HorseflyDF

I guess I should put it on a different board.

I figured since you guys like to use aftermarket
tube suspension components,
This car is perfect for it you could build your track car..

redraif

Well then I guess venders should not claim them for street driven cars...this is my whole point! Weigh is meaning less. Need a better handling set up as the car will soon enter autocrossing.

Exactly!

redraif

Exactly... I have never hit a pot hole in them!

Dewey316

With coil over and tubular a-arms, you are going to be in such an extreme class, it doesn't really matter, you won't be compative. (don't take that the wrong way, but the cars that you are going to be running against are going to be full on race cars.). If you really want to be competative, your best off with stock peices, and good springs/struts. So you can at least be in a class with cars that are remotely stock.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

She's not planning on being competetive with this car; rather, its to go out and have fun with. It will be used more for club track days and stuff like that than anything else. If she enjoys that (and she has so far), we'll probably be building a bare bones car for that specific purpose.

500/383

Dewey316

Thats the point, i wouldn't worry about trying to make the car handle better, get out there and get seat time. The driver is always the best mod. Shoot for a car that will be tracked (especialy if she is just starting out) I would go with stock parts, just for the durability. Nothing sucks more than going off, and breaking something. With stock parts they will likely survive a few offs, and if you do break it, it isn't costing you much money.

MrDude_1

whoa, whos arms are thoes? updated PA or Profab design? more info?

Zack @ PA

Those are a picture of our current design a-arm. We have been making them for almost a year now.

I would like to clear a few things up guys.

Our old design a arm was never intended for street use or road race use. The a arm was built to serve one purpose and that was for drag race classes where a stock style front suspension (factory location coil spring) was all that was allowed.

In this situation we are going to send the customer a new set of chromoly a-arms to resolve the situation @ our expense. We have sold literally thousands of sets of these a arms in the past 5 yrs and have honestly not had more than 3-4 sets have any problems. It was found to be a flaw in the tubing itself and not the welding process.

I read earlier in this post about someone claiming that PA Racing mixes mild steel and chromoly in part construction... there is no truth to that and if someone has a question on welding please notify us asap. Someone even said we mig weld our chromoly?! Also not true at all we have some of the best welders in the industry and if this was not true we would not be known for what we are today. We tig weld all of our chromoly and the majority our mild steel. We tig weld more of our parts that ANY company that builds these parts and we take pride in keeping ours the highest quality available on the market. There are a lot of members of this board that use our products and have had great success with them.

I would also like to bring up the fact that PA Racing and Pro Fab Racing are two different companies and have been that way for a couple years now and often guys that have had problems have had problems with the other party. Anyone with questions or concerns can contact Pa Racing or myself for more info.

I would also like to say that it is unfortunate that when a high profile user has a problem with a companies product, instead of contacting the company to resolve the problem (and giving them time to resolve it), they begin posting negatively about the manufacturer without even giving them a chance to resolve the issue at hand. Had we been given a sufficient time to fix the problem, we would have made it right on the items @ fault. I personally have never seen a company with better customer service than we have here.

KiLLJ0Y

iTrader: (1)

raif is going to auto cross her car??? with all the Neon, Ugly wheels, horrible lights, and other lame pieces on it???

damn you're a brave girl..

chomp

That's good to hear. And to be honest, I didn't know there was a difference between profab and PA racing. I'll be looking to buy a K-member, A-arms, and LCA's in the next week so I'll definitely be giving you a call.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

In those applications there is a finite duty cycle for these parts before they get junked, they get regularly inspected before EVERY use, they are designed totally differently, they are built differently out of different materials, and finally, a smooth track and a 1500lb car is significantly different then a bumpy, pothole ridden street in a 4000LB car (and don’t tell me that your car is 3xxx… add a full tank of gas, trunk full of BS and 1-2 friends and you’ve got 4K in the lightest street going f-body).

Yes, a tubular LCA can be built that is both stiffer and more durable then the stock stamped steel ones (look at the a-arms that are used on some of the chevy trucks and similar applications), but they won’t look anything like that one and will most likely be heavier then a stock arm.

AM91Camaro_RS

v6 cars are significantly lighter than v8 cars, here. i haven't had my car on scales so i can't say exactly how much it weighs but, some people on the v6 board are weighing in around 2900-3000, without gutting the interior, thanks. as for my car, the trunk doesn't get loaded with junk and i rarely have more than one other person in there with me.

i mentioned nascar running tube suspension....those cars weigh well over 3k lbs, not 1500. but, i do understand that those pieces get inspected regularly and replaced often. lets just give up on this arguement, okay??

RTFC

Well tell me something Zack since you posted the above comment. How many people that have bought this same design A-arm from you are still running around on them with NO F*CKING CLUE as to the potential life threatening problem that happened here to Shannon. I would like to see proof on your part that you are sending out warnings to those previous customers to check their cars right now forthis same potential faliure.

If it doesn't come out here, you my friend are certainly not going to be telling others of the hazard- you'll be hiding that to yourself.

I have a friend that has your arms on his car that are just like the ones that broke,.I am not going to disclose his name. If it weren't for this post and me telling him he still would have no idea. I am not going to tell you his name. I will in fact keep this post updated as to when if ever he recieves a warning letter from you to check the product he bought from you for possible defects. Better start sending those letters- to everyone.

Yes I have had the same happen fto me on another vehicle from another aftermarket A-arm, AND YES, You pissed me off with the above commemt

Kat

iTrader: (4)

What gets me is where the crack began on the tube. Rght where the weld started. That tells me two things, one, the wleder had too much heat in the tube, therefore making it brittle and easier to snap and two, they mig welded 4130. Just by looking at how the tube broke, it is more or less a clean break. MS will bend and distort before it snaps like that. Thats why I just said that they mig'ed 4130.

Then again I don't know a thing so dont listen to me.

Kat

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Why were they redesigned? Too many broken ones? Shouldn't you properly engineer and test your designs first before inflicting them on the buying public? Shouldn't you contact past customers and replace the arms or offer a refund before someone ELSE has a failure? Good customer service my a$$!!!

If that was the case, why isn't that stated in the product description on your website? It seems your enthusiasm for selling as many low quality suspension components to whomever will buy them is far more important to you than the lives and property of your customers and those around them. When these a-arms were ordered, no one asked if they were going on a street car. Besides, I would think that anything that would handle the impact after a bumper-dragging launch (as seen on your website) could handle a little careful street driving on smooth roads. I do see that you have added a disclaimer on a seperate page of your website (it wasn't there when we placed the order over a year ago), but that wouldn't help you much in court. Something to think about.

What are the odds that I know about more than half of them? What are the odds that BOTH arms on this car failed? Maybe you guys should start testing your tubing and the finished product, before your negligence kills someone.


Really? Its also "unfortunate" when an a-arm fails while driving across a bridge in a high traffic area, just before turning onto a busy interstate. If it HAD failed on the interstate, she likely wouldn't be here to post anything about the failure of your shoddy product. Notice she didn't post your name in the topic, nor was the topic put in the vendor/product review board...she merely posted to gather information, as anyone has a right to do. If you think some effort has been made to bash your product, you sadly underestimate both of us. You would be dealing with dozens of message boards and e-mail lists, not just one post in the suspension section here. I suggest you "make this right" now, or suffer the consequences.
You speak of your great customer service, but when Shannon called to inform your company what happened, she was told to send the parts back and you would make a determination. No apology, no anything...not even a call tag to pick the parts up. My attorney advised against sending the parts back without gathering some information first, and deciding on an appropriate course of action. Personally, I would like to avoid legal complications, how about you? All you have to do is reimburse her in full for the cost of the parts, the towing bill, and the labor...about $600 total...and a LOT of hassle will be avoided. You can reach her at redraif@yahoo.com.

nyytrousboy

Guys this will be my first and last post on this matter no need to bash Zach he was just posting some facts and info. If you wish to bash start with me ,I own Pa Racing. As for the the post from Kat I can assure you that there are NO arms made here in my building that are mig welded 4130, or let alone any a-arm that is mig welded period. All of our arms here are tig welded 100% of the time( it's been this was since day one). I'm not here to flame or get a bunch of BS started i'm here posting to figure out a problem and resolve it. I'm a busy guy and this isn't what I choose to do while @ work.
As for redraif(in which I still don't have a real name or phone number for), anytime there is a problem with any part our company policy is send pictures or parts to us to inspect and resolve the issue. First thing needed is a invoice showing when and where the parts was made/bought ( I get this alot believe it or not that say they have our parts but really come to find out they do not) second is you need to contact myself before anything will ever be settled on a problem @ Pa Racing not our sales staff (this was never done). Also posting problems on the net before anything is resolved isn't a very fair way to get things handled (atleast not in my book) so don't be upset if things are not handled as you would like them.

As for the main posting here is the arms @ fault we have had a problem with the old design(maybe 5 sets) in the past year that had come back with a problem (note the new design was made after the first one was returned) there is not a problem with every a-arm designed that way (there was just a batch of 10 or so that was made with this material by an outside source in Streator IL) that is the reason alot of buyers have not been sent anything (some have though from our records there was only eight sent out and of those eight seven was to shops that resold them) I can say if anyone feels there arms are unsafe send them back and get them exchanged (I've did this since I've started Pa Racing on any part I make. I've even exchanged for parts that were not made by myself with no hassle or questions) but keep in mind almost every other problem I've had and resolved I've delt with the customer before it's got to this point.

Another thing is the disclaimer has been on my web site since day one and it wasn't just added not that this any big thing (they don't do squat in court, I've been there before and it was with redraifs new suspension company choice but thats a whole new can of worms).

As for the testing the parts and not selling them as parts to be driven on the street cars. Last I checked the parts on most likely 95% of your cars are in the same boat, very few aftermarket parts are DOT approved (reason this is very costly) almost any part you bolt on your car is this way it's your chance/risk your taking when you decide to modify your DOT approved car/truck. We made this type of arm from 98-01 on just customers race cars we built and ran. Once i seen others wanted them (we never had the plan to sell them in mass production from the first day) with that being said we ran them on several cars not one being slower than a 8 sec 3200lb car with no failure's. Also if the arms were ever purchased from myself and you were talking to me I also said and still say I wouldn't run this arm on a true street car unless very few miles were planned.

This is all I have time to post on the matter if anyone would like further info e-mail me @ Jason@paracing.com or call the shop @ 877-550-8400 ask for myself if i'm not available leave a name and number to be reached and I will return it as I get the time.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

You'll be receiving a call tomorrow.

BretD 88GTA

Uh, this disclaimer has been on the PA Racing Web site for quite a while:

----------------------------------------
PA Racing Disclaimer

Use of this Product is acceptance of seller's disclaimer of warranty

The purchaser is responsible for inspections before installing products. Neither the seller nor PA Racing Inc. will be responsible for any loss or damage or injury from any cause including defects of PA Racing Inc. products. PA Racing Inc. products are NOT D.O.T. approved or intended for street use. Buyer agrees to indemnify and hold Sellers harmless from any claim,action or demand arising out of incident to the buyers installation or use of products purchased from PA Racing Inc.
----------------------------------------

There's a big difference between a car that sees only drag strip duty and car that's driven daily on the street. The street car will put much more stress on the suspension components.

A few years back I had the opportunity to meet with the people Hotchkis Performance and talked with them specifically about tubular A-arms for our cars. The reply I got was that they would not produce such a part.

Their reason being that our front A-arms see very high load/stress levels due to the suspension design. Furthermore, too much R&D would be required to get them D.O.T. approved and this would make them too expensive for the average consumer.

Hotchkis estimated their final cost to the consumer would be around $1200 per set and they wouldn't be abale to sell very many at the price.

RTFC

Regardless of the typical disclaimer posted above-
Everyone has that same disclaimer, It is normal course of business in the aftermarket industry.
What is important is that everyone still buys products from every aftermarket company out there with theis disclaimer and does infact use the products on street cars. It is well known in the car industry that this is the very normal practice. If the company denies such knowledge, they are full of crap and damn well know that thier business profits rely mainly on 95% of their sales going onto a street driven vehicle.

What does matter is when someone such as what just happened with PA Racing using inferior tubing and engineering is they will in fact get bit in the *** if and when something like this happens to a customer. They have now had a significant problem that has bitten them in the *** and their reputation is bad due to there choice of poor quality product failing. I have heard this beforehand about them. This is the "second" such incident I personally have heard. People would be crazy to ever trust them again. They are putting profit above safety and now trying to stand on the disclaimer BS instead of your safety.

I choose to buy from companies that are well known and have never had such life threatening failures regardless of the typical disclaimer.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

If a product isn't appropriate for street use, it should clearly state so on the website or catalog where it is being offered for sale, not hidden in a bunch of legalese on the site. Period. I could care less about a DOT approval, what concerns me is whether or not a part is going to fail or not and cause catastrophic damage to the vehicle or death.

Also, I highly doubt that a mildly lowered car, driven (carefully) on the street, puts more stress on an a-arm than a car doing this (from the PA website):

KiLLJ0Y

iTrader: (1)

umm.. i dont know about you.. but i have never heard of a company with 100% non failure rate of a product..

the disclaimer says it all.. these parts are NOT DOT approved so it IS users discretion..

after all, no one made you buy the product.. no one made you use it on a daily driven car..

if you dont heed the warnings or just think "oh it will be OK" then the user is taking the risk.. we all are every time we "upgrade" something..

did anyone ever think that anyone tested this thing on a daily driven car and tested it for thousands and thousands of miles of daily driven, pot hole streets, speed bumps, taking fast corners and such? if they did they would claim its OK for street use.. but they didnt make that claim because they never tested it for that purpose..

Dean im not against you at all or anyone else on here, and im not putting your opinion down.. im not trying to start an argument or anything...

i just think that the manufacturer does make some valid points, they admit there was a few problems in manufacturing, and have revised things.


on a side note.. just for kicks.. my father works for Northrup/Grumman.. he is/has been the Chief Inspector quality control engineer for commercial and military aircraft for 34 years..

did you know that for the military there needs to be 95.50% success rate for parts passed... and 65.00% success rate for commercial aircraft such as the 747, 737 DC10 ect.?????

think about that next time you board an airplane.. i could go into alot more detail about this subject.. but then im off topic..

BretD 88GTA

First, let me state that I am NOT trying to argue with any one. Just trying to have an informative discussion.

With that said, that is an extreme photo. By-the-way, how the heck does a car do a severe enough wheel-stand that it pulls the rear tires a good 8" off the ground and doesn't flip over or crunch the rear body work?

Anyway, that car is running a coilover drag race suspension. Odds are good those springs are very soft for weight transfer and, as a result, absorb a large portion of the impact.

A lowered street car, with stiff springs and suspension isn't going to absorb impact the same way. The springs will absorb much less of the blow. The force then has to go somewhere and if there is a weakness in the suspension, there's a good chance it will break.

AM91Camaro_RS

just FYI, I have seen a series of pictures from the launch... i can't remember where but, it is real. it actually happened at the 1/4 mile track that i go to.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

You know, it’s really striking when the “resident pro” somewhere doesn’t really seem to have a clue… First, that looks nothing like a piece of broken 4130 and “too much heat” has little to do with why that broke there. 4130 or 10xx, too much heat would have resulted in a completely different looking break.



I think that a lot of people are misunderstanding this, and this is a good and a bad thing WRT to your product. The point is that you got some inferior steel, which was weaker and that is why the arm broke like that, not that there was a problem with that particular the material in that spot on both arms.

The fact is that getting a hold of some inferior product is not that uncommon, and I’m not sure that in most cases there is an easy way to differentiate (I don’t know exactly what the problem is, but in many cases the steel could look externally identical and still be inferior). That’s the good side. The bad side is that it also very clearly points out a design that puts too much stress in one area. That suggests that under harder use even when made out of the proper material you still have a design problem and it will most likely break in the same location.



Now this is the part that just sucks. The fact is that we have a clear case where the customer is doing something contrary to the manufacturor’s recommended use, and everyone is jumping all over the manufacturer for “screwing up.” Well, She decided to run these parts in a way that they were not intended, and guess what, is replacing them with a new set of parts that will again be misused.

I can see it coming already and I’ve heard of it in germany and some other countries, where all parts put on a car that will be in operation on the road will have to be DOT certified (or their equivalent). For the most part that actually results in nothing but making for another set of govt positions and one more source of unnecessary cost/drain on the system. The parts don’t end up significantly better since govt agencies rarely hire people that _really_ understand what to look for, but end up costing MUCH more because of the extra testing and hassle involved.

The end result is that the consumer (us) ends up paying much more if we want _anything_ and have to deal with much more government regulation/hassle to do anything at all to their car and destroys loads of small businesses.

I just hope that no matter how this turns out (and I mean even if PA totally blows her off), Shannon has the good sense not to sue for what essentially is her own fault, since in the long run the only people that it could possibly benefit is her and the lawyers at the rest of our expense.

If someone is “dumb enough” (not exactly the right words or connotation) to use the products on the street it’s their own problem, and in a perfect world it will stay that way.

This is one of the reasons why I repeatedly recommend against most people changing over to whatever aftermarket suspension piece if the stock part can be made to work. If you look at the stock parts they are designed in a way that even if you could put this kind of strain on the part there isn’t one thin section or critical section that could or is at all likely to just let go. The stock parts may flex, and in extreme cases of abuse may bend, but they rarely break unless abused way beyond the call of duty.

For example (and I only chose this one because they're 'here" and are often used as an example of "superior" aftermarket suspension parts) Spohn may overbuild their products (and I _still_ argue in a lot of cases under engineer), but the fact is that a rod end or any threaded end can break and let go as can a single tube…, where the factory bushings are inserted through the actual structure that is pivoted and even if the bushing falls apart it still doesn’t go anywhere.

If you’re building a race car where saving a few oz here and there and some marginal stiffness changes will help, the go for it, but if you’re building a street car, then forget it or understand that you’re taking your own life in your hands.

RTFC

The sh*t broke.. end of subject.

I don't care what excuses they have or anyone else is giving them.

Build a part for a racecar, whatever, it should not break, it should be built never to break. If you are compromising design strength for lightness, you are wrong. Period!

redraif

Clear case of me using a product in a way not intended....well I gues someone should have spoke up!

Direct from PA website:

"Expert Assistance: PA Racing is available to discuss your application to help you choose the right parts, the first time out. If you require assistance with your application, please contact us via e-mail or call our tech line at 812-524-7177"

Well I guess the experts need to listen more carfully when someone calls to say they are buying parts for a street driven car that will see "regular driving". A car that is both lowered and had suspension upgrades. That the car will be autocrossed and drag raced some. We even asked about the k member for my less uncommon v-6 application. I was told I should use mild steel, for street use. Assured the set with the spring perches would be fine & "safe" for my application. Never was I told PA racing products were only intened for drag race use only. So I then thought about it saved my $ and ordered them online.

Oh and about me doing it all over again with someone else... AJE is building a road race set up so that it will be strong enough for daily use!

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

If PA had told her the parts were unsafe on the street, or that there was ANY risk of failure, they wouldn't be on the car. If there had been any warning (not for street use, drag only, etc) on the page where the parts are offered for sale, they wouldn't be on the car. This is her (and my) first experience with a suspension part of ANY kind breaking other than in a collision, and I have been doing this stuff for over 20 years. If a part is drag race only, say so...anything else is just decepetion, to try to sell more parts. PA had plenty of opportunity to prevent the sale, if proper use of the parts was a concern; apparently their only concern was geting another $300. A similar disclaimer to the one PA has on a seperate page can be found on the sites or in the catalogs of nearly every company that makes an aftermarket product, everything from carburetors to chrome valve covers. When it comes to suspension, brakes, tires, etc...critical safety components...the manufacturer has a DUTY to make it abundantly clear to the consumer the risk involved in using the product. I'm no suspension engineer (guess the guys at PA aren't either!), and relied on the "expertise" of the manufacturer.
I hate government regulation as much or more than probably anyone here (I work in one of the most highly regulated industries in the country), and I am all for government (and lawyers) staying out of our day to day lives. I also believe that anyone making a product that is critical for safety reasons should explicitly spell out exactly what uses it is and isn't intended for, and that in a case like this (no matter what it is used for), the manufacturer has a responsibility to build the safest part possible. If you don't have the expertise to design and build the parts, and the resources to make sure your parts are safe for the intended purpose (I sure as hell wouldn't put this junk on a drag car, seeing how easily it failed), then maybe you should find another line of work.
Shannon has offered an easy and quick solution to the problem; it is now up to the manufacturer to do the right thing. If they don't...well, it will cost them a lot more than $600. Whatever they choose to do, I hope they will at least start informing their customers of their products' "intended use". How many of the cars on this site with PA products are used exclusively on the drag strip? I would bet fewer than 10%.

Dewey316

I would still be hesitant. Even though it is intended for RR use, doesn't mean it will be strong enough for daily use. Daily use is VERY hard on parts.

I'm not going to jump on board and bash manufactures, or bash your descision for running a part. But, be aware, that if you are building a car that has parts designed for racing, you need to treat them as such. Which includes regular inspections. Most racing parts are designed for a specific purpose, not an infinate lifespan for a street driven cars. There are very few race tracks on the planet that have potholes and other obsticals of that sort that you encounter when driving. The parts are not designed to take the regular impacts that those things put on suspension parts. Road racing parts are goign to be designed to handle lateral flexing and lateral loading better, I bet they are not designed or tested to take 1,000,000 spring oscilations, and impacts from things like pot-holes.

Just my $0.02, and something I hope you think about. As kewl as all the tubular aftermarket parts are, when you modify a car like this, you need to treat it as such, and be prepared for things like this to go wrong. It is your descision to make, most of these aftermarket parts are going to actualy fail if something goes wrong. Just as Mark pointed out in his post, the stock parts are designed to bend and flex, but not fail. Tubular aftermarket parts put a premium on rigidity and wieght (that is why people buy them), but when it break, its not just going to bend, it will actualy break.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Yes, mild steel is probably better for daily use.

Yes, they probably will build something sturdier then what you had.

But still, it is not a dot approved part and most likely (and I’m not a lawyer here) it is not technically legal for street use and should not be represented as such. For that matter, even if it was, there is still the standard disclaimer about performance parts (basically “speed parts get beat on and when it comes down to it there is no real guarantee or warranty of anything unless we’re feeling nice about it,” but rephrased in legalese).

I’m not saying this to pick on you or anything of the sort… I agree with you, that part should have never been built that way. I am saying what I already said, if you want to be safe (both in the technical sense and in the legal sense) about this then go back to stock parts. If you stay with aftermarket then understand that there are inherent risks and understand that YOU are taking those risks, the manufacturer of the parts is not, they’ve already stated that the parts are not intended for street use.

redraif

I would say it is unfortunate you see it this way. I would say this post of yours did more to hurt your customer service rep then anything I could or wouild have said. And I did contact PA, you seemed to miss that post. You need to read thru all my posts! Did I feel much concern from PA about my well being or my cars...no. Was I asked if we were ok...no. I told you all we were lucky everything was ok. No sorry! No here is a call tag to return the product. No I got the impression that I was not believed. Like it was thought I was at fault for the break. I was simply told to box up the units & send them back and PA would look at and determine. This left me concerned...

See I'm no metal or chassis expert. I could have mailed these off and been told anything. And simply mailing the broken part away to someone who has nothing vested in my interests or well being, w/o doing my own investigation would have been short sided. Anyone would agree with this statement. I would think a consumer is allowed to ask questions when something fails, get an education to protect themselves, w/o fear of being told they were posting negatively about the manufacturer. You obviously did not really read thru my posts well, as I did not post negatively about PA. Maybe others did, but I started this thread without PA mentioned in the heading. I did not come out of the box trashing PA... just posted what I found and my concerns about what I found. I did not post this in a high profile area. I posted it where I felt I could get the best information from others to explain the problem! See this site is meant for infomation gathering. This is how I used it! I simply posted this too see what others had experienced and what their opinion was of the failure! If anything I was giving PA the benifit of the doubt here. I wanted to be able to approach the situation with an education. If the part failed due to my car or to the part. Was it a fluke, or was it common place. To send PA the parts knowing what truely happened and giving them the chance to make it right based on the failure. I see nothing wrong with this line of reasoning.
See you speak of me being a high profile user. Well I guess you need to get to know this high profile user better. Well with that in mind...anyone who knows me on this site knows I never do or say malicious things. I have a rep for being the one who handles things rationally and tactfully, even when the situation would allow for me to be ugly. This is exactly how I have handled the situation here. I have reread thru my posts and I have seen nothing here that was detrimental or that negative. Worst I have said is that in light of what I have found I would not feel comfortable running the product again. And since this diclaimer thing is being tossed around, I would think that PA would not feel I should use the product again. And yes I said I felt the K-member looks weak in some key areas, but I did not post the k-member pics. I just commented on what I saw. Trust me if I wanted to go after you in a negative light this small thread is not what would have happened.

And in fact if you had simply had paitence yourself, you would have seen a nice resolution to the whole problem would have been posted as well. So all could see your true customer service.

redraif

Well considering the car is effectively being retired after this from normal everyday street use. It will still be driven on the street to shows and such. Yes it will be autocrossed, dragged some, and possibly played with on a road course (no competion) Getting it appraised and getting real (show car) insurance on it. I hope this will be less of an issue in the future!

redraif

Well mine with full truck of stereo & tools, me, Joe and full tank of gas on scales is under 4000#s. Thats all that is the most ever in the car.

Well I think the point now is even if it was not intended for street use it was sold to me full known that was how it was going to be used. Their site even says stronger & lighter. Its the stronger I saw and believed. Lighter I could care less!

redraif

Go try and start something someplace else!

Dewey316

Originally posted by KiLLJ0Y
raif is going to auto cross her car??? with all the Neon, Ugly wheels, horrible lights, and other lame pieces on it???

damn you're a brave girl..

I run CP with full interior and subs in the back.

Go have fun raif. getting to drive your car like that, is worth it. no one will laugh you off the course, if you have fun, and show that you are there to learn to drive your car better, and listen to the advice of the people who know what they are doing.

redraif

As for my real name and number...How many girls have called about failed a-arms the first week of June? I never called...bull crap. not this is infuriorating! I believe I spoke with Nathan, he said you and he were the one in charge of the company and who I needed to address. I assume it was not you cause surely you would remember the girl who called with the red f-body show car that had the break prior to the hwy ramp. I tried to leave him my name and number, but I guess he did not take them down. I was told to remove the product and mail both sides back, before anything would be discussed. To mail my contact info in a note with the product along with my concerns and they would be addressed at that time. Someone would get back with me. That PA had to insepct the part before any dialog about compensation would be addressed! This along with the lack of concern over my well being was highly alarming and the main reason I decided to investigate this myself and have the arms inspected by someone impartial. So it is you customer service that pushed me to feel I needed to protect myself first and formost, cause I did not feel the company had my best interest at heart. And you know to this point in this thread I had not mentioned all this, but you are now bad mouthing & threating me to not address my problem in a fair fashion because I used this resourse (tgo) to investigate the failure. Now that is juvenile.

Quote:

As for the main posting here is the arms @ fault we have had a problem with the old design(maybe 5 sets) in the past year that had come back with a problem (note the new design was made after the first one was returned) there is not a problem with every a-arm designed that way (there was just a batch of 10 or so that was made with this material by an outside source in Streator IL) that is the reason alot of buyers have not been sent anything (some have though from our records there was only eight sent out and of those eight seven was to shops that resold them) I can say if anyone feels there arms are unsafe send them back and get them exchanged (I've did this since I've started Pa Racing on any part I make. I've even exchanged for parts that were not made by myself with no hassle or questions) but keep in mind almost every other problem I've had and resolved I've delt with the customer before it's got to this point.

The point is I tried and was given the cold shoulder and treated like I did not matter. It took time to get the parts off the car to even be able to send them in to you. And it amazes me that gathering good information & investigating a failure myself is considered a problem. Why? I have the right as a comsumer to have inpartial parties give me an opinion w/o being threatened that my concerns will not be address becasue of it!

I had been told by one of your venders prior to contacting PA that PA left him holding the bag when a similar failure occured, but wiped out the kids whole frontend! That the whole thing was blamed on a bad batch of a-arms. Well I bought directly from you. Holding the credit card statement in my hand. I was not informed of the bad part when you had my info as having brought the product directly from you. I was not supposed to be concerned by that?

Quote:

Also if the arms were ever purchased from myself and you were talking to me I also said and still say I wouldn't run this arm on a true street car unless very few miles were planned.

Well I spoke with your staff. I did not know that I ahd to speak with you directly to get teh true skinny on whether or not the part would work for my application. It does not say that on the quote from your site I outline in an above post!

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This is all I have time to post on the matter if anyone would like further info e-mail me @ Jason@paracing.com or call the shop @ 877-550-8400 ask for myself if i'm not available leave a name and number to be reached and I will return it as I get the time.

I will be calling you. I hope that accusatory finger pointing at me can be put aside for our conversation as I did nothing wrong by investigating the failure. Again I could ahve run all over trashing your product. Don't undermine my resoursefulness. And as you other employee mentioned, I am a high profile person on this site and could ahve taken advantage of that, but I choose not to!

redraif

Message left for you Jason!

redraif

Better pics are up now! Yes the pixelation does make a huge difference! Still arranging them though!

RTFC

Shannon, If you send those things to him make sure the package is sent through "Certified mail" otherwise they may disappear forever. Make them sign for the returned parts so you have it documented they received them.

You have already documemted the evidence with pictures and have your reciept.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

At one point Redraif was going to bring the part to someone to inspect. I'm curious what the result of the inspection is?

I'm running PROFAB k-member and a-arms. I think the design is pretty lame. Had to bang the **** out of one tube because the tie rod was digging into it. A rackmount ripped off the bottom tube and tore it, requiring me to patch and mig it. (can't wait for that to break), the motor mounts flex way too much.

Tomorrow i'm gonna have the car aligned. I'm wondering if these k-members are dead center on the car.


Now, to be fair though. Both PROFAB, and pa-racing says these parts are for off-road race use only. I understand some of you are in the opinion that "it should never break". Well, your entitled to your opinion, no matter how irrational.

FACT: parts do break, and the mfg of both parts state its not for street use. I, like Redraif didnt read this until AFTER the parts were installed, but I'm not about to blame profab or paracing.

Now, redraif made a statement about AJE building her a setup that was going to be very strong, etc, etc. How do you know? Becaue another member told you so? 50 other members told me the profab/pa k-member was the best thing in the world. Don't ASSume anything in life.

Another bad statement. About the Spohn stuff. I have some spohn stuff on my car. Although perhaps slightly better made than profab/pa, the LCA's are still stress cracking on my car. And in terms of support. I've called Steve in the past, and asked him questions about stuff (when they actually answered). Fact is, the customer service is about the same from vern, jason, or steve, and they all score about the same on the *******-o-meter.

Although, Jason seemed about 50% smarter than both vern or steve,

-- Joe

fb305svs

wow.... what a bunch of meat heads...

Listen, fact of the matter that disclaimer HAS been on the pa site for years, i remember looking up suspensnion parts for the front of my car, i remember reading that and saying, oh maybe i shouldn't. and i didnt.

Secondly, they have no place on her car to begin with. They offer no improvement over the stock pieces aside from having new joints and bushing in them. If she was smart she would have boxed the originals in and put new bushings and ball joints in.

I'm just glad that there are still some people around who try and keep the BS from being spread down to a minimal level...

My only beef here is why PA wasn't contacted *before* any of this was posted... total BS, and a very immature way to handle things. Yes, i've been reading all of this, but it obvious either the phone conversations were weak or never took palce at all until after the post, or the customer service really did suck. In all honesty, i think that you called, didn't get the response you wanted to hear and posted it anyways. i understand the concern you have, but you should have asked all these questions about the a arms before you bought the. If there is one thing i have learned never rely on the sales guy to tell you what you really need to know. People who have bought those arms knew they weren't meant for the duty cycle that street and daily driving bring. All this has done has caused a huge **** fest, over again, a car that is controvetial at best in the looks department.

If anything it should have been posted as a warning to others, after it was resolved, and that there off road use arm was at rick, rather than a bash fest making everyone look like a ****in fool.

fb305svs

right - ur a very well known person on this site and many others - but i wouldn't say you have much "pull" seems how most people totally disagree with your concept of what you think looks good. Your more well known for what you've done to your car than anythign else...

RTFC

You are a moron aren't you?

Did you see that this quote was taken from the PA rep?

This post is great info for anyone on these boards so they do not buy A-arms from PA racing just as you state would be best, and we all agree, so whats your beef meathead?

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

You're the first real meathead to post.

If your reading comprehension was a little better, maybe you'd understand what has already been stated. I'm not going to repeat it for your benefit, as you probably wouldn't understand it anyway.

That was not your decision to make. If at anytime when looking up the parts,or calling to ask questions about this and other products, we were told they were unsafe for street use, they would not have been ordered. The originals already had new bushings and balljoints, and according to PA's own site their arms were stronger than stock. If they had been made with the material PA normally used, by PA, I don't beleive it would have been an issue.

You're the only one spreading BS here.

What should you be beefed about? This post had nothing to do with you. Get over it. PA was contacted, and frankly she was blown off. She was told that the a-arms would be fine for her application, because it was a concern.Having worked in the parts industry, I know its hard to provide good service to every customer (try finding qualified people with good customer service skills, its not easy), and the important thing is that PA's owner has stepped in and apparently feels that there was a legitimate problem with the particular set of a-arms she received, and is working with her to correct the problem. He isn't blaming her or her judgement for the problem, and neither should you.


Ah, the REAL issue! You don't like the car. The great news is, you don't have to. If you don't want to hear about her car, don't click on topics she posts. Easy.

The post was to gather information, and find out the opinions of people who may have had issues with the same part. The purpose wasn't to warn others, it was to gather information. Fortunately, it did have the effect of bringing the whole situation to the owner's attention, and he is resolving the matter. If we just wanted to bash a manufacturer, there would have been a far greater effort than this. Had it been handled as he is handling it now, there wouldn't have been a post, except maybe to recognize good customer service. Neither of us hold a grudge over that, and would still do business with PA in the future.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

She was quoting Jason at PA, 'tard...not trying to act like she's anybody special. As far as your other comments, well, agreed not everyone likes her car, but the vast majority of comments and recognition she gets for it is positive. Keep your eyes open, you'll be seeing more of her car soon...thanks to people whose opinions mean far more than yours!

KiLLJ0Y

iTrader: (1)

nothing is indestructable... things break... look at the spaceshuttle.. NASA has all the money it needs, the best techs in the world.. and their parts fail..

Good parts will fail at some point.. otherwise there would be no crashes in NHRA or NASCAR do you think those guys use cheap parts? i think not..

redraif

Well... mailing the part will not even be necessary. Jason took a look at my pics and dug in his records when he got my name. He actually remembered me buying the arms from him directly, esp when he saw I was from GA. (He has raced down at my local 1/4 track in the past!) He confirmed that I did in fact receive one of the a-arms from the bad batch he mentioned above. He was having some work done off site and was not able to watch this other companies every step. They either got some bad steel, or used the wrong guage steel. As a result, the arms I mentioned above (Hawks) and mine and a few others have broken in the exact same place. The steel this other place used could not hold up to the weigh & stess, again due to the wrong or inferior product they used. Jason had some of the other broken sets checked and confirmed the error in the steel. Since mine is of the same batch he knows this was the problem with them as well. So mine don't need to be shipped back!

As a result, PA's parts work is now only done in house & the design has been reinforced further. In fact, after the conversation I had with Jason, I can't see having a problem using his products in the future! In fact, I was discussing the 82 by the end of the conversation! I believe, if the right steel had been used on my set, my car would have been able to use them sucessfully even on the street. In fact in our conversation when we were discussing replacement there was no mention of street use being unsafe for my application, nor that I misused the product. So I feel, he feels my failure was only due to the bad steel, and not misuse of the product! Since I went ahead and ordered the AJE set, I opted for a reinbursement, but after our talk, I would have felt confident in a replacement piece.

If you have any issues or questions about the products PA sells, do yourself a favor and speak to Jason directly the first time. He is in and out alot training his people, but its worth the wait. Now all this confusion and hard feelings would have been avoided if the gentleman on the phone, when I called the first time back when this thread started, would have actually taken my number & passed it on to Jason as I asked. Then this thread would have simply been the arm broke here is why and now look at how well Jason handled it!

But at least thru all this there is still a Happy ending! In the end the fact that my set was used on the street was not the reason it broke at all. (So the disclaimer for street use debate can be laid to rest!) The parts were bad and would have broken in any event.

redraif

Funny thing...they bent the a-arms when the landed from this launch!

redraif

I stated in a previous post the Chassis guy and the metalergist (sp) both said the break occured because of fatigue. Most likely due to bad steel or to small of a gauge steel for the application (which in my case was exactly the problem per PA!) Again the company he brokered these few sets out to used inferior sized or bad steel tubing!

Quote:

Now, to be fair though. Both PROFAB, and pa-racing says these parts are for off-road race use only. I understand some of you are in the opinion that "it should never break". Well, your entitled to your opinion, no matter how irrational.

FACT: parts do break, and the mfg of both parts state its not for street use. I, like Redraif didnt read this until AFTER the parts were installed, but I'm not about to blame profab or paracing.

But again my problem was not due to misuse as it turns out, so my right to point fingers was valid. But I feel it would be prudent for the parts venders to place this disclaimer in all parts decriptions, not on some other page you are not guarenteed to see! And again I also called prior to the purchase and was assured the part would be fine for my application. Though I did not speak with Jason directly.

Quote:

Now, redraif made a statement about AJE building her a setup that was going to be very strong, etc, etc. How do you know? Becaue another member told you so? 50 other members told me the profab/pa k-member was the best thing in the world. Don't ASSume anything in life.

My AJE set is supposed to be stronger becasue it is being built for Road racing specifically! They add extra braces adn supports to allow for the extra stress a car sees on the road in turns and hills versus just a straight line down the track!

Again my confidence in PA has been reassured seeing as how mine failed due to a bad steel application, not the parts design itself. Again if the right stuff had been used, neither Jason or I believe there would have been a problem at all!

redraif

Good for you! It was not in the discription and to be sure I called first. Their disclaimer or concerns over me using the parts on the street was never addressed when it was mentioned to them!

Quote:

Secondly, they have no place on her car to begin with. They offer no improvement over the stock pieces aside from having new joints and bushing in them. If she was smart she would have boxed the originals in and put new bushings and ball joints in.

No place on my car... like you ahve a clue what my car needs! Guess you should brush up on your suspension tech. As it was even mentioned in this thread, they offer stiffness, as the stock piece even boxed, flexes. In fact, with the stockers back on, the car does not feel as secure and tight on the road as it did! I even added new joints & bushings to my old stockers before the tubular upgrade.

Quote:

My only beef here is why PA wasn't contacted *before* any of this was posted... total BS, and a very immature way to handle things. Yes, i've been reading all of this, but it obvious either the phone conversations were weak or never took palce at all until after the post, or the customer service really did suck. In all honesty, i think that you called, didn't get the response you wanted to hear and posted it anyways. i understand the concern you have, but you should have asked all these questions about the a arms before you bought the. If there is one thing i have learned never rely on the sales guy to tell you what you really need to know. People who have bought those arms knew they weren't meant for the duty cycle that street and daily driving bring. All this has done has caused a huge **** fest, over again, a car that is controvetial at best in the looks department.

Well that reading you said you did... you need to do it again! As I ahve since stated...I wanted to leave my info to ahve Jason contact me, but the gentleman on the phone was not interested in doing it that way. So What could I do if Jason was not avail and he would not take a message! Has nothing to do with not getting what I wanted. I simply posted here as I stated above as a way to get some answers as to why. Was it my supposed Misuse of the product, was it a fluke, was there a bad batch. When I culd not get those answers from the manufacturer, I choose to do my own research! There is noththing wrong or in poor taste with doing that. You know what Jason said he did with the ones that fail...see if there are any other failures, how they occured, have the tubing thickness inspected and have the part analized by a metalergist (sp)... just what I did! HMMM WOW! So I took the appropriate steps to determine my problem, by getting all the avail information I could.

And I did ask before I bought them...again READ! Not my fault the guy on the phone was answered questions he was not qualified to answer. He should have forwarded me to someone else!

Actually if anything it will make people ask the question more and assume less. If that is what it brngs, good, maybe it will keep someone else from having a part fail and get hurt! In my case it was a fluke of a bad part, with bad steel, per Jason... you all have turned this around to lynch me for using the part. All I have proven is if it was a good part from the start it would have been fine and never failed!

Quote:

If anything it should have been posted as a warning to others, after it was resolved, and that there off road use arm was at rick, rather than a bash fest making everyone look like a ****in fool.

But again this does nothing to give me an answer as to possibly why. That was the question...WHY... I never trashed them or said its a horrible product blah, blah! THAT is what would have been inappropriate

Well maybe you should read the posts in this thread before you reply! Seems you have a tons out of context...and you are calling us meat heads! I was called by someone else a "high profile" user. I was simply responding to that in like!

And as far as people only knowing me for what I've done. They also know, whether it is to their taste or not, it has been made in a high quality fashion. You should read more and ASSUME less! I have helped with alot alot of tech and get emails daily asking for advise and help. So again YOU may not like the car, but your opinion is not everyones! People do respect me for what I know and have accomplished.