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I'm starting to think this car is a democrat. It takes all my money and gives me nothing in return.
So I put the new water pump in, but the new alt bracket causes the alt to crash into the valve cover. I can't even adjust it far enough out cuz the adjuster isn't long enough. wtf.
-- Joe
Lol. Good comparison. If your a republican in MA your an endangered species. Sucks the small stuff turns into a big headache.
Have you checked for exhaust leaks? Anything before the WB02 and within like 6-12" after will skew the readings. Pull the plugs and take a look. I've had horrid luck with header gaskets seems like no one makes a good gasket anymore. I asked around and was told the mr gasket ultra seals for the LS is the best. I wanted to be sure I was leak free with the cheap Chinese headers. Low and behold I've seen carbon leak marks mostly on the pass side tho which my WB02 is on the driver side. But I'm a big fan of clear silicone as header gaskets bc it completely gaurentee's a leak free seal as long as the flange isn't crazy warped. Only problem is removal and cleaning is very time consuming.
I have the filter in roughly the same location and not seeing anywhere near what you are. Actually today I will see 120-150 before the IC 150 on medium throttle bursts causing lots of hest soak but for the most part I see 120*F. No matter Wat I do I always get about 90* out of the IC and that's before the meth is activated. Normal heat of the silicone couplers are in the 130-150*F range, can't get a good reading off the polished aluminum tubing. But I did fab up a quick heat shield. Maybe you need to do that. Otherwise it's wrapping the header or coating it and possibly relocating the filter but it def should not be that hot.
Have you checked for exhaust leaks? Anything before the WB02 and within like 6-12" after will skew the readings. Pull the plugs and take a look. I've had horrid luck with header gaskets seems like no one makes a good gasket anymore. I asked around and was told the mr gasket ultra seals for the LS is the best. I wanted to be sure I was leak free with the cheap Chinese headers. Low and behold I've seen carbon leak marks mostly on the pass side tho which my WB02 is on the driver side. But I'm a big fan of clear silicone as header gaskets bc it completely gaurentee's a leak free seal as long as the flange isn't crazy warped. Only problem is removal and cleaning is very time consuming.
No leaks, but I don't quite trust the wideband. Maybe it's just not reliable, I dunno. Idle looks kinda like this:
Not it's reporting anywhere from 14:1-16:1 AFR at idle. But it does have pops in the exhaust, and when I checked the plugs they were black and sooty.
Originally Posted by customblackbird
I have the filter in roughly the same location and not seeing anywhere near what you are. Actually today I will see 120-150 before the IC 150 on medium throttle bursts causing lots of hest soak but for the most part I see 120*F. No matter Wat I do I always get about 90* out of the IC and that's before the meth is activated. Normal heat of the silicone couplers are in the 130-150*F range, can't get a good reading off the polished aluminum tubing. But I did fab up a quick heat shield. Maybe you need to do that. Otherwise it's wrapping the header or coating it and possibly relocating the filter but it def should not be that hot.
I probed around the area, and I was getting in the 230 degree range. I'm getting heat direct off the #6 and #8 primary right into the filter. I need to figure out some sort of shield.
All back together and running, it wouldn't idle. I had to open the throttle blades more to get it to idle and the IAC steps be reasonable.
So the only two problems I have now is I get some rich pops out the exhaust at idle yet my wideband reads quite lean.
...
Originally Posted by anesthes
No leaks, but I don't quite trust the wideband. Maybe it's just not reliable, I dunno.
... and when I checked the plugs they were black and sooty.
Did the plugs smell like raw fuel? In this case I would tend to agree with your wideband, and that the backfiring is occurring under a lean condition caused by a lack of fuel, or improper timing, with the latter also explaining the increased air temps at idle. This would explain why you suddenly had to alter the idle screw and IAC steps to compensate. What is your base/initial and idle timing? How is your fuel pressure at idle? When was the last time you ohm'ed the injectors? How low is the fuel in your fuel tank?
...
Did the plugs smell like raw fuel? In this case I would tend to agree with your wideband, and that the backfiring is occurring under a lean condition caused by a lack of fuel, or improper timing, with the latter also explaining the increased air temps at idle. This would explain why you suddenly had to alter the idle screw and IAC steps to compensate. What is your base/initial and idle timing? How is your fuel pressure at idle? When was the last time you ohm'ed the injectors? How low is the fuel in your fuel tank?
No the plugs were dry and covered in black soot.
I'm running 28 degrees (total) at idle.
Fuel pressure is around 40lbs at idle.
I ohmed the injectors a few weeks ago. They are brand new Siemens 60lbs.
1/2 tank of 91 octane.
What is interesting, is the motor was loading up and almost skipping until I backed the fuel off in the VE table.
I won't have time today to tinker with it, but maybe tomorrow.
It's possible I may have "missed the tune" when tinkering with it. I don't know anyone with a similar combo to compare it to. I'd personally like to idle around 22-24 degrees, and around 14:1 AFR but maybe the cam doesn't wanna idle that lean..
I just find it very strange that last week the car would start and idle without issue. All I did was change the water pump, and tighten the blower pulley and to keep it running I had to hold the throttle open quite far. Say I held it at like 2500 rpm, at the same throttle position RPM's would drop as it loaded up with fuel.
The other thing that I find rather odd is, my idle target table should have put it to 1400 RPM on initial start (due to coolant temp). Yet IAC commanded steps never got over 80.
I'm starting to wonder if I didn't screw the tune when I switched it back to MAP from MAF.
wouldnt you want alot more timing than that (22-24) at idle? my understanding was you can bump the timing on up to 40ish at idle.... or maybe im thinking of something else. i know when i activated my nitrous and 8 degrees were pulled the idle dropped a bit, and i think that was going from 32 to 24 degrees.
No leaks, but I don't quite trust the wideband. Maybe it's just not reliable, I dunno. Idle looks kinda like this:
Not it's reporting anywhere from 14:1-16:1 AFR at idle. But it does have pops in the exhaust, and when I checked the plugs they were black and sooty.
I probed around the area, and I was getting in the 230 degree range. I'm getting heat direct off the #6 and #8 primary right into the filter. I need to figure out some sort of shield.
-- Joe
Did you free open air calibrate the sensor? I thought I remember your using a innovate WB02?
Looking at your VE table and I assume your idling around the 4 highlighted boxes I see you have a large difference between cells. Try plugging in the same value and see if the AFR evens out. im only running a 3pt spread from 400-800rpms for idle.
Yea def throw some kind of heat shield between the headers and filter/tube.
40* is wayyy high for idle. I personally think his idle timing isn't that bad. Normal timing should be between 6-20 initial and the. Vacuum adds some usually around 8. I wouldn't go over 20ish initial without a start retard knocking out timing for hot start purposes.
Race cars will lock out the timing at idle to like 36 but they don't do street driving and have start retard to help with starting.
Your distributor is set for what init? And how much is it adding for your total timing? Perhaps you have a weak coil/plug wire or plug? I would back down on the timing alittle and see if that helps.
I would have said your VE values at idle seem high to me but I just checked mine and I'm in the 48-51 range at idle and I run Bosch 60lb but they are really 72lb at LS fuel pressures. I see about 40-42lbs at idle pulling 19.5" vacuum.
Did you free open air calibrate the sensor? I thought I remember your using a innovate WB02?
Looking at your VE table and I assume your idling around the 4 highlighted boxes I see you have a large difference between cells. Try plugging in the same value and see if the AFR evens out. im only running a 3pt spread from 400-800rpms for idle.
Yea def throw some kind of heat shield between the headers and filter/tube.
Where it was idling is not whre I intended it to idle. I was trying for the 800-900 columns, but it was interpolating to the 1400 column. I may give up the columns above 6000 and make some more resolution between 1000-1400, and then smooth that area out. The cam won't rev beyond 6,000 RPM anyway.
But yeah, there is a huge VE jump from 900-1400 but that was somewhat intentional to make tip in response better. I suppose I should be fixing that with AE.
I did a free air calibration about 2 years ago. Maybe it's time to do it again. The suck is that it takes about an hour to remove the o2 sensor on these headers. It's in the worst possible spot. I should drill a hole and mount another o2 bung at the 3 o'clock position to make it easier. I've literally got about 1/4" between the top of the o2 sensor an the drivers floor pan, and I can only get 1/32 turn at a time with a special wrench I made. And it's tight the whole way out because the cable is awkwardly bent due to it being against the floor.
Originally Posted by customblackbird
Your distributor is set for what init? And how much is it adding for your total timing? Perhaps you have a weak coil/plug wire or plug? I would back down on the timing alittle and see if that helps.
My initial is 10 degrees, and I'm adding 18 degrees so a total of 28 at idle. I surely can back it down and re-dial in the VE. It doesn't seem right to me, I feel like a 9.3:1 motor should idle fine at 20 degrees, especially with the displacement I have and the small cam (276 degrees). I think I just overshot the tune.
Diggler: I've always tried to go for low-mid 20s at idle, then ramp up as RPM increase. I'm not a big fan of retarding under boost, so I try to get my max advance in by like 2500 RPM. Then use very high advance in decel areas like a vac advance dizzy.
All back together and running, it wouldn't idle. I had to open the throttle blades more tobget it to idle and the IAC steps be reasonable.
So the only two problems I have now is I get some rich pops out the exhaust at idle yet my wideband reads quite lean.
More importantly my intake temps are horrific. Im seeing between 150-155 degrees at idle.
I checked around the filter with an is gun and the immediate area is like 235 degrees.
Air coming out of the Bob is very hot.
Soo. Filter location sucks.
-- Joe
Where is your meth nozzle in relation to the intercooler? How many gph? 150 iat is about normal. No air moving across intercooler and hoods shut. I get 130-160 at operating temp on a hot 90°day cruising/ idling. Very dependant on outside air temp.
Just saw this. Do you run a cowl hood?On my old procharger setup with miniram I put the filter right on top of the intake. In a cowl hood setup over a certain mph the outside air reverses and get sucked back in from the cowl.
Where is your meth nozzle in relation to the intercooler? How many gph? 150 iat is about normal. No air moving across intercooler and hoods shut. I get 130-160 at operating temp on a hot 90°day cruising/ idling. Very dependant on outside air temp.
No meth, no intercooler yet. I have the hood off (is a 3" cowl) and the car is on the lift. These high iat temps were just idling in the shop. Was about 85 degrees out. I had the 24" over head fan going and the 20" by the door. Shop has ac but I can't run the car with the doors closed of course.
I intend on plumbing my air to water intercooler, but I really wanna get the idle air temps down first. 150 degrees is insane for a car with no hood on it.
My other issue is the bov isn't open at idle, which I think is skewing ve. Im gonna replace that next week.
My initial is 10 degrees, and I'm adding 18 degrees so a total of 28 at idle. I surely can back it down and re-dial in the VE. It doesn't seem right to me, I feel like a 9.3:1 motor should idle fine at 20 degrees, especially with the displacement I have and the small cam (276 degrees). I think I just overshot the tune.
-- Joe
dont count on it my motor wants 35* at idle with a 274/284 adv 230/236 @ .050 cam
the lower the compression the more timing its going to want depending on how tight the converter is
if u dont mind lossing the heater box u can run the filter into the blower motor hole and suck air from the cowl area
My other issue is the bov isn't open at idle, which I think is skewing ve. Im gonna replace that next week.
-- Joe
remove the bov for tunning the idle , if its not open at idle it will generate heat in the charge tubing , pulling the valve off for now will simulate if u had a proper working valve
Gotcha. Innovate recommends free air calibration at least every 6months to 1 year for a street car. Race car is much much more frequent. I would say our cars are half way between street and race so every 6months for sure... Mainly bc we run richer 11.5:1 vs NA setups. While I don't think yours is that far off it could be skewing the readings slightly. But the plugs tell the whole story.
Drop the timing, lean the guy out alittle and rig the BOV to stay open. Of course verifying no leaks and free air testing the WB02. I ran my innovate LC1 for like 3 years and free air tested it every time when I took the car out of storage and it never failed me.
No the plugs were dry and covered in black soot...
Did you thoroughly clean them before another attempt, if not this would cause all of that excess fuel backfiring in the exhaust...
Originally Posted by anesthes
I'm running 28 degrees (total) at idle.
Wow that's a lot, I am at 22* with the same compression. less cubes and more cam...
Originally Posted by anesthes
It's possible I may have "missed the tune" when tinkering with it. I don't know anyone with a similar combo to compare it to. I'd personally like to idle around 22-24 degrees, and around 14:1 AFR but maybe the cam doesn't wanna idle that lean...
I just find it very strange that last week the car would start and idle without issue. All I did was change the water pump, and tighten the blower pulley and to keep it running I had to hold the throttle open quite far. Say I held it at like 2500 rpm, at the same throttle position RPM's would drop as it loaded up with fuel.
The other thing that I find rather odd is, my idle target table should have put it to 1400 RPM on initial start (due to coolant temp). Yet IAC commanded steps never got over 80...
Did you pull the IAC and inspect the pintle to see if it is sticking, perhaps the reason why you had to crack the throttle open to help it breath? That is what happened to mine when commanding 145 steps at cold temperature but wouldn't go higher than 90 steps...
30$ electric heater will work for that and keep the car warm inside
I dunno about that man. I'm willing to do a lot of things to the car, but when you are going 80mph and suddenly your windshield is full of dew and you can't see it's quite scary.
Man I'm getting old. I'm supposed to leave soon to drive an hour and a half for a Korn show and all I want to do is go to bed.
Did you thoroughly clean them before another attempt, if not this would cause all of that excess fuel backfiring in the exhaust...
No I bought new plugs. Going to install them tomorrow and start over.
Originally Posted by Street Lethal
Wow that's a lot, I am at 22* with the same compression. less cubes and more cam...
Yeah, that's what I thought..
Originally Posted by Street Lethal
Did you pull the IAC and inspect the pintle to see if it is sticking, perhaps the reason why you had to crack the throttle open to help it breath? That is what happened to mine when coimmanding 145 steps at cold temperature but wouldn't go higher than 90 steps...
No, but I may. In fact, I may do an output valve test too. I'm questioning if it's even working properly. Yet another thing I need to do tomorrow.
No meth, no intercooler yet. I have the hood off (is a 3" cowl) and the car is on the lift. These high iat temps were just idling in the shop. Was about 85 degrees out. I had the 24" over head fan going and the 20" by the door. Shop has ac but I can't run the car with the doors closed of course.
I intend on plumbing my air to water intercooler, but I really wanna get the idle air temps down first. 150 degrees is insane for a car with no hood on it.
My other issue is the bov isn't open at idle, which I think is skewing ve. Im gonna replace that next week.
-- Joe
I thought so at first. My first supercharger didnt have a bypass. This one does. Operating temp hood open it sits at 140-150 hood open and I have a filter in fender.By pass is different than a bov. It so the supercharger isnt beating the air while idling.
Its a tough thing to gauge, iats, when you dont have anything to compare to. I would bet if you took the supercharger off and put a hood on the car and drove it. Being the iat sensor in the upper manifold. Iats would be over a 100° probably in the 110-125 range on an 80° day. Heat soak. On my cowl induction setup I just visited the local diesel shop bought 4 inch exhaust pipe 90° off the 90° rubber off the back of supercharger then filter on end of pipe. Put it right over the manifold in the cowl.
I would tend to agree with your wideband, and that the backfiring is occurring under a lean condition caused by a lack of fuel, or improper timing
When i first went MS i had a huge backfire through the intake and i allways thought it was because of lack of timing down low or too much fuel (WBO2 indicated rich at the time of misfire) - I added tons more fuel and it solved the backfire/miss on hard accel.
Originally Posted by anesthes
It's possible I may have "missed the tune" when tinkering with it. I don't know anyone with a similar combo to compare it to. I'd personally like to idle around 22-24 degrees, and around 14:1 AFR but maybe the cam doesn't wanna idle that lean..
I just find it very strange that last week the car would start and idle without issue. All I did was change the water pump, and tighten the blower pulley and to keep it running I had to hold the throttle open quite far. Say I held it at like 2500 rpm, at the same throttle position RPM's would drop as it loaded up with fuel.
The other thing that I find rather odd is, my idle target table should have put it to 1400 RPM on initial start (due to coolant temp). Yet IAC commanded steps never got over 80.
-- Joe
From what ive read, bank fire idles best around 13-13.5 - Mine leans out a bit after a long drive on hot restart(14.-15.0), it idles, but very rough, and sometimes misses untill it idles for 15 seconds and the reading returns to normal.
Some of your "luck" is rubbing off on me Joe lmao, I think this forum is now jinxed lol. Was up all night pulling my flexplate off, but now that I got it all back together, my engine now suffers the same fate as yours does, exact same symptoms, wouldn't hold idle, running rough, needed more throttle. Saying to myself you gotta freaking be kidding me, Joe jinxed me lol. Went to my sensor data screen though and seen my 2-Bar MAP sensor was only reading 2.4 volts at key on engine off, so I am ordering a new one today. Check your MAP sensor Joe, just may be the culprit with yours too...
Some of your "luck" is rubbing off on me Joe lmao, I think this forum is now jinxed lol. Was up all night pulling my flexplate off, but now that I got it all back together, my engine now suffers the same fate as yours does, exact same symptoms, wouldn't hold idle, running rough, needed more throttle. Saying to myself you gotta freaking be kidding me, Joe jinxed me lol. Went to my sensor data screen though and seen my 2-Bar MAP sensor was only reading 2.4 volts at key on engine off, so I am ordering a new one today. Check your MAP sensor Joe, just may be the culprit with yours too...
MAP is fine, but the "Air density compensation" table might be screwing me. This thing pulls a stupid amount of fuel as MAT goes up. Like stupid amount. I understand the logic on a n/a motor, but on a blown motor the last thing you want to do is lean out as boost goes up.
I re-did the whole tune from scratch and I'm going to start over like a brand new motor later, after making sure my IAC actually works.
What do you usually shoot for in terms of steps at idle?
I'm also starting to think the dead time on these large injectors is screwing me. The turn on time is 1.14msec at 14 volts. My idle pw is between 1.8-2.0 using mimmicking GM batch fire. (2 quirts, simultaneous)
I only need 50# injectors for this combo.. Maybe I should sell them.
my air density table needed ALOT of work when i went forced induction. Are you running siemens 60's? If so ill check and see what i got my dead time at.
my air density table needed ALOT of work when i went forced induction. Are you running siemens 60's? If so ill check and see what i got my dead time at.
Yup. Feel like zipping up your whole project folder and emailing it to me? Curious how yours is setup. We're at the same altitude, similar setups.
What do you usually shoot for in terms of steps at idle?
I'm also starting to think the dead time on these large injectors is screwing me. The turn on time is 1.14msec at 14 volts. My idle pw is between 1.8-2.0 using mimmicking GM batch fire. (2 quirts, simultaneous)
I only need 50# injectors for this combo.. Maybe I should sell them.
-- Joe
I just re-did my tune from scratch as well. That is the one thing that is irritating regarding Tuner Pro, changes need to be made in many places to compensate for the one small change made in a specific area, otherwise it starts playing tug of war. I can't go too low in terms of IAC steps at idle, the lowest I could go with IAC steps without the fast idle screw triggering part throttle is in the mid 50's, whereas stock it's closer to mid 20's. I lowered Initial down to 10* from 12*, and raised Idle State up to 24* from 22*. Also found the reason why I wasn't seeing 1200-RPM during a cold start despite commanding that RPM in the table, must have overlooked it. Going to pull the plugs one final time for a good cleaning, then re-install and start the tuning process all over again with the stock 1-Bar MAP sensor just until the 2-Bar MAP gets in, hopefully tomorrow. Sell those injectors Joe...
I disabled IAC for now. I'm not 100% convinced it's working properly. When I power on the MS it extends and retracts as expected. When I ask the MS to extend it to 255 (all the way out) it does. When I tell it to retract it does. But then I can't give it any subsequent commands. Not sure if it's a tunerstudio bug or what. I remember doing this in an earlier version without issue.
My wideband is not reliable. I found an exhaust leak right in the collector, I guess the band clamp loosened up.
Sounds like your having some issues with MS. Hope you get it figured out. I am so glad I stepped away from MS. I disliked it very much so. What wideband are you using?
Sounds like your having some issues with MS. Hope you get it figured out. I am so glad I stepped away from MS. I disliked it very much so. What wideband are you using?
I'm using an LC1 with a bosch sensor.
I don't think I'm having MS issues, I think I'm having a wiring issue. The IAC worked fine when I had the LS2 throttle body. I switched from a singleplane to a miniram and re-wired it for the large TPI style IAC in the 58MM holley throttle body (which I bought off the forum used). I think I wired it wrong.
The Wideband issue is due to an exhaust leak. So what I did today was start off fresh again now that I have the blower on, piping all done, etc. I've got it idling at a good vac and the throttle is snappy with no pops or anything.
Looking at your config, that seems.. Very very low.
I noticed you have your dizzy bias (initial) set to 0, and your idle area around 8 degrees?
-- Joe
If i remember correct, base timing without any control from the MS or ICM is at 6* - the trigger offset should be 6, and the MS adds 2-3 degrees of timing in the tune(At idle), and yes ive verified its marks on the ballancer @ 8, 12 and 16 degrees
If i remember correct, base timing without any control from the MS or ICM is at 6* - the trigger offset should be 6, and the MS adds 2-3 degrees of timing in the tune(At idle), and yes ive verified its marks on the ballancer @ 8, 12 and 16 degrees
Hrmm. The tune you emailed me has an offset of 0, but the table shows a total of 8. So that would be 14 ? I just double checked the file you emailed me.
212/222 .435/460 112.5LSA - Stock crate engine cam. I fiddled with closed loop a while ago and never got it to work right (Then again it was the very first thing i went to being a MS noob expecting it to make the tune magically work) Havent bothered with it since. Car runs and idles consistantly in the 840-880 range so im happy with open loop. The one thing im not really happy with MS is that the closed loop descriptions is kind of vague for someone of my experience level. Everything else ive been able to figure out on my own, but closed loop settings/descriptions just baffles me
212/222 .435/460 112.5LSA - Stock crate engine cam. I fiddled with closed loop a while ago and never got it to work right (Then again it was the very first thing i went to being a MS noob expecting it to make the tune magically work) Havent bothered with it since. Car runs and idles consistantly in the 840-880 range so im happy with open loop. The one thing im not really happy with MS is that the closed loop descriptions is kind of vague for someone of my experience level. Everything else ive been able to figure out on my own, but closed loop settings/descriptions just baffles me
The naming conventions are from an electronics perspective I guess.
Basically "closed loop" in terms of idle means it's getting RPM and LOAD feedback and attempting to maintain a target idle vs coolant temp.
Open loop ignores RPM and has no target idle speed and such has no feedback. It simply sets a static number of steps vs coolant temp.
What screws people up is they are used to the DELCO terms open and closed loop being tied to the o2 sensor modes, but in MS it's simply whether or not an output feature is tied to a feedback sensor.
Where I get screwed up, and many like me is the fact that different idle valves have different direction pinouts (you see this from different ECM calibrations). Mopar valves (used by holley 4bbl) have the same connector as GM but are wired completely different.
And then I always forget which way is in vs out in terms of steps.
I gotta double check my wiring tonight or tomorrow, but I believe when wired properly 0 should be fully retracted (airflow wide open) and 255 should be fully extended (no airflow).
Ill have to poke at it again and see if i can get it to work correct. I'd really like it to compensate when the A/C compressor kicks on and lowers the RPM by about 100 - But theres worse things in life than a idle thats 100 RPM too low.
Ill have to poke at it again and see if i can get it to work correct. I'd really like it to compensate when the A/C compressor kicks on and lowers the RPM by about 100 - But theres worse things in life than a idle thats 100 RPM too low.
Yeah you gotta use a spare input for that to do it like the factory does. The MS closed loop logic is a little too smart for it's own good sometimes. It has some neat functionality like tapering or holding between shifts, but you could also really screw the pooch easy with the wrong settings.
I had the AC input hooked up the the power side of the climate control, but after using it twice in a row, It caused the car to stall out - so i took that out real fast. I assume there was some flyback voltage messing with the ECM
I had the AC input hooked up the the power side of the climate control, but after using it twice in a row, It caused the car to stall out - so i took that out real fast. I assume there was some flyback voltage messing with the ECM
08-26-2016, 04:56 AM
