welding cast iron help...
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Re: welding cast iron help...
3 - How to do it well: Welding Cast Iron to Mild Steel
Q: - How should one weld Cast Iron to Mild Steel?
A: - Cast Iron is an alloy of iron, carbon and silicon. Other elements may be added for special purposes.
- Gray Cast Iron, is probably the most common type. With slow cooling, its excess carbon solidifies as flakes of graphite. Its chief advantages are easy machinability, good damping capacity (to absorb vibrations) and relatively low cost. It is divided in further classes according to typical mechanical properties. Some types highly alloyed and with improved mechanical properties can be considered unweldable.
- Ductile Iron, due to special additions to its chemical composition, presents graphite in spheroidal form and has the highest strength and ductility of unalloyed cast irons.
- Malleable Iron is obtained with a long and specific annealing treatment that transforms iron carbides from white cast iron into irregularly shaped graphite nodules.
- White iron, that is produced by rapid cooling from the solidification temperature, contains most of its iron carbides untransformed, is very hard and brittle and practically unweldable.
Cleanliness and weld preparation are always most important. It is known that welding might produce brittle structures and in general reduce the mechanical properties of cast iron. However successful welds can be performed for useful purposes if one acknowledges the limitation introduced by the processes.
A successful welding process should not cause the formation of cracks during or after welding and should not introduce harmful or excessive residual stresses.
There is not a single welding process capable of welding successfully any conceivable combination of iron castings and steel. Furthermore one cannot point to a single filler metal rod or electrode to cover all possible cases. Therefore the problem is not simple.
Furthermore small iron castings behave differently from large and massive cast pieces. The mass has a great influence on the self quenching capacity of the parts and on the cooling rate after welding, directly affecting the obtained structures.
Any welding process produces two zones that undergo important structural transformations:
- The weld metal is that portion of base and filler material that were melted by the welding heat, were thoroughly mixed and then solidified quite rapidly. The resulting structure is mainly a function of composition. As the dilution of cast iron into the melt contributes a large proportion of carbon that is responsible for the hard and brittle phases resulting during solidification, due attention should always be employed to melt the minimum amount of cast iron.
- The heat affected zone although not melted, was heated to high temperature by the nearby weld heat. Most of its carbon, that was in form of graphite, went into solution in the phase called austenite. Upon rapid cooling this carbon enriched austenite transforms to the hard phase martensite, which is brittle and susceptible to cracking.
Preheat will also control the structure of the weld metal itself to the point that the formation of martensite is minimized or avoided at all.
However, small castings can be welded sometimes without preheat if the results are acceptable. Alternative techniques consist in welding thin and short beads. The heat from subsequent welding beads temper the hard structures generated by previous ones.
To reduce and redistribute residual stresses, peening of the still hot bead with a rounded ballpeen hammer should be performed. Further weld passes contribute to interpass heating that helps in preventing too rapid cooling.
In general one should try to heat to the least possible peak temperature, to introduce the minimum heat, using small electrodes and low currents, to apply suitable preheat, to control interpass temperature and to study the performance of different types of filler material until the satisfactory selection is found.
The consumables available for welding cast iron are quite varied. Filler Metals of different types can be used for welding cast iron to mild steel. The selection should be based on ease of performance and on the acceptable results achieved. Once the main factors are understood and taken care of, practice and trials can tell which is the most economic and best solution for any particular case.
When using SMAW, the steel electrode (ESt) will give a very hard weld, non machinable, useful only for very small repairs.
Standard low hydrogen electrodes like E7018 have been used successfully, provided they were dried thoroughly to minimize moisture content. Even iron powder containing electrodes like E7024 were employed with good results.
Cast Iron electrodes (E-CI) with about 2.0%C, provide a structure similar to that of gray cast iron: the weld metal is likely to harden unless proper provisions are put in place.
For difficult cases conducive to cracks, using Ni-Fe electrodes (ENiFe-CI or ENiFe-CIA) with about 50 %Ni- 50% Fe is probably the best selection for the dissimilar welding of cast iron to mild steel, although not the most economic.
If a more ductile or machinable weld must be obtained, high nickel electrodes (more expensive) can be tried, like ENi-CI or ENi-CIA, that will result in a soft, ductile and machinable deposit.
If a more strong weld is needed, for example for nodular irons of elevated mechanical properties, ENiFeMn-CI can be used, where the addition of manganese improves strength, ductility and resistance to cracks.
The electrodes included in the AWS Specification A5.15 are not the only ones available. Proprietary electrodes, not classified with AWS, are available with improved properties for special applications. In difficult cases it may be worth to seek advice from electrode manufacturers, to experiment and to check results.
For certain production lines, higher deposition rates than those available by SMAW (with covered electrodes) may be preferable. In these cases GMAW (Mig) has been applied successfully, especially for ductile or malleable iron.
The wire composition is similar to that used with covered electrodes. Steel wires of types ER70S-3 and ER70S-6 have been used and also ERNiFe-CI. Also nickel containing wires (high nickel, nickel-iron, nickel-iron-manganese) are being used. All other precautions should be in place as necessary.
This presentation would not be complete without including also the solutions that employ the oxyacetylene flame. The slower heating rate of this process causes a larger heat affected zone to form but effectively avoids the development of brittle martensitic structure. Consumables are cast rods with higher levels of carbon and silicon than the castings.
RCI, RCI-A and RCI-B are used respectively for gray cast iron, higher strength alloyed iron, and for malleable and ductile iron. Suitable fluxes must be used to protect the molten metal from oxidation. Preheating must be provided. Slow cooling must be ensured.
Besides welding, in certain cases it would be useful to consider also braze- welding as a possible solution. See Braze Welding.
Here the filler metal is copper base and the cast iron is not melted. Less heat, less distortion, less cracking, machinable filler metal and generally adequate strength is provided. The most serious difficulty, that may sometime prevent its adoption, is the color mismatch of the braze-welded joint.
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Re: welding cast iron help...
are you welding sumthing to the manifold or patching a hole?
ive alwaysed brased a hole shut.
ive alwaysed brased a hole shut.
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Re: welding cast iron help...
junkcltr did the same exact thing you are trying to do on his 2nd gen, maybe search his posts, but I recall he heated the manifold to 450* and stick welded the flange on.
What type of welder were you hoping to use?
What type of welder were you hoping to use?
Last edited by firstfirebird; Jan 3, 2010 at 09:08 PM.
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Re: welding cast iron help...
I have 220v mig and a 220v ac stick welder.
I've foound pic's of junkcltr manifolds but see him say anything about the welding.
pic in post #9
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...-have-few.html
I've foound pic's of junkcltr manifolds but see him say anything about the welding.
pic in post #9
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...-have-few.html
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Re: welding cast iron help...
I didn't have a stick/arc welder and never did arc welding when I made those manifolds. I researched the "proper" way to weld cast iron and found the most reliable way to do it. There are many ways to get it done, but I wanted the most reliable. That involved pre-heating, nickel rod, and post-cooling.
The preferred method for nickel rod is DC+ / DC reverse. So I put the word out that I was looking for a used stick welder. I ended up with an old AC/DC stick welder that sat outside for years. It was missing the power cord and was unknown if it worked. I loaded it in the truck and brought it home. At worst, copper is worth something. I made some 6 foot leads from a left over inverter install and vice-gripped a 6011 rod to it. I bought a short piece of 6/4 cable and plug for the wall plug. After some WD40 on the controls........it worked perfect. Long story for saying that junk works.
I gathered up some walk-way brick, an old road grate, some fire wood, a cook temp. gauge from wal-wart, and a bag of speedy dry. I lit the fire with the gauge on the grate propped above the fire. I heated the manifolds to 450* F and did the welding. I would pull the manifold from above the fire and weld a bead and peen (this is important). Then put it back on the fire, then another bead and peen. I also had a bunch of brick on the grate heated to 450* F.
Once all the welding was done I made a block setup with the heated brick and put the manifolds in it. Then poured on pre-heated speedy-dry. I let it cool over night.
You need a stick welder. AC or DC+ will work.
Get some 60% nickel rod (weldingsupply.com seems like a good source)
patio block, fire pit.
I did two sets of manifolds. Both have been glowing red numerous times. All is good so far. I have about 20K miles combined on them. Not a lot, but I don't for see any problems. I would have more miles, but I keep blowing transmissions.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I practiced with some 6011 rod before trying to do the nickel rod. Nickel rod welds much easier.
The preferred method for nickel rod is DC+ / DC reverse. So I put the word out that I was looking for a used stick welder. I ended up with an old AC/DC stick welder that sat outside for years. It was missing the power cord and was unknown if it worked. I loaded it in the truck and brought it home. At worst, copper is worth something. I made some 6 foot leads from a left over inverter install and vice-gripped a 6011 rod to it. I bought a short piece of 6/4 cable and plug for the wall plug. After some WD40 on the controls........it worked perfect. Long story for saying that junk works.
I gathered up some walk-way brick, an old road grate, some fire wood, a cook temp. gauge from wal-wart, and a bag of speedy dry. I lit the fire with the gauge on the grate propped above the fire. I heated the manifolds to 450* F and did the welding. I would pull the manifold from above the fire and weld a bead and peen (this is important). Then put it back on the fire, then another bead and peen. I also had a bunch of brick on the grate heated to 450* F.
Once all the welding was done I made a block setup with the heated brick and put the manifolds in it. Then poured on pre-heated speedy-dry. I let it cool over night.
You need a stick welder. AC or DC+ will work.
Get some 60% nickel rod (weldingsupply.com seems like a good source)
patio block, fire pit.
I did two sets of manifolds. Both have been glowing red numerous times. All is good so far. I have about 20K miles combined on them. Not a lot, but I don't for see any problems. I would have more miles, but I keep blowing transmissions.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I practiced with some 6011 rod before trying to do the nickel rod. Nickel rod welds much easier.
Last edited by junkcltr; Jan 3, 2010 at 09:08 PM.
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Re: welding cast iron help...
Thanks for the correction junk. On a side note, finally got me a TIG, not hooked up yet (searching for a used tank and maybe some 6/3 for extension). 300amp Miller Syncro. Hope you had good holidays
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Re: welding cast iron help...
Actually, I would have liked to get the temp. higher. The best I could do was 450-600* F. It averaged around 500* F, and 450*F was the min.
Wow, nice first TIG machine. Good luck on finding a tank. Every time I call or email on one I am a day too late. I ended up renting the larger bottle, but still keep my eye out for one to buy. You will be able to weld just about anything with that box. I had a great Christmas and I hope you did also. I wish you and your loved ones a great 2010.
I used about 6 rods doing both manifolds. I think there was about 10-15 1/8" rods in a 1 lb. buy for about $20. Your 220v AC arc welder should do it just fine. People have gotten away with MIG welding them, but I didn't want to take the chance. The manifolds in that pic are on a 425-450 FWHP engine at 9 PSI.
Wow, nice first TIG machine. Good luck on finding a tank. Every time I call or email on one I am a day too late. I ended up renting the larger bottle, but still keep my eye out for one to buy. You will be able to weld just about anything with that box. I had a great Christmas and I hope you did also. I wish you and your loved ones a great 2010.
I used about 6 rods doing both manifolds. I think there was about 10-15 1/8" rods in a 1 lb. buy for about $20. Your 220v AC arc welder should do it just fine. People have gotten away with MIG welding them, but I didn't want to take the chance. The manifolds in that pic are on a 425-450 FWHP engine at 9 PSI.
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Re: welding cast iron help...
Thanks junkcltr, I was thinken of heatting it with a big blow torch( i hace a heat gun i can keep track of the temp), weld it then rap it in insilation. My consern is worping the manifold. I'm welding the flang in the middle of the manifold.
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Re: welding cast iron help...
The manifolds I started with were a little warped to begin with. They didn't move when I welded them or they moved very little. Once they cooled I put them in the vice and used some 80 grit emery on a 2 foot level.
It took about 1 hour per manifold to get them flat. That is with taking breaks. I once did body work so hours of sanding is normal to me. You could bring them to a machine shop to have them do it on a machine. I was worried that they might screw them up so I did it myself by hand.
EDIT: Just make sure you heat the entire manifold if you use the torch. My manifolds were flat enough I could get away with no gaskets, but I use the Percy carbon fiber XXX gaskets. They are thin though and need a relatively flat surface.
It took about 1 hour per manifold to get them flat. That is with taking breaks. I once did body work so hours of sanding is normal to me. You could bring them to a machine shop to have them do it on a machine. I was worried that they might screw them up so I did it myself by hand.
EDIT: Just make sure you heat the entire manifold if you use the torch. My manifolds were flat enough I could get away with no gaskets, but I use the Percy carbon fiber XXX gaskets. They are thin though and need a relatively flat surface.
Last edited by junkcltr; Jan 3, 2010 at 10:43 PM.
Re: welding cast iron help...
Thanks junk
Hope new year is good to you and your family.
I have a large belt sander I use often for header to head and 3 bolt flanges to make them flat after welding (specially if the primaries are welded on the inside), have used them up to 12psi with no gaskets and no leaks.
Hope new year is good to you and your family.I have a large belt sander I use often for header to head and 3 bolt flanges to make them flat after welding (specially if the primaries are welded on the inside), have used them up to 12psi with no gaskets and no leaks.
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Re: welding cast iron help...
Lincoln also makes Ferroweld rod for welding cast iron. I bought a lb. to fix an old stove. It is cheap at $6 per lb.
I don't know how well it will work on something like exh. manifolds.
I don't know how well it will work on something like exh. manifolds.
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Re: welding cast iron help...
Thanks junk
Hope new year is good to you and your family.
I have a large belt sander I use often for header to head and 3 bolt flanges to make them flat after welding (specially if the primaries are welded on the inside), have used them up to 12psi with no gaskets and no leaks.
Hope new year is good to you and your family.I have a large belt sander I use often for header to head and 3 bolt flanges to make them flat after welding (specially if the primaries are welded on the inside), have used them up to 12psi with no gaskets and no leaks.
Re: welding cast iron help...
Wow, that's really bad to be out 1/4" in what 20"?
Friend of mine moved across the state last year, best welder I have seen (now of course he isn't here to help me learn the TIG), but he could actually control the metal while he was welding - amazed me. If he saw something starting to warp, he new just where to put the heat to make it straight/square. He had one specific job I'll probably never forget seeing - it was basically welding the head of a pin to the inside of a washer, something for the medical field. Those really tiny perfect rows of nickels was just cool to see - used a rotary jig, can't imagine how difficult it would be to have another foot pedal controlling the speed of it on top of the other foor and both hands operating the TIG action.
The sander is nothing special, but I have used the tar out of it since inheriting it from my father in law. It's 6" x 36" belt (w/7" disk) and the poor thing has been riged to death and keeps on kicking. Ive even used it with some finer paper to make stuff looked brushed after machning/fabrication, and LOVE using it to straighten out the ends of a mandrel bend so they fit nice and flush to one another - can even "cheat" a bend by sanding off a little of one side or another to make the bend go where I want and still meet up to the other nice and flat.
Can't wait to use the new welder, though, the headers I have been building with the flux core machine is just plain old lacking in the beauty dept. lol.
Here's the welder...
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...welder-qs.html
Here's the flux-core headers...
http://60degreev6.com/forum/f96/proj...375/post408705
The last company that was making FWD headers went under recently and people still want headers - figure I'll fill in the gap and maybe be able to keep paying rent on the new shop
Friend of mine moved across the state last year, best welder I have seen (now of course he isn't here to help me learn the TIG), but he could actually control the metal while he was welding - amazed me. If he saw something starting to warp, he new just where to put the heat to make it straight/square. He had one specific job I'll probably never forget seeing - it was basically welding the head of a pin to the inside of a washer, something for the medical field. Those really tiny perfect rows of nickels was just cool to see - used a rotary jig, can't imagine how difficult it would be to have another foot pedal controlling the speed of it on top of the other foor and both hands operating the TIG action.
The sander is nothing special, but I have used the tar out of it since inheriting it from my father in law. It's 6" x 36" belt (w/7" disk) and the poor thing has been riged to death and keeps on kicking. Ive even used it with some finer paper to make stuff looked brushed after machning/fabrication, and LOVE using it to straighten out the ends of a mandrel bend so they fit nice and flush to one another - can even "cheat" a bend by sanding off a little of one side or another to make the bend go where I want and still meet up to the other nice and flat.
Can't wait to use the new welder, though, the headers I have been building with the flux core machine is just plain old lacking in the beauty dept. lol.
Here's the welder...
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...welder-qs.html
Here's the flux-core headers...
http://60degreev6.com/forum/f96/proj...375/post408705
The last company that was making FWD headers went under recently and people still want headers - figure I'll fill in the gap and maybe be able to keep paying rent on the new shop
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Re: welding cast iron help...
I went to a welding suply store (shop stuff) and all they had for cast was rod labled "econocast" no nickal or nor(sp) rod, so i didn't get any. I'm going try another store tomaro
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Re: welding cast iron help...
I would try another store. Call first. If they are anything like my few LWS then they are not that bright and tough to deal with. I finally stopped dealing with them because it was that they usually had to order everything I needed and I had to do the research and hand them the part number. The web changed all that thankfully. They are great for getting argon, CO2, etc but that is about it.
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Re: welding cast iron help...
Strange. Most LWS have the nickel rod. My LWS had the 59% and 99% rod for about $25 / lb.
I would try another store. Call first. If they are anything like my few LWS then they are not that bright and tough to deal with. I finally stopped dealing with them because it was that they usually had to order everything I needed and I had to do the research and hand them the part number. The web changed all that thankfully. They are great for getting argon, CO2, etc but that is about it.
I would try another store. Call first. If they are anything like my few LWS then they are not that bright and tough to deal with. I finally stopped dealing with them because it was that they usually had to order everything I needed and I had to do the research and hand them the part number. The web changed all that thankfully. They are great for getting argon, CO2, etc but that is about it.

As for giveing store part #s, i have to do that 90% of the time
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Re: welding cast iron help...
LWS - local welding store. The welding forums always use that acronym.
EDIT: The last thing I bought from a LWS was a 50 amp wall plug. The guy pulls the bag off the shelf and hands it to me. I look inside the bag and say to him "This one is damaged. The plastic housing is smashed." He looks in the bag and says "Yes, it is broke". I asked for a good one and of course they are all out, but he can order me one in 3 days. He then puts the broken one back on the shelf to hand to someone else. How stupid to put it back on the shelf. How stupid not to have a good supply of 230v 50A plugs.
EDIT: The last thing I bought from a LWS was a 50 amp wall plug. The guy pulls the bag off the shelf and hands it to me. I look inside the bag and say to him "This one is damaged. The plastic housing is smashed." He looks in the bag and says "Yes, it is broke". I asked for a good one and of course they are all out, but he can order me one in 3 days. He then puts the broken one back on the shelf to hand to someone else. How stupid to put it back on the shelf. How stupid not to have a good supply of 230v 50A plugs.
Last edited by junkcltr; Jan 4, 2010 at 02:47 PM.
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