Epsilon2k

I have been looking at the kits because of the other people I have seen on here that really liked them.

The question I have is about the kit.

Is this the kit I want? Or should I buy the front and rears seperately?

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

I'm planning on getting the trans crossmember kit too.

Looking to order it today! Only three weeks before class is out and I wont have shop access for a while.

I searched but I suck at it. I apologize for any offense in raising a new thread that has probably been covered about a bajillion times.

rv1890

iTrader: (3)

I was looking into the same thing. I dont know why Energy calls that a complete kit. You may want to add the rear sway bar end links, and the front and rear sway bar bushings also . If you look at the prothane complete kit on Spohns website u will see that he has the actual full complete kit for these cars. I thinks he gets the prothane complete kit, and adds even more to it. Its like 180 bucks I think.
http://www.spohn.net/product.cfm?productid=1366

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

the complete kit doesnt have everything iknow that for a fact, i never bought the kit but to do all the bushings at once would be one hell ova job, since the front control arms have to be taken off to press in the new ones etc. ive been doin them with watever i upgrade. its simplier that way, dont forget to measure all ur swaybars so u kno the right sizes etc. there is a huge diff though in ride quality soooo much better, but be prepared for the squeeks! and u should prob get a tub of there formula5 grease or a grease gun etc.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

did you buy them yet? i have a 3.18131G brand new in the box, they are black here sitting in front of me. i was going to use them on my own car but i have so many aftermarket pieces with the bushings already i don't need the kit. if your interested let me know.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

haha thats wat i was afraid of lol KANDIED91Z! when ever u upgrade they come with bushings. its just easier doing them one by one, idk about price differences tho

Epsilon2k

Cancelled. >.<

Wadebryant

Nice that all of the parts come in kit form. You could always purchase the same parts seperately at most auto parts stores. I wouldnt purchase the kit myself because it also includes the bushings for the rear control arms that are flimsy anyway. A good start is to replace the sway bar bushings and end links. Those are usually bad by now or if they're rubber, you'll notice an improvement when you install the poly replacements. Do the other stuff as you rebuild your suspension and then you may decide to upgrade those components as well.

Good luck

dennis teichera

Any special reason you have your heart set on Energy Suspension peices.

Epsilon2k

It's what I put into my truck when I did my drop, and I have heard good things from here and the few other forums I lurk in.

I wouldn't say my heart was set, but the price didn't hurt too much either. I'll only sacrifice groceries for a week.

dennis teichera

Fair enough, a lot of folks complain about the squeaking and to be honest rubber bushings perform better. The only advantage is the longevity is a little better with poly; ASSuming you only base life on actual deterioration.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

i had both the upper & lower Energy Suspension A-arm bushings on my car for a good number of years. my car did handle better with them & even with around 100,000 miles on them they were still in good shape, they did squeak quite loud. i got tired of the noise & went back to standard bushings.
they also make for a little rougher ride. im still running the poly sway bar bushing.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

dennis teichera?! u have no idea wat ur talking about! rubber bushings perform better?!? are u retarted, poly pushings are a performance peice, they dont flex under pressure and dont compress like rubber, not to mention stiffen up ur ride, allow harder driving in the corners and in the straight line, less defection in the poly allows less drivtrain loss, increased responsivness, not to mention that they are impurvious to road salt,ozone, oil, gas basically they are amazing. and they dont deteriorate that means that ur rubber bushings are CRAP!!!!! especially after a lifetime of about 4 years verses the poly bushings life of 14 and above. the only downside to poly is the squeeks which can be controled by proper lubrication (and greasable fittings), and a rougher/firmer ride. poly bushings are for a performance minded driver and there pluses far outweigh the only 2 negative statements. a brand new rubber bushing cant even outperform a 10-12 year old poly. and by getting the graphic impregnated poly bushings otherwise known as the color black it reduces the squeeks compared to the color non graphite poly. its people like u who give false information bc they have no idea wat they are talking about and this gives amazing products a bad name or negative feedback and change the person who was thinking about the products to buy a diff product based of information that can only be described as stupidity. get the poly bushings if u want better handling and a better longer lasting performance bushing(allthe things above), be prepared for a slightly rougher ride and perhaps squeeks unless u grease them properly....upgrading to poly bushings results in performance u can actually feel, its amazing how well this bushings perform!

"stupidity...its better to keep you mouth shut than to open it and remove all doubt"

Epsilon2k

A lil harsh but with Poly in my truck for two years now . I never knew the black was quieter than the red though.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

yea they say the black is graphite impregnated and it helps limit the noise created by the poly... the reason why its only used in the black is bc the graphite has a dark tint to it so by adding it to the red/yellow etc it would give them a gray tint and obscure the whole point of getting a colored poly bushing. sry about the harshness i just hate ppl who think they kno wat there talking about especially to make such a stupid remark that rubber outperforms poly lol idiot

dennis teichera

Quote:

Originally Posted by customblackbird

dennis teichera?! u have no idea wat

I didn't bother quoting the entire text as it was giving me a headache to read the first time already, and you are going to call me retarded (you might try at least spelling the word correctly if you want to throw it out there)? Try learning the English language please.

Now to put this back on track, Polyurethane by nature has many qualities that in some suspension application work well; stabilizer bar pivots are one, engine and transmission mounts are another. Control arms be it front or rear are NOT an ideal location for Polyurethane. Polyurethane has a several properties which make it unsuitable in these applications; in front arms the cold flow properties inherent to Urethane make the bushings set in oval position over time which actually increases deflection depending on the position of the arm when the fore/aft forces are placed against it. In rear applications the Urethane which resists all articulation causes the link to bind as they try to "bend" around their arc of movement.

Polygraphite is not a suitable substance for eliminating the squeak as the Graphite is not compatible with the Urethane. The graphite will break down the Urethane over time (contrary to popular belief Urethane is NOT impervious to all chemical compounds).

Rubber on the other hand, while is susceptible to weathering and wear over time will at least maintain its shape and until excessively worn will provide a firm anchored position for the arm to pivot on.

I strongly suggest in the future blackbird you try educating yourself before starting an argument you can't possibly win. If you want to continue I'll send my 6 year old in my place, at least that way it would be a fair contest.

Gallileo60

You will like it, I just did the kit in mine (And all the extra's needed) Made a world of difference......I kinda like the harsher ride...Dont get me wrong I would'nt want to go cross country in my ride (I could) but for me its not that kinda car...Makes it ALOT more fun to drive...So much more predictable...Really shines when you stop in a hurry....Tom

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

sorry i thought that by speaking like a retard that u would understand me.and im sure ur 6 yrold has more common sense than u and would prob do a better job. and i didnt know that i was being graded on my spelling/grammar!? altho it seems as if u know wat ur talking about with the cold flow properites of poly etc blah blah.... call up energy suspension and talk to the tech group and YES the black poly bushings contain GRAPHITE!! so why would they put it in the the bushing if its just gona cause it to fail....hmm weird maybe bc it doesnt affect the poly. and i never said it was a cure for the squeeks just that the graphite helps with the squeeks. as far as the control arms not being suitable for the front control arms/rear LCA's, panhard rod just furthers my arguement that u are a retard. these are the points of most pressure/twisting that the car encounters while cornering/braking/accelerating... so why do all the aftermarket peices come with them already installed?!?....im not even gona bother getting into detail with all the specifics bc POLY IS A PERFORMANCE BUSHING!!!!! factory cars come with wat?....RUBBERRRRRRRR as for comfort bc thats wat the factory wants wit the new cars, an UPGRADE would be POLY!!!!! ask any person who knows anything about performance suspension or people who take great care in how there car handles and performs and i guarentee that they will all agree that poly is a better performance bushing. yes inthe rear control arms there is binding with poly bushings but people dont downgrade to rubber bushings bc of that lol, most will either add solid bushings or spherical rod ends. i love how ur saying rubber bushings are better when 5 ppl on this thread alone say that the poly bushings has given them better performance. so wat exactly is ur arguement when ur the only one who believes that rubber is better. all suspension upgrades use poly, all hotrods use poly, race cars/track cars use poly i guess theyre all wrong.....correct? a softer bushing can NOT out perform a stiffer bushing. why dont u take a poll on who has put poly on there car and goes back to rubber bc they didnt get a performance gain, and then say who believes their poly netted them more performance. and let everyone else do the talking. i would hate for just me to prove u wrong and make u look like an ***.

Gallileo60

Hmmm...Dennis seems to be smarter than you thought.......BTW, i have not had the noise issues yet, but my car does ride like a farm truck...(A fast, good hadling farm truck) I recommend 10 mg's Valium twice a day....

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

dennis, i have to ask, have you ever ran poly bushing on any of your cars?

my A-arm bushings had little to no distortion when i removed them. thinking about it, i probably had close to 160~170,000 miles on mine, maybe more. i ran them for around 10 years. the rubber bushings i have in my car right now clearly show some distortion & are only about 3~4 years old & have around 50~60,000 miles on them. i used silicone brake grease to lube the polys which helped with the noise for maybe 1000 miles after lubing, if they had stayed quite for 3~4000 miles after greasing i would still have them. just before i took the polys out, my car handled much better at speed than what the rubbers do, even when they were brand new.
other than noise, polys out perform rubber on the front any day of the week. when i replace the current bushings, i may go back with polys & just live with the noise.

i don't know how well the polys work in the rear, i never put them on my car.

dennis teichera

I'll tell you what, you come out to the track with for the day and we'll look around in the paddock and see who runs what (that is actually not going to happen because I would never been seen with you and you wouldn't be allowed at any track I run at). You would find that anyone running a fairly consistent time is either running a Delrin/Teflon composite or maybe rubber. Some of the real fast guys are just using Heims but those get real noisy.

Yeah, let me call the guys who make a product they are trying to sell and ask them if it really works. Hey, you want to buy a Tornado- the builders claim it works great!

As to Urethane applications, any application where there is no twisting or bending motion or suspension load bearing on the component is a suitable application. BTW, most PHB builders use Heims not Polyurethane.

I realize you are 22 and know everything, I did too. Someday when you grow up you will look back on these posts and realize that not only do you not have a clue what you are talking about and you simply re-word manufactures claims to make yourself sound somewhat knowledgeable but you also sound like an idiot.

Guest

Can you put some timeframes on this? I've had them for quite some time so it would be interesting to take a look next time I have my car apart. I did not notice anything last time when I dropped the whole arm to replace my front springs since the ball joint was resisting separating from the spindle, and I did take a look at them.

If they are squeaking, tighten up the bolt. I have no squeaks, never have.

dennis teichera

Quote:

Originally Posted by DENN_SHAH

dennis, i have to ask, have you ever ran poly bushing on any of your cars?I have run just about everything including some simply solid steel pivots.

The biggest problem is most people try to "fix" an ailment by covering it up with increased roll stiffness achieved improperly. Just because you reduce roll doesn't mean your car handles better.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

dennis, "Based on what, your extensive track experience and knowledge of what truly great handling cars feel like or how fast you can take the local freeway on-ramp?"
"I wish I had the resources to volunteer and set your chassis up for you so can see how great a properly set up chassis with rubber bushings can feel."
those are smart *** replies, you don't know me or know what cars i have driven, & you seem to act as though i know nothing about cars, your remarks were unwarranted.
am i to take it you want your car to handle just like a NASCAR, im i right in thinking that? thats not how i want my car to handle, at least not on the street, i prefer my car to be more neutral.

im not worried so much about roll stiffness, where it is at right now is fine, if i was i would have installed bigger/stiffer sway bars, better springs & better shocks.
the only track i have ever had my car on is a quarter or eight mile, freeway on-ramps have nothing to do with it, or does going from 35 to 70 MPH getting on the freeway have some significance to you?
i drive my car everyday on normal roads, my car is not a race car, nor do not want it to be one.

its not uncommon to drive 100 MPH on the open highways here in Texas & get passed by old women. you can ask Fast355, he runs up around 80 to stay with the flow of traffic up in Dallas.
my car with rubber bushings is nervous at speed, it wasn't with the polys. in everyday, real life driving conditions, the polys work better than rubbers do. i believe Epsilon2k is looking for something better on the street, not the race track.
like you said to someone else but slightly changed, Someday when you grow up you will look back on these posts and realize that not everyone wants what you want.

dennis teichera

Sorry DENN, I took your post as a stab so I responded in kind.

Honestly, street or track makes no difference except to accurately gauge improvements. My last ride was basically NASCAR- all solid mounts, Heims, Teflon, 1100# springs, 2" of travel etc... and I drove it everyday on the street; it rode nicer than 80% of the cars out there. Usually the guys who bitch about ride and harshness are guys running poly throughout and stiff springs/wrong shocks. Properly done you can have a zero deflection suspension that still rides acceptable.

If you were experiencing unsettling at higher speeds and the only change was to install Poly bushings I honestly think you perceive a change because you "want" to, not because there actually is one. The LCA bushings, unless totally missing wouldn't cause that type of sensation.

Epsilon2k

You guys realize I just wanted to know if I was selecting the right kit?

I had no idea I was going to start a thread that would turn into a pissing match.

Shame on you.

brutalform

I agree. If one more comment is made other than what the thread is about, its getting locked.

customblackbird, you have a PM!!

dennis teichera

Yeah I just wanted to know if this question was after thorough research or you were fishing for different opinions.

Gallileo60

Buy the kit, then all the little extras...Mine did not come with everything.Tom

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

sorry Epsilon2k & Mods.

no problem dennis, its cool
looking at my first post to you, i can see it starts off looking like a dig, sorry, it wasn't, i was just wondering.

my car is fine in turns, its the dead ahead straight driving at high speeds where you barely move the steering wheel that has the problem.
i used the term nervous because thats what it feels like to me. if you have ever been at speed on most any honda 250 made during the 80s on deep loose sand with some hard pack chop mixed in, you know what im taking about when i say its nervous, its stable but the bike feels like it may swap sideways on you at any moment.
its the only thing i don't like about my car. i replaced all 4 shocks & all the bushings front & rear not long after i bought it, that helped some. i put the poly sway bar bushings in at the same time.
doing the upper & lower A-arm bushings a few years later with poly made a huge difference, the car was comfortable at 90~100+.
i had thought it may have been just me thinking there was an improvement in handling with the polys, but other people who had driven my car who had no ideal i changed anything noticed it was much better. one guy i used to hunt with wouldn't drive my car much over 70, with the polys he had it over 110 & was amazed that just bushings made that much difference. the last time we went hunting was right after i put rubbers back in, when he got behind the wheel he noticed the difference in handling by the time we got to 60.
on the rougher ride, most people never noticed any difference, everyone noticed it when it had been a while sense the last time i lubed the bushings.
i think you can see why i believe Epsilon2k would like them, he does after all have a better handling car to start with than i do.

BTW, i doubt Heims would last me very long. i am hard on my car, i don't do maintenance like most people do, if it wears out or breaks, i replace it, if it needs grease, i'll do it next time i change my oil, if i remember to

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

There is some truth in that the harder urethane could potentially cause problems. In the A-arms, LCAs, and such, the elastomer itself is what actually allows the joint to pivot. Both the outer portion of the elastomer bushing as well as the sleeve are fixed and not allowed to move. In the poly bushings, they may be too stiff to allow the joint to pivot using the elastomer alone, hence the squeaking. On the flip side, though, rubber distorts and dry rots over time and gets sloppy.

Epsilon2k

As a follow up I did get the kit installed and fixed an minor issue of two busted bolts on the trans crossmember that had been poorly repaired. (wedged a bolt and nut in at a precarious angle. WTF? )
Also replaced the steering from balljoint to balljoint.

I am very satisfied. If I was worried about a lil squeaking, (which it does do) I would have bought a lexus. I hear they are very quiet inside.

The "SQUEEEEK of DOOOOOM" Lets others know to remove themselves from my path!