Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Post 146 i already did

Its not operating at more than 1 volt....in thirdgens

Kingtal0n

The voltage comes from the sensor, all sensors are created differently and have different outputs because the grounding path between the ECU and sensor is not identical in all applications, and quality control from sensor to sensor makes minute changes as well.

All sensors you buy output 1v or 0.998volts or 0.899 volts or 0.894 volts or 1.004volts capable of those numbers of potential voltage to operate in the ECU hardware, and yet all of these voltage is equivalent in the eyes of the car's computer because they all signify the same thing: The sensor has gone high. The output is "tall". The digital signature is recognized as a "1" and the ECU, all ECU (thirdgen, mustang, nissan, toyota, mazda, ALL), will recognize this and the computers programming will understand this is a "rich" condition with unknown exact incremental value except for that the a/f ratio is less than 14.7:1.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Not sure i follow you there because the swing point for rich lean is 450 milivolts

Less than that is leaner than 14.7. Richer is higher than 450 mv. Its common to look for 900 mv at wot as it generally correlates to 12.5-13.5:1.

Again thats what the thirdgen cars ecm is doing

Kingtal0n

The way the ECU handles the information is setup by the programmer. Anything you come along and change is also your decision as a programmer. We can use any number(s) and implement any operation from within the software.

None of that has anything to do with the sensor. There is no constant .500volt output by a typical narrowband for any lengthy period. There is only the digital signiture to work with: a zero or a one. If there is a one, then the voltage is "high". If there is a zero, then the voltage is "low". The narrowband will not stay at "middle" as they are purposefully designed not to do that, except briefly when switching from "low" to "high" or high to low.

Kingtal0n

So lets pretend I buy a thirdgen and walk into any auto store and grab a random 1-wire O2 sensor and install it.

Now I measure voltage. The sensor does in fact put out 1.002 briefly when I scope with an oscilloscope and drops to a steady 0.977volts or so while the engine is rich between 14.3 and 13.9. So it is in fact "operating" at or near 1.00volts.

The software may be programmed to any number, for example to recognize 0.900volts and any more/higher as falling within the terms of this condition. but the curcuit is designed to withstand, and expects, voltage values of around 1.00v and perhaps even tolerate a bit more for safety by design, all to understand the digital output is "tall".

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I never said they sit there. If you watched the sensor it does switch high low and the ecm determines what is going on from all that. Its not 1 or 0, it ranges and is random high v and low v. The target guideline is 450mv, depending on the mask it may be higher. Esp when AIR is activated.


I dont know what you are getting at with all this.

Fact remains by telling ecm a different swing point, you can command somewhat different fueling ratios than stoich. Its crude but can work. Mainly do it at idle when cam overlap skews sensor. Blm goes wacky. Takes some messing around with but does work to a degree

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Perhaps you need a picture




Narrow voltage band where sensor is accurate to stoich. I dont think this 1 volt thing you are saying is correct operation at all

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I would seriously look at a stand alone system. You will probably find people who will tell you what you want to hear in terms of tuning the stock ecu. Problem is how will the system be able to read boost load vs vacuum in terms of fueling? With all the money you have in there now and the money you spent on the other dyno tune you could have had an aftermarket ecu already. Problem Im saying is not tuning the stock ecu if you can find a competent tuner, like maybe tpis or if lingenfelter still does it. Is the fact the car is 25 years old. Wiring and electronics degrade, get corroded.You may have a short or bad ground somewhere you will be tearing your hair out to find. Plus finding a competent tuner is going to be hit or miss. Most reputable tuning shops do all the aftermarket stuff.A wide band map type system is your friend here. Depending on price a p1sc may be all you need.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

What the heck are you two guys arguing about lol? Narrowbands lol?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I forget what the heck it was about. Something about how the narrow band works and being able to target other air fuel ratios

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It generally correlates to who the hell knows..

It only knows stoich, and not stoich. It swings to give an indication of not stoich up or down.

If you watch the voltage on a scope, it will swing between like .1 and .9 (and may exceed 1.0 volts).

The sensor works by pulling exhaust concentration, and outside air against the platium plates, and creates a potential. They are designed to indicate stoich at .450 volts.

I've seen the silly charts people create of voltage vs AFR, but the sensor wasn't designed for that. Also narrowband sensors do differ, so .900 volts on one sensor might be very different from another. It's just a crazy way to attempt a target AFR other than stoich.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its hit or miss depending on the combination, fuel type, and location of sensor as heat plays a role

But theres been many cases where a wot target air fuel ratio can correlate to a voltage on the narrowband. I have seen it. But not always the case. But i wasnt saying wot when i talked about rich lean offsets

That is more inline with the stoich value. Target is not far offset from sensors calibration range

Vanilla Ice

I am reminded of this thread from years and years ago...
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/comp...ussion-143169/

Linson

Status:

have just about finished with what i call a "boost compatibility exploration." the people at ATI say my engine should be good for 7-8 psi, maybe up to 10 - and up to 16 if i go with forged pistons, which would be nice, but not "tear my engine apart nice."

am leaving town for about a week long vacay. when i return, i will order the EBL flash and go from there.

i have a very nice AOD '89 Fox Body that i am wanting to sell in order to clinch the SC kit money. so... if anyone is interested.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I ran 9lbs on pump gas in a bone stock 89 engine with cast pistons. I ran mid 12s. On your combo with 9lbs Im sure the power will be there to get into the 11s, just depends on traction. So you will be safe with that 9lbs im sure. I run 14lbs on my 94 mustang with stock hypers. Unintercooled boost from a kenne bell 2.1. They way I manage that is methanol injection. You may want to just look into that a little. A great safe guard to running high boost on a stock stuff and getting away with it. I run 18° total timing on meth which is considered a balance between safe and power production. Enjoy your vacation.

Vanilla Ice

An aftermarket engine is not setup like an oem engine. I'd not hesitate to boost an OEM GM engine. I'd be weary of an aftermarket one. If it's built to be NA there is typically not much safety margin to deal with the pressures and detonation like in an OEM built engine.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont follow you there, oem stuff is naturally aspirated and dont have the materials or clearances designed for boost, yet many get away with small boost increases.

Aftermarkets built na usually being newer may have maintained tighter clearances than a wore out gm motor but in a sense its the same thing. Not exactly a boost build either, but if the aftermarket one has a better set of rods pistons or crank and have alittle more ring gap then it would be a better boost candidate.

Vanilla Ice

Piston design is crucial, in my opinion most important.
Oem are typically a good middle of the road. I'm by no means saying an aftermarket engine is inferior especially designed for boost and built by a Competent builder. Only saying if it's design is with weak ring lands then prepare for problems earlier than an oem block that has a safety margin built in already.

It all depends on the build and builder. clearly I'm not saying an oem block is ideal and that it can handle high amounts of boost but if the builder says low boost then an oem block in good shape can handle more.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Typically when building an n/a aftermarket / race prep, we run tighter ring gaps. This is probably one of the biggest things to consider. When building that same motor for boost, enlarge the gap. Also typically go with a piston that puts the ring farther down out of the fire.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yes and late model lsx stuff is built to tight tolerances with small low drag rings and yet they seem to love boost as long as tune is in order. Far from an optimal boost engine. I just dont see a properly built aftermarket one being any worse off. Actually aftermarket implies crate motor. Possible mass production stuff that may not be as good as a one off piece by a good local machine shop.
Looking at our motors, the rods are weak compared to even 300$ scat rods you can buy today. Piston wise, i havent seen cheap hypers but stockers dont look anything special. As long as proper clearances are maintained i wouldnt worry too much on mild boost applications on budget aftermarkets or oems. Just look over the parts list and see what it comes with. That will determine what you do

86CamaroDan

Ive never understood why a larger ring gap, why? More heat/expansion to deal with?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yes. More heat and pressure so you have to account for expansion/thermal growth. If not the ends will butt together and could pinch the piston ring land causing piston failure

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

My statement was in regard to boosting the stock cast piston motor which is really not ideal at all for boost. Stock rods,which in 89 were thinner than standard stock units of old. Cast garbage pistons. Will shatter with one bout of detonation. Stock heads and intake which flow crap. I went 12.60 at 112. This was in 1998. That time is not somthing to brag about in 2016. But in 1998 that was considered fast for a street car, esp an Iroc. His motor is built, even Hyper pistons are an upgrade to cast units. Ill tell you at the time I didnt run methanol as it was not big then for the mainstream as it is now. I tried running 12lbs on that same motor 2 years later. Guess what happened?It detonated. Carnage was all 8 piston broke the lands and both head gaskets blew out. He will be more than safe with a 3 core intercooler and conservative total timing like I mentioned. In 1998 tuning was an fmu, fuel pressure gauge, expensive *** wide band in the tail pipe, and reading the plugs. I ran stock timing advance on that motor at 9lbs. Way more than 18° . It was just alot richer on the boost. Today its alot more info comming out of the motor for a more efficient result. He will be fine.

Linson

Ordered:

EBL Flash ECM with Port Mod & serial port adapter.

the ball is now slowly rolling.

86White_T/A305

Smart choice sticking with the sbc and going procharged vs an lsx.This thread has taken some unexpected turns for debates but from my limited experience I think this is better suited for your goals.The money invested to do an ls swap plus bolt on parts to make the power goals you seek will cost slightly more than supercharging the car as it sits.The ease of installation is nice with less wiring/wrench time involved. Now tuning is where the lsx swap would shine for the massive support currently available.

If my 383 hsr build didnt knock the moment it was built ..i would still drive a sbc to this day.I went ls because i got lucky finding one cheap enough and a t56.I went turbo on my lq swap because of how easy it is to do with a stock ecu ontop of my ls swap already. I dont know if I wouldve tried going turbo on a sbc because I dont have enough support to have the car dialed in after being built especially being speed density and living in Canada. If I had to do it now with so many aftermarket ecu options I might have tried a haltech ecu and run a turbo sbc as i do like their products also.

Anyways good luck on the build,should make glorious useable power for a street car and still be ls fast...ls motors arent the be all and end all,just the latest fad.it will be aged and unwanted tech 20yrs from and the new generation of hotrodders will be arguing about swapping the gen 5 lt motors into 4thgens lol.

Linson

Have the EBL Flash with Port Mod.
Just bought a Lap Top.

Linson

Things to do, parts to buy before messing with wires and ECUs?

i think i'll need a 1 Bar Map Sensor, since the car is still NA. i'll have to get a 2 Bar when the Procharger is in play.
do i need to download WinBin or something, or is all the EBL software self contained? i just got the laptop yesterday and haven't even played with it.

i figure i'll be needing an MSD box once the Procharger is installed. i could get that now unless there is a specific type that is used when boost is involved.

?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Tune the timing with ebl. It can do boost retard so dont need a special box, just any hotter ignition box is fine. Doesnt need super fancy features

Could even tune 2 bar now. It wont run much different, theres plenty of range/resolution.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

2bar MAP will be fine unless you have a huge cam, which you wouldn't run with a blower anyway.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Excellent. With the EBL Flash w/port mod all you need to download is Tuner Pro RT...

It's free, registering is optional.

http://tunerpro.net/downloadApp.htm

The MSD Box is optional, you don't really need one unless it is a preference. The EBL Flash has complete control over your timing and VE when in boost. You can switch to a 2 Bar MAP sensor now even if you're running naturally aspirated...

Let us know when it is hooked up, we'll help you get it dialed in and going in minutes...

Linson

awesome. much appreciated.
i'm about to review the EBL thread that someone shared a link to in this thread.

Linson

just got my 2-bar MAP sensor in. O'Reilly's had to order it.

I've done the bit where I set up the cable to run with the new ECU and the laptop. i think the only thing that was changed was one thing had to be changed from "16" to "10".

I've made a couple of the little "tools for pin removal" out of some cotter pins.

I've never owned a "Speed Density" car before. looking at this MAP sensor, it appears that it is to be mounted externally somewhere, and it takes a vacuum line (my guess, is from the upper plenum? throttle body? lower intake?) and it looks like i can simply unplug the MAF sensor, and and plug that harness right in to the MAP sensor.

so, what i'm wondering is what to expect once i physically install this thing. it seems that the software is pretty limited and completely static without being hooked in to the EBL and a car. so, should i expect the car to start? is there a program or two already loaded in the new ECU?

i will definitely take you guys up on Street Lethal's offer to walk me through once its set up, but i was still wondering what to expect at zero hour.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

My MAP is mounted on the firewall like a TBI car is. I think Street Lethal is running a 90+ plenum which allows the MAP to mount directly to it.

Once you've made the pin changes to the harness, simply follow the initial start directions. I suspect you will plug in the ECM, turn the key on, connect the software. You'll probably need to set some initial things up like engine size, injector size, automatic vs manual, etc.

It will probably start and run. Then dial in your idle fuel, and start working on your part throttle tuning and so on.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The MAP sensor vacuum line will be connected via the upper plenum where the Fuel Regulator and HVAC grab their vacuum source. I made a custom bracket out of an LG4 MAP bracket and installed it onto the plenum in that area, but it will be easier for you to mount it like Joe has his in the TBI/LG4 location on the firewall, just need a bracket.

Which pins did you swap yet? It is a very easy process;

* Remove, fold back and tape off A2, C2 & C15...
* Move C1 to C2...
* Move C8 to C7...
* Move D15 to D14...
* Move B12 to C11...
* Wire MAP sensor pins onto MAP sensor;
A: GND (MAF sensor from Pin A)
B: Signal (MAF sensor from Pin C)
C 5V REF (wire directly to TPS pin C, or to C14 on ECM)

Once this is all done, confirm communication with EBL and WUD, then get ready to create a new starter bin which you'll be walked through whenever you're ready, then you'll Flash it in. Then check your sensor data, and if all is well and reading correctly at key on, the engine will fire right up...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No.

MAP pin A needs to go to sensor ground, which is D2.

MAF Pin A is system ground, which is D1, which is tied directly to the frame.

If you don't use the sensor ground you will get an erratic reading.


RBob's schematic:

http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_Drawings.php


Factory schematic:

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/p...165v8tpi-4.jpg



-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Why are you referencing a '7165 schematic? The wire taken from the former MAF sensor's Pin A is used for the MAP sensor's Pin A GND. It leads back to D2 on the EBL ECM, a Speed Density data stream based ECM...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Pin A on the MAF sensor goes to chassis ground, not sensor ground.

It doesn't lead to D2, it's merged with other grounds in the harness which terminate at D1.


Edit: Looking at RBob's schematics, it looks like A11 can provide ground for the MAP which used to be MAF pin B, although his preferred location appears to be D2.

A11 on a '746 which is obviously what the EBL is based on is TPS/IAT ground.

I cited '165 schematic because that's what his car has for an engine harness. His wires didn't magically re-route themselves because he bought a new ECM. If he wires the MAP ground to MAF pin A it WILL go to system ground (Frame, engine block, etc).


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Not here to argue semantics with you Joe, you are referencing an EBL schematic from 2008 in conjunction with a '7165 schematic while speculating how Rauscher wanted his datastream and how he wrote his firmware. His instructions clearly state to use Pin A from the MAF harness to ground the MAP, and if the picture you provided from Dynamic embellishes a MAP ground leading to D2 then that is how it is routed. If you need clarification regarding this I will invite him over if need be, but Linson has his instructions that came with the system, and it works for all EBL users with no erratic reading problems...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm not arguing anything. I'm telling you how the factory harness is wired, which is confirmed by the factory schematics.

MAF Pin A is wired to the chassis ground. Period. No debate.

The ADC channel which reads the MAP input should be grounded at the sensor ground, which is D2.

RBob's modification of the code (firmware) didn't change the wiring harness. A little code fairy didn't appear in the wire loom and reconnect the wires.

If you are suggesting that the schematics that RBob himself wrote and intended to be used are obsolete, and he now feels that it is perfectly fine to ground a sensor to the engine block rather than the sensor ground, than go right ahead and do it that way.

Frankly, I think you should double check with him. Using an engine ground for a sensor ground goes against logic. It's not a POT.


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Let me clarify because once again this thread is going the wrong way. I am fully aware of system and sensor ground locations, but again, I am stating what his instructions embellish which is to reuse the stock MAF wires for the MAP, and if his online schematic has the MAP GND leading to D2 into the EBL ECM, then that is where it is going. I am running an EBL-P4 that already came with a stock MAP sensor w/the '7730 so I cannot take pictures or confirm the wiring diagram for a '7165 to EBL w/MAP sensor for everyone right here and right now, but I can in fact confirm what the instructions entail because I have them, and have helped a local install an EBL Flash in his turbo Iroc. Again, let RBob clarify the online schematic with the instructions provided for you because it is his system, but I can assure you those are the wires to be used...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well that's an interesting position to take, but I believe in reality. The reality is, that pin A of the MAF plug goes to the chassis/engine ground. It does not feed into D2 on the delphi 56 connector.

If his instructions indicate to use PIN A, he made a mistake. I suspect he meant to say use pin B, which goes to A11 (and is basically the same thing, sorta).

I know for 100% certainty where pin A goes, because I have the same harness, and I also re-used the MAF plug for my MAP sensor. I have the schematics, which I linked you to. I personally traced the wire and performed a continuity test. I chose to splice my MAP ground to D2 by tying it into the ground wire leading to the TPS.

I don't doubt your instructions say that, so as far as I'm concerned there is one of two possibilities:

1) He made a typo, and meant to say use MAF pin B.
2) He suddenly things chassis ground is acceptable for MAP ground. (doubtful)

But if you are suggesting that RBob thinks MAF pin A goes to D2, I assure you he does not.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Joe, I understand what you're saying. Your original response to the instructions that I provided above was regarding Pin A of the MAF being used for the MAP GND. I cannot clarify why the picture on the Dynamic EFI website shows the EBL ECM having the MAP GND leading to D2 w/out any pin swapping because that would indicate it leading to D1 due to the stock nature of the '7165 harness. Again, I understand what you are saying. But understand what I am saying, the instructions clearly state to use Pin A from the MAF for the MAP GND with no other pin changes than the ones that I provided above, thus the reasoning why I state that it must lead to D2 if that is what it says. The EBL ECM picture was from 2008, and it is very possible that a change occurred thereafter and RBob felt that leaving it at D1 would not only simplify the swap, but also cause no erratic behavior after proper testing had been conducted and concluded. This is speculation on my part, but again, I cannot clarify why the instructions say one thing and the picture shows another. I already invited RBob here to clarify that for the thread...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Although if I had to guess, and I think this is the case, then you may have possibly jumped the gun a little Joe, and posted a picture of the EBL Flash for TBI systems which uses D2 as the MAP GND already from the getgo. I am not too sure that the picture you provided from Dynamic EFI was exclusively for the EBL Flash w/port mod, it might just be for the EBL Flash for the TBI conversions, not the '7165 w/port mod conversions...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The port mod doesn't change the ECM pinout. The pinout is stock for a '747/'746 ECM because that is what it is. The actual ECM is not modified (other than the port mod, which is just the injector drivers). The EBL is essentially an I/O extender.

But regardless of that, the wiring on the car is the problem. Again, MAF pin A is connected to the chassis ground. Even with the ECM unplugged, that pin is still grounded to the block.

I don't know why you are having such trouble grasping this, you're a smart guy.

-- Joe

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Linson, please wire the MAP as per the instructions I forwarded. It is correct and it works.

Joe, chassis ground and engine block grounds are two different things. All EFI harness grounds are tied to the engine block, nowhere else.

In general, the General wired the use of the ECM ground pins differently from vehicle to vehicle and year to year. With the exception of the O2 sensor ground, the others are all tied together on the ECMs main board.

This would be pins A11, A12, D1, & D2. And can be used interchangeably. With the connector layout those 4 pins are right next to each other. And all tie into the same ground plane on the ECM.

RBob.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Rob,

The engine block grounds are connected to the right cylinder head from the main engine harness, and a strap connects them to the body right by the distributor. I'm considering those chassis/engine grounds.

My point earlier, is that if you look at the schematic for the '165 ECM engine harness you will find that D1, Circuit #450 goes to the engine block ground:



This circuit connects to MAF pin A.

This wire, black in color with wh stripe, is bonded to the other ground wires connecting to the right cylinder head. I traced it myself just the other day when I was troubleshooting an ADC problem on my ECU.

Even the factory service manual shows the '746/'747 pin D1 to be grounded to chassis/frame. Sensor ground is D2.


-- Joe

mrestrictrplate

iTrader: (2)

I wondered this also. People used 5.3's for turbos instead of a Camaro aluminum ls1 which is 346 cubes. Is this because 5.3's are more plentiful and cheaper or does the shorter stroke make it run better. I see people seek out the 5.3, I'd think a 6.0 would make more hp with cam and heads. Boosted they all make crazy hp from what I see.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well I took apart a '746 ECM and D1, D2, A11, and A12 are in fact all tied together.

I'm failing to understand why it was wired this way.

Why have separate sensor ground wires go to separate pins inside the ECM if you are not going to isolate them anyway?

Everything else I've ever seen separates the sensor grounds with the system ground to reduce chance of noise (from another device) causing the sensors to be unreliable. The wiring harness appears to follow this standard but the ECM does not.

(So yes, Rob's instructions are correct)

I'm going to go eat my hat now.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Forget eating the hat, you can make it up to us by throwing up a video of that Vortech Supercharger in action...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I uploaded one a few minutes ago to my build thread.

-- Joe