Ive been a member of this board about a year,about as long as I had a computer.I just finished reading the post about twin turbos.I can help but bring this up,this is no flame towards anyone or their car.I want to know with all the availible supercharger kits,ATI's D1 kits,the D2 which by the way fits our year,the S&T trim Vortechs,and any other Vortech models I left out why anyone would go out on a limb and spend big bucks to develop a turbo system for our year cars.I say with the availiable superchargers that are on the market now,which makes it so simple to really turn up the wick,do we go the road less traveled.The feeling Im getting ,and It might just be me,is that,for some reason,some seen to think the turbo is the ultimate power adder.My thinking is at the power level most here are contemplating of running,there are superchargers on the market to very much fill that need indeed.There are 7 second Turbos and there are 7 sec centrificals,from what Ive seen,sorry though,I doubt anyone here is shooting for these levels by any means,And then it seems after this range,the faster are using the good old standby roots blowers.You have versions of each brought to the edge of extreme,and each day the boundries are stretched,by each adder,but no real winner is crowned.I guess Im getting this feeling because of the other post about the twin turbos.GMI fast was giving his info to some who were interested in putting turbos on their car,Im not saying turbos are not a good choice,but what Im getting at is turbos are not as I see for everyone.Seems that you need to really know what you are doing to put together a system,and the resources to to it.Looks like some will go in way over their heads if they intend to jump into it with no set plan,bringing up my point.If you are looking into turbos,and dont really know what you are doing or talking about,you are better off getting a centrifical supercharger kit already designed for your car,because at this point,most if not all turbo kits for our year cars are all going to be custom and expensive and most likly you will have to pay someone to design it and install it.So getting back to the point that someone might install turbos not matched to your engine and alot of things will result such as wasted time and money,lack of performance,and maybe engine damage.So I agree with GMI that you cant just pull a turbo off say a 80's lebaron and say,well if one is good 2 must be better,I can bet things are not even close to being that simple,as with everything in the world of motorsports.Well thats my 2 cents,maybe a little more Responses appreciated

 

Different strokes....


Fabrication and originallity are an integral part of hot rodding.

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Tracy /AKA IROCKZ4me

• 355 cid
• AFR heads
• Arizona Speed & Marine hydraulic roller cam w/ AFR hydra-rev kit
• modified SLP runners
• TRW forged pistons/ceramic coated
• fully balanced
• Edelbrock headers/ceramic coated
• SLP cat-back
• Paxton supercharger
• Nitrous Express nitrous oxide

My IROC-Z
EFI Performance Club on Yahoo

 

Darren,

Some people just want to be different -- unique is the word I'm thinking of. I for one, am like this to an extent. I mean who in their right mind would want to supercharge a 305? I'm not the only one, but I admit we are a minority.

Willie

 

oh i hear ya on this one. i too get aggravated but dont say anything because i dont want to start a war. i too am going the turbo route for a few reasons. I really have always loved turbos and want one. also there is no belt to fly off and turbos mph like a ****** but seriously....i am building a race car, there is not if ands or buts about and for what i am shooting for...i would probably need the D-2R but i like the turbos better. i plan to have a 8 second car. it is going to cost me about $20k but that is not minus the money i get for selling things like my current blower or TPI setup which is hot right now. i mean i know what i am getting into and have a complete date plan of about three years. i know i could go with nitrous or blowers, but i really like the turbos. also, with that big of a blower i have priced it out it isn't really that cheaper because everything else stays the same. the expensive block, pistons, rods, crank, custom intercooler, the routing, etc. it is seriously not that much cheaper.
hope this helps you out...i too feel the same way and sometimes you just have to let people make their own mistakes.
ps how's the car coming and do you have anymore pics?

 

Darren, another word you could use for these people that want to use turbo's would be "eccentric"...
But there is one small plus side to using a turbo that noboby has mentioned yet...it's totally efficient, being that it is exhaust driven, not stealing any horsepower..and you have to admit, from the pics i've seen, it looks just as impressive as a supercharger (when done right of course)...also I believe a turbo life expectancy is better than a supercharger, I've replaced turbo's on diesel engine's that have had 500,000+ miles on them...with absolutely no maintenance to the unit (just changing the engine oil every 10,000 miles)...all the while running at times in excess of 1000° f. exhaust temps...
And still knowing all this I love my D1sc!!!
oh yeah...thanks for the .02 ...i'll put it towards whatever break first on my car
later,


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MÅN¡ÅÇ ©
88 IROC 5.7L,edelbrock TES,random tech cat,borla exhaust,chip,sfc,accel wires,airfoil,k&n's,ETC..
and soon to be supercharged
http://maniac.megamania.com

 

Darren/Larry,

You guys aren't going to believe this.... My D1SC kit shipped via FedEx Thursday. I decided to pay the extra to have it overnighted so I would have it Friday, instead of having to wait past the holiday weekend and get it Tuesday. Well....

For some unknown reason, the package lay dormant in Ft. Worth for over 16 hours. I called FedEd to ask what was going on. It turns out that it got stuck in some corner and forgotten about. After my inquiry, it was on the move again, this time on its way to Phoenix. It arrived in Phoenix and was scanned as a "departure" at 10:28pm Friday night. That was cool with me even though I should have received it by 3pm Friday because now I get my shipping cost reimbursed ($123). Being only 90 miles away from Phoenix, I assumed I would get it today (Saturday). It is now 3pm Saturday afternoon and my package has yet to be scanned since leaving Phoenix..... IT IS LOST. So I do not know what's going to happen next. Consider yourselves lucky that you both got yours, including all the "returns". Consider me totally bummed.

Willie

 

Wow, how the hell can you lose a box that is over 4 ft long, 2ft tall and 2 ft wide!!!!
I guess you just can't get good help these days....
later,

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MÅN¡ÅÇ ©
88 IROC 5.7L,edelbrock TES,random tech cat,borla exhaust,chip,sfc,accel wires,airfoil,k&n's,ETC..
and soon to be supercharged
http://maniac.megamania.com

 

chirp,chirp,chirp,

Wow! who is this other than the lost Mr.Sunshine.

Hello fellas most of you prolly don't remember me but I am one of those crazy ProCharged 305 lovers.

how are ya Darren ,

Willie, we are a growing group.

I would love to have a D series blower on my car. then I can turn my pistons inside out!


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No more mods to come!

91 Black Pearl Z
5 spd
low miles
9psi ProCharger
3 row intercooler
paxton BTM(MSD)
MSD blaster2
ROH Snipers
Drilled rotors
350rwhp/400rwftlbs 305 Baby!

The Darkside

 

Willie,I dont think you have to worry,like Maniac said that package is big and weighs about 90lbs,the only way they are gonna lose it is if it drops off the back of the truck.When I ordered my P600B kit I was in the exact same predicament as you.I ordered 2 day but 2 days went by and no package.It was a big hassle and no one knew where my package was,the tracking # they gave me was not active.So here I was pissed as hell cause I wanted to install it during my 2 week vacation.A week goes by,and I was so frustrated my mind was on other things,then Im on my porch and low and behold here comes the UPS man,Im estatic because I know whats hes got for me.The problem was It went ground,the # they gave me was never activated i guess because the package never left scanned with that #.So when you get it,they will refund your money most.Keep us posted definatly.

In relation to my post,yes Willie I would definatly be the last one to shoot down your or anyone wanted to go with a 305.I let you in on a secret,I begged and pleaded and tryed to convince my friend with his 86 TPI with the 305 to go with it and build it up.He had a supercharger on it,Paxton with a cam on a stock block and went 13.2 at 105mph.But sadly he sucumed to the mighty stroker.But my what ifs will be answered with you Willie,I am very interested to see your outcome.He kept reading about strokers and such and sucumed sadly.Im sure you know of the 305 in my area which runs 9s with a Vortech,even this would not sway him.

Larry,yes the turbos look very overpowering on a smallblock,but oh man when I finally got my D1 on my car I almost ****ted,compared to the look of my previous P600B,my D1 now owns my engine bay,it steals the show from my Miniram and AFRs.Willie I know will be siched by the look,it is massive,and commands attention The Regals and T-Types I think is what brought the turbos into the spotlight,unbeliavable fast for such small displacment.

I still dont see a clear winner in drag racing with either 2.Maniac told me he is a Diasel mechanic,and I was thinking when he mentioned about the Diesels,one other thing to think about.Im shooting in the dark here,but am pretty sure Im right,here goes,Diesals are torque monsters and dont pull high rpms,hence a turbos builds boost right off the throttle,simaler to why roots was used on diesals they move a lot of air every revolution hence they dont need to be spun fast because diesals dont rpm high at all.Would a turbo on the street,be prone to hurting parts more easily or readily because of the tremendous down low boost they are capable of generating?Because Centrificals are geared they are set in the way they develop boost,I have heard this thinking but I dont agree.Hers why,when I had my P600B,I could be rolling 30-40 in drive making no boost,nail the throttle and have 5-6 lbs right there,instantly,then It would build gradually up to 9 as the rpms reached 5500,my redline,but was making 9lbs before 5500 and it would stay there after every gear change at the strip.Here is one tidbit I found very interesting,something I heard about a Centrifical supercharged car that went against a turboed one in one of the mustang classes.The centrifical car was said to outpowered not by much but he was,the turbo was on a tear,favorite to win.Then it happens,centrifical car is quick in the burnout box,stages fast and waits for the turbo,I guess from what I was reading the turbo guy didnt have enough time to stage and build some boost off the line for a good launch,he ended up getting beat,by quick thinking on the other guys part.I guess thats why they are not used by Top fuel because of the fast paced action of the race,it moves way to fast to be waiting around for boost to build.Correct me if Im wrong

 

Darren, you're right. I just feel like a little kid who missed out on Christmas... know what I mean? I was so eager to start installing it on my car this holiday weekend... I've been spending my time venting by doing landscaping work on my backyard. Not to brag, but it's been in the 70's here.

Yeah, that's the good side to this whole thing. I'll get reimbursed for all the shipping, which was about $123.

I will definitely keep you up to date on what happens. Hopefully, it will be found Tuesday, Jan 2 (probably got stuck on the wrong truck and hauled someplace else, like California).

All in all, 2000 was very good to me. I guess I really can't complain too much. I hope 2001 will be as good. Happy New Year guys!!!

Willie


[This message has been edited by Willie (edited December 31, 2000).]

 

I'm alittle late on the whole supercharger vs turbo and why thing but I do want to add this.

I remember my freind(who is a freind to Preston Smith,the 9 second 305 IROC),saying when he went from a supercharger to a turbo it was like going from carb to fuel injection.I love that quote.

Steve

 

TTA850,Have you heard from Preston latly?Its been almost a year since he switched,and to top high 9s its gonna be tough.I still think both equal out with there pros and cons,nitrous included.I still think neither of the 3 has a distinct advantage over the other.A quote from Ligenfelters book says this best"There are no free lunches in this world"So true especially in this hobby.

I know haow you feel Willie,I felt horrible when It happened to me.Just one thing though,you said they scanned it Friday night,I know that in my area they never deliver on the weekends,maybe you will see it Tuesday,Wed the latest,holidays screwing everything up.

 

PROCHARGED89Z,

I can add some to this. the cintrifical blowers and turbos are very similar in how they make power but as stated in another post they are much more efficiant there for make more HP per pound of boost than a blower does. Another good thing about them is they are MUCH easier on engine parts than any other power adder on the market. In the NMCA and NSCA secutes the turbo guys are running the entire season on the same motor without haveing to do anything other than chaing the oil where the nitrous and blower guys are replacing motors like there is no tomorrow. Something you said struck me as odd though you were comparing the cost of a super charger to a turbo and wondering why anyone would want to go with a turbo well the same could be said about superchargers and nitrous. A nitrous system is a quarter of the cost of a blower (in some cases even less than that) and can produce just as much power but not be straining your motor all the time, just when you want it to...lol. Me personaly, I could not afford a blower if I had to. I can build an entire car (including buying it in the first place) for what a blower set up costs so they are of no interest to me. If I ever was able to get one and it messed up like thay are known to do I could not afford to replace it. So you see it is not a money thing to go with a blower or a turbo set up it is more of a desire to be different (at least in a street driven car). As far as a race car goes the initial cost of a turbo set up may be more but in the long run they seem to be much less expencive than any other power adder on the market. Also they have gotten them now where they can build boost much quicker which is making them harder and harder to beat at the track. There is a guy here in Dallas (Gene Griffith) area that runs a 67 Camaro with a twin turbo small block and runs in the low 5's to high 4's in the 1/8 mile and is cutting close to perfect lights against a .400 pro tree. Here is a pic of his car.
<IMG SRC = "http://www.racemsra.com/1517.jpg">


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82 Z28 with 350.motor has .030 forged flat top pistions other wise stock bottom end, Summit 214/224 cam with 1.6 Harland Sharp roller rockers, stock 882 heads for now (will be getting a set of the 23 degree Trick Flows this summer), Performer RPM intake, Holley 750 Vacuum secondary, Th350 with 2200 converter, stock 3.23 geared rearend for now (getting 9" later on), Headman shorty headers, custom 2.5" into 3.5" Y pipe into M.A.C. offroad pipe and M.A.C. cat back system. So far car has only been to the track twice and is having sever traction problems but is running 60'-2.34 1/8 mile-9.2 @ 79 MPH.

 

Here is the some of the advantages to each.
Turbos:Max HP, Overall Power Curve, Pound for pound boost NO equal, Low exhaust noise,Very little HP used to operate(Exhaust backpreasure), Very simple to adjust boost, Get a couple(or so) extra pounds of boost on gear change, Very reliable. There is NO front main bearing wear due to tight SC Belt. Low rear end gears are not needed, sinced boost in not based on RPM. There may be a point (low rpm) where a SC has some boost and a turbo has not spooled up yet(lag), but as soon as it has it has MAX BOOST.The hardest thing to get a turbo car to do is launch right.Getting the torque converter right is a must. Where one is loose enough to build boost QUICKLY at the starting line and tight enough at the big end.If you run a standard then NO staging problems except hooking it.
SuperCharger advantages:
Easier to install(bolt on kits),Easier to stage, Can almost make as much power as Turbos. Cool loud whine all the time.I think it would be easier to feather the gas (if you need to regain traction). Simple to bypass if needed to be.Alot less plumbing under the hood.Cooler under the hood temps. Better throttle response.

This is just my opinion though, I am in the process of building my own TT Z28. The cost is pretty close if not cheaper than a LARGE SC(D2,D3 etc..) and intercooler if you can build your own Stainless Steel headers.

Happy Hew Year Everybody I hope 2001 brings many pounds of boost for everyone.

 

Good posts guys.I fully understand that if going the turbo route the expense is not that much considering you are building a whole car,primarily strip car for that reason.But,most here drive their cars on the street,are everyday drivers,and the like.This is my point ,I guess I should have made it much clearer.I refered to the previous post about twin turbos,because it struck me so oddly.For a new commer,from what Ive read from some posts,people are way underestimating the impact of actually considering the cost and installation of such a system.My point is,at what most,and Ill go out on a limb and say,90% or more here,are really pushing for times,any,and I mean any off the shelf blower will definatly support such a hp level.Novaguy76,that camaro twin turbo is a good example of how much power can be had,but this car is pushing way more than 90% of what anyone here would expect to have.If your car is all out strip,disregard my comments,but to run what that guy is running ,a cost for twin trubo setup is miniscule to what he has into his car,im very sure.For someone who has a stock bodied camaro,firebird,I can see no other,self installed,bang for the buck mod as a supercharger,besides nitrous.I still see no big gap between either the centrifical superchargers or the turbos,in terms of the classes Ive seen&read run,especially the mustang shootouts.I think the centrifical have their place as do the turbos,like saying not one is better than the other.For someone who wants a power adder,and not nitrous,supercharging is a phone call away,not a 2 year garage project like a turbo would be.Oh turbos would be a very good choice,it would be my first choice,above my D1,but the big ? is that no one make a system I can put in myself,im not gonna dump thousands on one off piping and fitment parts,and guess away on what works,and what doesent.If someone made a kit,yes it would very well be worth it,but as with everything us thirdgens get the scraps after a couple of years,and it makes me sick when I see a turbos kit for the new Ls1s and not for our years,our engine bay compared to the new ones warrents enough room to do such a project,but no has tried to mass market a kit,why?Guess we will have to wait a few years for somone to look our way.
What is the cost of a complete turbos kit,if you were to pay somone to make most of it,like header(single turbo)or duels?I saw prices of about 7-$800 for a single header,+ intercooler& piping+turbo,and then the micilanious stuff.Here my cheap way to go turbo,if i was,first you would have to pay someone for the header,no way around this,if your talented enough,even better.Id just use my current 3 core ATI system,I dont know why anyone looking for a complete turbo system,and looking for a intercooler system doesnt look into this setup,it fits well under the nose,and sheetmetal upgrade is availible.Well,Ive run out of things to say,Im going to bed

 

Hey guys , I havent been to thirdgen in a long while , but the imput I would like to add is , always remember what ever you do to your car it has a recipricol effect .Nothing is flawless , there is always a trade off. So when arguing the sc vs turbo , it really boils down to different strokes for different folks. Personaly I run a vortech on my 88 GTA 305tpi , and I do this because I want to. I chose the blower because I wanted and easy non fabraction power increase. I also like that i have a 305 that can move pretty well, there is nothing like looks on peoples faces after they either drive it or fall into its taillights and you tell them after that it is a 305. I am in school for automotive tech and next year i have to do a complete rebuild and will probaly construct a new motor for my car, I will probaly build a 350 since parts are alot easier to come by but we will see. I like to be different so maybe if i had the time , money , and facilities maybe i would have fabracated a turbo setup , but as it has been said by many including my friend 89procarged ,darren, the kits are easier to install, well if all the stuff is there and the directions are complete ...right darren, and good on power increases. just wanted to add my .02 , this may give some of you guys .04 now......you can put it to the turbo works...

 

Procharged89Z,I understand what your trying to say.But in my opinion blowers are the ones that should more track oriented,turbo's are perfect for the street.

Take this into consideration,a V6(231,3.8)Firebird(GTA)with a/c,automatic overdrive trans with a lockup converter(3200 stall),full interior,full weight(well,3300 with the 6),with stock bottom end(steel caps and a girdle)and stock(fully ported)iron heads that gets 24 mpg and runs high 9's in the quarter mile.

That is a prime example of what a turbo can do to a street car,and it's what my GTA will be by next summer.I know it'll work cause my freind did it in his lightweight(3300 lbs)GN and ran a 9.90(GTA should be a little faster).

And a streetcar it is,I will be driving it from NY to Bowling Green,KY(GS Nats)and Bristol,TN(BOP Nats) run mid 10's or so at each event(takin it easyon it,I gotta make it home)and drive back,a/c on,24mpg.

That my freinds is what a Turbo can do with a lil'6,imagine the streetable power it can make with a V8,and the cost isn't way out there either.Most of the people that wanna do it want twin turbos,a single will more than do the job and cut costs in a big way.There are single turbos out there that can provide enough air to put a car in the 7's.Second consideration is selling parts you will not use to offset the cost,turbo's require replacing parts where a supercharger is simply an add on and there is nothing to remove and sell.

I'm a big fan of turbos and the way I figure it,for what it would cost to build a blown L98 into the 11's I could swap in a 3.8 Turbo and go just as fast,and it would cost me less to continue to go faster from that point on.Again,offset the expense by selling unused parts and it really works out well.To top it off,the 3.8 will be alot more steetable at that point.

I guess my point is Turbos are the way to go if you want to run racecar numbers in a true streetcar.

Steve

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TTA#124-129,bone stock.Cloth/T-Top Festival car
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TGTA#01,nowhere near stock,9's or bust
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