JAYDUBB

ZZ3Astro, its about time you swapped to LS...

Sell that Holley Dominator and Megasquirt. Get an 0411 and buy/learn HP Tuners. Thats what I have ready for my LS swap. I've been messing around with HP Tuners for about 4 years now, tuning my G8 and my GTP. I love it. And you have an OBD2 post that you can use just about any Bluetooth OBD2 device to monitor the car. Dont need to have he HPT hooked up UNLESS youre scanning/logging to make changes.

ive followed your build a very long time. I was hoping that the head swap and stuff would net you the results that you were looking for. But you cant beat a 5.3/6.0 swap for the buck and reliability. Ive tuned other vehicles with HPT and each one is a learning experience.

Make sure you get a 2004-2005 engine... try to luck up and get one with Gen 4 rods. Get a L33 if you can. Might cost a little more but those seem to be pretty strong.

Good luck!

ZZ3Astro

I tell you those Gen4's are being sucked up by a Hoover around here by someone. They just don't get on the open market hardly at all and when they do they are gone in minutes. Definitely going towards LS because even if this engine does make the power now, it isn't going to hold up to it for very long. I just want to get my 49 i6 swap done before I go through another swap on the Iroc so I'm hoping to get a little service out of the 5.7.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Took you this long to agree with me lol? Exactly, if the engine is reaching a particular RPM instantaneously when boost comes in and the speed does not reflect the final ratio then something is off in the transmission. I said it time and time again that it is not a coincidence that he changed his intake and throttle body... disturbed his factory detent cable location, now suddenly is experiencing problems. If the detent is off it will make a big difference. Also felt he may be blowing through his converter at that power level, and just because it is a PTC or other name brand means little in this case, especially having to let off to allow it to shift in both the detent and/or converter cases...

I figured I would watch a quick video of his just to see where he left off, and his engine sounds completely off at idle. Completely off. A miss is an understatement at this point. Sounds like his plugs are fouled and his wires are arcing, just sounds horribly off. Never liked the Megasquirt system myself, but like we both agreed to earlier, it did not do this with the old setup, so you have to consider the mods he made when all this started. Hope the Holley system helps him though, heard nothing but great things about it myself...

ZZ3Astro

What would the signs be if it were blowing through the converter? If detent is was off, it would be slipping the clutches which would quickly burn the fluid, correct? Other than heat, would a converter not holding the power leave any evidence? Converter right now is the Precision Vigilante 2800.


Also in the case of my build, the TV cable position is less critical than a stock tv valve. This is because Dana specifically modified it to provide high pressure at a lower tv position due to the mid-range torque the old engine would create at partial throttle.


Plugs are brand new. New wires are going on with the new setup. And yes it sounds horrible in the latest video. I am thinking wires, somehow, but they don't have much run time on them either. Will be interesting to see them up close when they come out.

ZZ3Astro

I wouldn't say suddenly experiencing problems Lethal. I feel like this car has never made the power it should have. Most mods I've made in the past 4-5 years have tried to address this complaint. After the full turbo header build didn't make much of a difference, I decided to go to LS. Then, in a massive brain fart, I decided to just stay gen 1 and buy heads and an intake that flow like LS. At the same time Precision gave me a great deal on upgrading to the 7675. So now I am paying the price of not just eliminating everything and going LS. I should have known better with the endless problems I've experienced over the years with this setup. LS would have been a clean slate.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Sounds like you need a different bottom end or something. I dont understand how its never made the power you expected

zz17iroc

iTrader: (4)

Well going to LS is always the answer to a problem around here as of late, to funny. This is hot rodding, we do what works for you. It's all about the combo, but if you think you need to go LS to make it happen then let her rip and do it for Dale. I mean I've had many ups and downs with my set up and at times just wanted throw in the towel. But I'm glad I stuck with what I have. I remember meeting you at U.S. 19 Drag Way in Albany, Ga. about 2 years ago and we talk a little. Just keep at it you don't need to go LS to go fast.

ZZ3Astro

Love your car zz17iroc, I remember it well.. I realize LS isn't a prerequisite but at this point if the Holley doesn't fix the car then something is wrong with the engine itself. And at that point I'm done troubleshooting/replacing/upgrading trying to get power from what has been a lost cause. And looking towards making 900-1000 crank hp there is no incentive left for me to staying gen1 when a stock LS block and crank can do it. But I'm going to remain optimistic that this gen1 engine will finally live up to its capability in the short term.

ZZ3Astro

Holley parts arrived today. Also received the cam sync distributor. Coils and brackets should be here in the next couple of days. Also bought a used Chromoly 4L80/Ford 9" driveshaft and a 4L80 crossmember.


Debating on going ahead and replacing these now 8 year old injectors at the same time, to eliminate yet another variable. I'd like to run some big enough to run E85. Decisions..

zz17iroc

iTrader: (4)

Please don't get me wrong, I mean well and I totally understand your frustration. It truly is all about the combo. You saw what my car was doing with that small BBS hot side. I've got my car to run consistent 6.0x's @ 115-119 MPH all summer with these new CX Racing hot side and that small 7875 water/oil cooled turbo. I manage to break my first output shaft 3 wks ago as well in 700r4, it was a stock shaft not a billet one.

If I where you I would stay with 93 pump gas and a Meth kit. I installed a kit this summer and it works great and the car picked up big time due to the timing I was able to add at higher boost levels. Lets say I can get away with 25* on 20lbs of boost, I have not tried it at a higher boost yet. But no more race gas or octane boosters for me. I have 3 cases of Boost Juice in the corner now. And I can make my own if I need to.

Remember to have fun doing what your doing and don't let it get you down Bro!! And have fun with your new parts. I also have a FAST XFI 2.0 with a dual sync distributor I need to install, I've had it for at least 8 months now. Just trying to see how far I can push this EBL system, right now I'm limited to 96lbs injectors and the duty cycle is 73% with Methonal injection. Being batch fire injection and having one injector drive limits what size high impedance injector I can use, the saturation rate is important on a 730 ecm.

Big, White & Sl

VS Racing sells the 210lb Bosch injectors for like $540 a set. That's what I bought for E85

ZZ3Astro

I'm not crazy about the led backlighting color yet but this is the new look for the dash. Would definitely prefer incandescent back lighting so I can dim it way down. These gauges are easy to install though and have a very thin profile.

zz17iroc

iTrader: (4)

Man, you went all out! I guess if your going to spend the cash, you mines well get what you want. No regrets and don't look back! If I had the cash I would've done FAST along time ago, I promise you that.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

holy crap i need some of that in my life. that dash is sweet

could you use this?

86Z

iTrader: (4)

my vette was the first LS car i've been in aside from my truck with a 5.3... i have HPTuners and did some tuning on the vette. it's so easy compared to the tunerpro rt i was using on the camaro TPI engine. thus the LS swap begins.

ZZ3Astro

Diggler thanks, that might do the trick!


I mounted up the dash and there is definitely something I don't like. The lower gauges that are set to the inside are completely obstructed by the steering column. I thought they might be but wasn't sure since they're making these and selling them everywhere. I'm going to make my own or switch to their black matte version which according to them the lower gauges are outset instead of inset. But Summit's photo of that part number shows matte black with inset gauges. With my luck I'm shy to order, plus $150 for a piece of molded ABS plastic 8" X 16"? I'm not cheap but I do have limits to what I will pay for things.


Tempted to buy a carbon panel and cut and drill it out to my own specs. Personally I wasn't too proud of fake carbon anyway so I'd prefer either matte black or real carbon.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Would be foolish not to go LS at this point Steve, as your throwing good money on top of a cast bottom end. Just a matter of time. Looking forward to seeing how the Holley system works with your setup. Had a feeling the steering wheel was going to obstruct your vision towards the gauges. Its a nice piece, but I would get a refund and maybe build your own.

Depends on the XDF being used w/Tuner Pro.

ZZ3Astro

LS is closer than you think.. I was hoping to get through the winter on the sbc so I could free up time and energy to work on my 49. The cost is mainly I will lose the bit of time getting the holley set up on the sbc and when I go to sell the sbc parts of the harness I will lose some money. But maybe I'll get to drive it much sooner and it might even go down the track at a reasonable et. Would be nice to finally put the mystery to rest.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Long term the LS will be a better combo, but I'd love to see what exactly is wrong with what he has. If he just throws in the towel and replaces everything we will never know why it didn't make the power it should have.

[/quote]

The XDF will give you more calibration options, but won't suddenly make tuner pro not a turd lol.


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

His new combo sounds entirely different in contrast to his old. The Megasquirt system controlled his old setup just fine, which is why many people are scratching their heads in confusion as to why it now suddenly might have a timing problem. I stand by what I originally said in that if he is seeing 6000-RPM on his tach immediately when boost kicks in, but the speed nor rate of acceleration, or even tire spin for that matter, is being accompanied or complying, then his transmission is shot, or he is blowing through the converter because the final gear ratio will not lie. At idle it sounds like he is fouling out badly, and it even sounds to have an echo as if his cam bearings are shot. That is not meant to imply his cam is bad, but the noise though leads to suspect there was a problem with either the install of the new components (heads, intake and throttle body), eg; vacuum leak, or some type of flaw with one or all of them. There are plenty of specialty places in Florida to take the vehicle to and they will tell him immediately what is wrong, but he chooses not to, and that is the part I have a problem with, why sink so much money into an ailment clouded in speculation all these years when the Doctor can immediately pinpoint the problem...

Joe that statement can be defined as an oxymoron because you just foolishly contradicted yourself trying to say something entirely different. The XDF(s) used with the EBL system, in which uses TunerPro RT as its' platform to modify a bin, are enhanced with much more resolution, more features, and overall more control. TunerPro, thanks to the EBL system, now systematically has areas specific to boost control, wastegate control and alky control. A la RBob's written XDF.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Tunerpro with or without ebl is far easier to use than hptuners.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I don't know what's wrong with his stuff, I just hope he figures it out with the engine he has now.


What does the EBL daughterboard have to do with this?

Tuner Pro is crappy software.

Telling it more information about a bin doesn't make it better.

You realize what a bin editor is, right ? The whole concept of the bin definition format is to provide a configurable 'roadmap' to the memory addresses how to interpret the data at those addresses.

The XDF didn't suddenly add functionality to TunerPRo, or make it better software, it just defines how to manipulate the programmable area of the BIN.

You remind me of one of my Commodore 64 friends, who still holds on to that old technology, and talks about how cool sprites are. (who oddly enough also has a ton of expensive daughter boards plugged into the 1980s POS to make it 'do more'). Hrmm.

-- Joe

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

this. i would like some closure on this one before it gets swapped out for the ls.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Me too. I've been following his stuff for years. I think I finally met a dude who drives his thirdgen less than I do

ZZ3Astro

Well a bit of a smoking gun... plug wire #, you guessed it, 6 looks like it has been too hot just before the boot. There is just too much heat in that area with the twin primaries (4 + 6), on one side, the crossover running directly underneath and the downpipe running right past it. I have it double insulated and running behind the dipstick to keep it away from everything. I should have inspected when I did the plugs but that is the last wire I was ever worried about touching. Instead it was radiant heat that got it from all directions rather than accidental contact.


This was unavoidable pipe routing with the stock k-member, but now I have a completely new path I can use by running through the k-member frame. This will get rid of the crossover as a heating factor for any wires. More work but worth it as this is the only wire that shows any sign of heating at all. I need to raise the crossover tube some anyway so I can fix that at the same time.


Funny though it didn't feel like a dead cylinder like it did before. I'm guessing this happened very quickly during the initial tuning. That first drive at 10psi the car felt impressive. As soon as I turned it up it just didn't deliver. I probably didn't notice the power loss of one cylinder because the other 7 were making more power than the old setup. It is probably only arcing out under higher boost.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You guys are so damn quick to blame the timing lol...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I've had burnt wires do strange things. Sometimes run fine at part throttle but break in boost. Sometimes feel ok under throttle but not in part throttle lol. High boost crappy low boost decent. Glad you found the possible issue

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It's timing - his plugs are not firing when he asks them too.

The fact that it's a burnt wire, well, still timing lol hahaha

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Hey I'm just glad he found it. In my opinion he should just drain and replace the oil, change the oil filter, get a new set of plugs or clean off the old ones, and fix or replace the plug wires. Send back the Holley Dominator, get a full refund, and sink that money into a strong 9" rearend while building that electronic trans he got with the 4200 Vortec... and just dismiss this blasphemy of going with an LSX engine lol...

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

my thing on the timing was it was an area of uncertainty mainly. there was an error, it moved around, it advanced on its own over the rpm range.... he just wasnt 100% sure where the spark was arriving in the cylinder. it could have had 15 degrees in it or 30 degrees, who knew for sure?

if the timing is correct and the fueling is correct, and the engine isnt obvisously hurt, then like you said much earlier in the thread- the power is being made. the next step would be to investigate transmission issues. blowing through the coverter, trans slippage, or something binding somewhere in the driveline.

i think the holley system installed in a "metric" fashion where it could accept whatever engine gets swapped underhood would be pretty awesome. the biggest thing will be getting rid of the ms2 and removing a mountain of doubts and uncertainty regarding that system and moving foward he should have a more concrete foundation to work off of. im looking foward to see the progress.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The LSx is not bad long term, and he will need an ECU to support it. The Holley is a good system and any idiot can tune it, so if he resells the car it won't be an issue getting a commercial shop to do work on it if the buyer is not a tuner.

-- Joe

ZZ3Astro

Lethal - already have a 9 inch sitting here waiting to go in. No need to divert money to that! And the Holley stuff is all paid for so on to the next shiny part!


Anethes - Good point most shops around here are getting Holley EFI training or already have. Certainly less of a variable than megasquirt for any future buyer. I doubt I would sell the Iroc with the Holley in place though, unless I was getting out of cars completely. The Iroc itself will halve the value of anything installed. Dang thirdgen curse.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yup, each shiny part adds another tenth to the overall ET lol...

[/done]

ZZ3Astro

Yeah lol maybe that's why it's been slowing down lately! I know this 9 inch is gonna slow it down.. and the 4L80.. and the chromoly driveshaft I just got. Need more power.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Ugg, tell me about it. I've got a fantastic motor, transmission and tons of money in paint on a $500 car.

I've seriously got around $25,000 into my build, and it runs great but I couldn't get $7500 for the whole thing if I tried. Nobody wants these things.

I should have put it into a 1st gen.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Or an early 2nd gen. Even in a WS6 would be nice.

ZZ, it is good you are finding all the errors causing it not to run right. It seems like you have the bad firmware resolved, the incorrect tune (latency and spark table) fixed, the possible bad dizzy reluctor fixed (crank trigger), and now the wires and plugs. Seems like the entire ignition system was hosed.

ZZ3Astro

I'm very curious to see how stable the timing looks at idle with the Holley system. I suspect it will be rock solid looking. The trigger wheel did not seem change anything with that as it still moved around a good bit at idle. I've never felt like the timing was 'right' with the Megasquirt.. it just seemed to do its own thing at times. Haven't dealt with detonation at least so it could have been worse.

Ordered the stainless tubing so hopefully by next week I can have a new crossover routed through the k-member. Meanwhile I'm going to work on wiring up the Holley system and work on a gauge layout with some cardboard.


Getting very anxious to hear the first fire-up on the Dominator system.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

More than likely mechanical. If the cells are not changing, and the target advance is the same it shouldn't be moving around. It's just a loop that reads input and commands output. A timing error is software, as in it's firing earlier or later based on trigger latency. But timing 'moving' around can't be software.

Either way I think you will like the Holley. I just wish the fuel maps were not based on lbs/fuel but rather VE target. Takes the whole speed density out of speed density. Otherwise, it's good stuff with reliable hardware.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've owned a few 2nd gens over the years. Cool cars but they have their quirks, and are heavy. I've owned several 4th gen cars, a ws6 and a few Z's. I have the engine stuffed so far into the bay.

I've been looking for a 67-78 bird or Camaro for years now, but they are all either piles of rotted metal or they want way too much money.

I sold my 3rd gen Corvettes last year. They have their pros and cons.

-- Joe

ZZ3Astro

Megasquirt is 100% out of the car. Everything was originally done using factory connectors so it came out nice and clean. I forgot that I had so much PLX hardware stuff in the dash. Four boxes for the gauge and sensors. So glad to get rid of that rats nest of wiring that will be non-existent with the Holley system since it is all integrated. The Holley computer is very awkwardly long though and it isn't looking too good for a nice and easy hidden install so far.


Next I have to decide if I want to cut some connectors off the MS harness or go visit pick and pull for them. I'd rather keep the MS harness workable in case I ever want to reverse the Holley install and dump the Iroc. These are the tie-in connectors in the dash and the main fan harness connector.

ZZ3Astro

New crossover is almost done. Just need to do final welding. Access is 100% better to the passenger side plugs, starter, etc. The new routing is very straight with absolute minimum bends. I also eliminated one v-band in the middle so less places to have potential leaks.





After final welding, the remaining hurdle will be mounting the coils. I bought some new mounts that really bring the d585 coils close together. The problem is this being a third gen they still take too much room. I bought some shorter bolts and have the coils in a 2 x 2 setup which will allow me more flexibility in mounting. I'd certainly prefer 4 in a row but as always compromises have to made when working in such tight space. I have few days on the road coming up so it will be next week before I can get to work on the coil mounting.

ZZ3Astro

No Iroc progress to report. I need to mount the coils still. That is the main hold up is getting started on that pita job. We have some warm weather this week so hopefully I will find some time to work on it.


Meanwhile we picked up an 04 Rubicon (auto) to pull behind the RV. The very first time we drove it after getting it home from the dealership, the transmission completely took a dump. Looking at almost 2k rebuild so my vehicle motivation is low right now. No only that but as soon as I got it home we spent 4k on tires, wheels, tow bar, brake system etc and spent the better part of the week installing so we could tow it on the trip I just got back from. Needless to say I had to trailer the SUV instead and I am steaming over it all.

Dealership should chip in on this repair but they are not looking promising. I've never had something do this at all, much less immediately after driving it home.

Drac0nic

If you have a lawyer ask them what the law says. You may have a few days to send it back. I would at least tell the dealer you want them to take it back.

ZZ3Astro

They are agreeing to cover 60/40. I dropped it off at the shop today so we shall see what went wrong.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Your tierods don't rub at all on that k-member?

When my car is on the lift, I cannot move my wheels much, the suspension hangs down enough that the tie rod hits outside the notched area. I'm worried on a bump this might happen. I also imagine the weight of the car is enough to bend the tie rod.

Spohn?


-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Put a limiter kit on it

ZZ3Astro

Spohn yes and an older one at that. I imagine it will bind while hanging if the wheels are turned far enough. It's funny how little of the parts I will be using from last year's $3k purchase of a bunch of used parts (k-member, coil overs, 9 inch, aluminum driveshaft, etc) from a donor car. I'm already not using the aluminum driveshaft, can't use the SAE 82-84 brake lines, don't particularly trust the tubular control arms (no cross brace like modern ones), probably won't use the rear Brembos (too big for 15-16" wheels) and it had a short Trak Pak torque arm which requires a cross member and looked too weak for my long term plans, so I bought a Spohn Pro-Series full length. Might not use the struts either. They are adjustable but not really set up for drag. Maybe they will work for a while. I hope the 9 inch is worth using at least. I would have just about been better off to buy new from the start but such is life!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I kinda wish Spohn would just build things properly, but I'll probably have to do just that.

Anything in particular that fits our cars without any safety concerns?

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Here is the offending problem:




Which A-Arms do you have? I have the Spohn, not sure if it's older or newer, but they ball joint is in the wrong spot so it shifts the wheel back a hair.

To keep from rubbing the inner fender I had to put a lot of caster into it, which is BS.

-- Joe

ZZ3Astro

For the life of me I cannot figure out why the K Member is notched. Why couldn't the crosstube simply have been located further back? I'm looking at mine and see no justification for the forward position. Everyone who has been under my car immediately notices and comments on the notch.

I need to check into that offset issue... I'm sure mine are the oldest Spohn arms with the most problem in design. They have stock spring location perches but I'm running coil overs so not needed. The arms are made with two tubes - one each from the frame mounting point each coming together at the ball joint. There is no tube connecting across the V, not even a gusset at the V, only the spring perches. However, the spring perches consisted of only flat stock bent downward, then flat across the spring seat and then back upward. In other words they provided zero triangulation or strengthening. I cut them off because they were just dead weight. Anyway under extreme braking conditions this design would not appear to be very good. I'm going to replace them at some point sooner than later.