 3rd gen is probably not going to be the best SM car. The 4th gen cars have better suspension, more suspension parts available, more proven combos, and make WAAAaaay more power than a 3rd gen is going to be able to make in SM form.
Spring rates and what not you are going to have to figure out - I'd think you'll bei n the 950 - 1000lbs range for the fronts, and in the 100 - 120'ish for the rear. Koni double adjustable shocks all around. You can use the off the shelf ones that fit a 4th gen for the rear. For the fronts, get a set of single adjustables and send 'em off to Koni. For about $200'ish per shock they'll make them into doubles.
Rest of the suspension setup (roughly):
Traclink
Spherical bearing LCA's
Rod ended PHR
T2R diff
Proabably 3.73's.
Tires wise - 17 x 11" with 315 or 335 Hoosiers
12" brakes w/ 2 piston PBR's are probably best. Going to 13" rotors w/ 4pistons is overkill for autox.
Motor (for street mod): 355, SR, long tubes, etc. Figurey ou'll need to upt about 360'ish at the rear wheels down to be competitive. You'll need a WCT-5, as a non WC tranny won't live. The T5 will probably get chewed up pretty quickly as well. I've seen folks do this w/ auto's, but a stick is abetter trans for autox (IMHO).
For Street Prepared - Swap a stock 350 in, stuff a Super Ram on (intake is free), some long tubes, underdrive pulleys and that's about the extent of the mods you can do with it. YOu'll be severely outhorspowered by the LT1 and LS1 cars.
Update backdate says that you can swap any compoents around between years of cars as long as they are from the same line / generation. That means anything from an 82 to 92 F-body wehther it be 'bird, TA or Camaro is legit. You can't put a T56 in, sorry.
Drop me a note off line if you want to talk about this in depth more. snicko@noid.org
- N
I used to have a '98 Camaro that I ran in FS and then stepped up to ESP. I've since moved on and taken a big hit off the go fast crack pipe and I'm currently road racing a '92 Z28 (http://para.noid.org)
#1 - Get a rule book. http://www.scca.org - and get one or better yet go to an event and pick one up. Read it. Learn it. Know it.
Good luck getting down to 3200lbs. My 92 is gutted, and with me in it a half a load of fuel, it weighs in at 3290. If you want to remove the cage, figure you'll be down in the 3140 range. The's no way you'll get down to 2700 in race trim (eg - with driver).
A 3rd gen is probably not going to be the best SM car. The 4th gen cars have better suspension, more suspension parts available, more proven combos, and make WAAAaaay more power than a 3rd gen is going to be able to make in SM form.
Spring rates and what not you are going to have to figure out - I'd think you'll bei n the 950 - 1000lbs range for the fronts, and in the 100 - 120'ish for the rear. Koni double adjustable shocks all around. You can use the off the shelf ones that fit a 4th gen for the rear. For the fronts, get a set of single adjustables and send 'em off to Koni. For about $200'ish per shock they'll make them into doubles.
Rest of the suspension setup (roughly):
Traclink
Spherical bearing LCA's
Rod ended PHR
T2R diff
Proabably 3.73's.
Tires wise - 17 x 11" with 315 or 335 Hoosiers
12" brakes w/ 2 piston PBR's are probably best. Going to 13" rotors w/ 4pistons is overkill for autox.
Motor (for street mod): 355, SR, long tubes, etc. Figurey ou'll need to upt about 360'ish at the rear wheels down to be competitive. You'll need a WCT-5, as a non WC tranny won't live. The T5 will probably get chewed up pretty quickly as well. I've seen folks do this w/ auto's, but a stick is abetter trans for autox (IMHO).
For Street Prepared - Swap a stock 350 in, stuff a Super Ram on (intake is free), some long tubes, underdrive pulleys and that's about the extent of the mods you can do with it. YOu'll be severely outhorspowered by the LT1 and LS1 cars.
Update backdate says that you can swap any compoents around between years of cars as long as they are from the same line / generation. That means anything from an 82 to 92 F-body wehther it be 'bird, TA or Camaro is legit. You can't put a T56 in, sorry.
Drop me a note off line if you want to talk about this in depth more. snicko@noid.org
- N
07-02-2001, 04:39 PM
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Well, there is the fiberglass hood from 83-84 z28's. I bought one, its lighter than the steel hood, and it's legal. Remove A/C and back seat (about 150 lbs). Your best bet is to go to the SCCA site and check the rules and work from there...
07-02-2001, 05:16 PM
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A 3rd-gen car will start with an inherent weight advantage, especially if you start with a pre-86 car. I think SM allows different hoods, so the year isn't so important there. If they don't, 82-84 Z28 hoods were fiberglass. 2700lbs will be impossible with road going trim, my CP car is 2650 and it is really just a shell with a cage. Get what you can.
With all F-bodies, negative camber is key, so whether you have a 4th-gen, or 3rd, get some. It's easier on the 3rd-gen cars, ground control makes upper strut bearings that have 4 camber/caster positions. 4th-gen cars have to use lower front control arms that have adjustable rod-ends to get it. I know SM allows replacement control arms, so use them. If you lower the front too much, the front control arm angles make the front roll-conter way too low, and you might consider taller springs and dropped spindles. That should get you the height you desire, and the geometry you need.
Use 315/35s all around, 335 out back if you need it.. You're allowed to trim the fenders for fit, and SM will need all the tire it can get. However, remember that 315s have REALLY short sidewalls and some compliance will be necessary to make the car predictable. A darty car is not a fast car, unless you're Michael Schumacher. Don't over-do the spring stiffness.
Konis should do the job, just don't set the rear ones anywhere but soft. SA Konis adjust the rebound, not the compression, and you DO want the rear tires down on the ground.
SM allows just about anything in the motor department, but don't over-do it here either. You still have DOT tires, and they aren't slicks. Instead of peak power, go for the broadest power range you can get. Take advantage of the roller valvetrain and use a higher-lift, yet a short duration camshaft. You can also go up to 6.0L displacement. A 383 stroker crank is well within that. A FAT mid-range powerband will beat peak power anyday in an autocross.
Tranny is really a personal preference. I use an Auto, others use sticks. If the powerband is broad enough, it won't matter much. If you go with an automatic, don't use a high stall converter. Coming out of turns, they "shock" the rear tires when they flash and you'll know that merry-go-round sensation real well. I use a 2400rpm one.
SM is quite liberal in most aspects, the real limting factor in any SM car will be the tires. It's too easy to overstiffen the suspension, and overpower the drivetrain. Doing that will just make an unpredictable car that will be capable of much more, but not on a parking lot....
With all F-bodies, negative camber is key, so whether you have a 4th-gen, or 3rd, get some. It's easier on the 3rd-gen cars, ground control makes upper strut bearings that have 4 camber/caster positions. 4th-gen cars have to use lower front control arms that have adjustable rod-ends to get it. I know SM allows replacement control arms, so use them. If you lower the front too much, the front control arm angles make the front roll-conter way too low, and you might consider taller springs and dropped spindles. That should get you the height you desire, and the geometry you need.
Use 315/35s all around, 335 out back if you need it.. You're allowed to trim the fenders for fit, and SM will need all the tire it can get. However, remember that 315s have REALLY short sidewalls and some compliance will be necessary to make the car predictable. A darty car is not a fast car, unless you're Michael Schumacher. Don't over-do the spring stiffness.
Konis should do the job, just don't set the rear ones anywhere but soft. SA Konis adjust the rebound, not the compression, and you DO want the rear tires down on the ground.
SM allows just about anything in the motor department, but don't over-do it here either. You still have DOT tires, and they aren't slicks. Instead of peak power, go for the broadest power range you can get. Take advantage of the roller valvetrain and use a higher-lift, yet a short duration camshaft. You can also go up to 6.0L displacement. A 383 stroker crank is well within that. A FAT mid-range powerband will beat peak power anyday in an autocross.
Tranny is really a personal preference. I use an Auto, others use sticks. If the powerband is broad enough, it won't matter much. If you go with an automatic, don't use a high stall converter. Coming out of turns, they "shock" the rear tires when they flash and you'll know that merry-go-round sensation real well. I use a 2400rpm one.
SM is quite liberal in most aspects, the real limting factor in any SM car will be the tires. It's too easy to overstiffen the suspension, and overpower the drivetrain. Doing that will just make an unpredictable car that will be capable of much more, but not on a parking lot....
07-02-2001, 07:30 PM
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let me tell you guys what i have in mind and maybe you can give me some more direction.
Brakes= Baer trak, 13in rotors(i have these from the car i use for drag now) and 12 inch rears. all 2 piece rotors w/ aluminum hats.
Body Work= SM allows for any replacement front clip that retains all the factory inner fenders and mounting, i am gonna get a fiberglass clip and hood, i am also gonna do the ol' update/backdate with a notch back hatch from a firebird(this is legal as they are listed on the same line in the rule book
) all power "options" will also be eliminated from the car as follows the update/backdate rules(manual windows, locks, hatch release, a/c delete.....). Rear seats and seat belts will be removed as allowed in the SM class rules as well as replacing the front seats with solid mounted non adjustable racing buckets.
Drive Train= a supercharged 3800 series V6(under 4.0Liters you are alloweed to pressure feed the motor) out of a grand prix, mildly modded these motors can make 325+ very reliable HP and maintain a very broad torque band. Tranny is gonna be a manual, not sure if it will be a 5 or 6 spd, that will be a budget based decision. Rear will likely be the factory 10bolt with a proseries diff and 3.73's(the gears should be safe since the V6 can spin to 6500rpm easily)
Chassis and Suspension= subframe connectors ( DUH!) tubular chromoly control arms, torque arm, and panhard rod w/chromoly rod ends and w/ control arm relocator brackets. WS6 sway bars, poly bushings, tubular chromoly front a-arms with rod ends. Relocate Battery to the hatch and run an NHRA legal kill switch. Coil over all around(i have already got the design for the shocks and the brackets set up , i just hafta make them)
2700lbs is the class minimum weight, and i do believe with rules this liberal i can get it there. the only other mod i am definately gonna do is to install a 1LE baffled gas tank to allow me to run a bit less fuel and still keep the pick up wet.
and of course my favorite line in the SP rules, " fasteners are free "
i am gonna talk to a racing friend at the local hard ware store and see how many aluminum screws i cna find to replace the stock steel ones
thanks for all your help guys.
lata
tim
------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.209@95.46mph
Best 60' 1.917
Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder
My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299
DSI Racing Home Page
www.geocities.com/foff667
Brakes= Baer trak, 13in rotors(i have these from the car i use for drag now) and 12 inch rears. all 2 piece rotors w/ aluminum hats.
Body Work= SM allows for any replacement front clip that retains all the factory inner fenders and mounting, i am gonna get a fiberglass clip and hood, i am also gonna do the ol' update/backdate with a notch back hatch from a firebird(this is legal as they are listed on the same line in the rule book
) all power "options" will also be eliminated from the car as follows the update/backdate rules(manual windows, locks, hatch release, a/c delete.....). Rear seats and seat belts will be removed as allowed in the SM class rules as well as replacing the front seats with solid mounted non adjustable racing buckets.Drive Train= a supercharged 3800 series V6(under 4.0Liters you are alloweed to pressure feed the motor
) out of a grand prix, mildly modded these motors can make 325+ very reliable HP and maintain a very broad torque band. Tranny is gonna be a manual, not sure if it will be a 5 or 6 spd, that will be a budget based decision. Rear will likely be the factory 10bolt with a proseries diff and 3.73's(the gears should be safe since the V6 can spin to 6500rpm easily)Chassis and Suspension= subframe connectors ( DUH!) tubular chromoly control arms, torque arm, and panhard rod w/chromoly rod ends and w/ control arm relocator brackets. WS6 sway bars, poly bushings, tubular chromoly front a-arms with rod ends. Relocate Battery to the hatch and run an NHRA legal kill switch. Coil over all around(i have already got the design for the shocks and the brackets set up , i just hafta make them)
2700lbs is the class minimum weight, and i do believe with rules this liberal i can get it there. the only other mod i am definately gonna do is to install a 1LE baffled gas tank to allow me to run a bit less fuel and still keep the pick up wet.
and of course my favorite line in the SP rules, " fasteners are free "
i am gonna talk to a racing friend at the local hard ware store and see how many aluminum screws i cna find to replace the stock steel ones
thanks for all your help guys.
lata
tim
------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.209@95.46mph
Best 60' 1.917
Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder
My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299
DSI Racing Home Page
www.geocities.com/foff667
07-03-2001, 05:15 PM
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Better watch the "notchback" hatch.. Firebirds didn't come with them from the factory, so the SP update/backdate doesn't apply there. Make sure SM specifically allows this.
Why remove a 3800 from a FWD car, re-engineer it to be RWD, use a stock GM blower, When you can use a RWD Buick V6 in the first place and use a Vortech, or another 'underhood' blower? There's already plenty of performance stuff available for both V6s, and the the blowers are bolt-on. I'm pretty sure the people running the G/N Regals know a LOT about pressurized Buick V6's.
Just make sure that the V6 with a blower doesn't outweigh a 350/383 V8. If it does, or is even close, the gain is lost.
The Auburn pro-series will slip. If not right away, soon. A Torsen 2R or a Powertrax would be more reliable.
Gear the car so it will run the fastest speed on course at the top RPM in the gear you want to run it in. This will minimize shifting, which costs more time than most think it does.
For example, I run an automatic and I want to run 75-80 at the top of 2nd gear, which is also at 7500 RPM for me. With my tires, that means about 4.30:1 rear gear.
Also, since fuel cells are legal in SP, they are in SM too. (just in case a 1LE fuel tank proves hard to come by).
I think with the front coil-overs, and the DOT tires/wheels, you'll be OK, My tires would rub the springs on them unless I used less backspacing, and my tires stick out enough thank you... Just watch those coil-over front kits... Most were made for weight reduction on drag cars, and may not take the punishment that autocrossing will provide.
Just so you know, the rear axle is considered suspension in SM, so feel free to replace the crap 10-bolt with a more reliable unit. You probably won't break it as easily as we do with slicks, but a SM car is more than capable of Prepared-class power.
I still think you won't get to 2700, but hey, getting as close as possible still helps..
CPCamaro
Why remove a 3800 from a FWD car, re-engineer it to be RWD, use a stock GM blower, When you can use a RWD Buick V6 in the first place and use a Vortech, or another 'underhood' blower? There's already plenty of performance stuff available for both V6s, and the the blowers are bolt-on. I'm pretty sure the people running the G/N Regals know a LOT about pressurized Buick V6's.
Just make sure that the V6 with a blower doesn't outweigh a 350/383 V8. If it does, or is even close, the gain is lost.
The Auburn pro-series will slip. If not right away, soon. A Torsen 2R or a Powertrax would be more reliable.
Gear the car so it will run the fastest speed on course at the top RPM in the gear you want to run it in. This will minimize shifting, which costs more time than most think it does.
For example, I run an automatic and I want to run 75-80 at the top of 2nd gear, which is also at 7500 RPM for me. With my tires, that means about 4.30:1 rear gear.
Also, since fuel cells are legal in SP, they are in SM too. (just in case a 1LE fuel tank proves hard to come by).
I think with the front coil-overs, and the DOT tires/wheels, you'll be OK, My tires would rub the springs on them unless I used less backspacing, and my tires stick out enough thank you... Just watch those coil-over front kits... Most were made for weight reduction on drag cars, and may not take the punishment that autocrossing will provide.
Just so you know, the rear axle is considered suspension in SM, so feel free to replace the crap 10-bolt with a more reliable unit. You probably won't break it as easily as we do with slicks, but a SM car is more than capable of Prepared-class power.
I still think you won't get to 2700, but hey, getting as close as possible still helps..
CPCamaro
Trending Topics
07-07-2001, 09:56 AM
#8
don't forget the most important thing in auto-x. learn how to drive !! ;-)
I've been driving FS for 3 years, and only recently have I gotten within 1.8 seconds of national drivers.
Now I spend my money on driving school
------------------
89 Formula
96 Impala SS
I've been driving FS for 3 years, and only recently have I gotten within 1.8 seconds of national drivers.
Now I spend my money on driving school
------------------
89 Formula
96 Impala SS
07-10-2001, 08:42 PM
#9
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well put, you cant argue w/ learning the course, the car, and driving it to its max. i hopw to take some sort of driving school someday too.
ps. lexan t-tops. (if a ttop car, which i guess would not be desirable for what ur doing)
would lexan windows be legal?
ps. lexan t-tops. (if a ttop car, which i guess would not be desirable for what ur doing)
would lexan windows be legal?
07-11-2001, 10:09 AM
#10
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no lexan windows, but i cna run withthe t-tops off if the car has them. i am looking at a coouple of hard top cars because of chassis stiffness and weight issues.
lata
tim
------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.209@95.46mph
Best 60' 1.917
Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder
My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299
DSI Racing Home Page
www.geocities.com/foff667
lata
tim
------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.209@95.46mph
Best 60' 1.917
Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder
My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299
DSI Racing Home Page
www.geocities.com/foff667
07-12-2001, 12:52 PM
#11
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Car: 87 T/A
Engine: TPI 350 ci
Transmission: 5 speed
Hey Tim
I may have a line on a hardtop Firebird that was run in the Camaro-Mustang Challenge in the NASA group. It has a blown engine, but its caged and gutted.
Let me know if you'd be interested.
Glad to see you're still pursuing this endeavor. I'm headed to Watkins Glen this weekend to crew for Tiger Racing. An SCCA NED race weekend. Should be a blast.
later, Mike
I may have a line on a hardtop Firebird that was run in the Camaro-Mustang Challenge in the NASA group. It has a blown engine, but its caged and gutted.
Let me know if you'd be interested.
Glad to see you're still pursuing this endeavor. I'm headed to Watkins Glen this weekend to crew for Tiger Racing. An SCCA NED race weekend. Should be a blast.
later, Mike
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