Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
07-22-2010, 07:30 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
.... and can it be done on the cheap? I picked up an '84 Anniversary Trans Am not too long ago, and although I came close to selling it, the idea now is to make it a TTA clone for next year's TTA event being hosted by Jim (phillyturbosix), and I already have the drivetrain. But right now, I'm really looking forward to getting back to basics, and returning to our Hot Rodding roots. The Trans Am came equipped with a high mileage L69, auto, and posi rear w/3.73's out back. I don't expect any of it to hold with the amount of boost I plan on throwing at it, but that doesn't matter to me, I just want one nine second ET, and if I can't get that (cuz I'll only be foot braking it off the line), then I'll settle for a nine second trap. Every single thing will be documented along the way, and everything will be on the cheap. The only place a decent amount of money will be spent on is the carburetor, and the T-88 turbo itself, but everything else, ebay. Cylinder heads are first they're coming off and getting ported, pics of everything (before and after) will be put up. This is just to see what she can do with what she already has, and this is what I'm starting with;
will it be probable or reliable? NO.
will it be expensive beyond belief? YES.
dont even bother, if you're going to do a buildup, toss the 305 in the garbage.
07-22-2010, 09:42 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
Getting the 305ci to do 9s is half the battle. The cage, rear end, and trans is what will cost.
Full port on the heads, a victor JR, 650 DP, and 240ish duration for the top end.
A 76mm or bigger with a 200 shot of N20. A 88mm is way bigger than you need and will have too much difficulty spooling it.
Launch that thing off the transbrake at about 5000 RPM with a good hook and you got 9s.
It may seem like a lot, but that is reality. Like you said you only want one 9sec pass.
EDIT: As you know the rear w/ 3.73 is way too much and you will over rev and grenade it. The 305ci footbrake and 9s is a joke, right? If you do it right in terms of the turbo, you can build a Borg Warner 88mm inducer and race cover for under $1000 with the latest HP88 wheel.
Full port on the heads, a victor JR, 650 DP, and 240ish duration for the top end.
A 76mm or bigger with a 200 shot of N20. A 88mm is way bigger than you need and will have too much difficulty spooling it.
Launch that thing off the transbrake at about 5000 RPM with a good hook and you got 9s.
It may seem like a lot, but that is reality. Like you said you only want one 9sec pass.
EDIT: As you know the rear w/ 3.73 is way too much and you will over rev and grenade it. The 305ci footbrake and 9s is a joke, right? If you do it right in terms of the turbo, you can build a Borg Warner 88mm inducer and race cover for under $1000 with the latest HP88 wheel.
Last edited by junkcltr; 07-22-2010 at 09:56 PM.
07-22-2010, 10:36 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
Subscribing! And good luck. I'll be following this thread hardcore.
07-22-2010, 10:44 PM
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Car: 1989 Formula,1991 z28
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
it will never happen, it hasnt happened yet...
isnt ever going to happen.
this topic comes up weekly if not more, and its nothing but pipedreams, always has been, always will be.
TO the OP, dont waste your time or money.
if your going to do a dedicated buildup, do it RIGHT the first time.
isnt ever going to happen.
this topic comes up weekly if not more, and its nothing but pipedreams, always has been, always will be.
TO the OP, dont waste your time or money.
if your going to do a dedicated buildup, do it RIGHT the first time.
07-22-2010, 10:53 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
please please dont turn it into a tta clone
use anything else for that thats a 15th dude id take that over a real tta if you wanna sell it im interested but ill trade you cars rite now!!! chop up my iroc my truck anything but a 15th
but as faras making it a 9 second 305..............hell the ****yes!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT WOULD BE AWSOME!!
use anything else for that thats a 15th dude id take that over a real tta if you wanna sell it im interested but ill trade you cars rite now!!! chop up my iroc my truck anything but a 15thbut as faras making it a 9 second 305..............hell the ****yes!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT WOULD BE AWSOME!!
Last edited by slowmaro87; 07-22-2010 at 11:31 PM.
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07-22-2010, 10:57 PM
#8
Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
I say go for it. This is the exact same thing I want to try, I just need to find me a good 305 donor car and time to do it all. 
Junkyard 350 went DEEP into the 9's and over 730whp. I think a 305 should beable to get in the 600's and crack 9's. It only takes 640-650 ish whp and can be done on the footbrake. Will likely need race gas tho
An 88mm is abit overkill however. MP T76 would be the perfect budgetary turbo to try for it. Should support 650whp on race gas
May need to foot brake it as best you can, since I dont think the stock rear will hold a transbrake launch on boost. I havent tested my rear yet, and its held many 140 mph trap runs so lots of power went thru it, but I dont leave with boost either.
Junkyard 350 went DEEP into the 9's and over 730whp. I think a 305 should beable to get in the 600's and crack 9's. It only takes 640-650 ish whp and can be done on the footbrake. Will likely need race gas tho
An 88mm is abit overkill however. MP T76 would be the perfect budgetary turbo to try for it. Should support 650whp on race gas
May need to foot brake it as best you can, since I dont think the stock rear will hold a transbrake launch on boost. I havent tested my rear yet, and its held many 140 mph trap runs so lots of power went thru it, but I dont leave with boost either.
07-23-2010, 12:36 AM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
Subscribing....
Lets see it done...
I have had NA 305s deep in 11s in a S10
Lets see it done...
I have had NA 305s deep in 11s in a S10
07-23-2010, 03:15 AM
#11
Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
Can it be done... sure... I have plans and a good part of it together in my '87 TA right now, if other **** would just stop blowing up so I could get some time to work on it maybe I'll beat you to it (I've had 2 things break on my DD '97 WS6, my lawnmower just kicked the bucket and the DRO on my mill just barfed, all this week, not counting normal daily and work BS and house ****...). I need to go back to playing with cars for a living... this real day job BS is for the birds...
I want to use a set of factory 305 heads slightly cleaned up, but at this rate if I don't find more time to just rebuild them, install some screw in studs/guideplates... I'm getting ready to just buy something since I just can't find the time to even finish tearing them down.
No idea why you'd want something as big as a T88, it will be big and laggy, and I don't particularly like the idea of a blow through carb, but it could be made to work. I don't think that you really need the spray suggested to get it to do it, but it might be easier that way and it would spool your T88 if you really go that way. You are going to make some choices concerning if you want to do something like the spray and keep the rpm down or spin it up some and keep the cylinder pressure down. I'm personally planning on winding it a bit tight since I feel the alternative, excessive low rpm cylinder pressure is going to be more difficult to manage with stockish parts, but there are people (some in this thread) that disagree with me.
OTOH, I do have a 15lb bottle sitting in the garage that I have no qualms about throwing at the car if I need it to get it done. N2O does make a decent intercooler...
I want to use a set of factory 305 heads slightly cleaned up, but at this rate if I don't find more time to just rebuild them, install some screw in studs/guideplates... I'm getting ready to just buy something since I just can't find the time to even finish tearing them down.
No idea why you'd want something as big as a T88, it will be big and laggy, and I don't particularly like the idea of a blow through carb, but it could be made to work. I don't think that you really need the spray suggested to get it to do it, but it might be easier that way and it would spool your T88 if you really go that way. You are going to make some choices concerning if you want to do something like the spray and keep the rpm down or spin it up some and keep the cylinder pressure down. I'm personally planning on winding it a bit tight since I feel the alternative, excessive low rpm cylinder pressure is going to be more difficult to manage with stockish parts, but there are people (some in this thread) that disagree with me.
OTOH, I do have a 15lb bottle sitting in the garage that I have no qualms about throwing at the car if I need it to get it done. N2O does make a decent intercooler...
07-23-2010, 12:42 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
Get er done. I wanna see this thing run
07-23-2010, 04:21 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
This is an awesome idea, it's the kind of stuff I like my self. Trying to do most you can with the least investment. Just as a side note I don't get why people invest so much into something they are going to beat the crap out of like we do our toy cars. If it's a daily driver it makes sense you need a high mileage reliable setup. But a toy car you bought for 500$?
Now to measure the stroke can't you simply measure how far the top of the piston travels? So you don't have to pull the motor.
Now to measure the stroke can't you simply measure how far the top of the piston travels? So you don't have to pull the motor.
07-24-2010, 03:31 PM
#21
Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
Can't WAIT to see where this goes. Get yourself a nice steep Summit cam kit, a good DP carb or an EFI setup with some big injectors and go to town. I'd put a lot of work into the exhaust ports, that is where you're going to make money on the 305 heads. The intakes are bad, but the exhausts are horribly weak on them. If you're going to build a trans up for the LC2 I'd stick it behind this engine with an adapter or use a dual pattern bell housing that way you don't suffer from a flawed powertrain. Same for the axle if you can dig a D44 or a 9" or an 8.5 up go for it. Sell your 3.73 axle while it's still whole to make 9s you'd be better off with 3.23s or 3.0s. Not to mention the gear contact patch is bigger which increases your chances of the axle living with the abuse. The 3.8 is going to need something stout anyways even with a fairly basic combo these days. I also wouldn't skimp on the intercooler of you do one too a nice front mount will work well with the new engine too.
If I stop hitting road blocks I'm doing a pair of GN turbos on a 305 to see what she does. LB9/garage port heads/204/214 cam/2 GN turbos. I don't think she'll run 9s but I bet she moves well enough. Right now I'm thinking 400 at the wheels or bust. If I have to throw race gas or alky on top to make it happen so be it. MK-II is sitting on the stand waiting for its chance, I'm going to have less than 200 bucks into the long block so let er rip. With the short block and an L98 vette cam I have 70 bucks into the whole short block atm. The rest is going to be valve springs, valve guide seals and gaskets. With L03 dished pistons and a set of L05 heads the compression ratio should be fairly low. I am going to be interested to see how what most people consider "the junkiest of the junk" (305/L05 heads) works out.
The 5.0 Mustang guys routinely get their engines to make 9 second passes without that much work in a lot of cases even though they have a weight advantage why not a 305? At least deep into the 10s. The question is will the bore hold back the engine enough with boost to make a difference? Sure the 5.0 guys have a 4.0" bore but you also have to remember that most Windsor heads that are OEM come with 1.84 valves not 1.94s.
If I stop hitting road blocks I'm doing a pair of GN turbos on a 305 to see what she does. LB9/garage port heads/204/214 cam/2 GN turbos. I don't think she'll run 9s but I bet she moves well enough. Right now I'm thinking 400 at the wheels or bust. If I have to throw race gas or alky on top to make it happen so be it. MK-II is sitting on the stand waiting for its chance, I'm going to have less than 200 bucks into the long block so let er rip. With the short block and an L98 vette cam I have 70 bucks into the whole short block atm. The rest is going to be valve springs, valve guide seals and gaskets. With L03 dished pistons and a set of L05 heads the compression ratio should be fairly low. I am going to be interested to see how what most people consider "the junkiest of the junk" (305/L05 heads) works out.
The 5.0 Mustang guys routinely get their engines to make 9 second passes without that much work in a lot of cases even though they have a weight advantage why not a 305? At least deep into the 10s. The question is will the bore hold back the engine enough with boost to make a difference? Sure the 5.0 guys have a 4.0" bore but you also have to remember that most Windsor heads that are OEM come with 1.84 valves not 1.94s.
07-24-2010, 07:06 PM
#23
Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
I'd get the cam on a bit wider lsa to keep overlap down some. You dont need or want too much. I'd do twin GN's for now if you can.
That T88 is pretty big. My buddy used a T88 on his 4.8 liter lsx motor and it was impressive but he rev that thing over 7000 rpm and made 700whp. Doing that on a stock 80's 305 is asking for major problems
Looking at Garrets 88mm map, a 5500 rpm hp peak 305 would be in the sweet spot around 700 hp on 19-20 psi. Those are the kind of numbers to get into the 9's on the right setup, but it will be abit laggy if the turbine isnt sized right.
My buddy's 4.8 didnt spool it very quickly until higher rpms. It wasnt an import type dyno graph where it comes on like a switch and has a 1000 rpm power window, but it certainly isnt like a typical smaller turo large V8 power curve either.
That T88 is pretty big. My buddy used a T88 on his 4.8 liter lsx motor and it was impressive but he rev that thing over 7000 rpm and made 700whp. Doing that on a stock 80's 305 is asking for major problems
Looking at Garrets 88mm map, a 5500 rpm hp peak 305 would be in the sweet spot around 700 hp on 19-20 psi. Those are the kind of numbers to get into the 9's on the right setup, but it will be abit laggy if the turbine isnt sized right.
My buddy's 4.8 didnt spool it very quickly until higher rpms. It wasnt an import type dyno graph where it comes on like a switch and has a 1000 rpm power window, but it certainly isnt like a typical smaller turo large V8 power curve either.
07-24-2010, 07:56 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
That is exactly what I was thinking about doing, running two stock Grand National turbo's instead of the T-88, but I'm leaning more toward the single turbo though just to make the build get done quicker, so I can get it dynoed and bring it to the track asap. I'd like to put what people constantly talk about in terms of the 305 to the test....
For one, we're definitely going to see what the little anemic engine can do because believe me when I tell you I am not holding back the boost, so we shall see if they are less prone to detonation lol. Two, I'll be using the single turbo header setup from ebay, and I'll show everyone where they need to be modded, and we'll also see if they will hold without cracking. Three, I'll be running the cam from that Engine Masters buildup when they put together that 305 and made excellent numbers with it, the XE268H-10, and we'll all see if that article was the real deal, or just fluff. Overlap is @ 54º with that cam, but it isn't really too bad in terms of boost. I have a few other parts on the shelf that are being used for this buildup to help keep the cost down as well. Trying to get it done as quickly as possible, the bowls are almost finished, this engine is going to have no issues with flow whatsoever, pics of the work will be up soon....
For one, we're definitely going to see what the little anemic engine can do because believe me when I tell you I am not holding back the boost, so we shall see if they are less prone to detonation lol. Two, I'll be using the single turbo header setup from ebay, and I'll show everyone where they need to be modded, and we'll also see if they will hold without cracking. Three, I'll be running the cam from that Engine Masters buildup when they put together that 305 and made excellent numbers with it, the XE268H-10, and we'll all see if that article was the real deal, or just fluff. Overlap is @ 54º with that cam, but it isn't really too bad in terms of boost. I have a few other parts on the shelf that are being used for this buildup to help keep the cost down as well. Trying to get it done as quickly as possible, the bowls are almost finished, this engine is going to have no issues with flow whatsoever, pics of the work will be up soon....
1. Is there a different quench that optimizes turbo cars?
2. Are you going to be using an electronic or manual boost controller?
3. Intercooler?
4. You are using LB9 heads (right?)
5. Why not use something with a bigger chamber? Are you going to use a thicker gasket or just do some chamber work?
07-24-2010, 09:33 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
The biggest concern is detonation, so most turbo guys try to eliminate lean air/fuel ratio pockets by increasing the quench. This also allows for less timing. I'm mainly just smoothing the combustion chamber out, getting rid of the jagged edges, then polishing....
I gotta go with a manual boost controller for the time being. If everything works out, and the engine lives, I'll definitely switch over to both fuel injection and an electronic boost controller....
Definitely, but the IC will be an ebay special, a very cheap one. I might go w/alky too...
I'm actually using the heads that came off of the stock '84 engine, #14014416....
The L69's came with 9:5.1 compression, I was going to run a thicker head gasket to lower compression down to 9:0.1, but when I pulled the heads off I seen that someone had dished pistons installed. After the chamber work, I'm going to try and get it down to 8:5.1....
I gotta go with a manual boost controller for the time being. If everything works out, and the engine lives, I'll definitely switch over to both fuel injection and an electronic boost controller....
Definitely, but the IC will be an ebay special, a very cheap one. I might go w/alky too...
I'm actually using the heads that came off of the stock '84 engine, #14014416....
The L69's came with 9:5.1 compression, I was going to run a thicker head gasket to lower compression down to 9:0.1, but when I pulled the heads off I seen that someone had dished pistons installed. After the chamber work, I'm going to try and get it down to 8:5.1....
07-25-2010, 11:05 AM
#28
Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
I would probably go with a T76 instead of the 88 unless you have it there. A T76 is more than capable of a single digit pass. Hell some have done it on a T70 even though I wouldn't think it'd be a good idea. By the way I wouldn't do a Turbo T/A clone if I was you on a car like that, I'd swap in the LC2 and restore it back. It would be something totally unique at that point.
07-25-2010, 03:56 PM
#30
Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
"will it be expensive beyond belief? YES."
"Haha, we'll see...."
Unless you get a lot of parts and work for free expect to spend some money.
That includes getting the power to the ground.
"Haha, we'll see...."
Unless you get a lot of parts and work for free expect to spend some money.
That includes getting the power to the ground.
07-25-2010, 09:35 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
Get the number off the back of the motor behind the drivier side head and we can tell ya more info on what it is
07-27-2010, 12:05 AM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
Looking good. I hope you get it in the 9s. You have the ambition to do it. What are you going to weld the EGR ports with?
07-27-2010, 02:26 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
I don't think I would do that if it was mine. I would used nickel rod. Better make sure it is a good job because if that T88 (expensive) chews up a TW and housing it is going to cost dearly.
Is it really worth it? Are you worried those holes will have a bad AFR because of the EGR port? A poor AFR distribution or lifted head is probably the only thing that will make it come apart assuming all else is in decent shape.
Is it really worth it? Are you worried those holes will have a bad AFR because of the EGR port? A poor AFR distribution or lifted head is probably the only thing that will make it come apart assuming all else is in decent shape.
07-27-2010, 03:12 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
07-28-2010, 09:30 AM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
I'm honestly more concerned with flow, as I'd like to make as little compromises as possible. Welding the EGR ports in the bowl will eliminate unnecessary turbulence, and should help the turbo spool all the more faster. I brazed a set of cast exhaust manifolds with bronze last year, and we put a torch to the welds along with a digital temp gun. Heated them up to close to 1500-degrees (didn't need to because its the EGT's that get that hot, and not necessarily the manifolds, although in extreme boosted conditions the manifolds will reach those temps), and the bronze welds didn't budge, it was very impressive. It's a delicate situation though welding under the valve, my biggest concern is the cylinder head cracking while I'm welding, but once it gets filled, I'm confident the bronze filler won't budge. Slowmaro, I posted the engine ID numbers found on that pad a few posts up, but I couldn't find anything when I searched them though. I started on the intake manifold, pics will be up soon....
I see 10s possible without the N2O, but not 9s. As you know you will be running high cyl PSI due to the 20+ PSI of boost and the heads will be stressed severely. Much more than a 1500* heat & cool.
Either way, keep up the good work. It looks great.
EDIT: Why do all the port work first when you know of the possibility of the head cracking? Could be a lot of wasted time. You should be fine with the proper pre-heat and post-cool.
Last edited by junkcltr; 07-28-2010 at 09:34 AM.
07-28-2010, 09:47 AM
#42
Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
recommend straight alcohol injection to cool in the intake and combustion temps as much as possible. It will take alot of PSI to run those times so it will be interesting to see how the heads/head gaskets handle it.
07-28-2010, 10:51 AM
#43
Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
Keep going!!!! 
I love this stuff.....!!!
If you're boosting the hell outta this engine does it matter what type of head work you do to it???
I know that you wanna make it smooth and transition well, but once it's "pressurized" does it matter???? (Just Asking)
Can't wait to see the progression!!! Mounting the turbo, Hotside, Coldside, Intercooler....
I love this stuff.....!!!
If you're boosting the hell outta this engine does it matter what type of head work you do to it???
I know that you wanna make it smooth and transition well, but once it's "pressurized" does it matter???? (Just Asking)
Can't wait to see the progression!!! Mounting the turbo, Hotside, Coldside, Intercooler....
07-28-2010, 01:07 PM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
yes we know its a 305 he wanted more info on the motor to find out if could be original to the car that pad gives info as to dates the block was manuf. and such
07-30-2010, 09:47 AM
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Re: Chronicles of a 9 Second 305 Trans Am, Can It Be Done....
Manifold is just about done. I'm using one that I already had sitting in the garage, its a Holley Pro-Jection unit, but for a TBI truck application. I already started the conversion to run it with a carburetor, and its coming along well. So far, other than the car itself, I spent nothing but time. Here are some pics of the manifold which should be completely done in about an hour or two. Fist three are of the intake ports; first is untouched, second with one almost done, third with both almost done. Just needs more smoothing and polishing, but that only takes a few minutes. The other two pics show the progress of the TBI to carb conversion, its just about finished. The manifold is getting repainted, so disregard that blue paint....;
Am I reading this right? You are planning on going 9s with a dual plane intake. That thing will have to run really rich to even come close to getting the AFR distribution right as to not hole a piston. I don't see 9s happening with that setup. Vic Jr style at a minimum.