anesthes

iTrader: (12)

But that is the majority of the internet...

I can agree on that.

The fastest I ever went was 120mph. My e/ts were all over the place on street tires. 3650lbs car. I ran it hard for 4 years, then I blew up one October. Have not raced a car since.

Our track changed from IHRA to NHRA and got very strict on safety. I'm not putting a cage in a car that I already have issues getting in and out of. I'm not wearing a jacket when it's 85 degrees out, or any of the other crap.

I didn't own a thirdgen from 2004 until 2012 when I bought this formula. I owned Corvettes, second gens, 4th gens, etc.

I think the fastest I can go with the formula is 130mph or 11.49 without needing safety stuff. I think I still need screw in valve stems and a driveshaft loop. I could build the car to go just as fast as you guys, I even still have a trailer to bring it to the track. But unlike your track that doesn't seem to give 2 farts about safety, I'd need to have the car certified and then I'd need a crane to lower me into it through the roof. Actually, they do the blindfold test so I still couldn't run as fast as you at the track.

It's not a money issue, I can buy all the go fast parts I need. I'm not willing to put a cage in the car.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Cuz I was an idiot. I kept advancing a non intercooled car making around 14lbs of boost with iron heads on a cold October night because I wanted it go get more MPH in the 1/4. What I got was 2 pistons broken.

My logs showed the injectors going static around 5800 RPM, and I was hitting up to 6200 shifting. 36# Ford injectors, 65lbs rail pressure, 200 degree IAT temps. Just plain stupidity.

That's a mater of opinion and taste. Stuff I drove in my 20s and early 30s I'd never drive now. I'm not saying the car is defective, I'm just saying I've lost interest in quirky hot rods. Which is why I've been looking at C7's lately. For only about 65 grand I can drive something that is as smooth as a prius and still faster than my 'race car'.


-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You are making the opinion of taste. I am stating fact, they drive on the street and get it done without issues. Mechanically sound and safe. Else they wouldnt have racked up over 7K miles between them. Whether its your type of car you'd own or not is a different matter.
You assume they are quirky. Thats not the case. To be fair you cant form the opinion on whether you would drive it or not based on assumptions and not actually seeing the car for yourself

I drive my car to the track btw. I dont own a trailer

Kingtal0n

It is common knowledge among the scientific community that turbochargers improve economy when implemented correctly.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...59431115009849


This is the only kind of link/article that will be tolerated in a scientific discussion. It is some form of research article. The quickest way is to use googlescholar.com to find interesting articles.

we can also consult the "non scientific source" or pseudo-science aka WIKI and generic internet, lets check wiki for example:
I don't agree completely with everything wiki has to say about it, and hopefully that emphasizes the idea, why we usually stick to genuine research style articles because they are held to some kind of invisible standard minimum I guess.


2. There are many variations of turbocharging, some have water/steam energy transfer systems and don't forget alternative fuels. Just because gasoline is gone, you think all turbines will disappear? A turbine is a powerful icon and it will be around forever, even if only in electronics.

3. I have personally measured gains in fuel efficiency when turbocharging. You can measure it by recording fuel injector duty cycle and engine vacuum and comparing two situations. The gain is amplified when valve timing is set to take advantage of the positive pressure supplied by a proper compressor, even at cruising speeds the increase to pressure is significant to rapidly fill a cylinder, giving the need for a less throttle opening and thus higher engine vacuum, and there is a reduction to injector duty cycle approx 8% lower during cruise on a low 8.5:1 compression engine (higher compression shield yield more economy return).

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Maybe, in a perfect world, and if the car is driving itself, and conditions can be maintained. Unfortunately cars are driven by people, and they like to step on the pedal to the right followed immediately by stepping on the brake.

Forced induction has a higher BSFC than naturally aspirated engines, period. You will use more fuel per horsepower than a naturally aspirated car.

Sure, people debate this, even in the science community. The world is filled with junk science.

No, but what does that have to do with anything? All I said was that exhaust driven turbos are not the future, electrically driven turbos are. My centrifugal supercharger is a belt driven turbo. Audi has been pioneering electric motor driven turbines. This technology removes turbo lag, exhaust issues (burnt valve seats, guides), and cures the problem of parasitic loss and crankshaft issues you mentioned.

The throttle position is irrelevant. It's about volumetric efficiency and air fuel ratio. You are getting a certain amount of air, you add a certain amount of fuel, and you add appropriate spark timing to ensure complete combustion. You've dictated your fuel economy based on your desired air fuel ratio, as a tradeoff to the engines power output.

There is some data to suggest the spent exhaust charge turning the turbine and producing positive pressure may overcome the parasitic losses caused by friction in the pumping action of the engine, but those gains are diminished through other losses.


But we're wandering way off topic.


-- Joe

Kingtal0n

You are talking about WOT now. Of course at WOT we use more fuel lol. This conversation up until this point was based solely on CRUISE situation.


this is actually exactly on topic. What you say is exactly true, positive pressure is less the friction of the engine resulting with better economy is exactly what is happening. What other losses are you speaking of? The energy to drive the turbine comes from the collisions of exhaust gas molecules with their container - which they are doing with the same initial velocity regardless of whether they are striking the surface of an exhaust header or the surface of a turbine. Efficiency loss can/do occur when the turbine causes an increase in pressure on the exhaust valve side of the turbine, but through proper camshaft timing the result outweighs the input energy, and economy wins the tug of war, if the turbine has been implemented correctly (severely oversized or undersized turbines are not going to work well).

The way this works is best for our community is, we each find actual research articles which support our claims with references. I claim properly implemented turbos help improve economy and I have to find actual papers with references that back that claim up or somehow relevant. You must equally find papers which support your claims that turbochargers decrease economy somehow. And at the end of the day, it will be up to the community to review and to make their own decisions.
first one was already provided, here it is again
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...59431115009849

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Correct, but implemented correctly implies efficiency, meaning the turbo must be properly sized, and intake air temperatures must be ambient or less...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I know, but the human part of the issue negates any benefits. I'm being the devils advocate here.

Losses are typically heat related which causes more fuel consumption. And I realize you are going to then discuss intercooling, but that's a whole different debate. The other issue is the relationship of cam timing vs backpressure. The OP doesn't have access to modeling software nor is he making custom camshafts. Do you know how much money ford spent designing the ecoboost engine??


I don't think anyone cares at this point. People are going to do what they want. I managed to go down a rat hole, and I didn't mean to.

Btw, I still like turbos, I just didn't like the one I had. I'd love another turbo truck.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Maybe the OP should just buy my car, so I can spend more time playing with my vettes

-- Joe

Kingtal0n

During a cruise there is little pressure rise (boost). The increase in pressure is only slight, a fraction of a single psi perhaps. The plumbing at this point plays a major role because if there is a large intercooler or a difficult core to pass through, it will affect the compressor output. Ideally there would be no intercooler and the pipe would be very short (strictly talked about cruise situations). The idea is to hold as much of the temp in the exhaust system as possible, with coatings, blankets, wraps, because temperature is energy, and it will speed the exhaust gas and provide more force to drive the turbine (the temp is higher due to $$$ spent for fuel which is what we are trying to preserve, so think of temp rise above ambient as $$$ spent in fuel). Following this, that means hotter air has more $$ in it, so preserving that $$ as it soaks into the compressor and into our intake air is also important, as hotter air contains more energy and the efficiency will be further improved (newer vehicles comes with 210+*F thermostats for this reason IMO) Crossfire TA told me what seems like a hundred years ago, that an engine will make the most power with the largest mass of hot as possible air you can cram into the cylinder. It was one of the biggest omfg realization moments of my life (before I took any physics course) about how temp rise IS energy, thats our $$.

During WOT our objective changes from preserving $$ to preserving the engine longevity, which means we need to limit temperature of combustion (we can do this by throwing even more $$fuel at it, going rich causes a temp decrease), while we try to extract as much energy from fuel using air as possible to drive the piston with a force provided by expanding gasses. Said another way, The rate of those expanding gasses is temperature dependent and based on the fuel quality, we need to limit the temp of the combustion event in order to prevent the reaction from proceeding too quickly if the fuel is poor (detonation, sudden pressure spikes which ruin bearings and head gaskets and put holes in pistons and cause ring butting crown fractures).

A common way for engines on 93 with forced induction to control temp rise is water/methanol injection. As water proceeds from liquid->gas it carrys a large amount of energy with it that helps hold the temp in the cylinder from skyrocketing, so that the energy in the fuel can be extracted (less energy per molecule but more molecules total) without causing a meltdown or runaway explosion that damages parts. Water/meth lower temp, so they reduce our $$temp (its like throwing away energy at that moment because too much in that instant would cause a problem, but in the next instant it is gone and we cannot take it back even if we can use it now)

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Superchargers are way more efficient though, high EGT's in warm weather wreaks havoc on the rolling assembly with turbo's in time, and not everyone bothers with methanol these days. Audi's, BMW's, even the new Caddy turbo's, they are all incredible vehicles, but not too many see them in the garage when they need fixing. It's brutal...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Getting off topic but what is the power demand of that electric motor to spin a compressor i wonder? High amp load requires alot of alternator which in itself isnt free power, theres alot of loss turning those as well.

Kingtal0n

I always use water injection on every car, whether it needs or not (I mean cars I tune that run without it fine, I still use it anyways if possible) because of the carbon cleaning effects. I would never run an engine from 0->200k without it, the piston at the end is night and day. The only 'problems' I see with these systems is that people that have them for a while tend to eventually forget just 'that one time' to fill the bottle toast an OEM engine. Using water/meth injection one can take an $800 longblock cast piston 5.3L truck engine and produce around 500/500 hp/tq reliably for 50-100,000 miles from a used engine. The combination is well known and has a significant reliability statistic associated with it, which is extremely rare for what are mostly budget, home fabricated systems of varying quality.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-ind...lity-list.html

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...lity-list.html

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Belt/gear driven superchargers could be if you think about it. Since twin superchargers are starting to become the norm, Joe picture a V6 or even 4 banger with twin superchargers sized accordingly to maintain boost pressure at idle. There are of course ways around traditional vacuum breaks for those who are concerned, but the off idle power throughout the band would be absolutely insane...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Google "Audi electric turbo". Spend hours reading.

-- Joe

Kingtal0n

This is worth exploring. One example, in 1989 one can buy a nissan 2.0L engine which has finely tuned camshaft profile for it's OEM turbocharger with a high exhaust gas pressure and tiny turbine. The R&D is already done 25 years ago by several OEM manufacturers and believe it or not, the overlap is significant for aftermarket grinds which provide even more performance from the OEM head. In other words, common sense seems to dictate that exhaust valve should be shut against the high pressure situations and overlap prevented to keep it from influencing intake charge. In practical application, this has not proven to be true. Even when using a highly restrictive OEM exhaust system, this particular engine responds well to increased duration and overlap camshaft profiles, even to the point it develops a severe "lope" at idle.

The key in this discussion will be: the type of engine we are discussing. This is really where you get conflicting data and I will demonstrate what I mean.

Consider next, a "newer"(not sure of exact year but I've seen the K20AX in person on a dyno) Honda 2.0L K20A3 engine, naturally aspirated high compression. The engine tech is beyond anything Nissan offered in 1989 of course, some of them even have variable camshaft timing and completely fully tuned acoustics the motor achieves an impressive RPM with an almost perfectly flat torque line from idle to redline. This particular engine by Honda is almost certainly easier to spin (draw pistons up or down) than the clunky Nissan 2.0. The Nissan engine is built more robust, for more output, thus its rotating assembly is heavier, max RPM is much lower (7200~) every component has been beefed up and even the engine weight is higher than some V8s due to excessive girdling and reinforcement of the aluminum block. The Nissan engine likely benefits much more from the turbocharger because of the severe pumping loss that the engine experiences without the turbo helping fill the cylinder. The Honda engine probably will achieve a very similar economy (I still think it would get better, but it might be insignificant / impossible to measure) with or without a turbocharger of any kind because of its inherent, lightweight high compression character is already maximizing what fuel has to offer.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My thoughts were confirmed. 48v system on top of the 12v. Thats taxing. And it uses two regulator exhaust powered turbos and the electric compressor to give instant power off idle before the turbos come in.
Not impressed. Just more crap to deal with and more stuff that can fail

I like the idea of 7-8 speed transmissions more. Gearing makes up for lack of turbo response. Or variable geometry turbos and or converters to increase spool time

Kingtal0n

progressive nitrous can be used to speed things up as my initial go-to solution for laggy setups. But there is no excuse to be laggy i.e. the technology exists to place a 100lb/min compressor in the rear of a vehicle (1000whp each) and drive it to full boost at a fairly "low", reasonable rpm (a range you would expect for such a combination gives say a 4k-8k operation range or at least 4k-7k). Let me see if I can find a good example.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That twin 88 rear mount car has designed in lag to help it hook and a 300 shot just in case they want to speed things up. And it turns 8100+ rpm which is not cheap to do ina pushrod v8 nor is it long term lasting
That is not the way to do it for a street car or oem car

Kingtal0n

My attention was directed into the turbine's ability, not the engine. You mentioned something about lag, and I am pointing out that it is not necessary to have much if everything is mated well. If you find an extreme example, (i.e. 2000bhp vette) and it can spool 2k worth of turbine by 4k rpm (no nitrous) then you should be able to do MUCH better if your goal is only less than half of that output.

The nitrous can be used very sparingly, perhaps 20-50 progressive shot is all that is needed if you accidently go too large somewhere in the system. Its a lot of extra crap to carry around though, so I am not actually recommending for street cars (strictly street). If you have to compete or are trying to get "the most" out of anything it never hurts to have a little nitrous, unless you are already on the fringe of the piston capacity.

Think of a combination such as twin T04E 50 trim compressors with 48 area/radius turbines on a random 5.3L V8, even a stock one. It is not going to experience much lag, the torque would almost be in line with what the engine starts off producing and supplement through the entire range at low boost, there would be no large "rush" or peaky nature in the dyno graph of such a setup. It would be limited in power by the tiny compressor and restrictive turbine, but would still allow 30-40% increased engine output over stock. You could take 350hp and turn it into 500.

In fact here is an old dyno graph of what this pair of turbos can do on just 2.6L of displacement! Imagine if you had a whole extra 2.6 engine to drive the second turbine.

86CamaroDan

Holy F this thread blew up. Good stuff.

Linson

Alright... I feel like we've gotten a bit into the weeds now. Here is where I am right now. As I said, I am leaning belt driven centrifugal supercharger for this Formula. The key now, I think is formulate a plan of action to make this project successful and not just jump in with both feet on a bunch of parts. This is what im foreseeing - please tell me where I'm incorrect.

1. A more tunable ECU should be my first priority.
1a. This will most likely involve transitioning from MAF to speed density. Proven quality and effectiveness is key for me. Price, within reason, is not the main concern.

2. Fuel system. Will my Walbro 255 be fine? My Holley AFPR should come in handy. I am running Accel 24lb injectors. I'm assuming that I'll need to go bigger.

3. Spark. My limited understanding indicates that I will need a 6AL box or similar. If someone wants to explain exactly why my existing ignition system may be inadequate, I'd be happy to learn about that aspect - I mean I'm sure It amounts to "more air & more fuel needs more spark" but what does an MSD box actually do? I've owned them and used them but never understood how it worked.

4. The blower. I'm not doing this without an intercooler. I want a kit - a 3rd gen kit, so that limits my options to Procharger. I have heard (read) someone say that the bracketry is not very well made. Unless someone can turn me on to a kit from another brand, it looks like I might have to take my chances. I called Vortech, they can't do it, and Torqstorm doesn't do it either.

5. I'm still feeling pretty ****ed on the tuning aspect though. Not sure how easy it is, realistically, to get an EBL system and just start tuning my car. Were the tuning of TPI not such a forgotten language, it seems like I could purchase and install all of the supporting mods I've talked about, including the ECU and tune, prior to pulling the trigger on a blower.

How am I doing? Any other supporting mods I've failed to consider? Suggestions?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The EBL system will take minutes to install, and minutes to tune. There are dozens of EBL tuners more than willing to give free advice, and even free tunes to help you get started. But you don't need all that, the system comes with bins, just select the closest one to your setup. Changing injector and engine size takes seconds. You will understand when you see it, right now you are getting yourself worried for no reason...

By the way Linson, where do we get a replacement set for those hex headed headlight adjustment screws? Not the light screw settings, but the one adjuster per side to adjust how high/low the headlight assembly itself sits in conjunction with the hood and fenders?

Linson

That's great news on the EBL.

On the headlight adjuster thingies, I have no idea.
Did you see an under-hood picture of mine, and it appeared that mine had been replaced?
It's a 37k mile car (w/ 7k on the engine). I haven't had to replace those.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Ebl is very similar to stock code but few extra features. Its your best bet for a beginner tuner.
I did a 383 tpi procharged car with ebl. Loved it. 520's whp 550 tq on 8.5 psi. Very easy to work with. I dont like the datalogging as much as say oem stuff using tunerpro rt dash but it is decent enough.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The lack of real time tuning makes it kinda useless though. A guy down the street, I think he's a forum member, build a wild 355 and got an EBL. Dialing in the idle was like burning proms in the 90s. change, restart, change, restart. And yes, I realize everyone with a stock car says it's just a "bump" when you flash it. Bull, it stalls the vehicle every time. Limp mode on a modified engine is more like push home, even for 3 seconds.

Even stock code with an ostrich, I just watch the wideband and + or minus the VE table.

The auto tune functionality, again because it's not realtime, makes assumptions about corrections but can't actually apply and test them. Again, everything else out there will change 5 or 6 cells then continue learning and may change them again and again until the desired target AFR is achieved.

No offense to Magnus, but Tunerpro sucks. Period. And you can't tune with the WUD software, so you have to switch back and forth, which is dumb.

If you switch to LSx it's useless, can't do 8 cylinder sequential or CNP.

With some minor changes it would have been a fantastic system like 20 years ago.

RBob is a very smart guy, but deciding to base it around 30 year old electronics and software wasn't a great idea. Had he built a modern ECU from scratch, and wrote software from the ground up (including tuning software that was complete with logging) I'd probably use that rather than Megasquirt. It's like the guys on the Commodore forums selling expansion boards for their Amiga's. Those computers were so cool when we were teenagers. But they are less powerful than my smart phone now.

Heck, maybe even a fitbit.

My recommendation for the non-computer elite would be a MS3pro or the new Holley stuff. (Although the holleys fueling logic is a bit bizarre).

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yup, his recommendation for a non computer elite would be the MS3pro lmao. Members running the Megasquirt system on this website inevitably switch to something else, in fact, a member in this section switched not too long ago and stated that the engine runs much better with the Holley system over the Megasquirt. I guess he wasn't what we consider to be a non computer elite. Members running the EBL stick with the EBL...

Linson, don't listen to members who comment on a system they do not run or have never tuned. The EBL system will save you the trouble of having to rewire the whole car, it will keep your emissions equipment in tact and control your torque converter without the need for any additional add on's or expense. You have on the spot tuning help from hundreds of members, you don't have to rely on a handful, or a Megasquirt forum that takes days to respond back to you...

Proof is in the pudding though Linson, this was after an hour of installing and tuning the EBL system in my GTA. Note that the cam is huge and provides only 10" of vacuum at idle, idle RPM was set to 900-RPM, and dialed in for 14.7 air/fuel throughout. You will never see the RPM gauge go under 900-RPM or even stagger even after blipping the throttle, and yes, the RPM was capped by me at just under 6000-RPM, and despite being a stock TPI system, the engine would have pulled past it if I let it. Very aggressive cam, yet the engine is more street friendly than engines with much less. Note that the only two lights on in the cluster were for the air bag and for the vats, both of which I had removed but kept the latter in the bin at the time.

Again, this video was immediately after the install a few years back, just to show you there is nothing to worry about...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Steve (who's will actually be here in 20 minutes oddly enough), Had a old MS2 3.57 which is 10 years old. He had a makeshift harness, and his issue was a dead spot. We don't know what his actual problem is. He sold the harness to a forum member and the MS2 to me. He replaced both the ECM and the harness with a brand new Holley system.


Comparing that to a MS3pro is silly. You know better.


I see EBL's almost weekly for sale in the classified forum.

Re-read what I said. I've tuned one. It's basically the same as stock, but without emulation capability.

You can't dispute the EBL has almost no modern capabilities compared to aftermarket. The nail in the coffin was a few months back when we asked RBob if he was going to add a feature, (wastegate control) and he said he had no intention.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...ml#post5990379

Has an update even been released since 2014?

Remember this thread:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...t-coils-2.html

Closed without even answering the questions.

I used to endorse the EBL as a decent entry level system for beginners. I can't endorse something with stagnant development and almost no feature matrix.



-- Joe

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

@Linson - In a word (or two); more current. In a stock system, all current (power) that ends up at the spark plug, must go through the ignition module before getting to the coil. More current = more heat = burned out ICM. With an MSD-6A[L], the ICM is now just a low(er) current trigger for the box. The 10g wire from the battery to the -6A flows more current, allows a bigger* coil, and therefore more power to the spark plug.

* "bigger" coil is not necessarily, but may be, a physical dimension. It will have a lower resistance, which allows/requires** more current, to create a larger magnetic field, that when the field collapses, creates a higher voltage/higher current/longer duration spark.

** The best coil for the MSD-6A will burn out a stock ICM by flowing too much current. The best coil for a stock ignition will have too high a resistance to flow that extra current the MSD's is capable. Analogy; Think using a -4AN fuel line for your 400hp+ engine.

Also the Multi-Spark Discharge will happen at crank/idle/low RPM, when there is actually enough time to fire the plug more than one per cycle.
1000rpm * 4 ignition/revolution = 4000 sparks/min = 66.6 sparks/sec = 0.015 sec per spark... not enough time for more than 1 spark per cylinder. However, cranking at 100rpm, there is 150ms between cylinders firing to squeeze in multiple sparks... and a late ignition is better than none, and will still provide useful pressure for turning the crank.

Other opinions on the web:
Corvette Forum
Camaros.net

And the company advertisement:
CAPACITIVE DISCHARGE
The Digital 6A and 6AL feature a capacitive discharge ignition design. The majority of stock ignition systems are inductive ignitions. In an inductive ignition, the coil must store and step up the voltage to maximum strength in between each ring. At higher rpm, since there is less time to charge the coil to full capacity, the voltage falls short of reaching maximum energy which results in a loss of power or top end miss.
The MSD Ignition features a capacitor which is quickly charged with 520 - 535 volts and stores it until the ignition is triggered. With the CD design, the voltage sent to the coil positive terminal is always at full power even at high rpm.
MULTIPLE SPARKS
The MSD produces full power multiple sparks for each ring of a plug. The number of multiple sparks that occur decreases as rpm increases, however the spark series always lasts for 20° of crankshaft rotation. Above 3,000 rpm there is simply not enough “time” to re the spark plug more than once, so there is only one powerful spark.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Gosh you are the most picky person on the planet

You seem to be the type to just buy a system and bring it to a shop to have someone tune for you

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

And to those who think you need modern capabilities....most aftermarket systems dont do any better on simple builds than stock oem electronics

Unless you have a setup like a complicated power adder deal that needs to monitor a bunch of features like boost or nitrous controls, egt, backpressure, etc, you dont need a complicated system

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Nope, I just don't see the point in making it harder for yourself.

You are also an engineer, I'm surprised the position you are taking on this. Why wouldn't you want the best tool you can afford?

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Btw, I just picked up an LS motor 30 minutes ago. It's dangling from a cherry picker in my shop. If anyone needs any measurements or pictures let me know.

I'm not even sure what I'm going to do with it, but it sorta fell into my lap.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

We worry about being efficient as possible. Dont need a sledgehammer to drive in a nail lol. I spend where i need to. Oem ecm if everyone would take time to learn is more than capable of doin anything you want.

zz17iroc

iTrader: (4)

Linson, EBL should meet all your needs if you choose to go that route with no issues. I've been using it over two years now. I am currently making 700rwhp on 16lbs and run 6.0's in the 1/8 mile, I also managed to run a 5.93 @ 116mph on 19lbs of boost. I like the way Orr thinks and how he articulates what he wants to say, it always seems to be more encouraging for the members on this forum wanting to go faster or trying something new. He should know what he is talking about because he's been there, done that, and got the T-shirt.

Don't get me wrong I know there are better ECM's. But if you are on a budget, EBL should be considered.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well, I run a R&D facility (software and hardware) and we have to be the best we can in our market or our competition will put us out of business.

Some OEM ECM's, yes, not that one. If it was, wouldn't you be using it for CNP and sequential injection on your V8?


-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well theres the issue. You dont have to be the best to enjoy this hobby. None of us have the pro stock or formula 1 budget to be cutting edge, the best there is in the industry. Think of the application here and apply the best method to suit

You dont need a holley dominator for a 400 hp build lol but not gonna discourage you from goin that direction if you have the money


And regarding the cnp stuff. Its cheaper than aftermarket ignition box and distributor. Cleaner install. So i used a pcm that handles that. Another cheap oem unit.
Stock thirdgen stuff was fine. I didnt run any faster with coil near plug sequential vs code $59 730. I never got a good run with the 730 however because at the time i had valvetrain issues and no trans brake to really get car moving. But it did go 137 spooling late on 12 psi, which is spot on to what i ran after sequential conversion. When i fixed the valvetrain deal i went lsx 411 and regret it because now i have to switch again for the new build. Holley would have worked well

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Not that one lol? This is the problem when someone comments about a system that they have absolutely no clue of. The only thing stopping the EBL system from being Sequential Fuel Injection and Coil-Near-Plug is the fact that the original design of the engine did not come with these features from the factory using the '7730 and Bob wanted to keep it as close to the original design as possible, on purpose. You do realize that Dynamic EFI also offers an SFI system to replace the even older '7148 ECM in the very same fashion, a Flash alternative for the Buick Grand National with cam and crank sensor data that has SFI and CnP, do you not? As a favor to '7730 users, Bob gave the EBL guys boost and alky control because there was a need. He could give the EBL users SFI and CnP features whenever he wants to, but there is no need for it, and most guys don't want to bother changing things when the system already works and does what it's supposed to. He chose not make it complicated for the consumer because it is not needed in a replacement ECM that was originally and only intended to eliminate prom burning while maintaining every other function. If there is a need, he will do it, but there isn't. I think the problem here is you have a problem with Bob Rauscher, and are taking an ECM that was only designed to eliminate prom burning and using it as a means to justify some ridiculous agenda to bash him by making comparisons with universal systems that are more oriented for race car builders. Not everyone runs a turbo. Not everyone runs a power adder. There are more naturally aspirated TPI guys on this board that are just looking to eliminate prom burning as a way to ease tuning than there are guys wanting to run 2 seconds in the 1/4 mile. I mean give me a break. Linson's car is a cream puff with LOW miles, who in their right mind would encourage him to mess with his stock harness and sacrifice his car just because one favors an ECM over another? The EBL is the right choice for him, it will do everything he needs, and it will retain his stock appearance with minimal changes, and by minimal I mean just a few pin outs behind the ECM. Seriously, I can't believe these threads even go this way...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

My MS was actually cheaper than an EBL, believe it or not. The MS3pro is about a grand though.

So you kinda arrived at the point I was trying to make. Every time you have a new combo, you are using a different ECM. You need 24x, you need 58x, you need a dizzy.

The Megasquirt, Holley, pretty much anything you buy now will work with any ignition, any injector, etc. It's simply my preference to use a system that is very adaptable on everything I own (that is EFI). It doesn't matter if it's a chevy, a ford, an import, etc. Same software, same GUI, same experience.

I just picked up a LS motor yesterday, and I plane on using the MS2 that Steve sold me. I'm just trying to figure out what I want to put it in.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Now that's a crock. RBob said "I would put the EBL up against any system". Well, if that's true than shouldn't it support the same functionality as any system?


Yes, but not for V8. What's the use of that for V8 owners?

As a "favor?" For a system that he would "Put up against any other" I'd expect such features, especially for the price. An EBL isn't cheap. It's not like this is shareware.

Oh? Because people are not doing CNP conversions or going to LS motors in their thirdgens huh?


Claiming something is great, and then saying that it doesn't have certain functionality because "nobody needs it" is insane. With the exception of a small group of thirdgen owners, and a few TBI truck guys, nobody is using this system. Go on turbo forums, yellowbullet, etc. For every EBL there is over a thousand aftermarket systems.

And again, I have no problem with RBob, even though you seem to imply this is personal.


-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You are again assuming the user will be changing combos frequently. Most do not do this. And that didnt seem to be the point you were trying to make it just came to you now. The original point was trying to argue functionality of aftermarket vs oem for controlling engine operation. Not necessarily being versatile for multiple applications

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

well duh, only thirdgen owners would be using ebl since it was designed for thirdgen systems. Sure it can be adapted to a sbc v8 in another vehicle but most guys who arent into thirdgens would never know about this system

And i would also say the amount of ppl doing 411 pcm 24x swaps are few and far between. So much so that eficonnection didnt even know that balancers greater than 1.3" thickness wouldnt work with the vortec sensor timing cover. I found that out and they added the note to their website

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The thread title is "LS1 vs Procharger".

He can't use an EBL with an LS1, and he's got more boost friendly functionality with the MS3pro or Holley.

If the thread title was "I have a stock TBI/TPI firebird, and I want a good ECM" than you guys would be spot on for your recommendation.

I'm not changing points, I'm giving him a recommendation for the application he requested.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Most people doing 24x, or 58x, or EDIS are not using a GM ECM

Do you have any idea how many LSx motors are in fox body mustangs ? They are not using 411 ECMS.

Open your minds guys. Your stuck in a rut with journey playing in the background.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well they are retarded for not using it. I dont know many that do a budget lsx swap and NOT use the oem pcm. The oem is cheap and more than capable of handling a china turbo 5.3 that everyone is doing. You buy a 5.3 complete with harness and ecu for 500-1000$. Why wouldnt you use that? Wiring is already done for you lol

For thirdgen guys, integrating it to the c100 for gauges and fuel pump operation is simple enough. Most guys are scared to death of alittle wiring and cant read a diagram. Its a shame

I see alot of swaps. I see alot of forced induction builds. I see alot of 411 or 58x oem systems. Not sure my experiences line up with your internet statistics

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The thread implies you buy an ls1 with oem harness and pcm for swap purposes.

Other option is standalone swap harness but most swaps are with stock pcm. Its the easiest cheapest way to do it

Procharger sbc issue raises the point that you HAVE to change ecm code or systems all together. No way around that. Thats why this thread is discussing ecm systems. Fmu can work but is a crappy way to do it and i dont recommend it. Fuel pumps dont like that pressure

zz17iroc

iTrader: (4)

It seems we are all stuck in a rut then, because we all own 3rd gens and constantly compare them to late model cars and their technology LOL. It is like comparing "Apple to Oranges". There is nothing wrong with 3rd gen technology when you know its limitations. What's good enough for one person may not be good enough another, but as long as that person is satisfied with the end result, then how can we argue what's better. A matter of opinion, that's why I like this forum and enjoy my 3rd gen. If I want an LSX I would gladly get a 4th gen with all it's newer/better technology.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I actually just sold my 4th gen last summer.

Anyway, we upgrade our engines, our heads, our cam, suspension, etc but then we use a junkyard ECM to control a $10,000 motor.

Whatever. I gave my recommendation, everyone gave theirs. The OP can do as he wants. He should have the information he needs to make a decision.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

A 200$ Swap meet carb doesnt have any of the advanced efi controller features yet seem to do fine for over 50 yrs

Linson

i am going to attempt to reel the discussion in so that i can formulate decisions based on it. i am not taking sides in the debate, but i want to clarify some things, so that you guys who can help me, can better understand what i am looking for.

1. cost is not my primary concern. if i have to spend 2 g's to get exactly what i want, then i will. if $500 does it just as good, then i will go that route.

2. my goal is a 400-500 wheel horsepower Formula that is fairly inconspicuous on the street (i.e., doesnt sound like a freight train, isnt going to be a 50/50 proposition on whether the car will make it home).
2a. I have no intention of changing this combo once i achieve my goal. therefore, and anesthes, i do want to know if you agree with this - if, on my hypothetically Procharged, mildly built (head/cammed) L98, the EBL system can give me:
smooth, reliable start up and idle
smooth, reliable operation
sufficient computing power to iron out any tuning gremlins
AND is a fairly straight-forward installation that requires minimal re-wiring on a car where everything works,
and is easy to use,
then it seems like that would be a good system for me - unless there is a compelling reason to go with a "non-3rdGen-centric" system - like noticeably better idle/driveability characteristics or 5 more miles per gallon.
2b. fwiw, Street Lethal's YouTube video shows an idle quality that i could definitely live with.
2c. let me say once again that i do not intend to frequently nor even infrequently change combinations on this car as it will be neither a dedicated race car nor will it be a test bed. with luck, it will simply be my super sexy, 500 horsepower Formula.

it seems to me that ALL of you guys know what your talking about, so the best i can do is to make clear my application and goals in order to keep the discussion less theoretical and more specific to my application. hopefully i've clarified both what i'm willing to spend, and most importantly, what i'm trying to do.

thanks again. this input IS helping me make my goal a reality.