Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I am using an Innovate LM1 with DB pillar mount to monitor A/F.

This morning I used N20 at WOT with a 50-75HP shot with correct jetting per NOS and it went AE-PE showed 10.5/1-11.5/1(rich I know) and then on DB gauge I saw it spike to 22/1 shortly afterward. Then I got off the pedal and coasted. Went back to CL 15.0/1. When cruising I see normal A/F #'s on DB. First startup this morning all was normal wil LM-1 as well.

Think it is a real #? Or does the N20 in the ext stream mess with the WB?
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brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

the recommended jetting from NOS is rich, so that's expected, the 22:1 spike is odd.

check to be sure that your fuel side of the system is not clogged and that it is flowing properly.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

By coincidence I read a post by Ben73 and his WB log showed a spike to 22/1.
He hit rev limiter set to 6000. I believe mine is 6200. When I did the log I was concentrating on pillar WB gauge not tach. So I may have done exact same thing!

Yes I thought I had the shot set on rich side as well. In fact just B4 the 22/1 event it showed 11/1. No restrictions on fuel supply to best of my knowledge.

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I think that you hit the rev-limiter or the n2o shut off(or both)

Is your n2o on a window switch?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Both...

My ECU controls the N20. Neat huh?

On >30 mph
On at 3200 rpms

Off> 5800 rpms

Rev limiter shuts down spark >6200 rpms

N20 on it can pull whatever timing your choose. I have it set to 2 deg.

Would the N20 going off cause a spike? Why?

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

time to do some plug reading, but you're leaving a decent amount on the table running it that fat

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I run an analog style wideband gauge and never had a lean spike with nitrous going on or off, and i've been on the limiter before, but have the nitrous going off well before hitting the limiter. Even with the boosted motor and logging the wideband output i never seen a lean spike on the limiter.

Was it a possible glitch in the wideband output? Is it a digital gauge? It didnt drop out of PE mode did it?

Whats the plug gap? I doubt it blew out spark as you'd feel that but that would read lean. Misfires would read lean.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I agree it is fat. This was my 3rd WOT run since install. I fiqure about 50 HP shot on jetting.

Glitch? Possibly. However it never happened before in logging BLM data. And never happened prior to N20 install. PE was always rich commanded to 12.5/1 and I see on WB 12.1/1. The gauge-controller is set to average out the A/F so as to not be erratic on reporting. Innovate LM-1 with their digital gauge. I dont believe 22/1 is real A/F unless the fuel pump is failing?

I think the plug gap is .035.

Misfire? I could feel the car pulling real well. Never ran so well in PE since the install. MAP reads prior to N20 install were around 93 so my TB unit I believe was the restriction. N20 may have helped there. I am running the stock replacement Accel coil/module

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

what rpms did you run through and where did it occur? Do you have narrow band o2 sensor data to compare to?

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Yes, that is very neat. I have a 87 iroc with MAF...but it's supercharged and I need an easier way to tune this thing. Could you help there? UGH

87 ecm with MAF
FMU for more fp under boost
2 extra injectors for fuel enrichment....wow... and it makes 660rwhp on a 305


Anyway, IF the n20 flows for a little longer than the fuel, it could cause that. ESPECIALLY if the line length is short on fuel from 'noid to jet. Think about it like this... Once the cut, only fuel is left in the line... short line=short amount of fuel.

Honestly, with that small shot, I would try it again and see if it happens again(or use another wideband like at a dyno or something). The chances of a 50 shot hurting something is very slim anyway..

Fuel pump failing is also an issue....Having a FP gauge to watch during n20 would be a VERY good thing as well and would point to that or eliminate it all together. Although, when I see fuel pumps failing it is usually accompanied by backfiring and popping through the intake.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Problem I have is that for reasons I am unclear on I cannot save the .logs of the event. My LM1 holds the log but when I download successfully to laptop it does not save the log. I went to Forum on that and no one responds. so when I did the run I referred to I was watching pillar gauge not tach. This morning I did another run WOT in 3rd gear of 4 on xway and was able to see A/F at 11.0/1 and tach was at 4300 rpms and it went right to 22/1 which I believe is max it will show. so something is going on when the ext stream hits the WB sensor and maaybe cools it down too much? Just a guess... Otherwise the WB was flawless past two seasons.
Regardless motor runs very well anmnd the 50 stoot seat of pants is evident. So next step is to enlean the jetting one step and retry.

NB shows 850 in my datalogs.

Yea fuel pump/filter Q always comes up. Hard to say on that. It is Delco TPI pump about 8 seasons old.

I used stock NOS lines from noids to nozzle about 12 inch each.[IMG][/IMG]

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats weird. narrow band of 850 is lean but not 22 air fuel lean. Motor probably wouldnt run with true air fuel of 22 to 1.

Where is the WB sensor in relation to the head exhaust ports? Also where is the NB located?

Seems like the WB is dropping out.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I see 850-900 in my datalogs at WOT for NB withN20 on.

I had WB sensor failures when I first installed WB. That was 5 yeras ago. Then sensor was right after collector in ext pipe. After apparent heat induced failures I moved it back 18 inches and no failures. Past 3 seasons no issues.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Are you taking into account that the ideal air/fuel ratio for gasoline + oxygen + nitrous may not be the same ideal air/fuel ratio as gasoline + just oxygen?

zz17iroc

iTrader: (4)

I've had my LM1 for 7 years and I have went through 3 sensors, had the controller repaired about 4 years ago, and I at least recalibrate it once a month. But like Orr said I think your problem is with your controller or sensor.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

The A/F ratio is provided by NOS mfg in a chart form. It lists the gas and N20 jet combos for the fuel pressure I am running. So chart starts at 50 HP and goes up to 150 HP in increments of 25HP....I will guess they are suggesting safe at 12.0/1.

As far as LM-1 defective I am leaning that way. Now I will run WOT w/o the spray and see what happens.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Definately check the WOT run by itself. I would think if the motor DID go to over 20 to 1 air fuel , it wouldnt have ran and would have instantly broke up and ran poorly.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

What ECM are you using to control it? What code?

Did it go to 20:1 while you were still at WOT? 2 things that I can think of is if you it a factory style limiter it would have dropped injector pulses, or some ECM's drop pulses when you close the throttle.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

EBL-ECU... dynamicefi.com.... EBL.xdf

My post this AM. "This morning I did another run WOT in 3rd gear of 4 on xway and was able to see A/F at 11.0/1 and tach was at 4300 rpms and it went right to 22/1 which I believe is max it will show."

This morning car was still pulling after 22/1 event so it had fuel.

so not hitting rev limiter(6200) nor is ECU cutting the spray(5800).

Must be sensor failure. Time will tell.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Sensor overheating??

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I learned more today. I have only one place to do a safe WOT. So this AM on way to work I attempeted what I thought was on motor only no spray. 3rd gear 45 mph I went WOT. I saw 10.5/1 then motor went blaaah for lack of a better word and went to 22/1 max lean AFR in Innovate WB. I then thought fuel delivery failure at max demand/load. WRONG. It was that I had bottle off but arm switch on. So I got a healthy dose of fuel. Now I am thinking is that with a spray I am very very heavy on fuel due to NOS jetting recommedation chart and insufficient # of jets. I will do another WOT this PM with arming switch off and see what happens.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If its goin pig rich I wouldnt expect to see it go lean like that in any case. Even if the rich mixture cooled the o2 sensor too much, i thought it woud default to max rich or 10.0 to 1. My Lc1 does this.
If its overheating then maybe but the exhaust gas on overly rich like that shouldnt be hot, unless its burning off in the exhaust pipe.

Definately need a WOT motor only run to check.

Try using 50 hp fuel jets with the 75 hp nitrous shot jets. On my HSW setup, I ran 75 fuel jets and 150 hp nitrous jets to get air fuel between 11.5 and 12.0 depending on bottle pressure. Thats as lean as you want to go on a shot like that I would think.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

What if I am getting incomplete conbustion due to pig rich?

Is not a possibility it is reading 02 that is not being consumed in combustion process?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That may happen too if its pulling some timing and too rich. It will throw off the wideband results and the narrowband as well. Verify all motor performance, then try jetting down the fuel or jetting up the spray to see if you cant lean it out some. Its starting out at 10.5 to 1 air fuel, thats already rich.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

If I was going to add code to the ECM to control N2O I would write it so there is a programmable delay between turning the fuel inj. BPW up or fuel sol on before the N2O sol.
Same with the turning off the N2O sol (lag time).

So, assuming the designer did this. What is the programmed delay times you put in to ensure that the N2O is not hanging around on for a little while with the fuel reduced?

Solenoid wires near the WBO2 wires causing a glitch (V = L(dI/dT)) ?

What AFR are you targeting when the N2O is active? N2O AFR is different than N/A AFR.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If this is a wet kit, wouldnt you just command same target AFR for n/a and let the jetting add the extra fuel for the spray based on wideband results?

I can see where you may want a tad bit of delay between nitrous activation and fuel solenoid activation to prevent any overly rich stumble when first spraying, but too much delay can be dangerous...nitrous coming out the nozzle at over 900 psi moves very quickly.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

The wiring dictates both solenoids open same time as they are on a common feed from relay. Designer is RBob....

Near WB wires? 12V switched ign is shared between the WB power and the N20 system.
That is it. Sensor runs from counsel storage box to pass side. No electrical interference there.

Target A/F. to start I would like to see 11.5/1.......I have only hit the bottle like 5 times now.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

UPDATE...

Ride home 9.30.10 from office it was noticibly popping out ext and WB dipped to 16.0/1 with no spray. Lost power and I presumed fuel punp failing. Lucky for me I was able to make to my mechanics shop. At his shop we saw A/F move 14.7 to 17.0/1 on WB and cyclical. So awaiting his decision on fuel pump.

A month ago I experienced a no start situation that was intermittant. I was always alone so could not determine if fuel or spark. Once time it would start and a couple seconds die. finally would continue to run.

It is a stong posibility the FP was intermitant and failing. May explain a lot.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Good to find that problem now and not when on the spray .

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Yes, lucky on that one. Remember to keep enough fuel in the tank so fuel slosh doesn't give you a lean condition. This causes problems with SC/TC/N2O engines.