Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
09-20-2017, 06:17 AM
#351
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Spark has always been an issue with this ecm/hei combo for me. I've always had to compensate in the spark tables but it was easier when I was barely turning 5k. Now with 6200+ and the error being exponential, it's just silly. Also my timing has never looked stable with a timing light when turning up the rpm. It has always moved around a few degrees while watching it even with the timing locked in the various tables.
timing jumping around when using a timing light is most likely due to the slack in the timing chain.
Transmission slip in 3rd gear is possible but it is definitely not slipping in 1st or 2nd at all. The 3rd gear clutches were showing signs of slippage when I had it apart a couple thousand miles ago. Fluid still looks/smells perfect. It is clearly not engaging 3rd gear under WOT but if I let out and get back in it the rpm locks down and does not flare upward.
Am I wrong to think this car should be out of control in at least 1st gear? These ET's are almost to the wear bar and I bought them USED about three years ago. If it was making 700 at the crank I'd think even 2nd gear would be spin happy on certain pavement types given the condition of the tires and zero traction enhancements to the car (aside from rear mounting the battery). Now I can stomp it from a stop and yes it will spin 1st and 2nd but it has yet to break traction under a rolling start.
Am I wrong to think this car should be out of control in at least 1st gear? These ET's are almost to the wear bar and I bought them USED about three years ago. If it was making 700 at the crank I'd think even 2nd gear would be spin happy on certain pavement types given the condition of the tires and zero traction enhancements to the car (aside from rear mounting the battery). Now I can stomp it from a stop and yes it will spin 1st and 2nd but it has yet to break traction under a rolling start.
-but really, you should be able to make the ms work too.
09-20-2017, 06:35 AM
#353
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
My thought the actual timing is low because of this error, and its hard to really trust where it is for sure when you have an exponential error like that. -just that its backed off from where it should be. could it be up to 15+ degrees? if it lost 10hp per 1 degree of timing pulled, that would be 150hp. (very rough numbers, it may only lose 5-8hp)
timing jumping around when using a timing light is most likely due to the slack in the timing chain.
timing jumping around when using a timing light is most likely due to the slack in the timing chain.
i am with you on all this. the car should roast tires at will i would think. as for the ignition stuff, you can use just the crank trigger. adding a cam sensor would allow sequential, which is no big deal, you dont need it. eficonnection sells a 24x kit for a sbc that would work well for your car, but it is fairly expensive and you would have to do some wiring as well as mounting the coils and such. i have installed some of their stuff as well as torqhead on an LT1 with success. the features in the holley are nice, but really i dont know how often you would use that stuff. i think you would enjoy your car more as a cruiser than a race oriented setup and the LS pcm would be great for that.
-but really, you should be able to make the ms work too.
-but really, you should be able to make the ms work too.
Unless he's planning on using the wheel to trigger and firing the single coil directly (and keep the dizzy), which I guess is fine too. But at high RPM he might reach the limits of spark energy on a single coil.
My 412 doesn't make power past 6k so I'm not as concerned.
-- Joe
09-20-2017, 07:19 AM
#354
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Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
I thought that was my case for a while but after doing a new cam/double roller chain this year mine still jumps around like before.
09-20-2017, 07:28 AM
#355
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Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: Turbocharged 5.7 Pro-Fl-XT
Transmission: 700R4 for moment
Axle/Gears: 3.25 9 inch
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Right now will use the crank trigger to handle coil firing and keeping distributor. Can't do coil per cylinder with my MS2, at least in its current configuration. I'd have to free up some outputs and run it in wasted spark mode. I'd rather just upgrade to a new computer with dedicated outputs so I can run both coil per and sequential injection when the time comes.
Sadly the crank trigger may have zero impact on the performance issue. I guess the plan is to try to get the spark timing exact so I know what I'm working with. Once I have solid numbers then I'll have justification to really mope if it is indeed making 20 degrees and running so lack-luster!
Sadly the crank trigger may have zero impact on the performance issue. I guess the plan is to try to get the spark timing exact so I know what I'm working with. Once I have solid numbers then I'll have justification to really mope if it is indeed making 20 degrees and running so lack-luster!
09-20-2017, 08:39 AM
#356
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
single coil- nascars have made it by with 1 coil for many many years. 9k+ rpms.
do you have an ignition box of some sort on the car?
Last edited by DIGGLER; 09-20-2017 at 08:44 AM.
09-20-2017, 10:08 AM
#357
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Right now will use the crank trigger to handle coil firing and keeping distributor. Can't do coil per cylinder with my MS2, at least in its current configuration. I'd have to free up some outputs and run it in wasted spark mode. I'd rather just upgrade to a new computer with dedicated outputs so I can run both coil per and sequential injection when the time comes.
Sadly the crank trigger may have zero impact on the performance issue. I guess the plan is to try to get the spark timing exact so I know what I'm working with. Once I have solid numbers then I'll have justification to really mope if it is indeed making 20 degrees and running so lack-luster!
Sadly the crank trigger may have zero impact on the performance issue. I guess the plan is to try to get the spark timing exact so I know what I'm working with. Once I have solid numbers then I'll have justification to really mope if it is indeed making 20 degrees and running so lack-luster!
--- Joe
09-20-2017, 02:22 PM
#358
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Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: Turbocharged 5.7 Pro-Fl-XT
Transmission: 700R4 for moment
Axle/Gears: 3.25 9 inch
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
I have a 6AL (yes it is wired direct to the battery!)
Regarding the outputs, dual fan control and non-working boost control. I'm not sure if anything else it's been way too long since I did it. Wasted spark could probably be made to work - I can reuse the boost control outputs I suppose.
Ok I have spec'd out a Holley Dominator system and a Megasquirt 3 Pro Ultimate (closest comparable MS to the Dom)
554-114 $1990.95 Holley Dominator ECU
558-308 $ 59.83 Main Power Harness
558-101 $332.95 TPI Harness
558-200 $117.95 Injector Harness EV1 Connector
558-410 $ 59.83 Ignition Harness Hall Effect crank/cam
558-307 $ 99.76 LSx coil harness
558-405 $170.95 4L60E/80E Harness
554-101 $146.95 Bosch WB02
557-200 $103.95 Boost Control Kit
TOTAL: $3083.12
--------------------------
$2548.00 MS3Pro Ultimate + 24x harness (would require reworking to fit gen1)
$ 499.00 Microsquirt CAN Transmission Control + Harness
$ 53.00 Boost Control Solenoid
Total $3100
What, what? MORE than the Dom! And I'd have to do work on the LS harness to make it work with my gen1, but it's the easiest way to have the sequential wiring for the injectors and individual coil control. Plus it's still $300 for the pigtail harness so that's only $400 less and you have to build every connector. Also the MS route would re-use my O2 while the Holley has its own calibrated O2 sensor included in the configuration above. Apples for Apples I think it is no contest. You could configure a lower cost MS but if I want stand-alone transmission control I also could just go Holley HP, so MS doesn't automatically win the price battle even stripped down.
Regarding the outputs, dual fan control and non-working boost control. I'm not sure if anything else it's been way too long since I did it. Wasted spark could probably be made to work - I can reuse the boost control outputs I suppose.
Ok I have spec'd out a Holley Dominator system and a Megasquirt 3 Pro Ultimate (closest comparable MS to the Dom)
554-114 $1990.95 Holley Dominator ECU
558-308 $ 59.83 Main Power Harness
558-101 $332.95 TPI Harness
558-200 $117.95 Injector Harness EV1 Connector
558-410 $ 59.83 Ignition Harness Hall Effect crank/cam
558-307 $ 99.76 LSx coil harness
558-405 $170.95 4L60E/80E Harness
554-101 $146.95 Bosch WB02
557-200 $103.95 Boost Control Kit
TOTAL: $3083.12
--------------------------
$2548.00 MS3Pro Ultimate + 24x harness (would require reworking to fit gen1)
$ 499.00 Microsquirt CAN Transmission Control + Harness
$ 53.00 Boost Control Solenoid
Total $3100
What, what? MORE than the Dom! And I'd have to do work on the LS harness to make it work with my gen1, but it's the easiest way to have the sequential wiring for the injectors and individual coil control. Plus it's still $300 for the pigtail harness so that's only $400 less and you have to build every connector. Also the MS route would re-use my O2 while the Holley has its own calibrated O2 sensor included in the configuration above. Apples for Apples I think it is no contest. You could configure a lower cost MS but if I want stand-alone transmission control I also could just go Holley HP, so MS doesn't automatically win the price battle even stripped down.
09-20-2017, 02:38 PM
#359
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Seems like a lot of money either way.
Do you need all those features? Why not just fix the spark issue with the crank wheel and some cheap coils and enjoy driving it?
Do you need all those features? Why not just fix the spark issue with the crank wheel and some cheap coils and enjoy driving it?
09-20-2017, 03:35 PM
#360
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
I have a 6AL (yes it is wired direct to the battery!)
Regarding the outputs, dual fan control and non-working boost control. I'm not sure if anything else it's been way too long since I did it. Wasted spark could probably be made to work - I can reuse the boost control outputs I suppose.
Ok I have spec'd out a Holley Dominator system and a Megasquirt 3 Pro Ultimate (closest comparable MS to the Dom)
554-114 $1990.95 Holley Dominator ECU
558-308 $ 59.83 Main Power Harness
558-101 $332.95 TPI Harness
558-200 $117.95 Injector Harness EV1 Connector
558-410 $ 59.83 Ignition Harness Hall Effect crank/cam
558-307 $ 99.76 LSx coil harness
558-405 $170.95 4L60E/80E Harness
554-101 $146.95 Bosch WB02
557-200 $103.95 Boost Control Kit
TOTAL: $3083.12
--------------------------
$2548.00 MS3Pro Ultimate + 24x harness (would require reworking to fit gen1)
$ 499.00 Microsquirt CAN Transmission Control + Harness
$ 53.00 Boost Control Solenoid
Total $3100
What, what? MORE than the Dom! And I'd have to do work on the LS harness to make it work with my gen1, but it's the easiest way to have the sequential wiring for the injectors and individual coil control. Plus it's still $300 for the pigtail harness so that's only $400 less and you have to build every connector. Also the MS route would re-use my O2 while the Holley has its own calibrated O2 sensor included in the configuration above. Apples for Apples I think it is no contest. You could configure a lower cost MS but if I want stand-alone transmission control I also could just go Holley HP, so MS doesn't automatically win the price battle even stripped down.
Regarding the outputs, dual fan control and non-working boost control. I'm not sure if anything else it's been way too long since I did it. Wasted spark could probably be made to work - I can reuse the boost control outputs I suppose.
Ok I have spec'd out a Holley Dominator system and a Megasquirt 3 Pro Ultimate (closest comparable MS to the Dom)
554-114 $1990.95 Holley Dominator ECU
558-308 $ 59.83 Main Power Harness
558-101 $332.95 TPI Harness
558-200 $117.95 Injector Harness EV1 Connector
558-410 $ 59.83 Ignition Harness Hall Effect crank/cam
558-307 $ 99.76 LSx coil harness
558-405 $170.95 4L60E/80E Harness
554-101 $146.95 Bosch WB02
557-200 $103.95 Boost Control Kit
TOTAL: $3083.12
--------------------------
$2548.00 MS3Pro Ultimate + 24x harness (would require reworking to fit gen1)
$ 499.00 Microsquirt CAN Transmission Control + Harness
$ 53.00 Boost Control Solenoid
Total $3100
What, what? MORE than the Dom! And I'd have to do work on the LS harness to make it work with my gen1, but it's the easiest way to have the sequential wiring for the injectors and individual coil control. Plus it's still $300 for the pigtail harness so that's only $400 less and you have to build every connector. Also the MS route would re-use my O2 while the Holley has its own calibrated O2 sensor included in the configuration above. Apples for Apples I think it is no contest. You could configure a lower cost MS but if I want stand-alone transmission control I also could just go Holley HP, so MS doesn't automatically win the price battle even stripped down.
there is no moving parts in the dizzy, right? So you can just set rotor phasing and ms will take care of timing adjustments?
09-20-2017, 03:42 PM
#361
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
I agree with Joe and freeing up 3 more I/O and running 8 coils total. 2 coils wire to each of the 4 I/O to fire in wasted spark mode. That will give way more spark time than needed for an LSx coil and way more spark than whatever coil you have in there now. What coil is in it right now?
And it won't be money wasted because it seems you are headed for 8 coils anyway.
I can't find any specs on the 6AL output power (voltage and current limit). Who knows if it is even better than a stock junk HEI module? Yeah, it will spit out multiple sparks at useless rpms..........but what about power output at high rpm?
I would run the MS2 with 4 I/O in wasted spark mode with 8 coils.
As for the crank wheel and timing slop, when you "floor" it the timing chain is under a load and has constant timing so it isn't jumping around. And who cares what the timing is when you let off the throttle (so you lose hp when letting off). Crank trigger is neat, but if you fix your timing constant it should be fine.
Joe,
How did you figure a timing latency of 38usec for your crank trigger (o'scope)?. Did you say that MS only has a constant and this is why ZZ is having the timing errors? If they aren't doing the math properly then yeah a fixed latency will end up with exponential timing error. But cmon, MS code has been around a long time and should be solid in this department.
And it won't be money wasted because it seems you are headed for 8 coils anyway.
I can't find any specs on the 6AL output power (voltage and current limit). Who knows if it is even better than a stock junk HEI module? Yeah, it will spit out multiple sparks at useless rpms..........but what about power output at high rpm?
I would run the MS2 with 4 I/O in wasted spark mode with 8 coils.
As for the crank wheel and timing slop, when you "floor" it the timing chain is under a load and has constant timing so it isn't jumping around. And who cares what the timing is when you let off the throttle (so you lose hp when letting off). Crank trigger is neat, but if you fix your timing constant it should be fine.
Joe,
How did you figure a timing latency of 38usec for your crank trigger (o'scope)?. Did you say that MS only has a constant and this is why ZZ is having the timing errors? If they aren't doing the math properly then yeah a fixed latency will end up with exponential timing error. But cmon, MS code has been around a long time and should be solid in this department.
09-20-2017, 03:49 PM
#362
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
I just found where it says the 6AL requires .9 amps input for every 1,000 rpm.
At 6k rpm, that is .9 * 6 = 5.4 Amps of input power. Suppose it chews up .25amps internally. That leaves 5.2 amps of output power. That sucks. Barely better than a stock HEI module.
The vortec stock HEI module puts out 7.5 amps.
Please tell me that the 6AL puts out more than calculated above, or is it really just junk?
EDIT: It gets worse. The MSD 6AL 6425 draws .7amps per 1,000. So .7 * 6 = 4.2 AMPs. Worse than an HEI module.
At 6k rpm, that is .9 * 6 = 5.4 Amps of input power. Suppose it chews up .25amps internally. That leaves 5.2 amps of output power. That sucks. Barely better than a stock HEI module.
The vortec stock HEI module puts out 7.5 amps.
Please tell me that the 6AL puts out more than calculated above, or is it really just junk?
EDIT: It gets worse. The MSD 6AL 6425 draws .7amps per 1,000. So .7 * 6 = 4.2 AMPs. Worse than an HEI module.
Last edited by junkcltr; 09-20-2017 at 04:04 PM.
09-20-2017, 05:14 PM
#363
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
- Rob
09-20-2017, 06:33 PM
#364
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Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: Turbocharged 5.7 Pro-Fl-XT
Transmission: 700R4 for moment
Axle/Gears: 3.25 9 inch
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Regarding the high end computer, mainly because I want to control a 4L80e and also because of sequential and coil per cylinder at some point in the future. If I'm going to put effort in redoing the wiring harness etc I'd rather put that time into the better solution.
Today's efforts yielded some possible results. Haven't driven yet because the laptop battery died while I was distracted by other chores. As I've done before I went back to the basic setup instructions for the MS/HEI and put in recommended settings. At some point the recommended 'rising edge' capture event was changed to falling edge. I zero'd out every timing modifier table and put a flat 20 degrees into the main timing table. One setting I left untouched was 'spark hardware latency' which is set to max of 170 usec.
First start showed timing out by 20 degrees (advanced) at idle. I reset the distributor to the correct position with an average of 20 degrees on the timing tab. Some ignition events occur up to 5 degrees away (according to the timing light) but the average timing held quite steady. I am not seeing the timing retard with free revving up to 4500 or so. Before it would have dropped 8+ degrees.
Next I am going to generate completely new timing tables with realistic numbers. If the timing is now accurate it should still make the same power even with the lower numbers.
This is a long shot, but I am thinking that if it was firing with the distributor in a 20 degrees advanced position, there is the possibility some or all of the spark was going to the next plug at some point. I believe this would actually be exacerbated by timing retard. The spark happens later, so the rotor is even closer to the next lug when the spark finally happens.
Today's efforts yielded some possible results. Haven't driven yet because the laptop battery died while I was distracted by other chores. As I've done before I went back to the basic setup instructions for the MS/HEI and put in recommended settings. At some point the recommended 'rising edge' capture event was changed to falling edge. I zero'd out every timing modifier table and put a flat 20 degrees into the main timing table. One setting I left untouched was 'spark hardware latency' which is set to max of 170 usec.
First start showed timing out by 20 degrees (advanced) at idle. I reset the distributor to the correct position with an average of 20 degrees on the timing tab. Some ignition events occur up to 5 degrees away (according to the timing light) but the average timing held quite steady. I am not seeing the timing retard with free revving up to 4500 or so. Before it would have dropped 8+ degrees.
Next I am going to generate completely new timing tables with realistic numbers. If the timing is now accurate it should still make the same power even with the lower numbers.
This is a long shot, but I am thinking that if it was firing with the distributor in a 20 degrees advanced position, there is the possibility some or all of the spark was going to the next plug at some point. I believe this would actually be exacerbated by timing retard. The spark happens later, so the rotor is even closer to the next lug when the spark finally happens.
09-20-2017, 07:47 PM
#365
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
I agree with Joe and freeing up 3 more I/O and running 8 coils total. 2 coils wire to each of the 4 I/O to fire in wasted spark mode. That will give way more spark time than needed for an LSx coil and way more spark than whatever coil you have in there now. What coil is in it right now?
He also has PA0, and PE1 which can be used for cooling fans, boost controllers, and a bunch of other crap. When DiyAutoTune sells a MS2-PNP they use PA0 and PE1 for fans, TCC, wg, etc and keep the 4 spark outputs open for 4 cyl full CNP or 8 cyl wasted spark CNP.
Joe,
How did you figure a timing latency of 38usec for your crank trigger (o'scope)?. Did you say that MS only has a constant and this is why ZZ is having the timing errors? If they aren't doing the math properly then yeah a fixed latency will end up with exponential timing error. But cmon, MS code has been around a long time and should be solid in this department.
How did you figure a timing latency of 38usec for your crank trigger (o'scope)?. Did you say that MS only has a constant and this is why ZZ is having the timing errors? If they aren't doing the math properly then yeah a fixed latency will end up with exponential timing error. But cmon, MS code has been around a long time and should be solid in this department.
I'm not sure if there is an RPM multiplier or not, i'd have to find that segment of code which I'll do if I have time tomorrow. It's not well documented, and a lot of folks recommend setting it until the timing light matches TS at 50% your expected RPM. That recommendation might be just experience, or based on how the code works.
A LOT of people have spark error issues with MS and HEI because they have that set to 0. 170 seems way high to me, if it's set to high you'll have too much advance at idle/low RPM.
He is going on butt feel only though. I cannot believe that Megasquirt does not have a 1/4 mile analysis, and if it does, he needs to utilize it. Running the analysis with the EBL-P4 immediately showed me my valves were not holding last year so there was no need to speculate and assume a timing issue was the cause in my case, it was right there in front of me. Everyone here is assuming, bottom line is an analysis of a 1/4 mile pull with his MS with the data readings will show what is wrong. Nobody here can go on what is being explained, we can't diagnose based on the lack of tire spin and a shifting problem. Timing is torque control, and and it is easy to confirm where everything is with the proper data provided during a 1/4 mile pull. That is the bottom line. Find an empty street, set the MS on record, and make a damn pull already.
- Rob
- Rob
The tuning/logging/analysis software isn't written or provided by Megasquirt, it's provided by EFI Analytics. Megasquirt is just the management system.
I don't know if ZZ3astro has licensed full versions of the tuning/logging software or not, so I'm unaware of his capabilities.
His lack of ability to roast the tires aside, he said he has observed a timing error with the light vs what is displayed in TS, so he needs to correct that. He can troubleshoot transmission slip later.
-- Joe
09-20-2017, 08:08 PM
#366
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Tried to avoid arguing with you Joe, but you're wrong...
EBL does have quarter mile analysis, I use it all the time. Just click on analysis, then 1/4 mile analysis. A solid run once 1-mph is reached throughout the 1/4 mile is monitored and observed, and data for all distances is captures, along with all sensor data readings...
His tune is essentially the same in comparison with the old setup, and he easily roasted the tires as he admitted repeatedly in every video he compares his new setup to with. He is complaining that he cannot smoke the tires from a roll like he was able to with the setup he just changed from, not to mention he admitted to the trans being on its' way out repeatedly, and even suggests putting the one in from the 4200 he just acquired to replace the 700R4. Let that sink in and resonate a little before you assume it is his timing, because his power, and weight, dictate what he has been running at the RPM he chose to stay in with the old setup. He changed his setup entirely...
- Rob
Edit: ... for EBL Data Analysis and 1/4 Mile Analysis screen shots;
http://dynamicefi.com/EBL_ScreenShot...es/wud_010.jpg
http://dynamicefi.com/EBL_ScreenShot...es/wud_011.jpg
Originally Posted by anesthes
Well MS doesn't have 1/4 mile analysis and neither does EBL.
Originally Posted by anesthes
His lack of ability to roast the tires aside, he said he has observed a timing error with the light vs what is displayed in TS, so he needs to correct that. He can troubleshoot transmission slip later.
-- Joe
-- Joe
- Rob
Edit: ... for EBL Data Analysis and 1/4 Mile Analysis screen shots;
http://dynamicefi.com/EBL_ScreenShot...es/wud_010.jpg
http://dynamicefi.com/EBL_ScreenShot...es/wud_011.jpg
Last edited by Street Lethal; 09-20-2017 at 08:21 PM.
09-20-2017, 08:43 PM
#367
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Tried to avoid arguing with you Joe, but you're wrong...
EBL does have quarter mile analysis, I use it all the time. Just click on analysis, then 1/4 mile analysis. A solid run once 1-mph is reached throughout the 1/4 mile is monitored and observed, and data for all distances is captures, along with all sensor data readings...
EBL does have quarter mile analysis, I use it all the time. Just click on analysis, then 1/4 mile analysis. A solid run once 1-mph is reached throughout the 1/4 mile is monitored and observed, and data for all distances is captures, along with all sensor data readings...
I believe the original WUD software was written by Jon Prevost.
-- Joe
09-20-2017, 09:03 PM
#368
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Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: Turbocharged 5.7 Pro-Fl-XT
Transmission: 700R4 for moment
Axle/Gears: 3.25 9 inch
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Lethal - You misunderstood my comment about the 4200 transmission. I would never waste the time to put another 700/4L behind this setup. I may take the internals from the Iroc transmission and use them in the 4200's 4L6 and that is what I was talking about possibly doing. Just wanted to clear that up. 
So I loaded up new timing tables, pretty much flat from 2600 and up as follows:
kPa Adv
230 16
205 18
180 20
155 22
130 28
With those numbers it felt good. I think 1st gear even had a momentary traction problem.. but it was not 'out of control' in any way and that was with 17-19 psi. I tried to break traction in each gear and like I said first may have around 15 mph.
With 8.5:1 and fastburn heads, what do you think I could get away with if the numbers are 1:1 with what the engine is doing? I still have a lot of power left on the table with the fuel tuning, which is currently too rich in a number of places.
The version of TunerStudio I have DID have datalog viewer but my laptop died and when I reinstalled it, I have to buy it. I'm certain I never paid for that before so I guess it is a change he made to the free version. I hate to buy it when I'm possibly on the edge of changing over to Holley, but right now I can only view my logs on the desktop computer which sucks.
So I loaded up new timing tables, pretty much flat from 2600 and up as follows:
kPa Adv
230 16
205 18
180 20
155 22
130 28
With those numbers it felt good. I think 1st gear even had a momentary traction problem.. but it was not 'out of control' in any way and that was with 17-19 psi. I tried to break traction in each gear and like I said first may have around 15 mph.
With 8.5:1 and fastburn heads, what do you think I could get away with if the numbers are 1:1 with what the engine is doing? I still have a lot of power left on the table with the fuel tuning, which is currently too rich in a number of places.
The version of TunerStudio I have DID have datalog viewer but my laptop died and when I reinstalled it, I have to buy it. I'm certain I never paid for that before so I guess it is a change he made to the free version. I hate to buy it when I'm possibly on the edge of changing over to Holley, but right now I can only view my logs on the desktop computer which sucks.
09-20-2017, 09:09 PM
#369
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Lethal - You misunderstood my comment about the 4200 transmission. I would never waste the time to put another 700/4L behind this setup. I may take the internals from the Iroc transmission and use them in the 4200's 4L6 and that is what I was talking about possibly doing. Just wanted to clear that up.
So I loaded up new timing tables, pretty much flat from 2600 and up as follows:
kPa Adv
230 16
205 18
180 20
155 22
130 28
With those numbers it felt good. I think 1st gear even had a momentary traction problem.. but it was not 'out of control' in any way and that was with 17-19 psi. I tried to break traction in each gear and like I said first may have around 15 mph.
With 8.5:1 and fastburn heads, what do you think I could get away with if the numbers are 1:1 with what the engine is doing? I still have a lot of power left on the table with the fuel tuning, which is currently too rich in a number of places.
The version of TunerStudio I have DID have datalog viewer but my laptop died and when I reinstalled it, I have to buy it. I'm certain I never paid for that before so I guess it is a change he made to the free version. I hate to buy it when I'm possibly on the edge of changing over to Holley, but right now I can only view my logs on the desktop computer which sucks.
So I loaded up new timing tables, pretty much flat from 2600 and up as follows:
kPa Adv
230 16
205 18
180 20
155 22
130 28
With those numbers it felt good. I think 1st gear even had a momentary traction problem.. but it was not 'out of control' in any way and that was with 17-19 psi. I tried to break traction in each gear and like I said first may have around 15 mph.
With 8.5:1 and fastburn heads, what do you think I could get away with if the numbers are 1:1 with what the engine is doing? I still have a lot of power left on the table with the fuel tuning, which is currently too rich in a number of places.
The version of TunerStudio I have DID have datalog viewer but my laptop died and when I reinstalled it, I have to buy it. I'm certain I never paid for that before so I guess it is a change he made to the free version. I hate to buy it when I'm possibly on the edge of changing over to Holley, but right now I can only view my logs on the desktop computer which sucks.
-- Joe
09-20-2017, 09:39 PM
#370
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
I agree with Joe and freeing up 3 more I/O and running 8 coils total. 2 coils wire to each of the 4 I/O to fire in wasted spark mode. That will give way more spark time than needed for an LSx coil and way more spark than whatever coil you have in there now. What coil is in it right now?
As for the crank wheel and timing slop, when you "floor" it the timing chain is under a load and has constant timing so it isn't jumping around. And who cares what the timing is when you let off the throttle (so you lose hp when letting off). Crank trigger is neat, but if you fix your timing constant it should be fine.
09-20-2017, 10:12 PM
#371
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
All of the guys posting know the feel between the trans slipping and the engine just not feeling right. Each has plenty of experience.
The 4 coil wasted spark is an end all to the question of if the ignition is making enough energy to avoid spark blowout and making max hp.
In terms of 6AL energy, I don't have direct experience. If Dig has experience and says a 6AL and good coil will perform then I believe him. Although the math and specs from MSD don't make sense.
One thing I am sure of is that the MS2 or any ECM needs the right setup from the user. If MS says to set up with "x" edge for an HEI then do it. If MS says to set "z" latency for an HEI module then enter it. Without the right setup no ECM will perform properly.
As for the 1/4 mile time ECM stuff............it is using the VSS and wheel speed. If the VSS resolution sucks (think stock GM ECM of that era) or the wheels spin then it is has too much error. Overall, it is useless unless if uses the front wheels that stay on the ground and has 36x wheel resolution.
The 4 coil wasted spark is an end all to the question of if the ignition is making enough energy to avoid spark blowout and making max hp.
In terms of 6AL energy, I don't have direct experience. If Dig has experience and says a 6AL and good coil will perform then I believe him. Although the math and specs from MSD don't make sense.
One thing I am sure of is that the MS2 or any ECM needs the right setup from the user. If MS says to set up with "x" edge for an HEI then do it. If MS says to set "z" latency for an HEI module then enter it. Without the right setup no ECM will perform properly.
As for the 1/4 mile time ECM stuff............it is using the VSS and wheel speed. If the VSS resolution sucks (think stock GM ECM of that era) or the wheels spin then it is has too much error. Overall, it is useless unless if uses the front wheels that stay on the ground and has 36x wheel resolution.
09-20-2017, 10:48 PM
#372
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Car: 86 Camaro
Engine: 355
Transmission: Powerglide w/brake
Axle/Gears: Currie 9" w/4.56
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
I have a 6AL (yes it is wired direct to the battery!)
Regarding the outputs, dual fan control and non-working boost control. I'm not sure if anything else it's been way too long since I did it. Wasted spark could probably be made to work - I can reuse the boost control outputs I suppose.
Ok I have spec'd out a Holley Dominator system and a Megasquirt 3 Pro Ultimate (closest comparable MS to the Dom)
554-114 $1990.95 Holley Dominator ECU
558-308 $ 59.83 Main Power Harness
558-101 $332.95 TPI Harness
558-200 $117.95 Injector Harness EV1 Connector
558-410 $ 59.83 Ignition Harness Hall Effect crank/cam
558-307 $ 99.76 LSx coil harness
558-405 $170.95 4L60E/80E Harness
554-101 $146.95 Bosch WB02
557-200 $103.95 Boost Control Kit
TOTAL: $3083.12
--------------------------
$2548.00 MS3Pro Ultimate + 24x harness (would require reworking to fit gen1)
$ 499.00 Microsquirt CAN Transmission Control + Harness
$ 53.00 Boost Control Solenoid
Total $3100
What, what? MORE than the Dom! And I'd have to do work on the LS harness to make it work with my gen1, but it's the easiest way to have the sequential wiring for the injectors and individual coil control. Plus it's still $300 for the pigtail harness so that's only $400 less and you have to build every connector. Also the MS route would re-use my O2 while the Holley has its own calibrated O2 sensor included in the configuration above. Apples for Apples I think it is no contest. You could configure a lower cost MS but if I want stand-alone transmission control I also could just go Holley HP, so MS doesn't automatically win the price battle even stripped down.
Regarding the outputs, dual fan control and non-working boost control. I'm not sure if anything else it's been way too long since I did it. Wasted spark could probably be made to work - I can reuse the boost control outputs I suppose.
Ok I have spec'd out a Holley Dominator system and a Megasquirt 3 Pro Ultimate (closest comparable MS to the Dom)
554-114 $1990.95 Holley Dominator ECU
558-308 $ 59.83 Main Power Harness
558-101 $332.95 TPI Harness
558-200 $117.95 Injector Harness EV1 Connector
558-410 $ 59.83 Ignition Harness Hall Effect crank/cam
558-307 $ 99.76 LSx coil harness
558-405 $170.95 4L60E/80E Harness
554-101 $146.95 Bosch WB02
557-200 $103.95 Boost Control Kit
TOTAL: $3083.12
--------------------------
$2548.00 MS3Pro Ultimate + 24x harness (would require reworking to fit gen1)
$ 499.00 Microsquirt CAN Transmission Control + Harness
$ 53.00 Boost Control Solenoid
Total $3100
What, what? MORE than the Dom! And I'd have to do work on the LS harness to make it work with my gen1, but it's the easiest way to have the sequential wiring for the injectors and individual coil control. Plus it's still $300 for the pigtail harness so that's only $400 less and you have to build every connector. Also the MS route would re-use my O2 while the Holley has its own calibrated O2 sensor included in the configuration above. Apples for Apples I think it is no contest. You could configure a lower cost MS but if I want stand-alone transmission control I also could just go Holley HP, so MS doesn't automatically win the price battle even stripped down.
09-21-2017, 04:33 AM
#373
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Originally Posted by junkcltr
All of the guys posting know the feel between the trans slipping and the engine just not feeling right. Each has plenty of experience.
- Rob
09-21-2017, 05:54 AM
#374
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
when he says it wont really spin the tires from a roll in 1st or 2nd gear makes me wonder, especially at 18# boost.
really, it would be good to put it on the dyno and play with timing. pull it down to a reasonable 10psi or so, and bump timing up in small steps until the car stops making gains. then back it back down one step. then you will know where it wants to be timing-wise and it would give you something concrete to work off of. it will be interesting to see how your latest ms changes play out.
didnt it make somewhere in the 500's a couple years ago on the dyno?
really, it would be good to put it on the dyno and play with timing. pull it down to a reasonable 10psi or so, and bump timing up in small steps until the car stops making gains. then back it back down one step. then you will know where it wants to be timing-wise and it would give you something concrete to work off of. it will be interesting to see how your latest ms changes play out.
didnt it make somewhere in the 500's a couple years ago on the dyno?
09-21-2017, 08:13 AM
#375
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Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: Turbocharged 5.7 Pro-Fl-XT
Transmission: 700R4 for moment
Axle/Gears: 3.25 9 inch
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Street - I've been in a ton of (and driven several) 800+ hp cars. When you're going 80+ mph and start breaking traction 28 X 12.50's you know you're in a fast car. Spin, grab, spin, grab, clench sphincter as you pass 100 mph as the wind pushes down the cheap cowl hood onto the intake and you're still breaking traction. Been there, done that. When you're going 40 mph and it doesn't even haze the tires at 18 psi you can damn sure tell the difference. I know this car well and I have enough time slips to know what fast does not feel like in it. I have been fooled a couple of times into thinking it was finally going to make the numbers and it did not.. you could say my butt dyno is very updated with the latest information these days.
Diggler - It did make 530 on pump gas on the 113 heads/stock intake and 603/623 on 114 fuel. I thought that dyno was a little bit proud but the numbers it was giving other people were fairly consistent with other area dynos. Also when it put down the 603 and I drove it home afterwards, the butt dyno indicated it felt like a fast car.
Good idea about dropping the boost back down to 10. I should have done that on the test drive but I figured with such conservative timing it would be fine.. plus I wanted to compare it in the same config as it was with the original timing numbers. I'm going to go back to 10 today and tune it for some go.
Diggler - It did make 530 on pump gas on the 113 heads/stock intake and 603/623 on 114 fuel. I thought that dyno was a little bit proud but the numbers it was giving other people were fairly consistent with other area dynos. Also when it put down the 603 and I drove it home afterwards, the butt dyno indicated it felt like a fast car.
Good idea about dropping the boost back down to 10. I should have done that on the test drive but I figured with such conservative timing it would be fine.. plus I wanted to compare it in the same config as it was with the original timing numbers. I'm going to go back to 10 today and tune it for some go.
09-21-2017, 09:16 AM
#376
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Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Im running stock HEI. Had multipule issues with MSD - went stock and never looked back.
that 20* difference might be from changing rising edge to falling edge. It makes a huge difference in total timing. I changed it at one point messing around with the timing to see if i could get a more stable reading and i found it was retarded 20*. Changed the setting again and it went back to where it should have been
I also just noticed my spark latency is set to 0. Good stuff in this thread.
At some point the recommended 'rising edge' capture event was changed to falling edge. I zero'd out every timing modifier table and put a flat 20 degrees into the main timing table. One setting I left untouched was 'spark hardware latency' which is set to max of 170 usec.
First start showed timing out by 20 degrees (advanced) at idle. I reset the distributor to the correct position with an average of 20 degrees on the timing tab.
First start showed timing out by 20 degrees (advanced) at idle. I reset the distributor to the correct position with an average of 20 degrees on the timing tab.
I also just noticed my spark latency is set to 0. Good stuff in this thread.
Last edited by 86CamaroDan; 09-21-2017 at 09:26 AM.
09-21-2017, 10:39 AM
#379
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
I was curious how MS deals with the fixed time delay.
Yes, the hardware spark latency is intended to remove the 1/RPM timing change.
Here is how one user set the hardware spark latency ( I think this is the right way to do it).
"To check if this is correct, you change the Fix Advance setting to Fixed timing, and verify that timing for Fixed Advance is at 10 degrees. Then hook up a timing light and make sure your base timing at idle reads exactly 10 degrees. Once thats verified, rev the car with your hand while still checking the timing light. As the rpm's increase, the timing should stay at that same 10 tdc value. If you start to see it retard with the rpms, then increase the hardware spark latency (and burn), and recheck the timing again under the same conditions until your timing stays at 10 degrees. Don't forget to change Fixed timing back to Use Table when you're done.
On my car the timing would retard 2+ degrees as the rpm's went up with 30 uSec that was set in the base map file."
Verify your wiring and "edge" is set correctly in MS for your HEI module. If you are using the HEI 5v output as the trigger then it will be off by a lot of degrees if on the wrong edge.
Yes, the hardware spark latency is intended to remove the 1/RPM timing change.
Here is how one user set the hardware spark latency ( I think this is the right way to do it).
"To check if this is correct, you change the Fix Advance setting to Fixed timing, and verify that timing for Fixed Advance is at 10 degrees. Then hook up a timing light and make sure your base timing at idle reads exactly 10 degrees. Once thats verified, rev the car with your hand while still checking the timing light. As the rpm's increase, the timing should stay at that same 10 tdc value. If you start to see it retard with the rpms, then increase the hardware spark latency (and burn), and recheck the timing again under the same conditions until your timing stays at 10 degrees. Don't forget to change Fixed timing back to Use Table when you're done.
On my car the timing would retard 2+ degrees as the rpm's went up with 30 uSec that was set in the base map file."
Verify your wiring and "edge" is set correctly in MS for your HEI module. If you are using the HEI 5v output as the trigger then it will be off by a lot of degrees if on the wrong edge.
09-21-2017, 10:43 AM
#380
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Im running stock HEI. Had multipule issues with MSD - went stock and never looked back.
that 20* difference might be from changing rising edge to falling edge. It makes a huge difference in total timing. I changed it at one point messing around with the timing to see if i could get a more stable reading and i found it was retarded 20*. Changed the setting again and it went back to where it should have been
I also just noticed my spark latency is set to 0. Good stuff in this thread.
that 20* difference might be from changing rising edge to falling edge. It makes a huge difference in total timing. I changed it at one point messing around with the timing to see if i could get a more stable reading and i found it was retarded 20*. Changed the setting again and it went back to where it should have been
I also just noticed my spark latency is set to 0. Good stuff in this thread.
A stock HEI can mean a lot of things. HEI Big coil in cap has a junk coil and junk module and has a hard time sparking no boost. HEI small cap and coil is decent and will spark low boost. HEI vortec/LT1 coil and module will spark medium boost and keep up with a lot of aftermarket boxes/coils and outperform aftermarket HEI in-dizzy modules.
So, which HEI are you running?
09-21-2017, 10:44 AM
#381
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
i was curious how the stock ignition would hold up in the higher boost levels. i just did a quick search and found where one guy ran an hei up to 21psi on e85 with .025" gaps. thats pretty dang good honestly.
09-21-2017, 11:12 AM
#382
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Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
A stock HEI can mean a lot of things. HEI Big coil in cap has a junk coil and junk module and has a hard time sparking no boost. HEI small cap and coil is decent and will spark low boost. HEI vortec/LT1 coil and module will spark medium boost and keep up with a lot of aftermarket boxes/coils and outperform aftermarket HEI in-dizzy modules.
So, which HEI are you running?
So, which HEI are you running?
Its HEI8 - stock tuned port setup. I keep forgetting they had big cap distributor/HEI7 for tuned port engines.
09-21-2017, 11:43 AM
#383
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Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: Turbocharged 5.7 Pro-Fl-XT
Transmission: 700R4 for moment
Axle/Gears: 3.25 9 inch
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Agitated as heck now. I was so optimistic last night from my hop around the neighborhood that I expected good things today. It is safe to say after a 30 minute tuning and beating on it session that the good old classic Iroc behavior remains. Same breaking up sound in high rpm/boost.
It's also been having a very random misfire (multiple cylinders) for the past few days at high rpm cruise. It emulates a lean condition but the AFR reads 14.2-14.6. Could it be poor air distribution with the new intake resulting in some lean cylinders? IDK
Anyway it feels flat. I added more timing, tweaked fueling to get it closer to 11:0 in the area where it was way too rich and beat on it real good through the gears. I only managed to get it to haze 1st gear from a 10 mph roll. That was with 14 psi (it went higher than I was planning for this session).
As long as the ignition is acting up it is pointless to expect the power I want. I still don't think that is the only thing at play here though. So now IDK, trigger will be here soon. I guess first that and then look into yet another coil, better wires, or start collecting my LS parts.
It's also been having a very random misfire (multiple cylinders) for the past few days at high rpm cruise. It emulates a lean condition but the AFR reads 14.2-14.6. Could it be poor air distribution with the new intake resulting in some lean cylinders? IDK
Anyway it feels flat. I added more timing, tweaked fueling to get it closer to 11:0 in the area where it was way too rich and beat on it real good through the gears. I only managed to get it to haze 1st gear from a 10 mph roll. That was with 14 psi (it went higher than I was planning for this session).
As long as the ignition is acting up it is pointless to expect the power I want. I still don't think that is the only thing at play here though. So now IDK, trigger will be here soon. I guess first that and then look into yet another coil, better wires, or start collecting my LS parts.
09-21-2017, 11:54 AM
#384
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Start simple.
1) Verify you have the HEI output wired to the MS correctly
2) Verify you have the MS trigger edge set correctly
3) Set Hardware Spark latency correctly
1) Verify you have the HEI output wired to the MS correctly
2) Verify you have the MS trigger edge set correctly
3) Set Hardware Spark latency correctly
09-21-2017, 11:56 AM
#385
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
The better HEI will do it. Also helps to run a switched coil power wire from the back of the alternator to the coil for max voltage.
09-21-2017, 11:59 AM
#386
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
It's also been having a very random misfire (multiple cylinders) for the past few days at high rpm cruise. It emulates a lean condition but the AFR reads 14.2-14.6. Could it be poor air distribution with the new intake resulting in some lean cylinders? IDK
Anyway it feels flat. I added more timing, tweaked fueling to get it closer to 11:0 in the area where it was way too rich and beat on it real good through the gears. I only managed to get it to haze 1st gear from a 10 mph roll. That was with 14 psi (it went higher than I was planning for this session).
Setup/Verify the MS ignition wiring and parameters and then mess with timing. Just guessing right now will give random results.
EDIT: How old is the coil/magnetic pickup in the dizzy. The small cap pickup is known to go faulty. Is this the source of your problems?
09-21-2017, 01:52 PM
#387
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
A stock HEI can mean a lot of things. HEI Big coil in cap has a junk coil and junk module and has a hard time sparking no boost. HEI small cap and coil is decent and will spark low boost. HEI vortec/LT1 coil and module will spark medium boost and keep up with a lot of aftermarket boxes/coils and outperform aftermarket HEI in-dizzy modules.
So, which HEI are you running?
So, which HEI are you running?
-- Joe
09-21-2017, 01:53 PM
#388
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Agitated as heck now. I was so optimistic last night from my hop around the neighborhood that I expected good things today. It is safe to say after a 30 minute tuning and beating on it session that the good old classic Iroc behavior remains. Same breaking up sound in high rpm/boost.
It's also been having a very random misfire (multiple cylinders) for the past few days at high rpm cruise. It emulates a lean condition but the AFR reads 14.2-14.6. Could it be poor air distribution with the new intake resulting in some lean cylinders? IDK
Anyway it feels flat. I added more timing, tweaked fueling to get it closer to 11:0 in the area where it was way too rich and beat on it real good through the gears. I only managed to get it to haze 1st gear from a 10 mph roll. That was with 14 psi (it went higher than I was planning for this session).
As long as the ignition is acting up it is pointless to expect the power I want. I still don't think that is the only thing at play here though. So now IDK, trigger will be here soon. I guess first that and then look into yet another coil, better wires, or start collecting my LS parts.
It's also been having a very random misfire (multiple cylinders) for the past few days at high rpm cruise. It emulates a lean condition but the AFR reads 14.2-14.6. Could it be poor air distribution with the new intake resulting in some lean cylinders? IDK
Anyway it feels flat. I added more timing, tweaked fueling to get it closer to 11:0 in the area where it was way too rich and beat on it real good through the gears. I only managed to get it to haze 1st gear from a 10 mph roll. That was with 14 psi (it went higher than I was planning for this session).
As long as the ignition is acting up it is pointless to expect the power I want. I still don't think that is the only thing at play here though. So now IDK, trigger will be here soon. I guess first that and then look into yet another coil, better wires, or start collecting my LS parts.
-- Joe
09-21-2017, 02:28 PM
#389
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Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: Turbocharged 5.7 Pro-Fl-XT
Transmission: 700R4 for moment
Axle/Gears: 3.25 9 inch
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
PM me an email address Joe. Just keep in mind this tune isn't going to be pretty on the timing table right now.
Pick up is a few years old now. Crank trigger should eliminate the entire HEI distributor as the cause except for cross-arcing in the cap. I just ordered a brand new Blaster GM coil which will be here tomorrow. I think I will replace the cap and rotor too.
What do you guys think about plug wires? I'm just running some mid level MSD wires I think 8 or 8.2 mm. I hate to invest almost $200 into higher end wires when I'm not sure if I will keep this combo, unless it is a must that I have overlooked.
Pick up is a few years old now. Crank trigger should eliminate the entire HEI distributor as the cause except for cross-arcing in the cap. I just ordered a brand new Blaster GM coil which will be here tomorrow. I think I will replace the cap and rotor too.
What do you guys think about plug wires? I'm just running some mid level MSD wires I think 8 or 8.2 mm. I hate to invest almost $200 into higher end wires when I'm not sure if I will keep this combo, unless it is a must that I have overlooked.
09-21-2017, 02:53 PM
#390
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Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
https://www.summitracing.com/search/...8%2B4294951399
09-21-2017, 04:50 PM
#391
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
crank wheel will be a good upgrade for sure. that should put ignition timing dead nuts. (once the ms is setup)
wires would be a good thing to do also. i wouldnt spend big bucks on them, maaaybe splurge on some high heat ones as mentioned.
i believe you already mentioned this yourself, but rotor phasing could be a thing as well... my car had a crank trigger and a msd "crab" distributor with no internal advance parts and a very wide rotor tip (~3/4"). with that setup, it is necessary to phase the cap with the rotor. i had a modified cap with a hole cut in it so i could see the rotor inside. basically you center the rotor to #1 terminal through the engine's timing range. if your distributor has a narrow rotor tip, phasing would be even more important..
the benefit of the large crab style billet distributor is with a super hot coil/box, it is less likely to misfire to the wrong cap post since they are so much further apart.
if timing is where it should be, a/f is correct, and at ~20psi its still a turd.... i guess start saving for ls stuff. lol
wires would be a good thing to do also. i wouldnt spend big bucks on them, maaaybe splurge on some high heat ones as mentioned.
i believe you already mentioned this yourself, but rotor phasing could be a thing as well... my car had a crank trigger and a msd "crab" distributor with no internal advance parts and a very wide rotor tip (~3/4"). with that setup, it is necessary to phase the cap with the rotor. i had a modified cap with a hole cut in it so i could see the rotor inside. basically you center the rotor to #1 terminal through the engine's timing range. if your distributor has a narrow rotor tip, phasing would be even more important..
the benefit of the large crab style billet distributor is with a super hot coil/box, it is less likely to misfire to the wrong cap post since they are so much further apart.
if timing is where it should be, a/f is correct, and at ~20psi its still a turd.... i guess start saving for ls stuff. lol
09-21-2017, 05:08 PM
#392
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Ding ding ding, and we have a winner!!!! Exactly Dig, exactly. The engine was put on the dyno and threw down 500 plus to the wheels with TPI and a 2 1/2" intake. We heard time and time again, from the same members no less, that it was the infamous timing problem from the MS for quite awhile before he got it running right, yet it was a fueling issue. Now, because he is not satisfied with upgrades its back to a timing issue. Tis a good scapegoat. Looking forward to see what Joe finds though, and to see if he fixes it.....
As for your response Steve, I have no freaking idea where you're going with all of this 800 horsepower nonsense and comparing it with what you have. If you were in fast cars, that's great, but so was I. Has nothing to do with your build though, you made power with the old setup in the past, and I even remember a "mission accomplished". Doesn't sound like a timing issue to me with that statement. You then upped the ante, better heads, intake, throttle body, yada yada yada, car is not running right, you can't find the culprit, so now it's right back to the infamous timing issue lol...
Keep spending though, by all means, dig deep...
As for your response Steve, I have no freaking idea where you're going with all of this 800 horsepower nonsense and comparing it with what you have. If you were in fast cars, that's great, but so was I. Has nothing to do with your build though, you made power with the old setup in the past, and I even remember a "mission accomplished". Doesn't sound like a timing issue to me with that statement. You then upped the ante, better heads, intake, throttle body, yada yada yada, car is not running right, you can't find the culprit, so now it's right back to the infamous timing issue lol...
Keep spending though, by all means, dig deep...
09-21-2017, 05:35 PM
#393
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
ehh... well kinda yea i guess. not real sure where you were going with all that.
he made 603 with the tpi intake. with the new intake and heads i would figure at least a 50hp gain if he left boost the same. it may be nearly 700 now just with those new parts.
for reference, the ysi lt1 car i worked on has a 9.0:1 388 with 212cc cnc'd heads and a 250's duration solid roller. it is making around 12-13psi in its current configuration, and i believe it made around 720whp through a th400/12 bolt. very conservative tune, and they were cutting pulls short at around 6500 rpms or so.
car is light, around 3200 or so i would guess, and with an overly tight converter it went a best of 6.10@117 with a 1.45 60'.
steve when you mat it on the hwy, where doe the rpms go to? (where does converter flash to)
he made 603 with the tpi intake. with the new intake and heads i would figure at least a 50hp gain if he left boost the same. it may be nearly 700 now just with those new parts.
for reference, the ysi lt1 car i worked on has a 9.0:1 388 with 212cc cnc'd heads and a 250's duration solid roller. it is making around 12-13psi in its current configuration, and i believe it made around 720whp through a th400/12 bolt. very conservative tune, and they were cutting pulls short at around 6500 rpms or so.
car is light, around 3200 or so i would guess, and with an overly tight converter it went a best of 6.10@117 with a 1.45 60'.
steve when you mat it on the hwy, where doe the rpms go to? (where does converter flash to)
09-21-2017, 06:17 PM
#394
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
crank wheel will be a good upgrade for sure. that should put ignition timing dead nuts. (once the ms is setup)
wires would be a good thing to do also. i wouldnt spend big bucks on them, maaaybe splurge on some high heat ones as mentioned.
i believe you already mentioned this yourself, but rotor phasing could be a thing as well... my car had a crank trigger and a msd "crab" distributor with no internal advance parts and a very wide rotor tip (~3/4"). with that setup, it is necessary to phase the cap with the rotor. i had a modified cap with a hole cut in it so i could see the rotor inside. basically you center the rotor to #1 terminal through the engine's timing range. if your distributor has a narrow rotor tip, phasing would be even more important..
the benefit of the large crab style billet distributor is with a super hot coil/box, it is less likely to misfire to the wrong cap post since they are so much further apart.
if timing is where it should be, a/f is correct, and at ~20psi its still a turd.... i guess start saving for ls stuff. lol
wires would be a good thing to do also. i wouldnt spend big bucks on them, maaaybe splurge on some high heat ones as mentioned.
i believe you already mentioned this yourself, but rotor phasing could be a thing as well... my car had a crank trigger and a msd "crab" distributor with no internal advance parts and a very wide rotor tip (~3/4"). with that setup, it is necessary to phase the cap with the rotor. i had a modified cap with a hole cut in it so i could see the rotor inside. basically you center the rotor to #1 terminal through the engine's timing range. if your distributor has a narrow rotor tip, phasing would be even more important..
the benefit of the large crab style billet distributor is with a super hot coil/box, it is less likely to misfire to the wrong cap post since they are so much further apart.
if timing is where it should be, a/f is correct, and at ~20psi its still a turd.... i guess start saving for ls stuff. lol
-- Joe
09-21-2017, 06:30 PM
#395
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Originally Posted by DIGGLER
ehh... well kinda yea i guess. not real sure where you were going with all that. he made 603 with the tpi intake. with the new intake and heads i would figure at least a 50hp gain if he left boost the same. it may be nearly 700 now just with those new parts.
- Rob
09-21-2017, 08:31 PM
#396
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
http://www.powerperformancenews.com/...onfigurations/
09-21-2017, 08:46 PM
#397
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Yes, he made that much with TPI and a restricted intake tract. You and I both know what that number should equate to in the 1/4 mile at a specific weight, and if it doesn't deliver at the track or on the street, then it is clearly another issue because the numbers do not lie. There was no timing issue. If there was it would have been like hitting a brick wall in the RPM band and would have showed, but it was fine. If he is breaking up now, it's possible his plugs are fouled from the changes and/or the lack of VE tuning in the higher RPM areas. Now everything is opened up in his setup, and yes, he should be making even more power, but not at the same RPM. Everything was raised substantially in the RPM band, and he is just not tuned for it yet. I still feel that transmission is a big factor in the problem, but if he admits to the SA table being all over the place to Joe, then we must assume the VE table is as well. Simply put, he might not be correctly tuned for the new upgrades, despite telling himself he is. You guys are really misreading what I am saying too, I am trying to help the guy, I don't want to see him spend money that he doesn't really need to.
- Rob
- Rob
09-21-2017, 10:40 PM
#398
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Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: Turbocharged 5.7 Pro-Fl-XT
Transmission: 700R4 for moment
Axle/Gears: 3.25 9 inch
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Diggler - I'm not sure of the rpm without looking at my datalogs.. since my laptop had to be reformatted and I can't find my key, I'm locked out of seeing my datalogs at the moment (or at least more than the first little bit of them). It doesn't really flash though as its a tight converter around 2400. The boost comes in and the car jumps forward, so you see the rpm go up but it isn't a substantial increase.
By the way, I have the hyper tach (30 years of electronic degradation) so you can't quite go by the dash tach in my videos. It reads too high. I am changing that situation soon, but for now I rely on the laptop for the accurate info.
It turns out the POV video I shot yesterday actually picked up not only me whining about the problems but also the ignition breakup at cruise and at WOT. It's much harder to hear it at WOT but it is there when the cutout is open. Also near the end of the video I did a takeoff through three gears. I let out for the 1-2 shift by habit and then I tried to let it auto shift while WOT from 2-3 and it flared up to valve float. When I let out and got back in you can see the tach drop and stay there and slowly come up as the speed increases.
I'll put in new plugs tomorrow morning along with the new coil when it gets here.
POV video is uploading.. check my channel it should be up by 11pm central.
By the way, I have the hyper tach (30 years of electronic degradation) so you can't quite go by the dash tach in my videos. It reads too high. I am changing that situation soon, but for now I rely on the laptop for the accurate info.
It turns out the POV video I shot yesterday actually picked up not only me whining about the problems but also the ignition breakup at cruise and at WOT. It's much harder to hear it at WOT but it is there when the cutout is open. Also near the end of the video I did a takeoff through three gears. I let out for the 1-2 shift by habit and then I tried to let it auto shift while WOT from 2-3 and it flared up to valve float. When I let out and got back in you can see the tach drop and stay there and slowly come up as the speed increases.
I'll put in new plugs tomorrow morning along with the new coil when it gets here.
POV video is uploading.. check my channel it should be up by 11pm central.
09-21-2017, 11:03 PM
#399
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
you need the rotor to be pointing at the terminal as best as you can get it within the timing range you will be running in.
http://www.powerperformancenews.com/...onfigurations/
http://www.powerperformancenews.com/...onfigurations/
I run 10 degrees of initial, and 24 degrees max. So my rotor is hitting the terminal dead on and 10 degrees btdc, so I only need to fire the coil 14 crankshaft degrees early, which is only 7 distributor degrees.
No need to cut up caps and check phasing, we know what the trigger rotor offset is, it's set from the factory.
However, when he goes to a crank trigger he will need to phase his rotor because he won't be using the dizzy trigger. I suppose if he leaves it clamped down and he knows his initial he can just do the math. On a 36-1 wheel I set tdc to 6 teeth from the missing tooth, and I'd make sure the rotor is smack in the middle there I guess.
- Joe
09-22-2017, 08:58 AM
#400
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
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Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
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Re: Turbo Iroc - Round Four (Edit: Staying Gen1, new PT7675, heads, intake)
Steve,
Are you really running 2.1.0q firmware ? (from 2012) ? I'm hoping that my tunerstudio just lost it's mind when I loaded your MSQ and it's really wrong, but that firmware is ancient and full of bugs. FULL! Especially ignition bugs.
Your ignition capture should be rising edge, not falling edge assuming you are running an actual MS2 3.x board, not a Microsquirt (like I am) and MS2extra. B&G code was different.
No bypass (for cranking) ? I don't wanna comb through pages of posts, but if you happen to have a link to how your wiring is described I'm curious how you have the module, coil, etc wired to the MS.
Spark output on D14 is better than JS10. Again, try to wire it like a GM ECM.
Here is some good documentation:
Injector constant isn't in the config, but you hard set the REQ fuel to 8.4. Not sure if that's a number you calculated outside or ? It doesn't sound off, mine is 9.0, just curious.
Your fuel table is .. Strange. You should have greater than 100% VE anywhere you are in boost, yet that doesn't appear to happen until just over 3,000 RPM. I'm not sure if that is because you don't make boost under 3k, but it seems odd to me. My blower makes boost almost off idle if I mash it.
I will look at this more when I have time later but, my recommendations to you would be to upgrade your firmware to the most recent. Change your ignition wiring around a little bit, and try it again.
-- Joe
Are you really running 2.1.0q firmware ? (from 2012) ? I'm hoping that my tunerstudio just lost it's mind when I loaded your MSQ and it's really wrong, but that firmware is ancient and full of bugs. FULL! Especially ignition bugs.
Your ignition capture should be rising edge, not falling edge assuming you are running an actual MS2 3.x board, not a Microsquirt (like I am) and MS2extra. B&G code was different.
No bypass (for cranking) ? I don't wanna comb through pages of posts, but if you happen to have a link to how your wiring is described I'm curious how you have the module, coil, etc wired to the MS.
Spark output on D14 is better than JS10. Again, try to wire it like a GM ECM.
Here is some good documentation:
Code:
Using the MegaSquirt-II PCBv3.0 or V3.57 – New MS2/Extra setup This version requires MS2/Extra, and has the ECU controlling the bypass pin based on engine RPM. If you’re assembling your MegaSquirt-II from a kit (Part# MS230-K): For the most part, stick with the standard assembly documentation in the MS2/Extra manual. I’ll just be covering any departures from that doc here. You will want all of the IAC jumpers. Set it up for VR input by jumpering TachSelect to VRIN and TSEL to VROUT. For the main spark output, run a 1K resistor from the 5 volt source in the proto area or the right side of R24 to the top (negative) lead of D14, and run a jumper wire from the negative lead of D14 to IGN. For the bypass output, run a 1K resistor from the 5 volt source in the proto area or the right side of R28 to the top (negative) lead of D16, and run a jumper wire from the negative lead of D16 to SPR4 to bring this output out on DB37 pin 6. That’s it– you’ve got your Megasquirt-II Engine Management System fully prepared to work with a HEI ignition and stepper IAC. If you’re using a DIYAutoTune.com MS2357-C MegaSquirt-II Assembled ECU: Set it for VR input by putting the JP1 jumper (in the lower right hand corner of the main board) in the 1-2 position, and the J1 jumper (in the middle of the main board) in the 3-4 position. Remove the wire from JS10 to the center hole of Q16. Run a jumper wire from PAD1 to the center hole of the Q16 slot, and remove Q16 if fitted. Run a jumper wire from PAD3 to SPR4. External Ignition Wiring The R pin is the HEI module’s tach output. Connect it to pin 24 on the Megasquirt, or the Tach pin on the relay board. Note that the DIY Autotune wiring harness has a shielded wire – connect only the inner wire to this pin! Connect the E pin to pin 36 (relay board terminal S5) to send the timing signal to the HEI module. Connect the B pin to pin 6. If using a relay board, this comes out on the small header next to the fast idle relay. If you are using our wiring harness, connect the IAC using the four IAC wires. If you are using a relay board, the IAC wires will come out on terminals S1 through S4. TunerStudio Ignition Configuration: Spark mode = Basic trigger Trigger angle / offset = 10 (this will vary, depending on the distributor orientation, see notes at the end of the article) Ignition Input Capture to ‘Rising Edge’ GM HEI / DIS options to ‘GM Bypass on D16’ Spark A output pin to ‘D14’ Dwell type to ‘Standard dwell’ Spark Output to ‘Going Low’
Your fuel table is .. Strange. You should have greater than 100% VE anywhere you are in boost, yet that doesn't appear to happen until just over 3,000 RPM. I'm not sure if that is because you don't make boost under 3k, but it seems odd to me. My blower makes boost almost off idle if I mash it.
I will look at this more when I have time later but, my recommendations to you would be to upgrade your firmware to the most recent. Change your ignition wiring around a little bit, and try it again.
-- Joe