I think you misread his post...........

 

Yes, just about. I did make the factory FPR adjustable and boxed the stock panhard rod and did quite a bit of tweaking at the track. The car did have eibach pro springs and koni yellows on it, but if anything they made it harder to run fast. This is even on original, at the time 16y/o Goodyear ZR's.

To be blunt, I've come to the conclusion that most people's driving leaves a lot to be desired. I've run 13.43@103 in a 305 TPI formula in a very similar state except it also had edelbrock TES headers and a 5 speed. My '97 LT1 6 speed car has run a 13.03@106.999 with just 4.10 gears, HPP+ (no ecm programming, just the gear change and moved the rev limiter up to 6400rpm), even the stock exhaust and 275 40 17 GSC's on it… the list keeps going

didn't you see the ???

I was kidding, since I've run just about every car I own faster then most people thought they'd ever run (there were a bunch of people that were shocked when I ran a 14.3 on my first pass with the formula after I bought it and though that that was all I'd get out it without spending money on parts) and I'm used to people telling me that the numbers that I ran aren't possible.

The fact is that rather good times are possible out of these cars with a decent driver.

 

Mark, those ETs are impressive. What do you do different than everyone else to make your cars run so well? I'm an inexperienced drag racer, but would love to learn some tricks to get better times. A good ET is great for bragging rights! When I tell people that my JY TT Iroc ran a 12.4, some say "is that all? I know this guy with a ____ that ran a _____". Then I'm left making excuses because they don't understand the work it takes to go fast. But if I could break into the 11s with good driving, I would be happy. Of course I once thought, when my motor was NA, that I would be happy to break into the 13s!- when you get some, I guess you always wnat more.

 

The biggest thing is to figure out how to launch a car. I've managed 1.8's on the stock, 16y/o tires on my '87 formula with a basically stock drivetrain. I've managed 1.71 with stock 275 40 17 GSC's on my '97 WS6, 6 speed car. Well, you can figure out how to drive it out of the hole or you can spend $$$ on suspension parts and sticky tires.

Figure .1 second in the 60' is typically worth about .15 or so at the big end of the track. If you compare my 60' to what some people are running with similar setups you'll see that I'm gaining .5-1second right there over a lot of people.

Not so big but still important (and I'm motioning this here because it's traction related) is that when you get the shifts right you'll probably be spinning the 1-2 shift, and chirping the 2-3 shift (with a manual, with an auto you'll still get a kick on the 1-2). Dead stock these cars like to kick out to the side on hard shifts. You can actually pick up a little over about .15 in your run by preventing it. Generally, I just box the stock panhard rod, but an aftermarket one works well and can be had for under $100.

Probably the second most important thing is to figure out what your car likes. My '97 and my '87 are completely different in different ways then most people claim "all LT1's" or "all TPI's" are. My LT1 runs fastest being shifted MUCH higher then the 5700-5800rpm that "everybody knows is the fastest for a stock LT1." I used the hypertech power programmer to raise the limiter to 6400rpm, and data logs of my best runs all show 6375rpm (the highest that a diacom will log) before the shift. My Formula 350 is just the opposite, it runs fastest with me forcing it to shift at a tach indicated 4400rpm (occasionally it sticks a little on the 2-3 shift, and lifting a little to force it to shift is actually faster then allowing it to shift where the auto wants to). Another weird thing about that car is that it runs the same exact times with everything from 4*-14* initial ignition advance. That being the case, I always run 3-4* (since most cars will run faster on 87 then 93 if you can control detonation). It also likes 54psi fuel pressure (so rich that you can actually see the exhaust at idle, but it runs fastest there, so I don't argue with it).

Another thing is to find a pattern that works for you and stick to it, and then only change one thing at a time. If you stick to the pattern you can see very quickly what changes do what to the runs. Things that work for me that "everyone knows" don't work is big burnouts on radials and something in the 33-36psi range for the tires. By big burnouts I mean:
http://wave.prohosting.com/mpikas/mo...a_V_Z28_xs.avi
http://wave.prohosting.com/mpikas/mo..._Bullet_xs.avi

(sorry, those are not my fastest runs, but they're runs that I had video of. They were made when it was 97* out and as you can see the car was really hurting. Right around 90mph or so the lack of a front end was causing the hood to try lift off the car, so I kept lifting off the gas at around there. I did at least cream that bullet by half a second, you can get some impression how bad the conditions were by how slow those 2 cars ran)

 

Sweet. Thanks for the info.

I was always told the first sixty feet or so were very important. I plan to work on that.

I think I do have a problem with my combo, though. With the 3.70 rear gear I'm hitting 6000 thru the traps at 113-115 (obviously over my powerband writh the L98). I've hit 117mph when I shift into 5th gear, but ET falls off (ran several 13.0s at 116, 117). I plan to install a set of sticky 28" tall tires to help put me in the power band thru the traps. This should make the launch a bit easier too.

Also, funny you mentioned the spin on 1-2 shifts. I was pretty much staying in it because I felt that the spin was too minimal to effect the ET. I will have to try boxing the panhard bar to minimize the side-step.

 

83 Crossfire TA, I dont think you can really call the 5.0 a piece of crap. You stipulate that there would not be a following for the five liter if it werent for the cheap easy to build fox body. Igot some news man the 5.0 has been around a LOT longer than those cars. The 302 was a tried and true motor long before our third gens came around, and to tell you the truth is probably a lot better than ours too!

 

Yes, it's been around for a while, but it didn't really have a significant following before the fox mustang. Prior to that there were no more sb fords built then sb mopars and assorted other engines. The majority of the performance aftermarket was the SBC, with the occasional badass BBC, Mopar Wedge, Mopar hemi, big block ford (some of them at least, besides the cobra jets, side oilers, cammers… most of the big fords were looked upon as truck engines). Prior to the fox mustang the hot SBF parts were either K code 289 parts or Cleveland stuff, there was no real performance aftermarket for them.

Just because they have a nice following it doesn't mean that it's well designed.

 

Well, we can agree to disagree, because i've known people that have been building 302s for a long time. Thats ok though.

 

Nice… 117 and running out of gear. FWIW, typically, that kind of mph should be worth roughly an 11.6-11.7 if everything else was right. If you get it to cross the line at about 4800rpm or so (assuming a relatively stock TPI combo also assuming that the rpm that you're stating is relatively accurate), don't be surprised to see something in the 120-124 range right around 11.1-10.9.

Have you listed the rest of your combo somewhere hear? How close are you to a stock L98?

 

Here are some numbers you can gauge by
11.08/121.41/1.57,60'/5900trap rpm/3650lbs
3000 stall converter/28tall tire/3.89gear

 

I don't know how acurate my tach is, but I'm seeing 6k as I pass the line, in 4th.

My engine is a completely stock '89 L98 and I installed a tremec 6 speed behind it. The long block is completely stock and I even reused the stock exhaust manifolds, modified to mount the turbos (cut off and plugged the rear outlets, welded on turbo mounting pedestals to the front). I am running two JY volvo turbos- TB03s with .42 comp AR, .48 turbine AR. I think these turbos, combined with the restrictive TPI inlet track is seriously hurting top end. On a chassis dyno, the graph for both HP and and TQ fell off pretty hard near the top (4800-5000 I think is where it dropped- I will have to look at the graph again). Obviously spinning to 6000 is not good for this combo. This was my first turbo project, and I am still learning. Maybe with a better combo of tires, gearing, etc I can prove Battery wrong, but 12.4 is a long way from 10.9 that he is claiming form his buddies car.

PS- I just looked at my best time slip again- 12.460@112.93, 1.91@60ft. This was run to high 5000 range in fourth gear. Like I said, I was going faster the week before when I was shifting into 5th, but ET was actually slower (unfortunately I did not keep those slips, so I cannot remeber the exact numbers, but I know I hit 117mph at least once)

 

This reminds me of a debate that happened over on one of my other boards, not over the 5.0, but over the new cobra motor compaired to the LS1. Aparantly the Ford guys have been able to pull off an 8.99 ET of a stock longblock. It apears that they feel that the modular ford is a better design because it comes with forged internals (aftermarket mind you). True the ford engine can hold up to more power, but they have to supercharge it or nitrous it to get there. It has never been GM's initiuative from day one to build a motor around the idea that it was going to be supercharged or nitroused. Thats why. They could have put TRW pistons and titanian rods but why? A majority of people are satisfied with running the low 13's that the TPI is capable of running with just bolt-ons. If you want to go faster thats what the aftermarket is for. The L98 was a good matched motor to get what it was built to get done. The Ford had mismatched parts and lack of technology and machining, which made it hard to get real power N/A but to make up for it they put aftermarket pistons and such to pave the way for the 5.0 to pass up the L98 through FI. Thats why there are Ford guys and there are Chevy guys. We find our satisfaction in pulling those 10.9's without the FI. The Ford guys just like doing the 10.9's

 

Well, to the thread starter… here you go, another stock L98 with some really undersized turbos that should be able to run with your boy… assuming an experienced driver was behind the wheel… probably faster if the gearing was optimized.

As far as mod motor vs LS1… the mod motor is actually much better built. I hate to put it this way (since I'm sure that this will start another debate), but the LS1 is basically a pile of crap with killer heads bolted on top. The mod motors biggest deficiencies are that it's relatively complicated, parts are expensive and it's HUGE (bigger then a ford big block).

 

Cant we just say it like it is? No one can run a 10.90 without some mods. It doesnt really matter what brand you run, any of them can be made powerful. Even the hated mopar. It just really depends on how much money you spend. I would never buy a new GM car. If I were to plunk 25-30K it would be at a Ford dealership, but I love my 3rd gen and all the GM musclecars. Build what you want or what you got, they can all be fast. Its stupid for everyone to argue about which was better, etc. It's 75% opinion. Some ford parts are better some chevy are better, the point is, build yours the best you can and quit bitching about which one is better.

 

Actually, funny thing, I'm not very picky. If I saw the advantage in running a ford, mopar, even some imports in what I wanted to do then I would be running that car (there are some disadvantages that I can't get around either, such as cost and size, I'm 6'4 and 300something, I don't fit in a lot of cars). I started as a ford guy (hard not to be if for most of the early years of your life you mom tooled around in a '68 mustang) and I pretty much like anything that can make excessive tire smoke or can make enough torque to break things that shouldn't be broken.

Along these lines, for what I'm interested in doing with a car, I've seriously considered running a 3rd gen f-body with a mopar small block, chevy tranny and a mopar rear axle… haven't done it yet, mostly because I've got enough spare chevy parts that the "free factor" is outweighing the "this would be the right way" factor. Another combination that I've seriously considered was a SBF in a fiero. Big Caddie in a lot of bigger chassis (trucks too) is also one high on my list (as a matter of fact, I've been wasting a lot of my time putting one in a '66 LeMans lately).

 

I agree entirely, It doesnt matter the manufacturer, it depends on the individual engine. Some are better than others. It all really depends on how you build it. Although I must say, a 10.90 on a stock long block is a little out there. Cant say that it isnt possible though.

 

How bout I bolt on two bigger t3s, and then have you run my car for me. We're not the far apart (3hrs maybe), and I will buy you lunch if you beat BAttery's buddie's 10.9?

 

Heh, I think you can get it with 28 or 29" tall tires (I'm hoping to run 3.27's with 27" tall tires). I don't think that you need bigger T3's to do it, but if you were going to do it, I'd look at the 60/.48's over the 60/.63's, unless you've got a converter that stalls over 3K (I don't know what you've got there). Oh wait… tremec 6 speed killer… I haven't raced a 6 speed for a couple of years… I miss it.

As far as making passes in your car… sure, what track do you want to do it at? I usually run at capitol, but any of the local tracks would be fine. SE PA… what city are you near? I know that there's a track there in the mountains somewhere that Mike Sitar used to hit occasionally. Otherwise, I guess Cecil or something? Care to run down to Capitol? I'm there most Friday nights, I just called my brother to ask how the action is up there tonight since I didn’t make it today… hard to talk to someone wearing a helmet doing a burnout.

Disclaimer: the one thing that worries me about running other people's cars is that there's always the chance that something will blow up, but I'd in no way try to blow something up. Hell, I can't see myself even considering winging a TPI up to 6K, but I do throw some hard shifts… what rear is in that thing?

Disclamer#2: my wife just warned me to tell you that I'm well over 300# (don't worry, it's a fairly small 300#, I fit in size 36 jeans… it's the size 58 jackets that are the problem), which could make it even more embarrassing if I go faster then the average 150#'er and could make lunch expensive

 

I like your disclaimers!

Anyway, I was not too serious about having you run my car, as I understand the situation we could be in if something broke (like my BW 7.75 rear). As far as the trans, the t56 will be replaced with a TKO 5speed by the time the car hits the road again (I'm in the middle of a complete restoration, with the engine and trans out, and I got a deal on a TKO).

BTW, I usually race at Maple Grove, as it is 5 minutes from my house. My family and friends are not really into drag racing, so I just recently started in it, and that explains why I've got some learning to do. I will practice more this season at the test and tunes.

And now back to the turbos I'm running. You recommended a .60/.48 AR combo. I was thinking my .48 exhaust was really my main restriction, but are you thinking the compressor is more of a problem? I would have guessed the .60/.63 would be ideal, but I didn't know for sure. Do you seriously think my current T3s will go 10.9 with proper gearing (tire size)? I mean thats 1.5 seconds away- I only gained 1.8sec or so with the addition of the turbos. I'm just curious, sorry if I'm asking too many questions!

 

It's back! I've seen a 305 TPI with a Vortech do that 10 years ago, you must live in Ford land or something where no one races F-Bodies.I also saw that someone was interested in SB2.2 heads and a turbo.Look here Were talking 5.09 @ 141 in the 1/8th with 15psi. the second time at the track.When he gets the suspension sorted out it's going to 25psi! Bottom line is the fastest car at the track will always be a Chevy!

 

:shrug:

a little off topic? thought this post was about a stock 350 with a turbo on it?

 

Wana barrow my Syclone TD06/19C Turbos and try them out on your setup ?

I just yanked the twin turbo setup off my camaro Http://www.geocities.com/kingtaling

and im about to begin parting the motor out. Im throwing my blown 383 under the hood for now, just to keep the car in the family so to speak, and my twin turbo setup is going for sale next week. but if you wana bring your car down here, I have no problem bolting these giant turbos onto it for a few days to pull some 10.90's and shut some people up


I KNOW it can be done. just that no one in the right mind would do it. unless it was nearly free, or just for fun.