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Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

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Old 10-05-2017, 07:55 PM   #451
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

I've always wondered if you did FW on a non-MS box like the Holley or HPT if it would break the config every time you updated FW. I feel like I'm in deja vu land restarting my tune every time I mess with the MS. You'd think they would have some form of conversion for it or something, or standardize on a form and keep to that. At least within point releases.
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:19 AM   #452
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

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Originally Posted by Drac0nic View Post
I've always wondered if you did FW on a non-MS box like the Holley or HPT if it would break the config every time you updated FW. I feel like I'm in deja vu land restarting my tune every time I mess with the MS. You'd think they would have some form of conversion for it or something, or standardize on a form and keep to that. At least within point releases.
They do. If you move from version to version, it will either use defaults or give you an opportunity to set the defaults on new or changed features. This is always outlined in the release notes.

When you update firmware every 5 years, the changes are much more dramatic.

A lot of the functionality has changed since the version he was running and the current release. Not just bug fixes, but actual changes in algorithms and features.

The version he was running was considered so bug prone that they actually removed it from the download archives so nobody would inadvertently install it and try to use it.


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Old 10-06-2017, 04:32 PM   #453
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Partial success. The crank trigger is being picked up by the MS and the MS is firing the 6AL. The problem is the tach signal keeps going to zero about two times per second while cranking. It can't quite crank up because the tach isn't showing rotation. I had the hall at 0.060 with a recommended 0.040-0.080. I moved it to 0.045 with zero change. I also aligned the hall sensor to perfection (angle and centerline) with no change. I need an oscilloscope to further diagnose (said no Holley EFI user ever). What a finicky SOB this thing is.


So much for test and tune again. I guess I can be happy that at least it's firing some FWLIW.
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:36 PM   #454
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Is your noise filter set up? Mine did that before i set mine.
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:48 PM   #455
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

I play around with the adjustments for a while with no change to the problem. Taking a break from it for now as I'm pretty torqued about missing yet another drag strip night. I'm trying to go back through all ignition settings to make sure nothing got changed while I was fighting the bad hall sensor.. unfortunately the battery was at 7% when I went inside.. I went back out to the shop to get the laptop and it had crashed. Windows 10 decided to try to run an update on a low battery. I guess it's fixing itself now but I'm locked out until it decides I am allowed back on. Not my day/week on tech gear.
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Old 10-06-2017, 07:47 PM   #456
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Progress but big questions remain:


The Megamanual explains how to configure the Megasquirt to run the 6AL direct through the IGBT circuit (step 65). The settings are given here: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/msd6a.htm yet the settings specified do not exist in the new firmware revision. I was able to find and modify the .ini file and made a guess that the new firmware's "Nominal Dwell" replaced the maximum spark duration setting specified in the link above. Sure enough it is capped at 8 (just like the Max Spark Duration specified in the link). Even after modifying the .ini file this particular setting capped at 8 so IDK.

I could never get the car to run right with any of the recommended 6AL settings for the spark. I could get a rough idle but it would backfire and timing would slew by 10's of degrees. Finally I changed the Dwell Type setting to Charge at Trigger and the car settled down. Revving produced no backfiring and timing was pretty steady (observed several degrees of slew in higher rpm). But rock solid it is not.. It still exhibits the same random timing slew of +- 5-8 degrees. The RPM sync indicator stays solid green so I don't think it is picking up or dropping random events.


The only old hardware left is my 6AL and the Megasquirt itself. With the crank trigger, IGBT circuit, new MSD Blaster 2 coil and firmware upgrade, there isn't much left that could cause this. I don't see how the cap, rotor, or plug wires could do it. Cam/distributor slop is no longer a factor.


Driving the car, it still sounds rough in the ignition especially at certain rpm areas. I didn't have time to datalog tonight and we have a hurricane approaching so the rain is coming tomorrow. I haven't eliminated the tune at this point but the timing jumping around is a big concern to me. I expected that to stop with the trigger and it is like I got nowhere with all of this effort.


Performance wise it felt the same. It may have done better in the higher rpm but no tire spinning still. I didn't see max boost but it is set up for 10.5 closed/13 cutout open and I had it open. So 13 psi still no tire smoker, though the firmware update may have altered fueling enough to be a factor.


Wish I'd gone 5.3. Now I'm so far into this I'm having a hard time walking away from it. I don't like losing a battle, but the object is to win the WAR! Some battles have to be lost and the gen1 battle is about to white flag.
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:37 PM   #457
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

moving around at idle- is it trying to stabilize the idle rpm by changing the timing? forgive me if thats a dumb question.
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:33 PM   #458
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

You gotta have something else going on. I can smoke the tires from a 30 roll no problem in 2nd at 7 lbs and your running way more boost. I still dont think your springs are up to par. I wanna say i heard somewhere 10 lbs on the back of a 2.02 valve negates close to 20 lbs of spring pressure. I dont remember those LS6 springs being much more rugged than the stock vortec cylinder head springs
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:47 PM   #459
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

PS do you have timing being pulled based on MAT temp?
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:20 PM   #460
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Yes I do have MAT based retard. It pulls 2 degrees at 120F and 4 degrees at 140F. Looking at a recent datalog, it reached a max of 93.7F at 16.4 PSI. I haven't noticed MAT going over 105F ever since intercooling, except heat soak startups for the first 10 seconds or so.


Springs I have on here now are NOT up to par, for sure. The springs on the 113 heads are much better Comp beehive's 130 lb vs the 90 on these. I didn't realize these were so much less, but also I wasn't expecting to have to run more than 10 psi to get what I wanted out of this engine (until I built a strong bottom end for it).


By running 10 psi on this engine instead of the 20 psi on the old engine, that works out to 30 lbs less force with a 2 inch valve. If I ran 8 psi on this engine with 90 lb springs, it would have the same seat pressure during boost as my old combo had at 21 psi with 130 lb springs.


Diggler - I don't think it has that functionality but I will go through the tune looking for something along those lines. Idle Advance setting is disabled. Also I keep the Timing Advance gauge visible and I locked the timing to 20 degrees. The gauge indicated requested timing of 20 degrees and it does not move, yet the timing light shows otherwise. I'll try my other timing gun tomorrow to confirm it is not the gun itself. It's newish so hopefully not!
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:39 AM   #461
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

I swear the older I get, the more absent minded I get. From loose bolts to forgotten settings, I do it all these days. Someone forgot to weld the crank trigger bracket in one place. It was tacked together. When trying to align the sensor perfectly with the trigger wheel, I grabbed the bracket and twisted on it and POP. It is a good thing it wasn't running good enough to go to the track yesterday. It would not have been good to have that bracket dangling across the trigger wheel at 5000 rpm.


On the same note, when I was setting up the timing settings yesterday I had set the MS to fixed timing of 20 degrees. Well this morning I discovered I had not changed that setting back to table based timing. Drove it back on the tables this morning and it feels much better than last night.


It *seems* like the higher rpm timing breakup I've always had is not there but only time will tell. I'm getting some kind of problem around 5900 rpm at 15 psi which is likely to do with the 90 lb springs. Two weeks until I can get to a drag strip so I will have those swapped out before then. It feels strong at 11 psi but not much better at 15. The fueling at 15 is still too rich so that is probably a factor.


Once again it feels like a slight improvement with all of this work, but still isn't over the edge. Also I've had 2 or 3 random spits while driving. I caught one on the datalog I think, so maybe I can narrow down the cause. I need some track time to work on the tune and see if it's going to make some numbers or not.
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Old 10-07-2017, 03:00 PM   #462
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Final update... drove it to town for lunch and datalogging. It was very rich at 15 psi at 5800 rpm around 10.3. I lowered it twice and ended up too lean at 11.6 according to the final datalog but this is where it gets interesting. Injector duty cycle reports 87.7% at 197 kpa and 5600 rpm. That should be 600 hp to the wheels assuming BSFC of .65. BTW after a lot of ******* the coolant temp was around 205 and stayed in that area. Datalog shows the max manifold temp was 119.8 right at 15 psi. Still not enough to trigger timing reduction. Timing reported at 20 degrees at 5625 and 15 psi.


The roads are no ideal - Hurricane Nate's outer bands are causing sprinkles here. With sprinkle drops on the windshield it barely hazed the tires in one small part of second gear. It's bad when your girl tells you it doesn't feel like it's pulling like it should be! And that doesn't sound like even 500 to the wheels much less 600.
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Old 10-07-2017, 03:34 PM   #463
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

I think you should take a closer look at the valve train. You may be having valve bounce and or valve float issues like you stated before. You can't tune that out!
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:03 PM   #464
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Really you should be proud of getting that cps setup to work. there is aftermarket setups that you can buy that dont work without some fiddling, and for you to cut up a reluctor, weld it on your pulley, make a cps bracket, solder missing components into an 8 year old ms2, and configure it correctly... deserves a slow clap at least, i think. lol you did a good job on that.

is there a dyno you could get the car on sometime? it would be a wealth of information in regards to things like valve float (if any) or how much drivetrain slip there is.
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:27 PM   #465
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Yes on local dynos.. Actually there is a dyno day in a few weeks I would like to get over to. Swapping to my Comp valve springs are next, then hopefully the track if the upgrade seems to improve things further. Not above bringing a 5 gallon can of race gas and slipping in some real timing numbers either!
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:01 PM   #466
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

i would even consider a heavier spring than your 918's, but they may work ok. i know alot of the ls guys run them with turbos. maybe give bullet cams a call or some other place like that if you take a notion for new springs. they can actually go over combinations in depth unlike alot of places.
one thing to be sure of as you are installing them is installed height. i would shim them up to within .060" or so from coil bind.
i had a snafu on my car once when i got a new set of factory cnc ported heads for it. i simply swapped my springs over to the new heads without checking anything. car floated the valves at 6100 on the dyno. (graph looked like it fell off a cliff at that rpm) turns out, my new heads had much larger and deeper spring pockets machined in, so my springs were setup much taller and thus had less closed pressure. now i always spend plenty of time on spring setup.
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Old 10-08-2017, 08:10 AM   #467
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Diggler funny you mention that.. I was at Panhandle Performance last week and Mark brought up that exact subject. He said the difference in shimming vs just installing can be considerable. Doesn't look to easy to do this in-car compared to on the bench though. I'm going to bring the springs by when I get them off the other heads and have him get the measurements.


I almost hate to buy springs for this cam because I will have a larger cam in whatever future combination I do. The only reason I left this cam in place was to keep from over spinning this stock rod bottom end. I guess I could over buy but I'd prefer a matched spring to whichever cam/engine generation I end up with. Shimming to near coil bind is probably the best step for me to take next but it would be very difficult to measure every valve's installed height while on the car.
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Old 10-08-2017, 09:03 AM   #468
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZ3Astro View Post
Progress but big questions remain:


The Megamanual explains how to configure the Megasquirt to run the 6AL direct through the IGBT circuit (step 65). The settings are given here: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/msd6a.htm yet the settings specified do not exist in the new firmware revision.
The megamanual applies to the B&G code, not Ms2extra. You should be reading the ms2extra manual for your hardware. The code is functionally different, and typically wiring differences are recommended.

Two totally different operating systems, developed by different people.

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Old 10-08-2017, 09:18 AM   #469
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

on the springs, i would probably just check a few valves and if they are pretty close to one another set them all up with the same shims. one of these:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...iABEgIav_D_BwE
you will need one for a beehive, though. its pretty easy, just remove the existing spring, put the micrometer on there along with the spring retainer/locks, then screw it up until its snug in there effectively taking the place of a spring. then you will have your measurement.

then just go off of the spring specifications for coil bind minus your cam lift/rocker ratio. (total lift at the valve)
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Old 10-08-2017, 10:13 AM   #470
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

There is very little reference to the MSD in the MS2Extra Tunerstudio reference guide. All I could find was the following:


• Standard Dwell – this is the setting to use for most installs;


Fixed Duty – locks the spark output to a constant duty cycle instead of controlling dwell. e.g., Ford's
'Push Start' TFI modules, Bosch 'smart' ignition modules, or MSD and other CD boxes;



Time After Spark – only intended for Saab Tri-Ionic DI cassettes;


Charge at trigger – rarely used. Could be used with MSD type CDI boxes when running Basic Trigger only.


It does indicate 'charge at trigger' could be used with an MSD box, which is the only setting that worked correctly for me. I tried fixed 50% duty cycle which is commonly recommended on forums but it still backfired and did strange things.
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Old 10-08-2017, 04:25 PM   #471
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

In my experience with valve train, when I had a set of Trickflow 195cc Kenny Duttweiler serious heads on my car I also changed my lifters as well on one occasion because my lifters started collapsing after swapping to a higher spring rate. A good friend of mine that has been building engines for a while recommended that I change to a short travel lifters like the ones from Comp Cams for my application and that cured my lifter problems and boosted performance. Their are many others short travel lifters out there too, but I love CC. It's all about controlling the valve train at this point. Just my and get that thing on a dyno to confirm first and take a look at that dyno graph.
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:35 PM   #472
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

just watched your latest vid... at 6:45 the timing light looked exactly like the LT1 car i worked on with the problematic cps/reluctor setup.
does it still do that with the random pauses between the flashes? if so, i will say it is losing cps signal or not reading the wheel correctly at times. his car ran seemingly fine at idle, but it was actually not firing random plugs sometimes. if you let it sit and idle for an extended time, it would gradually choke itself down due to im assuming fouling the plugs.

switching to the holley would be a good idea for sure since you can use it with an LS should you decide to go that way in the future.
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:16 PM   #473
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZ3Astro View Post
There is very little reference to the MSD in the MS2Extra Tunerstudio reference guide. All I could find was the following:


• Standard Dwell – this is the setting to use for most installs;


• Fixed Duty – locks the spark output to a constant duty cycle instead of controlling dwell. e.g., Ford's
'Push Start' TFI modules, Bosch 'smart' ignition modules, or MSD and other CD boxes;



• Time After Spark – only intended for Saab Tri-Ionic DI cassettes;


• Charge at trigger – rarely used. Could be used with MSD type CDI boxes when running Basic Trigger only.


It does indicate 'charge at trigger' could be used with an MSD box, which is the only setting that worked correctly for me. I tried fixed 50% duty cycle which is commonly recommended on forums but it still backfired and did strange things.
Page 92 of the hardware manual.

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Old 10-11-2017, 11:33 AM   #474
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

I had to shim my springs, a few were .030 and .060" deeper than they should have been. Took me a hour or so when the heads were off the car.
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Old 10-11-2017, 06:27 PM   #475
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Diggler I think that was an artifact of the camera shutter. It's steady flashing here.
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Old 10-11-2017, 06:36 PM   #476
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Anesthes you mentioned I should use D14 for the spark output but that I was configured using JS10. Currently D14 is one of my fan controllers but I can bypass that for now. My question is could JS10 be the reason I can't get the MSD direct control to work using Standard Dwell. Mind you it does run with standard dwell, but it starts backfiring like crazy if you bring up the RPM.


Also can JS10 handle running a fan relay (assuming the software will allow that configuration)? If so I will just reverse them and change the settings.


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Old 10-11-2017, 07:08 PM   #477
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Jesus man just go LS already lol. With either a modified stock PCM or go aftermarket. My turbo setup is almost done and I’m onto wiring of the new FItech system so I hope it works good.

FWIW I ran LS6 blue springs on my stock 5.3 with 12psi and never had an issue at 6k. However the 5.3 does rock a smaller intake valve. Now I run Howard behives and they have a tad more pressure than the 1218 PACs but only cost $120 or so. At 10psi my 5.3 with a cam and ported heads was enough to break the tires loose and that was with maybe 2psi since It’s not a turbo I need rpm for boost. I expect to run 12psi with the CX kit and step it up to 14-18psi.

Hope ya get it figured out... that’s a lot of fussing and no enjoying it.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:25 PM   #478
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

i wont deny the ls swap works, but i sure do get tired of hearing that as the solution to everything under the sun.

this particular car has had a ton of issues over the years, so i totally understand throwing in the towel at some point and putting a known working plug and play ls setup in there. but nowadays i really appreciate cars like this where the owner has actually worked with what he had and conquered the obstacles. it is "different" by todays standards where the rule of thumb is to yank whatever engine is in the car and slap a junkyard 5.3 in it with a premade harness and go. i saw a feature on a $100k+ chevelle ss 454 where the guy yanked the bbc and stuck an ls in it. i mean COME ON! you mean to tell me with a nearly unlimited budget you couldnt manage to get a decent injected bbc back in there?

/rant.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:02 PM   #479
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

I would love to whip this problem for sure. It seems like everything has been stacked against me the entire build that is for sure. Frustration is always present though. If I had the cash in the bank I'd be shopping for a decently modded GT-R so I can just turn-key and go again. But I'm on this financial mission right now so I'm stuck trying to make what I have work.


For fun I'm going to put the old 16" front tires on the rear and see what it does on good old Firestone radials. If it's all over the road at any speed I might change my mind about this setup. I just don't think those old ET Streets are sticking well enough to keep this car from spinning though.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:59 AM   #480
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

one thing may be your converter... i seem to remember the place that built the converter "couldnt get it any tighter" or something to that effect. hard to really say from the vids how it acts, but that could be one reason it doesnt destroy the tires and also would make it pretty doggish off the line at the track. the LT1 ysi car i worked on had an overly tight converter in it. with ~750+ whp the best it could muster was mid 1.4 60's. he just changed converters and will be trying it out tonight.

i would stay focused on getting the ignition squared away so you know exactly how much timing it has in it, swap in some stronger valvesprings so they wont float, and then switch attention to tuning. get it on the dyno, and get some concrete information. if it is indeed making the power, its making the power. also, i wouldnt worry too much about boost numbers in comparison to an LS since your heads flow less. comparitively, you will always need to run more boost so i would just run whatever boost was needed to get power levels up to the shortblock limit. if forged pistons/good rods, i wouldnt be afraid to go 700whp on it.

Last edited by DIGGLER; 10-12-2017 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:33 AM   #481
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIGGLER View Post
i wont deny the ls swap works, but i sure do get tired of hearing that as the solution to everything under the sun.

this particular car has had a ton of issues over the years, so i totally understand throwing in the towel at some point and putting a known working plug and play ls setup in there. but nowadays i really appreciate cars like this where the owner has actually worked with what he had and conquered the obstacles. it is "different" by todays standards where the rule of thumb is to yank whatever engine is in the car and slap a junkyard 5.3 in it with a premade harness and go. i saw a feature on a $100k+ chevelle ss 454 where the guy yanked the bbc and stuck an ls in it. i mean COME ON! you mean to tell me with a nearly unlimited budget you couldnt manage to get a decent injected bbc back in there?

/rant.
Thats insane. Im right with you on that mentality. Everyone keeps giving me crap about my SBC and LS swaps. Told my buddy give me another year or two and ill be running with the big dogs in the 600 wheel range.
My buddy give me crap "why dont you LS swap their better" Give me another year or two and ill be up there with the big dogs while he still paying off his 30K car and 25K in parts.
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:37 AM   #482
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by customblackbird View Post

FWIW I ran LS6 blue springs on my stock 5.3 with 12psi and never had an issue at 6k.
Thats intresting. I called comp cams when i did my roller cam, told him i was gonna do my current heads with LS6 springs and they guy literally laughed at me. Told me they were barely good for the cam profile, nevermind with boost. Suggested i go with their 985-16 springs @ my 1.8" installed height its about 140lbs of seat pressure and around 360 at .520"
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:12 AM   #483
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

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Originally Posted by ZZ3Astro View Post
Anesthes you mentioned I should use D14 for the spark output but that I was configured using JS10. Currently D14 is one of my fan controllers but I can bypass that for now. My question is could JS10 be the reason I can't get the MSD direct control to work using Standard Dwell. Mind you it does run with standard dwell, but it starts backfiring like crazy if you bring up the RPM.


Also can JS10 handle running a fan relay (assuming the software will allow that configuration)? If so I will just reverse them and change the settings.


Steve
JS10 is better for a tach output. D14 (SparkA) better for coil/ignition control.


Looking at your tune, I'm confused about your port settings.

ALED is set to energize whenever coolant is BELOW 165?? What are you using that for ?

WLED is set to energize whenever coolant is above 185 and rpm above 350. What are you using that for ?

ILED is set to energize whenever coolant is above 165. What are you using that for ?


You can use fidle to control a relay up to 1 AMP, so that can be used for cooling fan if you desire. I have both fan relays tied together and use one output.

Have you temporarily wired in 36 to the coil to fire directly, bypassing the MSD box, to see if the breakup still occurs?

You're running off the crank sensor now, so you don't have the ignition module at all right? So I'm assuming you have pin 36 wired directly to the white wire for the MSD, and the black/orange wires directly to the coil ?


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Old 10-12-2017, 11:41 AM   #484
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

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Originally Posted by 86CamaroDan View Post
Thats intresting. I called comp cams when i did my roller cam, told him i was gonna do my current heads with LS6 springs and they guy literally laughed at me. Told me they were barely good for the cam profile, nevermind with boost. Suggested i go with their 985-16 springs @ my 1.8" installed height its about 140lbs of seat pressure and around 360 at .520"
X2. With boost you will need more than na. And most aggressive sbc roller setups will need more spring than lsx because lsx has lighter valves in general and shaft rockers for abit more rigid valvetrain
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:12 PM   #485
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

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Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ View Post
X2. With boost you will need more than na. And most aggressive sbc roller setups will need more spring than lsx because lsx has lighter valves in general and shaft rockers for abit more rigid valvetrain
It's always a constant battle between not enough spring pressure and colapsing lifters..

Howard's retrofit roller lifters doesn't want a lot of spring pressure used, but you need the pressure to keep the valves in check with an aggressive cam lobe.

Comp cams doesn't want to see more than 360lbs on their hydraulic roller lifters.

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Old 10-12-2017, 12:43 PM   #486
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Thats why you should consider running morels or if oem roller block, run ls lifters but keep your cam somewhat lower lift and tamer on lobes. With boost you dont need the aggressive na lobes. There are no issues running 400 lbs on a ls7 lifter. Morels can take closer to 500, which you'd never need if you cam right
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:54 PM   #487
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Point is ls6 springs are a mild spring for stock cams. Nobody i know will run them with boost even on stock motor. Friend i know just bent a pushrod because it got unstable on a few psi and some rpm. Stock 5.3 never opened
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:51 PM   #488
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

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Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ View Post
Thats why you should consider running morels or if oem roller block, run ls lifters but keep your cam somewhat lower lift and tamer on lobes. With boost you dont need the aggressive na lobes. There are no issues running 400 lbs on a ls7 lifter. Morels can take closer to 500, which you'd never need if you cam right
Does their documentation state that?

Howards and morels are the same lifter.

I'm running AFR 8019 springs on my 210s:

Hydraulic Roller
Red or Pink Stripe
1.270 OD
.645 ID
155 lbs. @ 1.810
448 lbs. @ 1.160
Premium Grade Chrome Silicon
PAC Racing Springs
Dual Spring
1.080 450 .650 7000-7200

When I spoke to Howards on the phone they had their panties in a tiwst about the 448lbs open pressure.

What can you do. Cam is NX276HR13 - 224/236 @ 0.050 275/287 adv .535/.554 lift 113lsa 108ctr

The lifters are re-branded Morel 5372


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Last edited by anesthes; 10-12-2017 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:29 PM   #489
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Correct, morel makes howards but there are different grades

Those are base lifters for most applications. I have read 150/400 pressures are all they will like. This typically is plenty for most sub .600" lift cams with 1.6 rockers to 6500 rpm or so. Xtreme energy lobes as an example. .500-.550 lifts. Typical 2.02-2.05 valves.

Stuff like xfi or similar aggressive lobes those lifters and pressures can do 6000-6500 maybe. Have floated 280 xfi cam with 120/320 lb springs at 5700 rpm lol. Anywhere around .600" and over 6500 rpm i would like to see more spring, 165-180 seat 400-450 open. My .640 cam heavy boosted heavy valve deal had around 190/450. 7200 rpm. Lobe was controlled off seat, compared to some others out there in the catalog

For stuff like that morel 4602 is what you need. There are guys running 220/500 pressures on them. But they cost 2 times as much lol. Thats what i used.


Afr 8019 are fantastic. I used them on my ls7 lifter 383 which was 286/230 deg lobes with .603" on a 1.6 rocker. 6800 no issue. Been 7000 and didnt hurt et much
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:59 PM   #490
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by anesthes View Post
JS10 is better for a tach output. D14 (SparkA) better for coil/ignition control.


Looking at your tune, I'm confused about your port settings.

ALED is set to energize whenever coolant is BELOW 165?? What are you using that for ?

WLED is set to energize whenever coolant is above 185 and rpm above 350. What are you using that for ?

ILED is set to energize whenever coolant is above 165. What are you using that for ?

I'm using them for dual fan control. The remaining LED I probably programmed as a diagnostic to make sure the fans were off because they were supposed to be off based on coolant temp.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anesthes View Post
Have you temporarily wired in 36 to the coil to fire directly, bypassing the MSD box, to see if the breakup still occurs?

You're running off the crank sensor now, so you don't have the ignition module at all right? So I'm assuming you have pin 36 wired directly to the white wire for the MSD, and the black/orange wires directly to the coil ?

That is correct.. 36 direct to the white wire on the MSD. No I have not tried bypassing MSD yet but I think my Megasquirt harness is still configured to work with a bypass harness I made to do just that in case the MSD ever failed on the road. I will try that soon. Maybe... see below..


So today a friend came by and I wanted to put the Firestone radials on the back so we could go for a ride. When I backed it up onto the concrete to swap tires, I thought I'd show my *** a bit and use the launch control to spool the turbo a bit. It had a massive backfire in the exhaust system. It turns out the firmware update completely changed the options for launch control (less settings now). It was set to spark cut only and I guess the fuel puddled so when I let off it lit. Well that incident killed the WBO2 sensor. I don't want to sink money into a new O2 sensor that I can't use with the Holley so this may be the last straw for the MS. At one point I think I had another sensor laying around but its been forever since I've seen it. Maybe I can find it.


FWIW we decided to go ahead and drive it around the block for the radial tire test. These are six year old Wide Ovals around 27 psi. I can spin the wheels at anything below 40 mph in 1st and 2nd. It's not tire smoking spinning though, just squealing kind of spinning. Anything over 40-45 it hooks unless I brakeboost and then it spins a little and stops. I should mention it was just starting to sprinkle very lightly. I wouldn't call the roads wet at that point but they have been better.
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Old 10-16-2017, 04:13 PM   #491
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Holley parts list sent to my dealer. I'm not gonna waste time doing this 1/2 way. I'm doing the analog efi gauges and all. No more guessing what the fuel pressure is doing etc.



EFI hardware:
554-114 Dominator PCM
558-308 Main Power Harness
558-101 TPI Harness
558-200 Injector Harness EV1 Connector
558-410 Ignition Harness Hall Effect crank/cam
558-307 LSx coil harness
558-405 4L60E/80E Harness
554-101 Bosch WB02
557-200 Boost Control Kit
558-403 – J3 ECU Connector for aux input/output


Gauge hardware:
553-140 Gauge Power Harness
553-143 Daisy Chain Cable 1 foot (will need 6 qty of these)
554-144 Daisy Chain Cable 3 foot (will need 1 qty only)
554-130 EFI Gauge Module adapter
553-127W Oil Pressure white face
553-128W Coolant Temp white face
553-129W Fuel Pressure white face
553-130W Vacuum Boost white face
553-131W Air/Fuel Left white face
553-146W EFI Tach white face 3-3/8”
553-122W EFI Speedo white face 3-3/8”
553-108 3.5” touch screen
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Old 10-16-2017, 04:35 PM   #492
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86CamaroDan View Post
Thats intresting. I called comp cams when i did my roller cam, told him i was gonna do my current heads with LS6 springs and they guy literally laughed at me. Told me they were barely good for the cam profile, nevermind with boost. Suggested i go with their 985-16 springs @ my 1.8" installed height its about 140lbs of seat pressure and around 360 at .520"

Stock truck cam is 191/190 .460 or .470 something lift. The LS6 springs were designed for the LS6 cam which has over 20 degrees duration and .525 lift or something.

First thing I would do is not put too much faith in CC. Just like those 918 springs that were breaking all the time. I would go with PAC over CC. From a guy who ran it in the real world here, stock LM7, stock cam, LS6 spring swap and 12psi and never skipped a beat to 6k.
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Old 10-16-2017, 06:12 PM   #493
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZ3Astro View Post
Holley parts list sent to my dealer. I'm not gonna waste time doing this 1/2 way. I'm doing the analog efi gauges and all. No more guessing what the fuel pressure is doing etc.



EFI hardware:
554-114 Dominator PCM
558-308 Main Power Harness
558-101 TPI Harness
558-200 Injector Harness EV1 Connector
558-410 Ignition Harness Hall Effect crank/cam
558-307 LSx coil harness
558-405 4L60E/80E Harness
554-101 Bosch WB02
557-200 Boost Control Kit
558-403 – J3 ECU Connector for aux input/output


Gauge hardware:
553-140 Gauge Power Harness
553-143 Daisy Chain Cable 1 foot (will need 6 qty of these)
554-144 Daisy Chain Cable 3 foot (will need 1 qty only)
554-130 EFI Gauge Module adapter
553-127W Oil Pressure white face
553-128W Coolant Temp white face
553-129W Fuel Pressure white face
553-130W Vacuum Boost white face
553-131W Air/Fuel Left white face
553-146W EFI Tach white face 3-3/8”
553-122W EFI Speedo white face 3-3/8”
553-108 3.5” touch screen
niiiice!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:21 PM   #494
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZ3Astro View Post
Holley parts list sent to my dealer. I'm not gonna waste time doing this 1/2 way. I'm doing the analog efi gauges and all. No more guessing what the fuel pressure is doing etc.



EFI hardware:
554-114 Dominator PCM
558-308 Main Power Harness
558-101 TPI Harness
558-200 Injector Harness EV1 Connector
558-410 Ignition Harness Hall Effect crank/cam
558-307 LSx coil harness
558-405 4L60E/80E Harness
554-101 Bosch WB02
557-200 Boost Control Kit
558-403 – J3 ECU Connector for aux input/output


Gauge hardware:
553-140 Gauge Power Harness
553-143 Daisy Chain Cable 1 foot (will need 6 qty of these)
554-144 Daisy Chain Cable 3 foot (will need 1 qty only)
554-130 EFI Gauge Module adapter
553-127W Oil Pressure white face
553-128W Coolant Temp white face
553-129W Fuel Pressure white face
553-130W Vacuum Boost white face
553-131W Air/Fuel Left white face
553-146W EFI Tach white face 3-3/8”
553-122W EFI Speedo white face 3-3/8”
553-108 3.5” touch screen
Doesnt the power harness come with the tpi harness? And it should already have ev1's. If doin coil packs might be easier to go ls1 harness and mod to match sensor locations. From my ls1 harness from holley it looks complete with power harness.
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Old 10-16-2017, 10:30 PM   #495
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Orr, I don't know much about the Holley stuff but I used the configurator to build the order. It specifies selecting the injector harness in addition to the main (tpi in this case) harness. I believe the main harness plugs into J1A and is an input only harness. It also says when buying the ECU separately that a main power harness is required. Maybe if you buy the LS combo 550-602 it's included idk.


Might be cheaper to go LS1 harness and mod for sensor locations but not easier. You're talking about changing plugs as well as lengthening wires etc. Well except for tpi and iac in my case. But I don't want to chop up the harness. Time consuming and money is more plentiful than time these days.


http://documents.holley.com/efi_sele...chart62914.pdf
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:08 AM   #496
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Yeah i bought the combo ecu and harness together but it looked like the power harness was with the ls1 engine harness.

Sounds like you still need to mess with harness some to get lsx coil packs and crank trigger to work. Thats what i am doing with my ls1 harness. Adding holleys 36-1 end to the crank sensor and extending the cam sensor to work with the 1x efi connection distributor.

Good luck with the build, i think you will love the holley stuff

And if you need lsx coils i have my D581 truck coils for sale from my turbo car.
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:45 AM   #497
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

I will need coils and the 4:1 harness for each set of coils. I'm debating on options for that at the moment but I will let you know shortly. Placed order today for everything. If I don't like the results I will just be a harness away from LS power and best of all I am 4L80e ready with this setup, so I can start saving up for that. Just need to decide on gen1 vs LS before I pull that trigger.
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Old 10-17-2017, 01:14 PM   #498
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

cool, so you should have an install vid up by the weekend. i'll be on the lookout.

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Old 10-17-2017, 03:51 PM   #499
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Haha I wish! I'm debating on just how much I want to put on Youtube these days. Every time I meet someone in the regional racing scene they know more about my Iroc than I do! It hasn't been a factor since it's been too slow to race but eventually I have to keep my chickens in the coop. I plan to spread lots of false information eventually. Maybe I'll 'go back to a stock engine and tpi' at some point. ;-)
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Old 10-20-2017, 08:02 AM   #500
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)

Quick update.. I bypassed the MSD 6AL and ran direct coil. I'm still getting a strange misfire in the exhaust note. It is hard to label it a misfire. The tune is still not complete so it could be some lean areas in the free rev engine load areas but I've also heard this sound driving down the road with the correct A/F. The sound is the same as you get when the A/F is a little too lean. For fun I'm going to drive it today just to see what it does, but I don't expect any improvement.


Since I have the Dominator on the way, I decided to go all the way and eliminate the distributor now. Originally I had thoughts of waiting "to see" but I really like the idea of eliminating that mess entirely and running remote coils, not to mention sequential.


I ordered a billet cam sync distributor ($125). I would have just used a stock Vortec but I don't like the idea of it being all plastic and beating on it.


For plug wires I was looking at a number of options but buying MSD 34013 (25 foot roll Super Conductor 8.5mm) and making them seems to be the most popular way. I also ordered MSD Pro Race high temp boots.


For coils I ordered a set of oem D585 (used for now), remote mounting brackets and extension harness. No idea where I will find room to mount these but I sure would like to have it all under the engine and out of sight.


And for the record, I swear my engine is making a strange noise at idle. More of a chatter than a knocking sound. Piston slap maybe? I just don't remember it before recently. I decided yesterday that I will not troubleshoot any problems I have with this engine moving forward. Either it works out great when I bolt all of this together, or it gets replaced with LS. Anything that isn't obviously being caused by the Holley setup and I'm yanking it to part out the gen1. I should get enough from the heads, intake and headers to mostly fund the LS swap. SHOULD!
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