watajob

iTrader: (29)

I try to do one mod at a time so if it's screwed up, I'll see it right away. In as much as I'll be installing the 4thgen rear sometime in the near future, I figured I'd put the LCA's, panhard bar and relo bar in today as not to muddy the water later. I'm more interested in firming up the "flexible flyer" as much as possible rather than making room for a dual exhaust. It's a UMI bar and relo bar, (the LCA's are BMR's), so it ought to work together. UMI's site also says it will work with with stock and aftermarket bars. However, it's an awfully tight fit, if you look at my pics, although it's kind of hard to tell. The relo bar is used but shows no sign of damage, (that's red fuzz from my shop rag stuck to sticky residue from the tape the seller used). Plus, everything went on butter smooth. No pounding, prying or cursing, so I'm pretty sure everything is OK. Has anybody had any experience with these? Wadd'ya think? The pics on UMI's site shows more room but I'm pretty sure they have the wheels hanging. If not, I don't think it's gonna' work. I'll take it for a ride when it stops raining but it doesn't look too promising. Maybe I could "massage" the relo bar where it's closest to the panhard bar? (More pics below.)

http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...oducts_id=289#

watajob

iTrader: (29)

BTW, for reference, it's about a pinky finger thickness space at the first knuckle.

More pics:

Guest

From the UMI link you posted-

{This panhard bar relocation kit is designed to replace the upper panhard rod support while relocating the lower panhard bar. By doing so, this offers enough room to run up to a 3” true dual exhaust system over the passenger side axle. Supplied with this kit is a new heavy duty upper panhard bar support, CNC machined mounting brackets and all needed grade 10.9 hardware. Relocation kit will work with the factory panhard bar and all aftermarket panhard bars.

Features:
- Upper Panhard Bar Built using 1.250” DOM Tubing
- CNC Machined Mounting Brackets insure Precision Tolerances
- 100% Bolt in Set-Up
- Available Powder Coated Bright Red or Gloss Black

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Car is stock height.

Guest

You're kidding me.


Gawd forbid you lower the car even 1". That relocation kit will cause the Umi panhardbar to rest against the Umi Panhard brace at stagnant height, never the less the contact it will most likely make currently at stock hieght when you take a hard right hand corner.

Lets just screw up suspension geometry for the sake of dual exhaust route clearance.

Why may I ask did you need to lower your rear roll center? Especially also on the chassis side making for a negative articulation split for a starting point. only to yeild a worse split in travel and make imbalance left and right hand cornering charateristics?

watajob

iTrader: (29)

I'm wondering if you took any time to actually read the post and/or have any intentions of trying to solve the problem. If your only wish is to lecture me like I'm a child, please take it somewhere else because at 54, I have no desire to deal with impudent, arrogant trolls such as yourself. kthxbye.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

It looks like it's going to hit. I wouldn't drive it, but would send the pics to UMI to see if they have any input. I contacted them by phone a while back and they were very helpful.

Just my

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Yeah. I sent them an email. Hopefully, they'll get back to me with an answer. Thanks.

UMI Performance

Hello Frank,

We received your e-mail with the information. I am trying to locate your order in our system to see when you purchased it but I am having no luck... can you please supply me who you purchased this item from? Or would it be under a different name.

On a lowered car the relocation kit will sit much closer to the panhard bar however you did mention the car is not lowered, are you sure it has stock height springs.

Please supply me the order information and we can go from there.

Thank you,
Ryan

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

He's trying to tell you that with that kit you've altered the car's rear suspension geometry in a bad way and didn't have any knowledge of doing so (wasn't provided on UMIs site).

Most of the time lowering the roll center of the car is reserved for people trying to gain something in handling and generally requires stiffer rear springs and larger rear bars and a knowledge of how it all works together. If I recall correctly, lowereing the pan hard bar effectively gives the car a a lower rear roll center and therefor gives the car more leverage on the rear suspension. This causes the needs in springs and bars I mentioned before.

Generally, the side to lower the PHB is on the axle side, not the body side as this brace does. Like he said, lowering the body mount side gives a poor starting point for articulation of the suspension not to mention hitting the PHB.

If you are just trying to stiffen up the cars suspension, this bar has little to no benefits that I'm aware of over the stock brace other than being large, black, shiney, and new.

Vettruck comes off harsh, but really knows his stuff.

Guest

You obviously WAY misinterpreted my line of questioning and why I was asking such detailed questions.
They were questions I was seeing if you knew and YES I figured you as well as 99% of others that buy this product under the description UMI gives have no idea the waste of money this product yeilds.

I did not want to say whats wrong, I wanted to "lead you" (like an attorney does) into giving your own answers and realise UMI is manuacturing certain things for our cars that have no engineering. They do not understand some of their own products.

Not the first time this debate has come up. Yet, UMI thinks I am picking on them. I wanted YOU to answer things for yourself and show you as a customer have no idea of their faults.

Sorry to come off harsh, it was not my intent towards you.

Dean

Edit: ps- UMI's site has nothing about product description pertaining to suspension geometry and handling safety. They do not know or understand a vehicles roll dynamics and the fate a product like this yeilds if it is incorrectly made and installed. They do not ask, Nor to they tell the need for the customer to take measurements of panhard split off the ground to consider the parallel articulation of any pandhard drop and thus any ill fated lateral jacking and squating imbalance left to right comparison. The car will oversteer to the left, and understeer to the right.

UMI Performance

I'm not even going to bother

Guest

Because you can't on your own other than what you have learned from me telling you.

Answer this for us. Lets say one of your customers (like watajob) buys this product and bolts it on. lets say his car was just a tad higher (I personally think his springs are older thus the vehicle has dropped a little over the years- nothing drastic, a little) and contact like he sees was not an issue....THEN, in later modifications lets say a year from now, watajob decides to buy lowering springs and install them onto his car?

His panhard split will worsen and the contact will get greater causing your product to bend. Is that safe?

So is you next move to list on the website that if you do this modification it has to be to a stock height car ONLY? Because that in itself is still wrong. This product sould be removed and customers that have already bought it should be notified of any safety concerns. But hey, all you aftermarket manufacturers state clearly that your products are not designed for use on a highway vehicle- even thought you darn well know 99% of your customers use it as such and trust you making safe products.

Guest

Because of geometry, A panhard relocater should be installed first on the axle side with the appropriate calculated adjustment range for split and roll center needs. If this chassis side is then also needed for an extreme race car setup like Jason at Unbalanced engineering has designed (You have a stricking resembalance to his original design of the brackets only) then the chassis side can also be ranged down with higher rate springs for level panhard split and reduction of TQarm length.

UMI Performance

A. We understand suspension geometry, I never said this bar doesn't change the angle of the panhard or roll center.. you just seem to put words in our mouth all the time. If the vehicle is being used for auto cross or road race we do not recommend this bar because of the changes it makes. We are working on a bracket that welds to the drivers side to level the panhard bar with this kit.

B. We enhanced this design awhile ago for additional clearance... this bar is an old bar and even our older bars had more clearance then this one. This bar was purchased used, it could have been altered, damaged, we have no idea. The item was redesigned to fit better on lowered cars, the newer version will allow the bump stops to hit before the upper brace and panhard bar will.

UMI Sales

No Doute Seriously! Last time I checked we pay (Really Really) good money a month to "Advertise our parts" and give tech advice. And putting up with some lawsuit threatening happy dude that is sorry for himself because he got picked last for dodge ball back in grade school. Throws in his .2 cents worth....why because he has 3 stickies on ultimate suspensions....I am really taking this personal because I take pride in what I do! I don't look for someone to take to court! I work for my money and so do our customers. .....And I am no longer going to allow you to talk down on our quality and performance. Seriously dude you have no clue. You talk a good game about you do suspension for race cars or trucks....seriously who cares. Not everyone has the funds for that. I rather have a 9 sec street car than a trailer queen. If you know so much get yourself in the business and see this side of the business. Talk is cheap and I am tired of listening.

I am sorry for offending you! But I am tired of my toes hurting from you stepping on them.

Have a good one!
Brad

Guest

You never said the bar DOES either. You make these post worse by not admitting mistakes.

So does this mean you WOULD recommend this product on a street car daily driver? and not on a race car in a controlled enviroment with safety support around? Even worse on an unsuspecting less skilled driver on surface streets in a panic situation. So Ryan, when WOULD you recommend this produt so I do not get accused of putting words in your mouth?

ok, old bar, new bar.... so why hasn't your website been enhanced with better informed data for the customer. The panhard split is still wrong whether it is old bar or new bar? Website says nothing on that page aboutr a new product in R&D that this product needs to be combined with.

Dude, You are wrong.....PERIOD

Guest

To everyone else reading this-

This is a technical question website open to public debate.

watajob asked a question in a public forum about problems he has with something he has bought and installed.

I have simply given him accurate know;ledge to that product like he is inquiring on. Most of the knowledge I havre given him he was UNAWARE OF

So tell me.....I am wrong for informing watajob?

Should I inform any of you in the future of potential tech question problems? Or should I keep my mouth shut so you never know?

Dean

Guest

Watajob, Can you measure your panhard split for me?

What you need to do is get the car on flat level concrete and stagnant ride height and try to crawl under the car and measure the center bolt height of both panhard mount bolts off the ground.

The difference between them is the split. The chassis side should be if anything slightly higher than the axle side on a daily driver, autox car, or road race car. A circle track car CAN (if other setting allow) be lower on the chassis side, but that is irrelevant here.

Dean

UMI Sales

I am not into having a pissing match with you! I am just saying it is OUR PRODUCT! And if a customer has a problem! they post!....Once again that is why we pay to advertise and give tech advice! By the way do you? And we don't hide anything from our customers. We strive for the best tech advise and service. Last time I checked we are the ones that put our necks out and turns out we are the bad guys. Whats up with that anyways?????? And if they don"t post their problems. They just call in! So can you if you have any other questions or problems with our products give us a call and ask for Brad! I will be more than glad to help.

Thanks Again!
Brad

89_RS

99% of us don't know even half of what you know about suspension. Part of me can't help but think that an aftermarket performance company with a good reputation for high quality would unknowingly build such a bad product (according to you). Hell, BMR had this same item for nearly 2yrs before I ever saw UMI come out with one. As for the Unbalanced Engineering item, according to their website it doesn't exist.

Give it a rest. Yes, not everyone knows all their is to know about suspension. But if I were a betting man, chances are UMI looked into this "problem" long before they started making their own item.

FWIW, I'd rather like UMI, BMR, Spohn or anyone else for that matter to make a tubular panhard support that just replaces the stock one and does nothing else. All I'd want is less weight and the same or greater strength.

If its such a problem to you, go out and open up your very own Thirgen aftermarket shop. Otherwise, offer info, but don't berate both people and vendors.

Guest

It's not a pissing match, They are legitamate questions. Would you please go back up and look at the questions- then answer them? This is a tech forum for asking questions.

{Once again that is why we pay to advertise and give tech advice! By the way do you?}
I do not pay to advertise here so I can't answer questions? Is that your point in this statement?

{And we don't hide anything from our customers. We strive for the best tech advise and service. Last time I checked we are the ones that put our necks out and turns out we are the bad guys. Whats up with that anyways??????}I never said you hide anything, I said you are not educated enough on suspension geometry and dynamics to tell customers everything important pertaining o parts you manufacture. then when good tech advice is given, YOU TRY AND CENSOR THAT (or me in his case)
You have an agemda, that call making money and making a living. Yes, I am all for capitalizm, but when you do it with the proper protection of knowledge and enguineering of your products you choose to make and sell to trusting consumers willing to spend their money to buy a product they are lead to bekieve will make their car better looking, or better braced, or better handling- without compromising any one of the 3 and lessening factory safety.

I do build parts, I have sold parts I have made, I have given away parts I have made. I have also thown out parts that are older and not safe even though I have had friends wanting them for their cars. I will not give things away when I feel they are not safe.

I have a personal tradgity that happened to me this weekend alone based on car incident and something breaking. My father-NOI B*LLSHIT- in in ICU as we speak because a truck suspension broke and it veered accross the road and wiped him out while riding his bicycle- WHats the irony of that partner? He has massive face trama

you wanna **** me off? Why don't I start a witch hunt against you.

Admit you are wrong and move on.

Guest

You just made my point. You trust them and you are still unaware and assume since they make it and they are a big company, they must be safe. I do not know what else to say to a person with your opinion other than good luck.

When a post comes on about BMR, or Unbalanced engineering's products and people ask about it on this tech forum, I will analyze the question and respond as best I morally can with good firm facts.

Guest

I personally think alot of you more newcomers to this website have never seen me post something wrong. Most of you older members have in fact seen me corrected on misinfo and I come back in immediately appologising for that mistake, thank them for correcting my error or lack of knowledge, and willingly admit I made a mistake and I hope no one was hurt by my mistake.

I thimk alot of you newer people think I have an almightly need to be right and the best here and I thuink as a result of that perception alot of you want to see me make a mistake or be wrong, or just think I am arrogant.

Check the archieves, you will see I am humble.

I do here just as I raised my daughter in life. I do not go for the popular vote, I go for the correct answer even if that makes me unpopular.

The problem here lays that most of you do not understand what I am trying to warn you about- is that arrogant to say? no. Do some of you take offense to that statement? yes. Can I help that?no, you just call me arrogant when I am just simply giving info you can't always understand. Some of you have learned to trust me, some of you do not. Its all about reputation and motive. Ask yourself, What motive do I have here other than just giving the best helpful tech advice to people asking?

I know I have a gift or talent when it comes to understanding vehicle dynamics. Not may people do. Is it fair to call me arrogant for tying to share my knowledge for free?

This pissing match between UMI and I dirived from a thread awhile back where I politely warned them about making products they might lack knowledge of its understanding. I was attacked on that thread that I make render unscupulous law suit threats and I am in it for the money. I am lawsuit happy. My words in that thread where twisted and then take out of context to try and deface me my UMI and a few of their clients.

So now here we are a few months later and karma has a funny why of biting them in the arrogant ****.

UMI, why not tell me what here I said is wrong about vehicle dynamics pertaining to your part in question?

{I will probably be censored and maybe even banned because of politics. UMI pays for advertisement here on this now corporate advertisement site. I am just a guy with facts but no money being paid to the site that is now going to aggressively point out all of UMI's mistakes from this point on. It will be fun until I am censored.

89_RS

I'm not saying you're wrong, nor am I saying they are right. The problem here is that most people are like me and don't have the proper understanding of suspension to follow whats going on. However, we do know **** when we see it and we try to find out before hand by reading other reviews of a product and seeing what they thought of it.

Like I said, I can't see them unkowingly building a shitty product. Then again, the flip side to that coin is that only UMI and BMR offer a product like this. That in of itself makes me wary about a product when only 2 companies out of the several that sell items for a Thirdgen are the only ones offering that kind of product. Makes me think that their is a reason why no one else makes that product.

Guest

then I hope you realze my response as a reveiw.

this is where I will again say you are naive to think that way. They....ARE....UNKNOWINGLY...building a product that is problematic in geometry safety.
*Innocent mistake if they are uneducated in suspension dynamics.

On the other hand "if"...they are KNOWINGLY building a product that is problematic (which it is) in geometry safety? This is what is true now that Brad states they do understand suspension geometry so they are purposely building a bad product and do not care about their clients.

They would have been better off admitting they were uneducated on the vehicle dynamic of this product instead of insisting they engineered it appropriately.

I do not trust them to be innovative with new designs like this. They fabricate very well working with metal, its just what they are fabricating the product for its determined use is what is problematic. They now claim they build it knowing this is a problem.

Those are the facts based on this thread. Someone please tell me where I am mistaken from what Brad has said to me?

ps- Wonderful people in this world doing great jobs to society. I lust talked to the Police Dept about my fathers accident on Friday night- they immediately gave me their condolences for my father's death friday night. Witnesses say the police were on scene when my father was transported tot he hospital 2 nights ago. As of 1 hr ago, He is still breathing fine in ICU, yet the police report shows he died 2 nights ago- can you trust even the police anymore to do a job accurately?

RED_DRAGON_85

the thing that i think most people are missing is that the intended use of the product is clearly listed on the website as providing clearance for dual exhaust.
the fact that they make no claims or whatever about the side-effects is slightly disturbing, but the fact remains that they never said it will help performance.

vetruck
let me first say that i am impressed by your knowledge and understanding of suspension dynamics.
without your help a lot of people would be clueless about why their car handles like crap.
BUT
you fail to realize that most people will never reach the potential to even be able to exploit the limits of the stock suspension, let alone a modified one that can approach 1g

does this part cause oversteer: YES
does it create an unsafe handling characteristic: YES
does it matter when the most lateral G's the 54 yr old driver will likely experience is 0.3G: NO

i understand your concern.
BMR and UMI should list the side effects of the relocation bars.
they should also sell the bars as a kit with at least a weld on axle relocation brace, and ideally an adjustable PHB
but, if not, thats their game.
again, the bar is only intended to create room for exhaust.
no intentions are made about its handling characteristics.

personally, i think that it should be listed that it will create undesirable handling in a stock height or lowered car and that an axle relocation bracket is needed to correct this.
i am not disputing this fact.
what i am saying is that if they dont, and god forbid something bad happens, it is wholly their fault, and they will have no choice but to pay.

i would expect that they add a warning on the website.
UMI has my respect as a company for their quick responses to my questions and low prices.
if they continue to ignore this problem then i will be dissapointed

Guest

Red Dragon, respectfully I will say you are incorrect of a 54yr old ability to acheive 1g.
It is not about what you achieve, its about the balance of the car when you breach its lateral grip as well as the suffering of safety when that lateral grip is decreased from factory specs.
Mute point, but this does not only cause oversteer, it mostly causes understeeer but with the split defect it causes an imbalance in feel and predictabilty when comparing left to right cornering hold.

Here's the problem. You are 16 yrs old, you are 75 yrs old, you are male or female. You are traveling down the highway at 65mph when an emegency occurs just ahead of you and you need to swerve to avoid something in the road. factory lateral g lets say is .83 and the car has a slight push, oversteer. You yank the wheel left in a panic and the car momentarily goes straight and then responds left balnced sliding slightly towards the front tires locking and the car responding left with rear traction and a momentary loss of traction on the front breaching .83g with a yank of .95g's. = result. It lost traction ands a slight delay of response but it did still veer enough to the left to avoid the object in the road and not cause the car to *** end around thus spinning and hitting something else.

example to we added just this device to get a bigger exhaust and more power in the engine (better noise for cuise spots, whatever..point is, the car is still driven the same normal habits as it did prior to this panhard brace and relocation kit with true duals) Left hand turn may now yeild rather than a .83, it is now a . 78 smoothly. But when yanked, it jacks with lateral force to the left raising the Rear roll center to a .92 on the front and asses around the rear and the car spins.
It feels tight til you yank the wheel in a panic- then you are in trouble.
The other way- to the right. It squats with a yank inducing squat and incucing push or greater than factory understeer...THEN suddenly when the bar grounds out against the brace the travel is limited and the inside rear binds and lifts pressure...Snap oversteer fron suspension bind resulting in a dramatric dangerous oversteer that never happened to you before in the 10,000 miles you have driven on this product already.

It is unpredictable, it is notr engineered correctly and reduces safety of a vehicle if installed without the knowledge of the ill effects it could cause to a unsuspecting client. 99% of people buying this have no clue nor does it say anything about handling charateristics or the change of geometry and vehicle dynamics. It merely says- use this to gain exhaust clearance.

RED_DRAGON_85

sorry, i wasnt saying he COULDNT do it, but that it was unlikely that he would intentionally do so...
i understand the emergency scenario, and you have a valid point.
thats why i suggested that the bar be sold IN CONJUNCTION with a relocation mount for the axle side.
jegs sells one, so it cant be too hard to replicate *cough UMI cough *

383fbod

iTrader: (2)

I would like to auto x but mostly have a great street car ,what is a good split to have on my panhard bar ,with stiffer 1" drop springs (Hotchkis) ,1" solid sway bar rear and adj.panhard, LCARBs,adj.TQ arm on a 4th gen rear?
my front susp consists of Delsphere tube A-arms,1-3/8" sway bar,KYB single adj struts(shocks rear), eddlebrock upper strut bar, spherical upper strut caster camber plates(hot parts)1" drop springs with 220 to 250 lbs lighter in front end 2-1/4"spacers front with 275/40/17 Hankook ventus tires on all 4 corners
any suggestions on alignment settings?

89_RS

Is this what you are talking about:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/41055/10002/-1

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

yea thats it

its quite simple to make your own, you probably should anyway, the quality of the jegs piece it appalling, total crap. the one i bought didnt even have drilled holes, they are just plasma cut/water jet cut holes that are not even round. I seem to remember a while back UMI saying that they were going to make one, but i guess it hasn't happened yet

Im actually using UMI's upper bar too, the older one i assume, it was new at the time, and without the axle side relocation the panhard bars did bind on each other. I noticed it right away when i drive it, the rear felt weird. I relocated the axle side, along with some other tweaks of my suspension setup, and the car performs just fine, very well actually.

I will have to agree with Vetruck with this one, UMI really should address this by at least mentioning the suspension geometry changes and producing an axle side relocation as well. They really are cake to make, seriously, drill a couple holes, box in the backside for strength and done! some welding required.

89_RS

Looks simple enough. Maybe I'll buy one just to get specs and then machine it out of Aermet or some other really long lasting alloy.

Although Aermet doesn't rust and looks polished after you're done machining it. Plus, its almost 3 times stronger than steel.

nape

iTrader: (1)

watajob: Just take off the PHB relocator. There's plenty of exhaust clearance without it.

I agree with Dean. These products are pretty crazy in that they just bolt on in the first place and on top of it, no one has to look for cracked spot welds or anything else before they increase the length of the body mount bracket (increased loading).

Most of the parts made for these cars (k-member/a-arms/etc) are unnecessary other then drag racing to reduce weight.

Jason @ Unbalanced Engineering makes great PHB drop brackets and they've been tested on race cars around the country on race tires in a lot worse situations then driving to the grocery store

http://www.unbalancedengineering.com

blacksunshine'91

iTrader: (10)

Whoah!!! You mean there are other reasons for modifying your suspension? I respectfully diagree.

*Just trying to throw some humor into the situation*

blacksunshine'91

iTrader: (10)

I agree completely. Why hasn't anyone done this? I'd think it would be an easy part to make. The only thing I have seen that comes close is the piece from Granatelli. But from what someone who bought it (IIRC, James C) said that it was a piece of crapola. All they do is take a stock piece and weld it in to box it then sell it for a ridiculous amount.

nape

iTrader: (1)

Because it would cost ~$100 and do absolutely nothing other then be shiny in red/black powdercoat.

It wouldn't reduce weight much, it's all sprung weight, and it doesn't do anything but brace the PHB mount and the stock piece does a perfectly good job of doing it.

blyth18md

Group Hug?

blacksunshine'91

iTrader: (10)

Makes sense...(is that allowed?)

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

damn... my popcorn is gone.

I won't be taking either side on this one...

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Geez! I almost afraid to show my face now!

That's what I was interested in. The exhaust has nothing to do with my intent. My 3" Pacestter catback is just fine.

One more question, hopefully without starting a fist fight. So, if I do an axle end relo bracket, will I be able to back out of my driveway without killing myself?

BTW, the car's handling potential IS above my driving ability!

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Lowering the axle side would help, but then your springs will feel a lot softer so you may be able to try and band aid it by using a larger rear sway bar since you don't race it. The best way to fix it is by putting the stock part back on since you say the clearance wasn't even needed for the exhaust. The stock part is more then capable of acting as the brace, and I doubt you saved much if any weight. If you don't want to put the stock part back on, then the proper way to address the problem is by lowering the axle side you mentioned and then installing stiffer springs in the rear. Installing the new and stiffer springs may also raise it up even if they are "lowering" springs just because of how old your suspension components probably are. Depending on your spring sag, simply installing new stock replacement springs may fix any rubbing issues you have. However, the handling issues still wouldn't be addressed.

Did that make sense? It's after 2am and I'm about ready to call it a night/morning.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

I'd probably sale the UMI piece since you don't need it and take that money to get the stock piece powdercoated. Going back to the shiney, new(ish) and black thing lol

CaysE

To anyone hesitant about Vetruck's information: I'd take his suspension advice over anybody's, sponsor or not. He's been around a whole lot longer than his join date admits and really does know what he's talking about.

Dean, after all these years, you gotta stop typing like you're angry at everyone's lack of knowledge. Just help them see the light.

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

I agree. If there is one person on these suspension forums that I believe over almost anyone is dean. Now there are some times that I disagree with how he puts his point across, I will rarely disagree or not believe what he says about suspensions.

Dean, do you know/ever met Steve Fox?

Guest

All I can say is I have poor typing skills. I look at the keyboard and peck with two fingers and I guess I come across robotic and cold. I ALWAYS have to go back and try to edit my postings due to typing errors and sentences not worded the best.

I my defense. I can not tell you how many people have met me in person and go to know me after only knowing me from this website and say I am nothing like I type.

Yes, I do have a vengefulness, but I rarely ever get angry in life, I get even in a humurous way that makes me laugh. Is it right? I personally don't care, I try to stick with facts until someone I feel starts trying to discredit me- then the fun begins (smiles) I am a very comical sarcastic person, just ask my girlfriend. Lisa would not have me any other way. That vengefulness is more of a drive for competitiveness. I am VERY competitive, I am also a twin- That alone I have had a competition partner my whole life- we thrive on it.

To know me is to love me LOL (I Love you Blythe..Hugs back)

Here, Lets meet the real Dean. First pic is Lisa and I just recently on my Birthday (43-My Richard Petty Birthday).
The second pic is this past weekend. The guy on the far right is Jason Phillips and is member here that just met me. Jason was a fantastic help on a truck team we quickly put together just last week and learned alot- I can tell he will go far if he can continue helping, he is very bright..pic 3 is Derek and I discussing the qualifying run while Ricky and Jason are getting ready to make the next adjustments.

Guest

He is me on the way home that day. I broke down on the side of the freeway and had to call AAA.

Seriously though, My two true passions are 1)Scuba diving and 2)snow skiing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUk13qa6OP4
3) out playing in general like Pismo Beach for a weekend riding bikes.
The car stuff comes 4th in my hobby list. If you were to hang with me, I rarely do car stuff outside of racing anymore. Its probably why I like coming in here helping with problems and trying to put my knowledge to use in a helpful way. the old saying, if you don't use it, you loose it. Just as clients have always told me in my Stone business, it would be a shame not to pass on my craftmanship to an apprentice. I learn things easily in life (my twin has a IQ of 172, I have never been tested) I find pleasure in helping others learn. Alot of you do not know that I actually help out on NASCAR teams for free. they pay my way, but I do not accept a paycheck because at the level I help at it is not fair for a person to take money out of their pocket for my hobby. If it advanced higher some day with major sponsors? then hell yes I will take a paycheck, but not until I can quit my day job and make the same if not more off a race team that has major funding from sponsors and not a sole individual with minor sponsors and paying alot out of his own pocket still.

I gotta get to work. Duty calls.

CaysE

I can tell what went wrong just by looking at the pic... you got a skydiver's parachute stuck in your intake.

Sorry to get off topic. Carry on.

Kat

iTrader: (4)

Pfffttt Thats only a F-18.. I rather build the MH-47G's

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

You never did mention if you had ever met Steve Fox or know who he is for that matter. He is the Owner/Starter of PowerTrain Technologies.

He is one of the head judges at Formula SAE. You can tell who he is by looking for the guy in the cowboy hat. You remind me of him. He can seem to be very "hard", but in reality, he is a great guy to talk to, he knows a ton of stuff, and he has that questioning attitude. He wants you to answer your own questions by making you think. Alot like Dean does on here.