I admit i was being a smart ***. But, when u got all defensive after my first post it seemed like i offended something dear to you, which provoked me even more. I like the ford-chevy rivalry. its all in fun, but some ppl take it way too seriously.
I think the fox body Is one of the cheapest ways to go fast. Its lightweight and aftermarket make it so easy. Have you looked at a summit catalog lately? There are 10 pages of parts for mustangs and 4pages for the f-body, and only a fraction of those parts are for the L98. 450 rwhp isn't that much of a problem for an f-body with any type of power-adder, but someone could do it cheaper on a fox-body...
The third gen is just a better-looking car. It looks faster, almost exotic at the right angle. The L98 is a nice looking motor too. Thats why i have one. it may cost more, but i don't mind...

As far as my analogy to 83 crossfire, refering to a street fight and a street race. The bigger, stronger guy does usually win 90% of the time. There are so many variables (excuses why u lost) in both scenario's. driver skill, the right groove, the launch, mechanical failure, missed shift, pedestrian traffic, etc. etc. and as far as bigger guy in a fight, i can think of a guy named Royce Gracie from UFC. 180 lbs and a champ 3 times. As far as my weapon to beat the big guy??? 150 hp of spray baby!

I do respect mustangs, i lost to them more than once.
Im hungry for **** lately.

 

My allegience goes to Camaros first, but - and please someone prove me wrong - you can't make 450rwhp on a stock l98 with just a power adder. Again *please* someone prove me wrong. Here is the recap (half opinion, half fact)

1. Camaros look better
2. Mustangs can get to 10's on stock equipment with a turbo - and Camaros *may* be able to get 12's.

 

I'll repeat myself.. Given the same parts I am confident NO PROBLEM and if it will make this thread go away I will buy one and prove it. Then you can buy it from me for my time and expenses.

 

go for it, mr biggtime. I'd LOVE to see it. And when I say that, I am not saying that in skepticism ... I am saying it out of genuine yearning to see it done.

 

If we made it fair, as in, both sides couldnt remove heads or intakes and give them the same parts. The Stang will come out on top. Its been done tons of times to Mustangs but yet nobody has done it to this godly l98.

If it could be done, someone would have already done it. I dont roam the power adder forum too much because its usually idiots posting how they want to bolt on a turbo.

You build this stock long block TPI into the 10's for more then a couple passes. I'm sure someone will buy it for far less what you have into it, same goes with JYTT setups on Mustangs. People sell those for 7-8k when they have 5k into it including buying the car.

I'll repeat myself, given the same parts, the Mustang will make more power, you nor anyone else can do it thats why it hasnt been done. If you can do it, DO IT then. But I guess who wants a 10 second car for a couple grand anyways, lets just spend 5k on a 400hp NA engine....

 

Assuming all other things equal, vehicle weight, transmission ratios, rear gear, tire height etcc... The same two turbos, with equal flowing manifolds, same intercooler, same everything, both in perfect tune...the l98 wins hands down. Theres no argument there.

The problem we face here is, it'll never happen. We're never gonna find two turbo cars that match each other on all the criteria. On the track the fox body will almost always be faster simply because it is almost always lighter. Drivetrain wise, i would certainly hope the mustang is gonna outlast the f-body. Our stock trannies and rears are pieces of garbage that should have never made there way into an fbody in the first place.

So this being the case, all we can do is speculate.

Eric

 

That is one thing I loved about having my old IROC and Firebird. A couple of 11 second cars where no one would even dream of them breaking 13's.

 

the only real reason for the 5.0 making more potential power is the forged pistons some years had. otherwise i think their fairly similar in comparison.
jeremy

 

actually, mine doesn't even have the forged pistons.

:lala:

 

93 and later?

 

well ... 93 at least

 

im thinking it was like '87-92 stang motors had forged pistons.... something like that. maybe it was '90 when they quit the forged.
cop crown vics had em also me thinks...
jeremy

 

the TRW forged piston, roller cammed motors were from 85-92 (switched sometime in 92). The 302 HO (high output ) as it is known, came in a few different applications including, but maybe not limited to, Lincoln mark VII, a few t-birds and cougars. they have roller cams too. the 86 only had true flat top pistons without valve reliefs even!

 

your thinking is flawed...


For one, the turbo aftermarket for fbodies is in its infant stage- 3rdgens have never had a good turbo kit.

My experiance with a stock longblock 5.0 was with someone from my area who i have watched race and seen what has gone into the car. He owns a 95svt, and "had" a stock long block, he now has afr heads.

his best run was 11.1 i beleive with slicks. he runs a single turbo kit however, and a IC. Might i add that he waspushing the limit with detonation, running race gas, and ended up poppin a headgasket cuz of it.

If there was a comparable kit out for fbodies, and there were people installing them on stock motors, then you would see tpi cars in the same times. Even the stock cobra intake barely flows as well as the tpi setup does.

Basically, diggler, your setting up a pissing match because your comparing a car with a huge aftermarket for turbos to a group of cars with NO turbo aftermarket. It hasn't been done yet, but you will see... I watched a turbo'd zz4 (stock zz4 internals too) in the engine shop yesterday make over 800hp... that was with vortec heads and a street cam...

it's going in a malibu, but i guarentee you that malibu runs in the 10's with drag radials...

 

1. My thinking isnt flawed, your reading abilities are.

2. I never said anything about kit, this is DO IT YOURSELF, junk yard setup.

3. I have proof, 10.90's, where's yours?

4. Last time I checked a T5 in a mustang was rated at like 300ft lbs of torque, guess a turbo 350 doesnt even compare to that power handling.

Anyone else going to defend the Fbody with no facts or proof? thats all I want to see is proof, nobody has done a setup in 15 years of existence? You are saying that there are no turbo TPI setups?

My buddy didnt buy a kit, he took a couple IHI's off some Ford I believe, made his own intercooler and ran it.

I think even if at the SAME BOOST level could get the TPI to run as fast as the Stang, the cast pistons will be saying bye bye after a few runs at this level.

 

If you think I'm wrong with the above statement, prove me wrong. Then I'll shut up, and say I'm sorry for being such a stuck up Fox body lover.

 

I think there is no point to this thread. Maybe Ford had a better piston in the stangs from factory, but the bottom line is (as Mark said) that the SBC is the stronger platform to build on.

 

That is true, I'm pretty sure I already agreed to that. But the cast pistons are going to give if you want to get real technical. Thats probably 75% of why nobody push's the stock shortblock that far, not the restrictive stock TPI manifold.

I love turbo's and fuel injection, no matter what car it is in. Thats why I will defend something I dont own. If I could trade my 3rd gen in for a stang I probably wouldnt because I value my car.

I'm done with this arguement, it's going no where because no one can prove me wrong (not saying I cant be proved wrong though...).

 

......but i did say that my car made ~465rwhp with tpi stuff.
jeremy

 

Man, I don't know why I'm bothering, but half of this was written earlier today and the rest when I came back to this thread just now…

Heh, did he used to have twin IHI's? To be honest with you (I don’t really care that much and don’t really want to get into a bitch fest about it), I'm not sure what I believe about that car. Early on on that board he was saying that he was going mid 10's with a pair of IHI's and no tuning, then later he said that he went mid 11's and that "low 11's are possible," and it seems like every few months there's something tragically wrong with the engine (bad rings…), and currently is running something completely different with 10.9@125 in his sig… As far as I can tell he's either talking about multiple cars, multiple engines, has a loose definition of "stock," I'm just not understanding what he wrote or is full of it (or maybe a little of all of them). He did at one point pretty clearly state 13psi on race gas…

Like I said, I don't really care, but there is not much that you could do, barring letting me disassemble that engine and actually see it run with known pump gas that would lead me to believe it 100%.

FWIW, 13psi on race gas would be more then enough to run similar numbers with an L98.

First, cast pistons are a non issue at this point unless you screw up your tuning. They'll hold up.

Second, WRT to making the power, the worst 350 heads out there flow 20-30cfm better then the best 5.0 heads that were available on a fox chassis, and intakes aren't even a comparison, since a stock TPI will outflow things like a cobra intake, forget a stock HO intake. Doesn't realy matter since both engines will be limited by head flow.

um, to be correct that would depend on the gear ratios/trannies used. The L98 will make more low end torque and slightly more HP (most likely, you could actually make a turbo choice that will work better with the smaller engine) but the 5.0 will rev higher. With steep gears and a loose converter the 5.0 will win, with taller gears and a tighter converter the L98 will win.

Again… not really. An f-body generally will have a stronger tranny (stock 700r4 vs stock AOD), If we're comparing comparable cars (stick to stick won't work since there is on L98+5 speed…).

I'd bet that a 10 bolt could live behind a turbo+auto setup for quite a while, longer then it would behind that much power made with N2O.

No doubt there. But the aftermarket will never be as strong for the f-body. Even if it was, there are fairly few 3rd gens that have seen any time at a dragstrip out there left with a truly stock longblock, so it's not very likely that you'll seed it more then once (I may do it with a stock engine but I doubt that it will happen with that engine in the stock body).

There won't be a comparable setup for f-bodies. Packaging is more difficult, and you won't see nearly as many home built setups either. There's an issue of complexity and money. I don't really believe that there is the money available to support anywhere near the aftermarket that there is with mustangs.

Huh, if you have any more details do you care to start a thread about it?

Just because you don't want to agree with what anyone says, right or wrong doesn't mean that you're right.

I've already addressed that. Maybe, maybe not… I don’t think that you'd be able to actually prove it to any satisfaction here. You were closer (I'm guessing OH based on the what ben has posted on turbomustangs… wait a minute, youre in Washington…) I'd actually love to see this twin IHI setup…

OK, what the hell does either have to do with the other? None of the f-bodies had 350's stock, and you didn't ask about an LB9, L03, L69, LG4 or LU5 car…

'86 and up turbocoupe.



The stock cast pistons could survive more power then the stock 5.0 block will, and the "restrictive" TPI is actually very similar, just slightly better flowing then the stock 5.0 intake.

 

I've been running 6psi on my completely stock L98 for over 50K miles now and the motor is fine. Blower went on at 75k miles (total 127K miles on completely stock L98). I dunno how much boost your buddy is running, but my stock L98 seems to be holding up fine to 6psi daily driven. I'm assuming he's pushing a lot more than 6psi to be putting down 470 rwhp. Ford has some good stuff. I've owned a SVO in the past (85), man that car was cool.

 

I know for a Fact that he runs those times. Not because Ive seen his timeslip (which he told us) but because he came in 2nd place in last man standing. He raced at the time a 10.3 Camaro and barely lost. But I guess I cant go off of that...

I live in WA State. If you ever come to WA State though, go to SRP. Most of these stang guys race there.

He said my thinking was flawed, yet I doubt he has read half my posts. You guys are all fighting me again with NO PROOF! Ben is my proof, he has a couple stangs. I dont know what this is about race gas. I dont ever remember him running it, the last time I saw him run he drove his car in and I never saw him fill up with race gas or anything (could be wrong though). You will have to talk to him for sure about his setup, but I'm pretty sure I am right.

In the works, he is building a Single turbo 351w right now.

Again crossfire, prove me wrong, thats all I ask. Why do you keep talking, you can say a L98 has the bottom end, but yet, nobody has pushed it?

"I think even if at the SAME BOOST level could get the TPI to run as fast as the Stang, the cast pistons will be saying bye bye after a few runs at this level. "

If thats BS, show me 1 person that has done this, nobody has ran 10-15lbs of boost on "race gas" and busted a 10 yet out of all the Fbody owners?

 

Man what a waste of Forum space. Who honestly cares if they can do whatever ona stock block. I dont and most other folks dont. If they beat me.... they beat me!! I dont care what he is running as long as its fast and is streetable at the same time.

If you like Stangs so much go buy one and leave the boards. This type of post has no place here where People are trying to build their 3RD GEN CAMARO/FIREBIRD!!!

Take your Dirty Stang love and hit the trail partner!!



Would it be possible to lock this post plz...its a waste of resources imho.

 

OK, are you ****ing stupid or just blind? First, every one of your questions has been answered and explained and second, DIGGLER has given you an example…

Go troll somewhere else

 

I'm with you Mark

 

The person that has so called "done it" is saying "just nobodys done it i guess".

"are you ****ing stupid or just blind? " I'll go ahead and use your words to describe you, they seem to go better that way.

Good point Crossfire, again, you got me beat!

Troll somewhere else? Why dont you pull your head at of your *** and realize that 3rd gens arent the only car in the world.

I'm so sorry I offended the godly L98... I should be banned from these boards, and my 3rd gens should be stripped from my hands.

 

i've kept my mouth shut up till this point, but i figured i would chime in.

How about some proof of this "ben" and is 10.9@125mph car. maybe a timeslip, a dyno graph, a video of a run, something because it sounds like BS

I can do the same thing.

"Hey guys this friend of mine that posts over at camaroz28.com is cutting a 10.5@128 on a completly stock L98, i've never seen it run, but he says it runs a 10.5, and everything on the internet is true."

Here is a real turbo LS1 putting down 775rwhp on the dyno, and it is COMPLETLY stock except for a LS6 intake, and better valve springs.

its a LS1, but still, its a real car, with a real stock engine, putting down real numbers, not someone trying to sound badass

https://www.quartermileperformance.c...ormulation.asp

also do keep in mind, there are more cars than you can imagine out there that are running extremely fast times on stock, or near stock engines. And they simply don't post their setups on the internet. There are people out there that don't live on the internet you know.

Let's tone down the cyber-ego's guys this thread has little to no tech in it

all in all, lets end the bitch-fest, everyone is arguing over nothing.

 

LOL.

Ive seen the car run. Infact I was in the car it raced against with his girlfriend trying to drive it for the first time. She killed it twice trying to heat the slicks. It wasnt really a good race, we smoked her off the line because she bogged it so bad, we kept about 5 cars until 3rd gear and then started gaining on us.

I was in a somewhat Identical setup to the car we were racing except with less boost and no traction. He has gone with the stock longblock at 6 psi 12.4s ? at around 118mph.

I know, I'm just some internet liar on here bragging about someone elses setup against the cars I own and modify. Good point.

I'll get proof sometime, he doesnt hang out on the Internet too much... I do because well I have no job and I love learning from you l98 guys hahaha!

 

me too... go find a foxbody tailpipe and have your way with it battery



escorts!!!!!!

 

You are very funny.

I'd compare you with those idiots who put down a 10 second Honda because its a Honda. Stupid rednecks like you that give us 3rd gen drivers a bad name...

 

Still looking for a lock here.

 

"stupid rednecks"

I'm sorry, we're the stupid ones, when your the one generalizing that because you've seen one fox-body go 10.9 on a stock long-block(which i'm still not sure whether i believe or not), and you've never seen a f-body do the same, that fox-bodies are better.

You've yet to give one technical reason as to why a similar setup f-body couldn't do the same or better

is it the l98's heads with more effiecent combustion chambers that control detonation better? Is it the 50 more cubic inchs? I just don't know.

[sarcasim]Man those L98's just can't compare huh[/sarcasim]

I don't own an l98, im not an L98 *****, in fact i don't even like the l98, but its still a better design than the stock 302 in mustangs.

i don't hate mustangs or hondas, i respect speed when i see it, whatever it is, but i hate when people make unjustified claims because of their lack of knowledge.

 

JEEZZ.... I can't even believe I'm saying this! But Scottland, I own both, and simply put - the 302 fox bodys have had a significant more amount of success over the third gens in terms of performance. Believe it when he says he saw a 10.9 stock block fox body. Have I see the one he saw? Nope, but he isn't alone. There are *several* out there. Just do some digging and you will find plenty. I *really* wish the third gens did as well.

 

A very large successful aftermarket, yes.

A success as far as performance goes, no.

there simply isn't any argument for the stock 302 as far as performance goes other than the large aftermarket, and weight.

but my f-body weighs close to 3100. so theres not too much argument there. its simply a moot point. just because there is MORE people running fast with 5.0's doesn't mean the 5.0 is better.

And also if he is running 10.9 on a stock block with a stock ECM that can't read boost, on race gas, on the verge of detonation, that motor isn't going to last too long.
Maybe the stock l98 boys just aren'y stupid enough to do it.

Either way I'm done for now, I'll come back when someone gives me some technical reasons as to why a stock for stock(turbo or not) l98 couldn't match a 5.0.

 

Not to try to flame you here at all, but if you are looking for techincal reasons why stock 302's are better than stock 350s then you are in the wrong thread The title is talking about turboed 302's vs turboed 350s.

With this in mind, the success in terms of performance for the fox body 302 vs. the l98 tpi 350 = the 302 wins. I believe that you are thinking that these low 11 high 10 second 302s are ready to blow up at any second, when the reality is that there are quite a few running up into the 150k-200k mark!

Believe me, I can see your point. I wouldn't have believed it either unless I researched it. But then I did. So I got one. And it *screams* - on pump gas!

If this is the end of the post, then sadly I'd have to say from research and experience, the turbo 302 wins. If you want to argue with it please PLEASE show me a turbo l98 doing at least something close.

 

This leads into another quesiton - what is the most hp a person has squeazed out of a stock block - stock internaled L98? I know of quite a few guys up around 575rwhp with the stock block and stock internaled 302.

 

Fine, whatever…

Obviously not… he doesn't have a clue.

L98's are really kind of pieces of crap, but so are most engines that share their vintage.

If you really wanted the best of the OEM 3rd gen V8 f-body parts then any pre '89 block is about comparable, choose your preference, 1 piece RMS or 2, choose your displacement. I would probably choose an 87 or 88 roller block. The best heads are easily the ones used on some of the pre '86 HO engines. The best induction… well there isn't one. The only thing good about the L98 is that it looks cool. The 4bbl carb manifolds were fairly sad, and the TBI manifolds worse. The crossfire was a good design but the runners are much to small for performance use. I'd probably pic based on what the rest of the combination is constrained to, and gruggingly settle for the TPI.

But then compare it to comparable fox mustang parts… the block won't hold up to the same power, but probably not an issue at this power level drag racing, the forged pistons are stronger but the cast pistons aren't an issue under these conditions. None of the heads will flow even close to the early 305 heads (for that matter, not even close to the crappy L98 heads). The early 305 heads had a chamber design very similar to a modern fast burn, the ford heads didn't. The normal HO intake doesn't even come close to a TPI, the cobra flows slightly less and has very similar runner dimensions.

I don't really care what the car is, but FWIW, I started as a ford guy…

 

that comment wasn't directed towards you

and ditto everything else

 

what model is it and what's been done to it to get it that light?

Actually, the stock MAF mustang setup is very flexible, and can be "tuned" for much greater airflow/larger injectors just by installing a matching maf/injectors.

 

 

Scottland,
That actually reminds me of a joke:

Q: What do you call an arizona resident without a/c in their vehicle?

A: An Idiot.

Not directed toward you (sorry, I had to take a jab since I saw it was arizona!). I ran a no a/c car in Houston for about 3-4 years. Talk about not fun! Especially when it gets 80 here, you start sweating due to humidity.

 

I've seen one fox body go 10.9. Ive been in a pretty mcuh equal setup that went 12.4's at 118 with 6lbs of boost. Then I've seen setups online hitting 11's with a sweet mph (okay 60's).

Now to L98's or even Third gens for that matter. Only seen 1 turbo thirdgen. He went with a twin turbo setup. He never made it to the track, but this wasnt an l98 and it was blow through.

Reasons I believe the way I do is first Ive never seen or even heard of a 10 second stock short or longblock third gen. And I believe the Fox Body is one of the greatest bargains for a car as far as looks/performance/price goes. Same goes with our F-bodies.

Reason I said "stupid rednecks" is because some people were posting some biased information.

 

if these are the same IHI turbos as off of the 2.3 turbo coupes then thats what i'll be running hopefully in the next 6 months... and it'll be on a stock block... i cant say a stock L98... i have a stock LT1 longblock lying in my garage, but i still need a lot of parts to get it running, and so im thinking about buying a 140k 85 305 TPI engine.... and so maybe in the somewhat near future we'll see what kinda power im making.... we wont really be able to compare times as it'll be in an S10 (approx 2800# w/o me) and it wont have much traction

 

I posted in your other thread too steve. I'd go with the 305, save you quite a bit of money, and those turbo's will actually function somewhat usefully.

Not that the LT1 or an L98 doesnt have the cubes or power potential, it's just those turbo's are so small.

 

I ran a 12.98 @ 112.37 with a 91 GTA. Only mods on it are slp mid-length headers, custom CAI, air foil for the throttle body, custom chip, fabricated my own y-pipe and exhaust w/ a flowmaster muffler, under drive pulleys, msd coils and a set of BFG Comp T/A Drag Radials. After that run I slapped on a NOS 150 wet shot and pulled a 11.82. Currently im taking the NOS kit off and installing a single turbo kit im getting from BBS Designs and im running it just how it sits.... stock internals, stock injectors etc.

 

Your going to need bigger injectors... BW

 

Liar! There's no freaking way that a stock L98 could run those numbers!


Sorry, had to get it out of my system… I keep getting the same about my '87 L98 running 13.5@100 with a cold air and cat back. I keep telling people that with my setup with headers and some minor tweaks you should be able to run high 12's in an L98…

 

i always wondered what would happen if you set an L98 up like a nmra factory stock class car.
everything aside from the shortblock is factory stock untouched parts with factory fuel injection setup.
the top dog right now is running 11.70's.

L98 car with tremec tko & 12 bolt or 8.8 coming off the line at 5k with a 2 step.... think it would go pretty good!
jeremy

 

Crossfire, is that all of your mods for running mid 13's? If so, thats awesome. Some guys out there arent getting too much better of times with a blower!

 

Crossfire... why would I lie? Do I have something to prove to YOU or anyone else on this board? I dont have a scanner or else id scan the slips, if you can tell me a way to get the slips on this computer ill do it. YES it is a stock L98 w/ bolt-ons and YES it did run those numbers. Its your decision to "believe me" or not but dont sit here and call me a liar.