I have a 93 Mustang with a stock 302 that dynoed at 443rwhp on an old crummy exhaust system. Should now be about 470rwhp. All it has is port work and a PT GT67 turbo. All stock internals and 76k on the clock. Can a stock 350tpi hang with that? If not, how quick can we get these things?

 

i think it could, BUT it'll need a very good tune to keep it alive

 

If you did the same port work and used the same turbo, Sure why not?
Not to start a war but how many stock 302's came with port work?

 

haha. let me clarify. the heads are stock; or they came from the factory and they have had port work done to them

:lala: :lala: :lala:

 

The concept behind the original design for both engines is very similar. They both have long runner intakes and crappy heads. Most of the TPI engines make more power stock then the 5.0, so at the same pressure ratio you can expect the TPI engine to make proportionately more power.

The only real advantage with the 5.0 is that the ford engine management tends to be more flexible with less work, so it's easier to make more power and get a reasonable tune without spending as much to do it.

 

I dont see it happening.

I'd like to see someone to that to a TPI motor, but Im certain it will not even be close.

 

What won't be close? FWIW, I'm slapping a Holset H1E on a stock L98… of course, no one believes that it's a stock L98, or is it that no one believes that I've run the times that I've run in it... I don't know... I really don't care... (it's as it came from the factory, with just over 80K miles now).

As far as ultimate OEM parts combinations, I think you could come pretty close using an LG4 (some mild cleanup on the factory heads and you have something comparable the the vortecs), added your FI setup of choice (TBI or TPI) and boost. A late L98 or LT1 cam would be nice also, but there are better aftermarket cams… A similar combination starting with an L69 with some 350 heads (vortec?) would actually be better…

You'll have low compression and great detonation control. Just up the boost till you run the number.

Of course, no will actually try it...

Is this mustang intercooled? Race gas? For the most part the hardest part about doing this with an L98 is controlling detonation, but you can get around that with some combination of an intercooler, water injection and/or race gas.

 

I'm sticking with.. If you do the same to both why wouldn't the chevy make the same power? Like 83 Crossfire TA said, the chevy might take a little more to tune, but other than that???Doesn't the 350 TPI make more power out of the box rthan a 302? At least we don't have to worry about our block breaking in half like all those 302's do.

 

The 302 is on pump gas and has an intercooler. Hands down, the looks of a nice third gen runs circles around a fox body all day long, but I have yet to see someone even remotely run something close in terms of power with just a stock l98. Instead, I hear all these people excited about cracking 13's. Don't get me wrong, high 13's is nothing to bawk at...then again it's a BIG difference from knocking on the door of a 10 second pass. Has anyone even broken into the 12's with a stock 3rd gen and just a turbo? (TTA's need not apply )

 

well, back when my GTA had the banks twin turbo kit on it, it put down ~465rwhp 550ft.lbs torque, i believe.
this was with the tpi intake, s/r torquer heads, VERY MILD cheapo hydro. flat tappet cam, and i think trw pistons. 355".
here's the kicker... it made that power on pump gas, with no intercooler, and the car passed emissions with cats! this was back around '93-95 ish...

in the process of a much nastier setup.
jeremy

 

I broke into the 12s on a bone stock L98, 93K miles. Stock ECM and chip, running 6psi boost via two volvo TB03 turbos. Used msd 6btm and vortec FMU with 8:1 spring for tuning. Used two stock 89 Ford Probe GT intercoolers and Sunoco 94 fuel.

Best ET at Maple Grove Park, Mohnton PA: 12.46 @ 113MPH, and backed it up with a 12.57 @ 112.60. Both were low 1.9 60s.

And no porting work. Only pullled the valve covers to paint them.

Oh yeah, and stock cast pistons.

Also had original cast iron manifolds with the rear outlets blocked off and turbo mounting pedestals welded on up front.

All throttle, no bottle, no belt!

 

DIGGLER, how much boost were you running? What kind of engine management were you using?

How fast has this mustang run? Is it a stick or auto?

Most of the L98's were factory rated at 220-245hp (mine is the bottom of the heap '87), 5.0 mustangs were all rated under 210. The thing is that mustangs could be had with much lighter bodies (hell, the engine weighs 200# less)… but pretty much a well tuned stock L98 should be capable of high to mid 13's, which is about what a similar 5.0 should be capable of. With some tweaking, slicks… both should be capable of high 12's (assuming a stick or a higher stall converter in both cases).

I suspect that you'd be able to see similar #'s at the wheel from an L98 with about 10psig or so…

 

i believe my car was running right around 10# of boost, seems like.
fuel management was via accel dfi.


shortblock is now all forged GOOD stuff, with vic. jr. heads, and tubular turbo headers. ~8.5:1 compression 358cid.
intake is accel proram with 1200cfm throttlebody.
twin intercooled t04b's for da boost.

gonna try to make a good number.
jeremy

 

Actually 5.0s (87-92) were rated at 225hp until they switched methods in 93 to make the Cobra look better. Same power just different way of testing. Sort of how they detune the Camaro for the Vette..

I know there is a person on here in the 12's with a stock long block i remember reading about his JYT setup.

My buddies twin turbo mustang went 10.90's I'd like to see a TPI do that...

Almost completely stock long block. I know he had fuel upgrades, maybe ignition and throttle body...

 

my GTA would have gone a 10.90 making the power it was, if it was setup correctly. which it wasnt. it was a street car. and it would have done it with all the tpi stuff on there.
i dont see any reason why an intercooled tpi motor wouldnt run a 10.90. just nobodys done it i guess.
jeremy

 

You could be right. It's just nobody has done it, which is why I doubt it. My buddies setup was under 2,000$ including all his little extra's. I think he maybe a little over the 2,000$ once you include tires/rear end but not much over if at all.

Reason Mustangs do it is because one of the hardest thing for a DYI is the manifolds/headers. They flip em up side down weld on a flange, done.

I'd love to see a 10 second stock long block tpi, dont get me wrong, i just doubt I'll ever see it.

 

I gotta stock L98 and i run 12's with the cheapest power adder around...... there is nothing special about 5.0's

 

I also smoke lots of mustangs on the street.... half of em have more RWHP than me, the punks can't drive clutch very good. A mustang is a ford escort with a V-8.. nice interior on those fox-bodies..... escorts i say!!!!!!

 

Maybe just check out Gale Banks original specs for their TT kit. Their power numbers were probably based off stock L98 motors. Other than that I got no idea because anyone who is going to put the time and money into a turbo setup will probably also mod the motor.

 

the banks TT kits were originally built for carbureted engines. The new stuff that they're advertising now is a package designed around their own engine...

Continuing the "what is possible" discussion… making those power numbers shouldn't be that hard with an L98 and proper tuning. The problem would be in running that number. A perfect example of this is that a stripped (prepped?) fox mustang could be easily gotten under 3200#, and one over about 3400 or so is downright portly. In contrast, It's pretty hard to get an f-body in that range. My '87 formula, with a full interior, but just about everything unnecessary removed (AC, tons of smog stuff, some plumbing, jack, spare…) gets about as light as 3710# (that's the lightest I've ever had it in 'race trim'). You might be able to loose another 150# from that with another driver (I'm a big boy… over 300#), but past that you're looking on either $$$ or loosing creature comforts.

That pretty much means that you need to find about 15% more HP then the mustang guy does to run the same number (I'm stuck on ET since dyno numbers are hard to repeat, at best, and don't really relate between different cars with different weights and drivetrains, especially with a power adder like a turbo, which spools dependant on load…).

I think that a low 11 is easily possible, I think a high 10 is borderline without some upper engine work and/or race gas. If the stock heads were lightly worked to flow a little over 200cfm it could be done.

Like I mentioned, I'm working on something right up this alley, but I doubt that I'll give you a concrete answer for 2 reasons. The first is that I can't see myself porting a set of L98 heads…, I'd most likely swap to either a vortec head or possibly an older 76cc head (would swapping to an old design OEM SBC head like an 882 still keep you happy?). Second, the body that this experiment is being performed in has a bent frame and some structural parts rotted out (it's missing about 6" of the inside of the passenger rocker), and I don't really see the point of fixing it or putting a roll bar into this body, I suspect that later this year I'll probably be out looking for a new body to swap all the good stuff out of this one (I may even consider my first camaro, after owning 4 firebirds, mainly since camaros in similar trim usually run as much as 100# lighter), and I would have a hard time leaving everything totally stock while it's out of the car.

 

mustangs can be gotten down more like 28-2900#. buddies 3rd gen camaro is somewhat stripped.... still has 2 seats, dash,console, interior panels, but weighs around 3100. my car has alot of interior stuff in it so well have to wait to find out what its going to weigh.
jeremy

 

yes but the unstripped 84 sport coupe camaro that I actually added weight to weighed barely less than that. Im not sure why but it seems the later the camaro the heavier.

This 84 sure wasnt

Removed:

2.8 engine
7.5 rear
T-5

added:

iron headed 355
9" ford
T-56
subframes

 

Yes there is something special about Mustangs. And why are you generalizing? Just because it was some 16 year old kids dream to own a 5.0, so he gets it for a first car or something, learning how to drive. Now everyone is a punk who cant drive?

I suggest you check out www.stangnet.com, www.corral.net, www.turbomustangs.com and if you think the 5.0 is still crappy after seeing those combo's then you're a moron.

Your third gen weighs 3700lbs thats crazy.

As soon as I see a 10 second pass on a stock L98 longblock I'll back down, but you guys are defending something that you've never even seen.

 

I can vouch for that, I have seen a 10 second stock shortblock stang. With it's tiny stroke crank rods that are almost as wide as they are long, and TRW forged pictons from the factory, the headgaskets go long before you can kill the enigne, kind of like a safety valve on those windsors.



Add to that a light car with factory dual exhaust, with room for larger

a rear end that is as strong as a 12 bolt or 9" stock

and parts availability that has seen a market flood

mass air flow EFI that can be made to flow, and that with the stock ECM and only mass air flow sensor recalibrating can be made to operate an 8 second car on the street no less.

its not surprising more people don't own one.

 

I dont own a Mustang, but I'd take an equal Fox Body over a 3rd gen. There is a pretty good list why.

Headgaskets, nothing some head studs and a good tune will not fix.

 

haha, that sounds just like a joke I used to tell my ford friends:

Q: you know what sound a 5.0 makes just before it is blown to smithereens?

A: The owners saying, "Thats it! Im buying studs and better head gaskets..."

 

Blowing a headgasket is a tuning tool.

I love Fox bodies.

A friend who went 10.90's (never got to ride in his car ) and another who went like 12.70s at 117 at around 6lbs of boost. Was in this car a few times, WOW. When you hooked it was probably one of the coolest cars Ive ever been in.

I remember racing a late 2nd gen Camaro who was dialed in like mid 12's or something. This was a street racing type event, so it was just a flagger. I remember him jumping a serious lead ahead of us. It was huge, but then, 3rd gear somewhere it started to turn, by the end of third it was like a fly by.

 

The part I like the most about mustangs is beating them on the street with my Typhoon And then listening to them whine

 

there was an article series where they put a vortech mondo on a stock 5.0 and it went 10's then 9's I never saw the article beyond that buut I was told it went 8's but I never read it myself. it was the fastest magazine project car until carcraft made thier 8 second mustang and it really pissed off the guys at MM&FF magazine.

 

Yeah its hard taking those 200k+ aod verts in the 15's ;(

 

It is interesting you mention high mileage. Once, when we still had our shop, I had a chance to tear down about a dozen 5.0 HO motors in one day as part of a shop cleanup. They were all high mileage all over 100K some over 200k.
Other than the one with the failed oil pump, the only real wear found in them were stretched timing chains. The bearings all looked like new, the bores all had nice factory crosshatch still and were fairly un-glazed possibly due to the high nickel content of the blocks. The pistons being forged were all in good enough shape to be re-used (if someone wanted to).
These were only meant as cores to be used in building hot motors. Most of them were looked over by low budget hot rodders and purchased as cores from us and then simply given the "El Cheapo" re-ring and bearing job and reside in some stangs in town still today. a couple of them are nitrous cars!

life is stranger than carcraft

 

I am just curious why anybody in there right mind would toss a turbo setup on stock engine ford or chevy? you are just asking for trouble without stronger internals cause as we all know, once you get a taste for speed you want more. which eventually leads to BOOM. being able to turn up boost at will is like drugs!!!!!

 

I think you missed my post, the fords have internals that can handle it, and both have some that can handle it to some extent.

 

i agree... im working on a '90 stang at the moment. el cheapo re-ring/re-bearing with slightly larger cam, p heads, and a vortech supercharger.
dont be a skeerdy cat!! even if it blows we can pick another one up for like $300, maybe less....
jeremy

 

Anyone who tries to race, street race especially, but cant drive is a punk.

 

What?

 

Yea, but that's a stripped car without a driver. I've seen mustangs taken down under 2600#, you'll NEVER get there in an f-body using a stock chassis. Stick a 2-300# driver in your 28-2900# stang and you've got something in the 3200 range. My formula should be right around 3400 without me, 3710 is the best it's been with me in it. Add subframe connectors, t-tops… and you have my '83 which was right around 3460 empty.

Camaros could be had at about 100-150# lighter. Hell, get rid of the flip up theadlights on a firebird and you loose 31#... Camaros also have more holes in the core support and don't have the big steel "wings" going from the radiator hole to the frame rail… The bodies are actually more different then people expect.

The 5.0 really is a piece of crap that has a good aftermarket due to a good, cheap chassis that was available. If it wasn't for the fact that fox mustangs were available in some years for close to half of what one of the high performance f-bodies was, the 5.0 market wouldn't exist like it does.

The 5.0's only real redeeming quality is that it's light for what it is (also it's failing when you push it past about 500hp). Funny thing, the 5.0 weighs the same as the lima ford I4 (the 2.3L turbo used in the mustangs/t-birds/cougar/mercur…)
(BTW, I've owned a bunch of all of the cars/engines that we're talking about, my first car was a cougar xr7 with the 2.3turbo/5 speed, and I waste WAY too much time wrenching on my brother's 4 door fox chassis).

I'm sorry, that's what the truck scale said…

Um, you haven't seen one with a stock ford long block. You've seen a stock short block go that fast, which would be a piece of cake with a 3rd gen

heh, if I blow up my L98 I'm not rebuilding it. I'm either going with the '95 LT1 that I snagged for $100 or more likely I'll try snag a 305 for free, just so I can laugh at the people that start sentences with "the 305 can't…"

 

Actually long block meaning, stock heads/cam/intake/block/pistons/crank/rods go 10.90. Lots more stuff stock but not exactly sure from there on.

You can think its crappy, but I'd like to see you go defend your point of view with some knowledgable Ford fanatics on those sites.

I'm not putting down the f-body, I'm just saying, dont put down the Fox body.

 

have a buddy that was running 6.70's in the 1/8 with a bone stock 5.0 motor. down to the valve covers. stock stock stock.
with a 200 shot, gears, exhaust, and sticky tires.
not bad, eh? like a 10.50 or some junk in the 1/4.
might have heard of him, brad meadows, he runs nmra pure street now.
anyways, im sure you could do the same with a third gen. pistons arent forged, but they should last awhile with a perfect tune.
jeremy

 

Ok Mustangs are fast cars....we already know this. So instead of bashing the Third Gens by saying that they "cant" do this or that and then saying that the Mustangs are "uber" why dont you mustang guys post something positive....or how bout move to your own board to hype yourselves up and bash 3rd gens...k thanks.

 

Um, ported heads are stock? If you have to pay someone to port the heads that's more $$$ invested in the long block then just swapping for different OEM SBC heads on an L98.

For that matter, I really don't believe that an entirely stock long block would have ported heads on it. I would believe a "stock like" rebuild, but that’s significantly different then actually stock. You could very easily iron out the problems with the L98 and running boost running the right combination of stock replacement parts and proper machining.

You're barking up the wrong tree here. I probably spend more time on ford sites then here, especially turbomustangs.

There is no real argument here among anyone knowledgeable, the SBC has a much stronger block (then a 5.0, you can get a similar block with a 5.8/351 truck engine) and superior head port and chamber design (most of the reason why SBC's can run .5-1 point more compression when comparing very similar chevy and ford engines using OEM parts). The SBC gets an adjustable valvetrain and more head bolts per cylinder. Ford gives all this up and in exchange gets a lighter engine and one that is a little easier to make custom parts for. Want me to **** everyone off? Chrysler actually has everything that was done right with the SBC and adds a shallower valve angle creating a better port to chamber entry. Chryslers biggest problem is the much smaller aftermarket then both ford and chevy.

Put down??? WTF is wrong with people here… in one thread I'm accused as being a ford guy (like it was a bad thing) and in another I'm a chevy guy putting down ford. Funny, I can say the same stuff on ford forums/lists and no one bitches. I'm sorry, I'm pretty much telling it like it is. Huh, ok, in the last few months I've spent more time wrenching on a big caddy engine in a '66 lemans, so maybe I'm a Pontiac or Caddy bigot? Um, I welded a manifold for a slant 6 in a dodge dart… MOPAR RULES! I was rather instrumental in the swapping of an LT1 into a Subaru impreza wagon… I'm not sure that that makes me. How about a ford 460 in a chevy truck?

Look, when it comes down to it, they all have their advantages and disadvantages. You build according to what those are, take advantage of the strengths and work around or fix the weaknesses. To be honest, I like 3rd gen f-bodies entirely because I think that they're the best $ per performance value out there. They'll out handle just about anything that you can be purchased for a similar price, while still launching better at the dragstrip, SBC's can be built cheap and strong… fox and newer mustangs miss by just a little bit, they don’t quite have the suspension or the same potential from the stock power plant, but are much easier to work on, come with a better rear axle and are lighter (in some cases more common/cheaper, but generally once you find a cheaper mustang it's usually been monkeyed to the point that you don't want to try fix everything that was done before you).

 

I agree with crossfire 83'...you build what you like.....seems that Battery is hyped on the 5.0, so why don't he get the best of both worlds and drop a 5.0 in a thirdgen??
I do like rivalry and mustangs used to be the "enemy", but i like street-racing, and without a rival you don't have a race. Battery
got all defensive about "mustangs" when I said " I like to smoke
mustangs on the street with more rwhp than me, but the punks can't drive." Street racing is like street fighting, sometimes the bigger, stronger guy loses. There are lots of variables, and experience brings knowledge. Go ahead and build your 5.0 escort, oh i mean mustang.
i will be waiting for you on the streets.

 

I was referring to the person who said the Mustang is an Escort and they are junk, blah blah blah.

By the way, MY BUDDY NEVER TOUCHED HIS HEADS. REPEAT MY FRIEND IS NOT THE PERSON ON THIS BOARD!

he went 10.90's with a stock long block. If you want to call him out, www.turbomustangs.com is a good place, thats pretty much the only board he posts on, but not too much.

Only thing as far as power adder advantage for the SBC is block strength.

Ive never owned a Mustang or a Ford. Ive owned 3 chevy's though. I respect all cars for what they are, not who makes them.

 

blah blah blah

 

Lets bust out of the 15's and not post *****.

I'm not trying to argue here.

My opinion

Stock 5.0 with equal turbo and supporting mods will beat an equally modded/stock TPI setup.

10.90s on stock longblock, didnt remove the heads... As soon as someone can post a time slip with stock TPI setup that beats that I'll shut up.

 

heh… so you'll get an f-body that will handle slightly better then a stock f-body, have less torque and less total power potential then a comparably built SBC?

How about you drop a bunch of defunct nascar/SB2.2 parts into the engine bay, breath some life into it with something the size of T76's or similar… hang on

3 thoughts here.

First, I don’t like the analogy. I used to work as a bouncer, and as a matter of fact someone tried using a baton on me last Wednesday, and I can tell you that for the most part the bigger/stronger guy doesn't loose unless someone pulls a gun or something.

Second, I agree with your point, but it doesn't only apply to street racing. It is not uncommon for the faster/higher HP car to loose in a drag race, at the track or on the street. In some cases it can be a better driver, a better combination of power and durability (how many time have you seen the faster car at the track break at the wrong time?), or just dumb luck.

Third, as far as I'm concerned the enemy is the dumbass that does the same old ****, that throws money at the problem or just does dumb ****. My favorite races are things like the time my brother beat a brand new 911 in his sunbird, the viper owner the next neighborhood over that I've continually handed his *** with my lowly f-body, the time I beat a brand new S2000 3 lights in a row with 5 people in my K1500 blazer (and yes, he was racing), or a similar race in the same truck against a Honda with a 10pt roll bar while my wife laughed at him from the passenger seat…

 

Who is it?

Oh well, I listed the advantages, if you don’t understand why I would have listed any of them then ask specific questions… or don't…

I'm not sure that block strenght counts at this power level, unless you're roadracing the car or something similar. OTOH, if you're doing something like that with a stock version of either engine pushing that much power I doubt that either would live long term.

 

Aaahh my eyes! I knew something bad was going to happen but I clicked anyway because the throught of a SB2 motor with huge turbo's was too much for me to handle!!

 

interesting, I would like to see what happens when you combine the light weight of a fox body with the torque of a TPI?



or how about a turbo BBC in a fox body?

 

His name is Ben, not quite sure on exact screen name but something like this. ntrcptr90.

By advantages I mean in stock long block form, since thats what this entire discussion is about. What are the cast pistons better then forged? Fords pretty much only weak point (at this level) is block strength which Chevy has the advantage over.

Please explain how this is not so...



As far as 2quik4u. I'm hyped on not having to tear apart the short block in order to roam the streets with decent power. I'm hyped that 450rwhp is accomplished for a couple grand and a few weekends. Infact I'm so hyped about the Mustang thats why I've never owned one, but yet have owned 3 f-bodies.