Napster134

Hello all,

I am almost done installing a supercharger on my car.
Its a Vortech V-2 SQ trim supercharger. I followed what DAVECS1 did to get his SC to fit. Purchased the universal SBC mounting kit from vortech and drilled the 4 holes on the SC bracket lower than the existing holes to have the SC clear the hood, also re clocked the supercharger (this was extremely easy to do, just take off a few allen screws and the outlet turns 360 degrees anywhere you want it)

Also Tee'd off my oil pressure sender so I could run the oil to the SC inlet and then punched and tapped a 3/8ths NPT hole into the oil pan for the return drain.

I purchased a BOV, bonnet, and tubing from Al with Wyjammers but as I get closer to getting the car started for the first time after the installation, I have a question I'm hoping to get some help with from you guys.

I am wondering if its going to be OK to tee off the main vacuum port on my edelbrock RPM manifold and use it for both the BOV and the brake booster. I don't want to risk the booster not getting enough vacuum but Al let me know that the BOV will need a really good vacuum source.

I have a few tuning questions but I am going to add it into the EBL tuning thread and just reference this thread.

Here are some pics, still waiting on the bonnet, BOV, and tubing which will be getting here later today.






And my setup:

-Engine:
Chevy 355 5.8L (350/.030 over)

-Rotating Assembly:
Fully Balanced Rotating Assembly
Eagle Cast Steel Crankshaft
Eagle 5140 Steel I beam connecting rods
Speed Pro hypereutectic Flat Top 5cc pistons (9.8comp w/ 64cc cambers)
Clevite 77 Performance rod and main bearings

-Valvetrain:
Scorpion Performance 1.6.1 Self-Aligning Aluminum roller rockers
Procomp Electronics 190cc/64cc Aluminum Heads
ProComp Magnum 7.900" Pushrods
ProComp Xtreme Energy XE268H Cam & Lifters (477" Int .480" Exh lift 268°/280)

-Intake/Fuel:
Walbro 255lb Fuel Pump
Aeromotive 13301 Fuel Pressure Regulator set at 18PSI
454 7.4L BBC TBI w/ 80lb Injectors (Cleaned and flow tested at 80lbs by Motor Man Fuel Injection)
TBI to Carb 1/2" Intake Adapter Square Bore 54mm
Edelbrock Performer RPM 7101 Aluminum Intake
Spectre Red 14" Air Cleaner w/ Air Lid

-Ignition:
MSD EFI Distributor
MSD 8mm Wires
MSD Blaster coil

-Exhaust:
1 5/8" Edelbrock TES headers
2.5" Edelbrock TES Y-Pipe
3" Cat Back

-Transmission/Rear End:
700R4
Edge Racing Torque Converter w/ 2600 Stall
TransGo 700R4 Street/Strip Shift Kit with corvette servo
Borg Warner 9 bolt Rear w/ 3.42 gears (Speedometer -10mph off)

-Suspension:
Energy Suspension Transmission Mount
Energy Suspension Motor Mounts
Energy Suspension Sway Bar links
Eibach ProKit Springs
KYB Gas-a-Just Shocks
KYB Excel-G Gas Struts
Founders Performance Adjustable Panhard Bar
Founders Performance Strut mounts
UMI Performance Wonderbar

-Brakes:
Wilwood Disc Brake Adjustable Proportioning Valve
Power Stop Slotted 10.5" Front rotors
1LE Rear disk Brake Calipers
1LE 11" Rear rotors

-Wheels:
15x7" Polished Rims
Cooper CS4 235/60/15 front tires
Hercules H/P 4000 245/60/15 rear tires

-Misc:
All new sensors
IAC Old/New Adapter Connector
Red Wire tubing
Optima Red Top Battery
Sony MEX-BT3700u Bluetooth Stereo
Base Inital tune flashed by TBIChips
EBL Flash ECM w/ WhatsUp Display Serial to USB Laptop adapter
EBL Flash TT-1 Wide Band O2 installed before cadillac converter
A.I.R. system delete

Guest

Nice.

355sleeper

iTrader: (4)

your compression is too high if you are running pump gas. you will have to run very low timing and a max of 5-6psi to stay out of detonation. if you get any detonation with those hyper pistons they will shatter.

best bet is to get a boost referenced timing box as you will not be happy with locking your timing out and will have very poor gas mileage compared to normal timing.

aside from that everything looks good

pound

iTrader: (7)

I've debated going sc for a while now. Would love to see this project finished. What are you using for an ECM?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

EBL dynamicefi.com

mr305

iTrader: (1)

Im interested to see how these procomp heads do with boost,
i used them N/A with a stock 350/290 hr-12 cam/ Edelbrock performer and edelbrock 750 and it actually did pretty well

keep us posted

Napster134

Well the compression I know it a bit high for boost (9.8.1) my heads are not iron heads, they are aluminum procomp heads... if that makes any difference. Good thing is, I will have a means of ensuing that the ECM knows when boost exists and retarding spark / richening the AFR mixture. This is all due to having an EBL ECM / 2 bar MAP / WB02 Sensor installed.

So I'm hoping I'll be ok as long as I do some tuning on the safe side, what do you think?

Napster134

Will be sure to keep the thread active as I finish. Almost done, just waiting on the crank pulley.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

9.8:1 with aluminum heads is fine. My Corvette was 10:1, ran 24 degrees advance and spun the blower as much as it could go.

I've run 16psi on 9:1 iron headed motors without an intercooler.

My current build is 9.3:1 and I intend to give it all the P1SC can give it. Any less compression and the thing will barely move off boost.

So you're running 18psi fuel pressure at baro? Is it a 1:1 rise ?


-- Joe

Napster134

Sounds good, I've always worried about these power adders. Everyone makes them sound so dangerous lol whats the difference between the P1SC and my vortech V2? They look pretty much the same, does the procharger run off engines oil or does it have its own oil system that is self contained?

Yes, 18 psi, but I'm going to bump it up to about 24psi and vacuum reference it. Bobr let me know its its going to be 1:1 rise under boost. I have a conversation going on in the EBL tuning section on the last page. I don't have much knowledge about any of this stuff so any input and suggestions will be helpful.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ng-ebl-49.html

Napster134

So today I got a few more things done.

Followed RBobs advise and drilled a hole for my IAT valve onto the bonnet and then went ahead and threaded it with 3/8ths NPT threads. I bought an IAT valve made for a 1989 Pontiac Trans Am Turbo V6 from autozone (this one had threads on it) and then just screwed it into my newly threaded bonnet.

I went ahead and installed the bonnet along with the IAT, then clamped down everything. Ran the FPR vacuum hose to one of the TBI ports, ran the BOV vacuum port to another port on the TBI.

The blue silicone duct connector stands out a bit, thinking I'm going to replace it with a red one in the near future.

Let me know what ya guys think.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The procharger is self contained and runs quite a bit hotter than the vortech. The vortech overall is a more efficient design. Your V2 has curved impeller where the P1SC is a straight impeller.

I think your combo is going to work just fine. the TBI is going to cool the charge down. You should be able to do some IAT based enrichment (ask rbob) as well.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Nice setup. Take this advice like a grain of salt... be careful which gas stations you frequent, as most of them have lower octane in their higher octane pumps, and they do this because they know they can get away with it with newer cars, as owners can't tell the difference. As already said pay close attention to your timing with that much compression, and monitor your exhaust gas temps if possible because they don't lie. Consider running methanol when running over fifteen pounds of boost, either that or consider switching to E85, or dropping compression. Make sure your spark reference in the EBL matches where you physically set your distributor way ahead of time, otherwise you will be chasing timing and might accidentally detonate. There is a tremendous difference between tuning at idle and tuning with a load behind a fully warmed up engine under boost, so take it one step at a time.

MagVillain88

I'm just a little curious, why did you go with a vortech and not just go with the whole Wynjammer kit? Been planning on doing a sc for a while, just curious as to why you went this route. Looks good! Thanks.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I had to look that up. Anyone actually use one? Perma greased bearings? Oh boy..

-- Joe

Napster134

Well I got the votech supercharger for only 300$ ... it is used but was sent back to vortech and had everything redone... I'm guessing new gaskets, etc. and since it was remanufactured, it has never been in a car til now. When I got it, it had all the blue vortech caps and stuff.

I wouldnt have paid 2k for the wynjammer one or any other SC kit... I never considered putting in so much money into my car to supercharge it till I got this SC for as cheap as I did.

But in regards to the wynjammer one... I'm no engineer or anything, yet I dont really like how the belt drives it with a pulley on the alt. ... but I spoke to Al and he's a cool guy, I'm sure he has his reasons since he's been doing this for as long as he has and states his SC runs the coolest of all of them our there. He also gave me a lot of tuning tips.

Napster134

Heres a small video if it running...

It clears up after a few seconds ...


Got a few more things to take care of... but I'm sick now and just started school so wont be able to really drive it till everything else is figured out. For some reason the alternator aint charging... should be something easy hopefully

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Exhaust leak or rocker loose?

-- Joe

Napster134

Exhaust leak on passenger side header :/

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Sounds good. Post up some videos of the WUD display if you can while blipping the throttle. As for the alternator, is it reading 0, or just a little lower than normal? If its reading a little lower than normal check the wire relationship between the alternator and battery, make sure the wire isn't frayed on either ends and that there are no openings throughout, as well as make sure that it is firmly secured to the back of the alternator and the battery terminal. If it's reading 0, check the gauge wiring leading to the top of the alternator for the same...

nowerelsetoroam

That looks really good!

MagVillain88

Hey man that looks and sounds sweet! I hear ya on finding a used/reman for a steal. I Hope to come across one like that and do the same. Have you done any tuning with the EBL since you've had it running?

Napster134

Hello everyone,

Just wanted to update this thread with some new pictures. Basically the entire setup is complete and I have started some EBL tuning. I seem to be getting knock at higher RPMs right at about 5000 & higher so I want to start looking into a water injection setup to cool the charge down. Any ideas? According to the MAP sensor I'm pushing about 5-6psi of boost at around 4000 rpms & greater.

Here's some pictures

pound

iTrader: (7)

Looking good! The only thing I'd be worried about is that upper radiator hose comes very close to the SC belt. Could be messy if that hose gets sliced.

Did you post up about the knock issue and tuning in the EBL tuning thread? Its possible you have too much advance over 4000 RPM which is causing the knock. If you haven't already, I'd recommend posting a datalog and your spark advance tables in that thread.

Once you get the tune dialed in you need to take it to a track. We want to see timeslips!

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

many places to spray the w/m.
under tbi unit, post compressor. i personally would spray pre compressor activated by a hobbs switch. any position will affect the tune. so gotta take that into consideration

RBob

iTrader: (1)

As for the high RPM knock, first make sure that the engine isn't going leaner. It may be a fuel delivery issue. It can also be caused by an increase in chamber turbulence causing a faster burn.

In this case just back off the spark advance some. Use the BST - SA retard table to pull a little more timing.

Nice clean install.

RBob.

ThEWhitebirD

iTrader: (1)

nice setup, its cool to see others giving TBI a chance. I did this a few years ago with the wynjammer but threw in the towel cause I needed a bigger fuel pump and didn't feel like dropping the tank. I regret selling it. You should try and move that air filter away from the header, the heated air might be adding to the knock.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

What is the duty cycle %?

Napster134

So I spent all day making this custom stainless steel bracket for ya Pound





I cant wait to get it going, just been so busy with other things, I know its a lot quicker now with the SC than without. I try hard to get into the tuning but sometimes I just dont have the time. Will be doing so though.

Napster134

I'd like to spray pre compressor if anything. I might move my intake to a better spot before I look into this now that I've been reminded about it.

Napster134

Thanks Rbob, I put together two quick snapshots of the last time I took it out. If anything its going richer but not sure if thats because of the spark being taken away. I will be taking away some more spark using those tables!

Napster134

Thank you! To this day, I dont think I've seen very many people put this much time and effort into TBI. I know I'd probably be better off with MPFI but I've already gone this far and dont want to spend a lot more on some type of MPFI system. You're right about the air filter. I completely forgot about that... I was too excited to get everything up and running and tried really hard to find a way to make that turn but its in a really tight spot. Any suggestions? I spent about two days running around town before I had it running trying to find some type of tubing that would be strong and make a complete 180 degreen turn with such a tight radius... Home depot, orchard, auto stores, trucking shops ... Nothing :/

Napster134

Take a look at the last few posts. Its going pretty high but thats my VE tables that I need to adjust. I remember that was what got it to as low as they are now so just need to keep bringing them down past 5000 rpm since thats when its going past 85 and also making it run really rich although the fuel exists if you look at my WB its only going richer so I think I'm ok

pound

iTrader: (7)

That bracket looks nice! Should do a good job of holding the top of the radiator in place.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Look at the two pics you posted above, and look how high your air temps are...

Napster134

I'm guessing it's too high ?! :/ I'm not good at this stuff, what type of temps should I be looking for ?!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yes, those air temps are pretty high. Your air filter behind the supercharger is picking up hot air from the exhaust, which isn't what you want as it will only contribute to knock. You want lower 100 degrees without using alky, and around 60 degrees or so if you use alky. Ideally you want ambient temps without alky, but lower 100's will suffice. Try to grab the incoming air from an entirely different location if you can. Check out some of the supercharged systems in the picture threads, see how they routed their tubing and do something similar. Either that or run an Intercooler...

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

DC%: you are at 100% DC which I believe means the injectors are full open with no pulse width modulation which means no control. that may explain the 11.2/1 A/F.

You can add to VE tables(90+) but not sure if that will help. Do you have addtional fuel pressure you can add?

ThEWhitebirD

iTrader: (1)

yea by 4800 rpm your at 80% your maxed out after that. and your IAT is to high for S/C if that's the reading after the blower you definitely want to bring the temps down. Ill try to post a pic I have from a few years ago. what thermostat are you running looks like a 195 try a 180 to help things a little.

Napster134

Hello all!

Just an update...

I was able to move my intake away from the exhaust. I'm thinking of either putting a hole down where the charcoal canister is and putting the filter underneath to make it a true "CAI" or just meth injection...


The IAT temps have decreased a whole bunch just from moving the intake away! I like the idea of the cooler 185 thermostat.... I'm thinking that also means I'll have to change out the temp sensor that screws into the cylinder head.

In the video, you notice the car stumble with the initial throttle jab. I believe its due to the vacuum building up for the vacuum referenced FPR...

Napster134

Also, I got a new phone! Its a Nokia Lumia 1020... 41MP camera so the video quality is much better

As far as the ticking in the video, I have no idea what that is! It goes away after the engine warms up.

freaky

nice job so far .
did you do anything to the tbi to make it blow thru ?
i'm a firm believer in 11.4 a/f for anything under boost . i like to see it go rich then climb up to 11.4 where yours slowly triggled down to 11.2
keep posting ...

pound

iTrader: (7)

The stumble on the throttle stab is probably caused by the motor going lean for a split second due to the sudden increase of air coming in. To fix this you would have to add some AE pulse width. I'm guessing most of the change would be on the TPS AE side. You would have to get a datalog of this event and then note what the delta TPS and MAP AE values were when the stumble happens and then add a little AE in the tune at those delta values. My car does this exact same thing, but it doesn't affect the driveability that much and I have been too lazy to fix it.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

He's right, some AE fuel adder based on TPS will probably fix that.

How much advance are you running now? I'd probably lock your advance in at around 22 degrees at peak torque. Bruce Plecan always told me that retarding SA as boost raises causes a spike in cylinder temps, and actually leads to detonation. Since then (around 2001) I've always locked my advance in on my blown builds and cranked up boost.


-- Joe

Badass355ciz28

iTrader: (17)

heh i picked up on that tooo...those exhaust leaks can be pesky

Badass355ciz28

iTrader: (17)

nicely done !!

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

Man that's bad ***!

Good job!

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

Are you going to run a BOV?

pancherj

I run an ECS kit on my 2010 camaro. They have the filter right on the supercharger and it is right next to the exhaust. I asked about this. Their reply is you will lose more power adding an intake tube than you will running the filter right on the supercharger and picking up hotter air. Centri's do not like any restriction on the intake side.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

They are full of it.

I ran an s-trim for years in the early 2000s. When I had the filter under the battery tray my temps (non intercooled) were managable. When I moved the air filter to over the valve cover (to get rid of those restrictive 90* bends) my iat temps were higher, the car pinged and I had to back off timing or add a stupid amount of fuel to try and cool down the air.

Overly rich and retarded timing = power loss.

-- Joe