Here's a strange problem I have with the iroc..

I replaced every single part in the front end of the car except the K-member. My driver's side wheel sticks out farther than the fender and farther than the rear driver's side wheel. The passenger side wheel is pushed more inside the wheel well. Both sides rubs on the plastic fender lining in the front.

I have recently installed:
-Ed Miller's LS1 front brake swap with modified spindles
-UMI A-Arms
-UMI adjustable tie rod sleeves
-Moog IROC replacement springs (raised the car a ton higher than older saggy springs)
-New front spring insolators

I did two alignments at different places in the last week. First one costed 50$, second costed 90$ but was done at a more modern, high tech place. Nobody could get it aligned properly because the strut mounts didn't want to go farther than what was necessary. Weird...

Any idea on what could be causing this wierd wheel alignment / rubbing?

Thanks!
-Marc

 

im guessing the forth gen insulators, but im no expert, i ruined a strut mount today

 

Lets look at basics-

Did you have this problem before you replaced the A-arms? One side sticking out further than the other with stock A-arms? If not, Then its the new A-arms thats the problem.

Or- maybe you put on "front" IROC wheel on one side and one "rear" Iroc wheel on the other front side. I highly doubt this though- I would think you would know fronts and rears are different offsets since they are clearly labeled.

Now to the alignment and problems with the camber adjustments- First, if the a-arms are shorter than stock for any reason as stated in my first paragraph, then your spindle geometry is off because the lower arms are not long enough to keep the proper spindle angle (IA or Included angle). This shows a final result of a lack of negative camber AS WELL as the IA's are not able to be kept equal because the SAI can not be set equal within the chassis design specs- This is a control arm length problem.

Anyone remeber that wonderful post where UMI started argueing at me about slandering them? Well- where the hell are they now to answer this poor guys post? I have kept quite purposely for your first post "BIG ALIGNMENT PROBLEM" waiting for them to chime in and offer help or advice since youy labeled you used UMI a-arms.

SO- In COnclusion, Its either your car already had this problem with stock arms, or the problem developed after you installed UMI arms. Was the car ever bent in an accident/ We need more info.

Dean

 

Here is your other post "Alignment Big Problem"
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...g-problem.html

From that post I get your specs:
The specs I have on my car are this (in degrees):
FRONT LEFT CAMBER: 0.54
FRONT LEFT CASTER: 3.0
FRONT LEFT TOE: 0.12
FRONT LEFT SAI: 24.6
FRONT LEFT INCLUDED ANGLE: 25.0

FRONT RIGHT CAMBER: 1.0
FRONT RIGHT CASTER: 2.8
FRONT RIGHT TOE: 0.12
FRONT RIGHT SAI: 22.2
FRONT RIGHT INCLUDED ANGLE: 23.3

Cambers are both positive. They should be able to adjust at the very lest to negative 0.5
The fact that they are both maxed out and yet still positive ON BOTH SIDES tells me the K-member is not pushed over drastically from any accident- because if it were then one side would read negative at maxed camber setting and the other side still read positive- So Kmember being out of wack is highly unlikely with the specs you listed. Result? A- arms were made too short.

Caster is off also- You should always have about 0.5* MORE on the passenger side so that tire leads. This lead will cause a VERY slight pull to the left on a flat road- however, public roads are engineered with a crown so right side travel always makes a car swerve towards the right. This slight lead makes a car track straight on a crowned road.

TOE- is good

SAI- needs to be equal, otherwise the car will pull towards the greater side even at lower speeds. The SAI affects the scrub radius as well as offset does too. The SAI line drawn to the ground measured the center tire contact line determines the "Scrub Radius" This is basically controlled on our cars where the strut mounts to the spindle with those two large bolts Scrub radius should always be close to equal. There is a little play there, but not much. Generally here with IA readings being off, it is a result of improper alignment- however, if the adjustment of maxed out, the componant is at fault (in this case the A-arm is too short to get the IA correct because camber adjustment is maxed. A longer A-arm geometry would allow for proper IA through camber adjustment- We are not talking massive race car specs, just simple factory alignment specs- This is WHY I state that most aftermarket parts manufacturers have NO CLUE when it comes to what they are making- I ask the question, "then Why is the UMI arms better than factory, Or Spohns arms, Or PA's arms Etc?"---well, Spohn has a great arm with adjusters, It out of all the aftermarket arms I see is the ONLY aftermarket A-arm I would buy. I would not even buy any of his other ones, Just this one. It is the only arm made with good all around aftermarket provisions for street and race alignment spec provisions to correct any of even the tiniest flaws in a factory chassis geometry pertaining to IA, SAI, and setback especially in extreme racing specs where drastic negative camber is wanted. http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...ing-Boxes.html

Back now tot he SAI, Since the left side is greter in SAI readings and pulling to the left as a result, the alignment tech adjusted a bandaid fix of this pulling by decreasing the right side Caster.

Anyone here golf?

Well if you do and know about golf club IA and length, its the same basic principle used to fit you with a proper club to get you ball going straight.

Dean

ps- I don't golf

 

One more fact on SAI
Why does a greater SAI cause a car to pull to that side?

The SAI angle cause a car to lift when the steering wheel is turned towards that side because of the angle of inclination of the pivot. The greater the angle, the more it lifts.
NOW- as a byproduct of that lift, this is what causes a steering wheel to want to recenter itself out of a turn. More caster is more lift ALSO, thus resulting in greater centering upon release of the wheel. Caster a car track straighter- especially at higher speeds, but makes the turn in harder with effort to turn the car. More SAI is NOT more caster though. SAI is factory engineered and is designed in a certain range of angle so as to have a calculated "scrub radius" This is what affects a car under thrust if FWD and braking charateristics for both FWD and RWD cars- it gets a little more complicated but just not necessary to go further eith this discusion right now on scrub radius positive and negativce other than FWD cars favor negative scrub radius.

SOOOO- When one side of the car has a greater SAI than the other side, when back at neutral steer trying to go straight the greater SAI side will still be wanting to center itself more than the lesser SAI side thus causing a pull to the greater SAI side and the car wil veer to that side going down the road.

 

Now that SAI has been described, I will point out a second problem with the car. Yes there are two problems, not just the control arm length, but also a problem with when the strut was bolted to the spindle- Remember those two large bolts I spoke of earlier? Thats right, they are also a problem.

Look again at the SAI readings This is the angle of the strut shaft measured to the spindle shaft- they are different by 2.4* Good ol' GM tolerances combined with lack of assembly knowledge most likely caused this to get so far out of wack.
A good alignment tech would have loosened and tried to adjust these on both sides to get the SAI's equal since you proibably had them bolted together in reversed pressure torquing of the bolts. One side torqued positve direction, the other torqued negative direction becasue of the direction of the bolts inserted. I would first try to leesen the greater one from 24.6* down to match the other side at 23.5*. That would alone bring your camber negative on that side and reduce it from a +.54* camber to a -.56* camber and the other up from 22.2 to 23.5 SAI and bring the right camber from +1.0 to a -.30

Camber result at max is still only -.56 L and -.30 R averaging only a -.43 max negative camber.

Conclusion? This reajustment still is not enough for substantial camber gain, longer control arms plus SAI corrections are BOTH needed for any kind of performance gain. You should be able to get a maximum of at least -.70 on both sides of a performace street car. I get that with my factory arms easily. I run -.80 and -.84 L/R camber. I would think a performance arm would let you yeild at least -2.0 if engineered right, but there goes that topic of fabricators lacking geometry knowledge when making parts. Then combine this with lazy or unknowledgable alignment techs and you have a resulting post like this. Sucks when you pay "experts" fro such incompertances, happens unfortunately to lots of people every day.

Dean

 

Thanks so much for the massive info on this topic... IF this is true then UMI should refund my money AND the shipping... I don't mind sending the product back to them. I will contact them soon.

So, I spent something like 7-800$ for parts, alignment, labor... and now i have to pay to reverse all of that, AND add another product all over again? Wow what a catastrophe this has become...

I will definitely get to the bottom of this.
thank you

 

do you still have the old parts? Before you start taking things apart, maybe take a couple minutes and get some measurements of the new and old arms and see if they are longer/shorter, if things are as off and you make it sound, it should be quite apparent when you measure I find it hard to believe that both arms would be built wrong, considering nobody else here has had an issue with them, myself included. That doesnt mean its not possible, but im curious

********
WTF? half of my post disappeared?

 

okay... where should i measure from? The extremities, or from bushing to bushing? Balljoint to bushing? Etc?

I did keep everything, old spindles as well... which seemed to be in good shape.

On a side note, do Racecraft 2" Drop spindles work with Ed Miller's LS1 brake kit? After installing these MOOG springs it's fairly clear that i'm going to have to drop it...

Also, what about those UMI tie rod adjuster sleeves? Maybe they are the cause of some of the problems I am having?? (popping/grinding noise?)

I will get the measurements asap and post em.

thanks,
-marc

 

teh adjusters are not going to move the wheels in and out, but if they are bottomed out before you reach teh proper settings, the alignment will be off and the car will jump/drag wheels when turning.

I would measure from the a-arm mounting bushings to the balljoint, that would give you a rough length, and like i said, it will be quite obvious is something is wrong with the new arms. Maybe from the center of the bolt in the k-member pocket to the center of the balljoint cup.

here is a though, is the entire wheel out further, or just the front or back of the wheels, like the wheel is turned or soemthing?

 

Hold your horses and answer the questions first,
I asked if the car was like this with the wheel offset issue BEFORE you installed the A-arms.

Before you just accusse them of something wrong. make sure it is not your fault in someway first.

"I" merely stated questions,THEN gave you facts on what to look for, and LASTLY explained through YOUR #'s why I think if those are correct and factual from you that UMI could engineer a better geometry into their "performance arms" And before anyone ridicules me for saying "performance arms" and claim they are a direct replacement for factory stuff, then answer why a replacement is needed because the factory arm does just fine for regular non performance use. I personally feel if its an aftermarket "perfprmance" product then it should have some USEFUL performance value engineered into it other than just plain ol factory specs, Am I wrong to assume that for my hard earned dollar?

Anyways, you need to first back that the arm is the problm of the offset or not. If not them thy are at very least just a standard fancy looking replacement of stock geometry you just replaced, They may be slightly lighter in weight, but if they are unfavorable geometry then I would rather use a stamped one heavier with better geometry over a lighter one with poor camber enhancement.
make sure you have knowledge and factual data before you blame things. I am simply giving you knowledge to ascess if you have a problem, my answer is based on your data being correct.

 

Thank you for your help. I was simply judging based on what you had stated.

That is why I had said "IF this is true...". So if it is indeed UMI's a-arms the problem, then I would have done what I had said, which was simply try to get refunded for the product "IF" it was faulty.

I also stated that, "I will definitely get to the bottom of this.". And I will. I will find out if it's the mechanic who installed them, the modified spindles, the a-arms, etc etc.

And I will start off by measuring everything tonight (the a-arms, as stated in previous posts..)

I really appreciate the help you guys have given me, but I don't want anyone to think I am quick to judge or hating on UMI... Cuz I don't... I have tons of their products and are happy with them...

I will keep you guys updated on what I find out... I'll do my best to measure everything as accurate as possible..

Thanks!
-Marc

 

It does drag a bit when turning... New noise i've never had before... How can I fix this?

I will get every measurement possible... From bushing to bushing... bushing to ball joint... and the actual extremities of the metal from the tip of the A to the two bottoms of the A. (That should cover it?)

It seems as though the entire wheel is pushed forward when turning only though... When the wheels are straight everything is in the middle.. Here is an example:

When i turn wheel all the way to the left:
the driver's wheel is rubbing on the BACK of the plastic liner
the passenger's wheel is rubbing on the FRONT of the plastic liner

When i turn the wheel all the way to the right:
the driver's wheel is rubbing on the FRONT of the plastic liner
the passenger's wheel is rubbing on the BACK of the plastic liner

More observations... BUT the fact that the driver's side wheel is pushed farther out than the passenger wheel still boggles my mind..

Thanks,
-Marc

 

Marc, that's a big difference from what you claimed in your other post "alignment big problems"where you said it was hitting the inner fender wall on both sides and one side was also hitting the headers and swaybar.

Now you say its hitting front and rear, not the inner wall as if the arms are fine but the brake hub offset is way positive. Do you mean it is hitting the y-pipe, not the headers? You are now describing a more positive scrub radius. Sounds to me your brake parts could be machined different fittment compared to factory specs. I checked Ed's FlyeNBye.com website and there is no mention of what added offset his brake packages affect geometry. I like Ed, but thats a gad deal not to list this info. You get a positive offset mount surface too drastic from stock specs and this will happen as described.

I am now painting a whole different picture of your problems.

What is your front fender height from the ground to center arch? I am not giving you any more advice until you answer this question and give me better facts.

pictures of the car front and sides would tell 1000 words

 

Hey Vetruck,

I appologize for that.. I am pretty sure it is touching very slightly the inside of the fender... The only thing I can do now is take pics of what I am talking about to show you guys...

When I stated that I based it on the fact that there is bare metal on the inside of the fender and the swaybar and the headers show that the tire rubbed at one point... Although very slightly on all of these places. When i turn the wheel all the way and slowly turn into a parking spot, if I am not pressing the gas the wheels will rub on the plastic lining inside the fender at the place I specified in the post above. This results in a loud rubbing noise and the car will actually stop cuz it rubs so much on the plastic liner (and maybe other things, not sure yet). I will have to get under the car and have my GF turn the wheel while i'm underneath looking to see what's going on. Either way, I'll try to get pics tonight.

Thanks,
-Marc

 

to answer Deans question on the brake kit, the kits push the wheels out about 1/3" on each side, the width of the rotor hat area. Since the factory 16x8's are close to begin with, maybe that extra 1/3" makes them rub, but if they rub bad enough to stop the car, there may be more going on here.

I asked the OP in this or the other thread, if the tie rods were take off? is it possible that the shop took the tie rods off the car when they installed the adjusters and have them assembled wrong? like both the inners are on one side of the car, and the outer are on the other side? That would make it impossible to align the car properly, and one wheel would turn further than the other because the tie rods assembly is now shorter, causing the noises and dragging thats happening. Just an idea, could be hogwash.

 

Yeah they did take the tie rods off because they installed the adjusters... in fact most of the front suspension was off because i changed tie rod adjusters, springs, a-arms, and installed ls1 brake kit.

I just called the machanic and he said it is impossible to install two outer tie rods on the same side, and two inner tie rods on the same side... so that is out... i still have to measure the a-arms ... doing that tonight cuz yesterday didn't have time.

The other possible explanation was the hub offset? What is this and how could it affect wheel alignment or position?

Also I will check to see if swapping front wheels will make any difference but i doubt it...

Thnx
-Marc

 

yeah, you know what, im surprised i missed that one, the rods are right hand and left hand thread, so yes there is no way to install them wrong. stupid me.

 

It's all good... I'm going to measure the a-arms now... Be right back..

 

UPDATE: MAY 21st!!!

Okay, I know this took forever but I FINALLY got the alignment sorted out but there's still something funky going on...

Before I post alignment I would like to say that I have installed all of the adjustable pieces I bought: J+M strut mounts, SPOHN strut to spindle kit, bump steer kit, adjustable LCA, adjustable PHB.

I spent 2 and a half hours trying to align the car with the dumbass alignment tech, and thank god I was there otherwise he would have screwed everything up for sure. I have the sheet at home so i'll post specs later tonight, but off the top of my head, what i did manage to get was this:

Camber: -1.0 LEFT/RIGHT
Caster: +4.1LEFT / +4.6 RIGHT

We had to wrestle the strut plates around to get it right, but then the passenger side max out at 0* camber.. while the driver was at -0.8* so he said that's all he could do, but then i said no way get it at -0.7 on both sides which is what i wanted... So i told him i installed Spohn adjustable strut to spindle bolts, he assured me you can't adjust camber from there but he was wrong as he started loosening and tightening and the camber was flying all over the place until we got it at -0.9, in which the car settled at -1.0 when back on the ground... The caster 'apparently' was at its limit but i was satisfied at 4.1 for the left and 4.6 for the right so i let it go. My SAI was not equal on both sides but there's less than 1.0 difference from side to side, same for IA.. They were both around 23-24*. I'll update this thread with exact specs tonight...

Here's the thing: MY DRIVER'S SIDE WHEEL STILL STICKS OUT SOMEWHAT!!! Not as much as before. I took a video of the car before the alignment and after the alignment of what the wheels looked like from the front and from the side. The after looks much better as they are more evenly set and tucked better under the fender well. But it bothers me that the driver's side front wheel sticks out more than the passenger wheel. The mechanic i go to measured control arms, k-member, and said it's all equal on both sides. He can't figure it out. Now that it's aligned I'm going to bring it to him again to see if they can figure it out now that it's aligned properly, he's going to have a body shop guy come in to see if the frame might be bent somewhere... This is makin' me ill..

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ml#post4552453

I replied to the users post in the above thread. But thanks for the post Dean, good to see you are still your same old self

 

have you ever slid into a curb? you may have just bumped the k-member over a little, i think its possible for it to move around from a impact such as that?

I know its a really stuipd question, but you do have the front wheels on the front of the car and the rear wheels on the back? they are different, but im sure you know this.

do you have pictures of the location of the strut mounts? if one or both are maxed out, that could indicate an issues with the frame/k member

 

1)I wrote that last year on Sept 13th 2009.

2)You responded on the other post 2 days later on Sept 15th.

3) Today is May 21, 2010..... what's your prob?

 

it's very possible that something happened before i bought the car in 2006... When i bought the car there might have been something off, as it was always wondering all over the place, so the project started to get everything perfect.. Replaced steering linkage, ball joints, all bushings, end links, poly urethane every where (del sphere bushings in rear), etc etc... It seems like the more I do the worse it gets...

I cleaned the car a few hours ago and took it for a good spin... After replacing many parts, AND getting alignment near perfect, all the problems persist!!!!

The ONLY peice of the puzzle left to replace is the steering box, and I ordered a LEE 670 box two months ago and it should be arriving next week... Once that is installed, everything on the car is new, and adjusted 'properly', apparently.

I hear squeeks when turning the wheel, popping feeling/sounds in the steering wheel, grinding sounds from the front wheels when doing u-turns and the wheel is at full lock, and if i'm slowly coasting in a parking lot while doing a slight curv to the left at 10-15mph i can hear the rear of the car grinding and 'moaning' sorta... I have a brand new (3000 miles) eaton posi with motive 3.73 gears (all brand new!).. Stock axles (could they be causing this in the rear?) and yes the stock wheels with stock size tires are all in their proper places (fronts in the front and rears in the rear).

I'm puzzled... It is possible the k-member shifter over... I looked under the car and there is a part where it looks as if it's pushed towards the driver's side possibly... It's hard to tell though, the car looks PERFECT from the outside! And the mechanics that looked at it didn't seem to notice anything! I will put it on the lift hopefully tomorrow and find a way to measure it, or bring it to a frame shop and see if they can put it on a frame machine to see if they can tell if something is bent...

I dunno i'm just really freakin fed up...

 

ill take pics of the underneath of the car tomorrow ... underneath the front and from the engine bay and post em and hopefully you guys will see somethin i dont..

thanks..

 

with these cars front end geometry, its quite normal for the front wheels to skip and push a bit at really low parking lot speeds when turning sharply, the wider wheels make it worse, its just the way it is. Im sure Dean can elaborate further on that.

as for the k-member, its bolted on, so if it has to be shifted, and nothing is broken, its not a big deal. just a bit or work.

happen to check the steering box area, maybe the frame is cracking there making things move erratically when turning?

steering box shouldn't affect anything other than steering feel

 

The car, at one point maybe two years ago, was at its 'best' state in my opinion, i had great handling, and it felt good, made no weird noises, etc..

For the front wheels, even the stock IROC's are pretty wide, but if it was good and not making these noises at one point, then there has to be a way to fix it then, no? To go back to that point where it was bearable?

I was reading alot about SAI and scrub radius, and it's quite complicated but understandable, seeing everything on the car and remembering what Dean had explained made it alot easier to understand... Still, I do beleive that there is a way to fix this, there has to be.

The K-member is bolted on, in my sig, there's a site it links to with a bunch of pics.. actually i'll just post it here... It's a pic from underneath the car after i installed all of the suspension mods. It was taken last year in september so i'll post new ones with the bump steer kit, camber kit, jm mounts, and recent alignment..

The steering box area looks to be fine.. When the old steering box goes off (it has near 200,000 miles on it) i'll check underneath it for cracks, i was reading up on that, but it's an IROC and its had the wonderbar all its life and a few years back i installed a TDS wonderbar so there was always one on the car.

If the car was in an accident, and the k-member shifted towards the driver's side, pushing the wheel out and the frame is 'bent', then what could i do to fix this? Take everything apart on the front of the car and have a frame shop straighten it?

 

i would doubt the frame is bent, if it was, the car would have been hit pretty hard

any pics of the wheels, how far they are off? pics of the strut towers?

 

that's music to my ears man... I got an iphone recently so i'll post pics from that camera and put em up... it's a bit dark now tho, it's like midnight over here... I'd rather do it in the AM... I'm wakin up super early tomorrow and going to my dad's garage and putting this thing on the lift and i'll get clear pics of everything, and vids too of this thing while the wheels are turning and all that.. Thanks man, have a good night.

-marc

 

thats fine, its midnight here too, gotta sleep, its been a long day

 

I know this is a long shot, but are the wheel bearings new?, adjusted correctly?...I read in another post where you said you heard popping and grinding noises when turning. Those are symptoms of worn wheel bearings.

And if the frame is bent, your SAI would be way out. I will let the expert correct me on this if Im wrong. Swap front wheels, right to left to see if it changes anything.

 

The specs I had on my car before this alignment were this:
FRONT LEFT CAMBER: 0.54
FRONT LEFT CASTER: 3.0
FRONT LEFT TOE: 0.12
FRONT LEFT SAI: 24.6
FRONT LEFT INCLUDED ANGLE: 25.0

FRONT RIGHT CAMBER: 1.0
FRONT RIGHT CASTER: 2.8
FRONT RIGHT TOE: 0.12
FRONT RIGHT SAI: 22.2
FRONT RIGHT INCLUDED ANGLE: 23.3

REAR LEFT CAMBER: -0.5
REAR LEFT TOE: 0.41

REAR RIGHT CAMBER: 0.0
REAR RIGHT TOE: -0.29


The alignment I got two days ago brought my car into these specs with adjustable parts:
FRONT LEFT CAMBER: -1.0
FRONT LEFT CASTER: 4.1
FRONT LEFT TOE: 0.04
FRONT LEFT SAI: 23.5
FRONT LEFT INCLUDED ANGLE: 22.5

FRONT RIGHT CAMBER: -1.0
FRONT RIGHT CASTER: 4.6
FRONT RIGHT TOE: 0.04
FRONT RIGHT SAI: 22.7
FRONT RIGHT INCLUDED ANGLE: 21.7

FRONT TOTAL TOE: 0.08

REAR LEFT CAMBER: -0.4
REAR LEFT TOE: 0.09

REAR RIGHT CAMBER: -0.1
REAR RIGHT TOE: 0.01

REAR TOTAL TOE: 0.10
THRUST ANGLE: 0.04

 

Not sure about the wheel bearings... I thought they came with the LS1 brake kit I bought from Ed Miller???

Not sure if it's adjusted properly but i'll mention that to my mechanic...

I'll try swapping front wheels today to see if that makes a diff..

 

im sure the wheel bearing are fine if they came with a new brake setup from ed.

 

Marc, I have never had one of these cars on turnplates to check the actually Ackerman steering angles, but generally on a car with about 70" track width you would set a car center steered on zero'ed turn plate gauges and then once you turn the car to the left with the front right wheel at 10*, the front left should be at about 12.5*.

Where the problem lies with these cars is when you turn more in a senerio like a u-turn, you are turning clear to full lock and the Ackerman needs to increase more with the tighter the turn. The geometry of the steering looses a gain in ackerman at a certain point past normal drive steering range on the road at speed and it does not increase enogh for the tight low speed u-turns which makes the inner and outer turn radius' fight eachother almost best discribed as a toe-in situation. (NOTE: THe wider the tire contact patch, the more this is effected due to greater grip- 15" wheel cars are narrower wheels and tires and did not show this as much as the wider wheeled IROC's)

These cars are so tricky when it comes to a one size fits all front suspension geometry ecause the GM engineers had it so screwed up between different factory options that things where never correct to begin with. There track width was off. once they fit different brake optins on this changed and they had to try and put factory wheel spacers on the rears to correct things for handling balance. The proof of being one of the only cars to ever go from 15x8" wheels to the sport IROC model and have to us two different front and rear offsets is pretty much a historical boo boo. It is one of the only cars to have ever needed this fron GM mistakes through performance eveolution of this chassis platform. THere were alot of "bandaid fixes" and is why I like this car so much. I know how to fix then and make the chassis work great to "my liking" and "my driving style". I love these cars, especially with the v6 in them being wide flat and light in the nose. like one big lightweight Ferarri/go-kart. The V8's are even fun, but once you've experienced the nibble turn-in of a V6 and its jetfighter response it feels more like a mid engine car that still has good initial turn-in bite. Its just knowing how to ge the contact patch footprint and the turning geometry to keep it consistent. I love a car that makes you take a deep breathe just before you yank the car into set and know that it will bite when it logically feels it won't. Sometimes a breif skip over uneven pavement and then bite and yank is the most blood rushing feel as a car makes you feel for a breif nervous split second its not going to bite then it does. Ahhh addreniline!!!! Alot like trying to anticipate the drop of a amusement park free fall ride.......when will it bite.....yank...(You grunt holding the g force). I am so hard on cars.

A toe in situation at full lock will cause the wheels to press towards eachother and lift the chassis which is why we get that weird lifting and skipping feeling of the wheels in a u-turn. It kind of lifts and bobbles. Suspension peices can sometimes knock if metal touches metal on a jarring bobble like this at low speeds as energy is compressed and released with the bnding of turning radius. Things like swaybar links, or even the swabar can come into contat with the frame of even the tire and make noises.

The SAI changes you made were great, you listened well. It was a matter of loosening the bolts of the strut to the spindle and retorqueing them in the correct "kinked direction"- one side posite camber direction, one side negative camber direction- good job. 0.8 difference is good enough for government work and will never show a pulling difference left to right. Every little bit counts in alignment corrections so as not to get unwanted changes and bandaid fixes. SAI is alot like Caster, if they are off, the car can pull around unwillingly.

It is possible the popping you are getting is also feel in the worn steering box at full lock and bind. The Lee box will help show if that is/was an issue or not real soon.

The issue with the kemeber being shifted or bent can be valid. What you can do is put the car in an even surface and try to mark the ground directly under the suspension pivot points of the a-arms (The mount ear bolts) and then drop a plumb bobble level line from the fender lips to the ground right at center wheel hub. You will need to turn the level two ways to get the floor measurements accurate for a fender measurement marked on the floor exact. hen move the car and measure from the front and rear ear blts of each to the fender lip mark on the left, and on the right. You will have four measurement. The tow front ones on each side should be very close, and the two rears on each side should be very close. If the are off, you know you have bent parts or chassis or both.

Dean

 

UPDATE: Okay... Here we go...

Took the car to the garage to get to the bottom of this.. We put the car on the lift and checked EVERYTHING we could think of. We came to a few conclusions and interesting observations:

1) The squeeking symptom I mentioned earlier; one a-arm bushing on each a-arm is as DRY as the desert. Not one drop of grease! Everything else is greased though, but 1/2 of the a-arm bushings are not, and I didn't have lithium grease on hand but atleast I know what will potentially solve that squeeking during low/mid speed turns (hopefully).

2) I took the steering shaft and was able to wiggle it significantly! It's slightly loose, enough that I can move it up / down. This will be fixed when the new steering box goes in. (Perhaps causing a popping / grinding / loose feel in the steering?)

3) Now to the fun part.... The wheel is sticking out 'probably' because of... *drum roll*
..
..
..
The driver's side wheel hub! Okay, this is an observation more than a definite conclusion, but something is DEFINITELY wrong here. I have pics to show this and will post these. The passenger side hub (from the view of the inside of the rotor) is flush with the rotor, where as the driver's side hub is NOT. It is pushed out what looks to be around 1/3 to 1/2 of an inch. It's hard to tell or measure, it was really tight in there. Oddly enough, after measuring everything else (k-member, a-arms, rotors, hubs, etc. etc.) there seemed to be no other issue other than this, for now. I didn't take off the hub/rotor yet because I want to know everyone's opinion on this. Please check out the pics i'm about to post and let me know your thoughts. On a side note, one of the rotors was chipped and the hubs clearly say "made in China".. These are the hubs that came with the "LS1" brake kit that Ed sold me. One of the guys with me said they look like different ones on each side, but it's hard to tell, all I know is that that driver's side hub is pushed out more than the passenger's side. Check pics:

 

Here are the two pics of the rotors from the inside view.. First pic is the passenger's side which is flush with the rotor, and the second pic is the driver's side which shows the gold colored hub pushed in farther, and NOT flush with the rotor...

 

Here's another observation: The K-member drain holes in this pic look like they are not centered on the car! Here's the thing... The engine might not be the thing centered in this pic because I noticed one mount sits higher than the other one.. Not sure if it's supposed to be this way but i'll try to address this another day. We measured the a-arms and the k-member and everything seems good. Under the hood, I measured from the corner near the brake booster to the corner where the battery is, and vice versa and it gave me the EXACT same measurements to the millimeter! Looks like the frame is straight!

 

More pics... Here are the positions of the J+M strut mounts on the car with the specs I provided above...

 

the engine is not in the center of the car, so those drain holes will look off in comparison

the pic of the passenger hub seems ot be the answer. It would appear that hub is too large to fit in the rotor, and is binding up. that is the problem, and that needs to be addressed. Pull the wheel and the caliper, rotor, and see hwat happening. you may have something stuck between the hub and the rotor, or the hub is a little too big and will need to be touched up with a grinder. Looks to be a machining error with the hubs or rotor

 

And last but not least... As promised Dean, here are measurements of all 4 wheels from floor to the fender (refer to pics for proof):

FRONT Driver: 28.5 inches
FRONT Passenger: 27.9 inches
REAR Driver: 29.1 inches
REAR Passenger: 28.25

These are with NEW MOOG IROC springs (5662 and 5665) with new 4th gen isolators front and rear, so it's probably a bit higher than if I had kept the 3rd gen ones. The springs were installed last summer so they've definitely settled by now. 2" racecraft drop spindles are next on the list with an adjustable torque arm...

 

here are the rear fender height pics...

 

86TA: Do you mean that the passenger hub should be pushed 'OUT' more than it is now? The passenger side is 'flush' with the rotor but the driver's side hub is pushed out more thus making the wheel stick out more... Here is a video of the wheels, driver's side out, passenger side in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzlpRReRTxw

 

Along the lines of what 86TA mentioned, there is something not right with the driver side hub/rotor. Although I can't imagine that the rotor could be pushed out that far off the hub and not rub on the caliper abutment.

You would also have noticed that the wheel studs were too short.

What ever the issue is need to put the front up and pull the wheels/tires. First check that the cast in wheel offset values match.

Then remove and carefully hang the calipers so not to ruin the flex lines. Put a couple of lug nuts back on snug enough to hold the rotor.

Check to see if the rotor is centered in the abutments. Compare everything side-to-side. At this point I can't see the rotor being pushed out as far as shown and not hit the abutment.

The rotor to hub interface can be an issue. The hubs are turned so that they just fit inside of the rotor hat. Can check this by pulling the hub and setting it down inside of the rotor. Basically set the rotor with the outside face down set up on some blocks. Then lower the hub into it.

Even if you find something by this time set the hubs next to each other. Compare the heights. Compare the OD at the rotor interface. Compare how far the bearings sit into the races.

Do the same for the rotors. Compare the inside face to the hat height. Thickness of the hat where the wheel clamps onto it.

RBob.

 

Okay i'll be heading back tomorrow to check this out, i got as far as getting the wheels off and measuring rotors side to side, how far the hub sticks out from the rotor from outside of the rotor on driver and passenger sides. I took pics of the rotors from side to side (driver's side first, passenger side second):

 

Definately a hub to rotor mating problem in offset... thats scary, somethings not fitting correct or is machined wrong. The stud threads should easily reveal a difference from side to side on pass. compared to Drivers side.

 

yeah, didnt completely follow your pics for what side was which

 

as for the rotor hub issue, like Rbob mentioned, i dont see how the hub could be that far off and not rub the abutment? defiantly worth looking into further

 

I posted my last post before I saw these pics come up.

Looking at these two pics the rotor assemblies both look equal in stud threads and mount distance from the strut bolts laterally.

Marc, Are you certain you do not have an IROC "front" on the drivers side and an IROC "rear" wheel on the passenger side?

 

Dean: Pretty sure we measured the stud lengths, but i'll double check that... I'll start taking these parts apart one by one and measure..

86TA: Maybe this is only one part of the problem? In any case, there is definitely an issue with the hub and i'll look into all the things mentioned here for sure.