How hard is it to install a strut tower brace, and for those of you who have one, is it worth it? Does it give your car better handling??

 

What type of intake do you have carb, TBI or TPI? Most are easy except some carb equipped cars. Yes, they are worth it.

Mike

 

What type of intake do you have carb, TBI or TPI? Most are easy except some carb equipped cars. If your car has a carb, which side is your A.C. compressor mounted? Yes, they are worth the trouble.

Mike

 

i have a 92 rs with a 305 TBI

 

If you order a brace for your TBI car, the most you would need is socket set, a drill motor and a drill bit the same size as the bolts that come with the brace. Edelbrock makes one that will clear your air cleaner. Your 92 should have a serpentine belt with the A.C. compressor on the passenger side. That is good because the Edelbrock STB should not interfere with the A.C. mounting bracket. Early third gens with V belts mounted the A.C. on the drivers side. These cars required modification to the A.C. bracket.

------------------
Nor Cal Mike
Red 84 Z28 HO, stock L82 350, L69 carb, intake, and air cleaner.
5 Spd, 3:73 Posi, 1 5/8" SLP headers, 3"cat connected to
stock L69 exhaust, KYB's, homemade SFC's,STB and wonderbar
Some are faster but mine's fast enough.

 

ok, now what will i actually gain by putting one on?? everyone says they work great, etc, etc., but never actually tell how they help out??

 

ok, now what will i actually gain by putting one on?? everyone says they work great, etc, etc., but never actually tell how they help out??

 

The STB ties the front strut towers together and depending on how many points your's is can tie into the firewall too. I have heard the towers can move by, I forget how many inches, but it seemed like alot to me so I ordered mine from Kenny Brown, haven't installed it yet, but when I'm done with the rear end swap and the suspension I will see if I can notice anything. I figure even if I can't really notice a difference with it, I'm sure it's doing something good, like reducing flex in the body working right along with my Alston SFC's. And for the money (approx. $120) it's a good investment too.

------------------
1992 25th Heritage Z28 Red/Black - L98 350
- Flowmaster 3" cat-back, Random Tech cats, SLP runners/headers etc, Bosch 36lb inj/4+ plugs, MSD 6A/billet dist/8.5 wires/Blaster coil, TPIS 52mm TB, Stewart polished pump, ported intake.
- Stereo: Panasonic/Audio Control/ADS/Alpine

Currently In the Works:
Hotchkis LCA/panhard rod, Baer 13"/12" upgrade, SLP 17" chrome SS rims w/GY F1's, 4th Gen 3:73 HD Zexel/Torsen, Moser Rear End, Spohn Torque Arm/LCA RLC brackets, all MOOG front pieces, Hellwig solid fr/r bars. etc.........
'99 Corvette front seats, Autometer Gauge pod....

 

How do you drive? Do you like to carve corners somewhat aggressively? If so, third gens have alot of flex in them. This is bad for performence driving. In the case of the strut towers, the front suspension geometry is held in line by the strut towers, which are attached to the inner fender panels. These panels are stamped from sheet metal, not good for rigidity. When cornering, lateral forces in the front suspension will cause the towers / inner fenders to flex. This flex allows the suspension geometry to change, which is bad.

STB's tie the two towers together so that they are more rigid. There are 2 point STB's and 3 point STB's. The 3 point ones are the best because they also tie the towers back to the firewall. I have a 2 point STB that along with a wonder bar and SFC's, make my car handle really well. You can feel it in the steering and in the seat in of your pants while cornering. Ever drive a go kart? It feels like that.

Mike

Check outr the archives there's a lot ove info there.

 

The strut tower brace makes the car more nuetral. Without it the car wants to wonder from side to side. It is a must have.. like good shocks and ball joints. This is noticable just driving to the local store. It should have been installed from the factory. Knowning what i do now, it would be the first suspension mod i would do.

It made a big difference on my car,it has a lot of miles so that may have had something to do with it.

------------------
Black 90 IROC, L98, A4, 323 gear. SuperRamed 406 in the works!

 

Ok, I'm pretty well convinced on getting the STB now, and i'm looking for a wonder bar, but haven't found one as of yet. Are the SFC's really necessary if i'm not going to be doing alot of racing? i'd like to do as much as possible but still keep it cheap

 

http://www.globalwest.net/camaro93.htm has the wonderbars. Here's the pic on their site. The wonderbar is the middle piece, part #TS-14.




------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Does your car car have T tops? If so, I would say that SFC's are necessary if you wish that your car live a long life. My car has T tops and came equipped with L69 option. It has stress cracks at the upper corner of the roof section (B pillar I think it's called). This comes from flex in the unibody. All T top cars that have a little H.P., are prone to this problem. Non T top cars are a little better, but still have alot of flex. Flex is bad for performance. My brother and I built our own SFC's for about 50 bucks and a day's effort. If you buy an SFC, add about $250-300 to the cost for instalation, and you'll probably be ballpark.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Nor Cal Mike (edited January 22, 2001).]

 

I noticed my car creeks and groans alot less over uneven surfaces. It must be doing somethin'

 

I just installed the Kenny Brown 3 point strut tower brace along with the Global West steering box brace (wonderbar). It made a huge difference. Steering response is so much more precise and the car feels much more stable in hard corners. One of the biggest things I noticed is the improvement in multiple turns. Before, if I took a hard left and then a hard right at somewhat high speeds the front suspension would become so unsettled that the car would want to go out of control. Now it feels rock solid. All of this driving was done on an autocross course (not on public roads....well okay maybe some of it)

------------------
1991 Z28 - 350 TPI, T56, McLeod street clutch, ported plenum & runners, AFPR, Holley Annihilator ignition box and wires, Hooker shorty headers w/o AIR, Flowmaster muffler, homeade ram-air, SSM subframe connectors, Kenny Brown STB, Global West steering box brace, Steve Spohn adjustable torque arm and T56 crossmember

 

BTW, if you go with the Edelbrock 3-point. Mount the rear bar location under the lip of the firewall rather than on top as described in the enclosed instructions. You will gain a little extra hood clearance. Some people have trouble with it hitting the under hood insulation otherwise. I recommend it as a package with SFC & steering brace (wonder bar) if you are setting the car up for serious corner carving. Good luck, Lon.

 

not sure how good this guy was, but i remember on an earlier discussion that a mechanical engineer worked out the formulas and figured out that from where most 3 point STBs are connected, that third point wouldnt do much to help except in a front end collision.

 

I'm no engineer, but 25 years as a carpenter has taught me that by spreading out the load on any structural member, it's rigidity and overall strength is increased. By spreading the load of front end torsion to the firewall, you're taking away load from somewhere else. It may be just a little but that might be all it takes. This is where the engineers and their formulas come in. If you ask me, I don't see how any unibody car lasts 50,000 miles, let alone 150,000, but the engineers say it's hunky dory.

Mike

 

Hmm, 3-point is no better? Then do as I did and convert it to a 4-point. But then I am an Engineer. What do I know? 8^)

 

Im an engineer to and I studied these as a little side project for myself before I bought one and did a lab write up on it. I fount that by tyinin it into the Fire wall did nothing because ther was not hardly any force that would be pushing it rearward. Frankyl it would be the same if you tied it to the front end. What I discovered was the suspension coverrts all energy associated with a bump to vetical movement and dissapates that in the springs which are dampened by the shocks. Therfore if you thin about it all the pressure is moving directly upwards. This causes stress on the Strut towers whic can move vertically by stressing the frame. Now when this happens many problem occur in the chassis, body, and suspension that all hinder cornering. SO if you put a bar like the Hotchkis that just braces the 2 sides together it will take a lot more force to move the tower upwards becase it has to pust the other side down againts the upward force of the Spring. Bracing to the firewall would help in the event of an accident, it might save you and some valuable parts of you car. So that is something to consider also.

 

Kyle F,

No disrespect intended--and certainly no flame is intended. If you're an engineer, you're obviously an intelligent person, but damn, I teach English.

JamesC

------------------

 

Kyle,

You didn't tell us what grade you got on the lab write-up. Just kidding!! Let's break this down a bit. If you are in a hard right turn, the right side of your car is dipping down forcing the right strut tower toward the outside of the car. This makes the left side tip in. The strut towers want to stay in the vertical position. If you have just a 2 pt brace you are keeping the strut towers at an equal distance apart but not necessarily contolling the amount of flex(side-to-side and front-to-rear). The right one pulls the left toward it. If you have it tied into the rear firewall that will give you an extra brace point and hopefully keep the brace from moving around as much. Using this explanation it would be nice to have a tie-in above the radiator support also to help give even more rigidity.
Later,
Craig
MET



------------------
84 Z28 305HO, 5spd, 220,000 miles, Edelbrock intake, Hedman headers, low restriction exh(w/cat), K&N air filter. Best 1/4 so far 14.649 at 94.77mph

 

I'd like to start off my reply by offering due respect to the engineers and English teachers of Third Gen Org. After all, my wife is a math teacher which puts her somewhere between the two professions.

Kyle F, I wouldn't consider the purpose of the third point as a remedy for vertical movement, although I see how it could be of marginal use. Nor would I view a two point brace as a remedy for vertical movement either. As I understand the dilemma, the problem with our cars is torsional movment of the shock towers, ie.the towers twist side to side under load of the front suspension. A two point brace, which is held in place by a single bolt at each side, would act as a hinge under vertical movement, rendering it useless for that use. It would help torsional loading, side to side, by tying the the two towers together as a unit. The third point would increase torsional (side to side) rigidity, much like the chord of a truss.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Nor Cal Mike (edited January 30, 2001).]

 

Sorry guys I suck at typing. It wasnt a required class in school. My ideas might not be totally correct because I did not get to experiment with this. I do have a Strut tower Brace, but I do not have the equipment to monitor what happens while driving.
I have to say thought that you get very little movement other than vertical just by the way the system is set up and this bar when tighten down will not act as a hinge rather it will act as Force in the opposite direction. The point was made that when you take a hard right turn the weight shifts to the left so the Spring on the left side is compressed. Well all this force not absorbed by mechanical friction is translated up to the strut tower. No if a bar runs to the other side this force is then applied to the other side but downward, so this means the force is now divided in half (idealy) because its actin in two point in opposite directions because the right side is trying to lift because of the shift of the center of gravity. We can discuss this till we are blue in the face. Some one just need to test there hypothesis with some kind of measurements and see what motion and forces actually occur. Mine are just a mathmatical and physical Hypothisis which I have no way top prove at this point, so I talk all Ideas seriously and there were may good points made. Hell who knows we could all be wrong wouldn't be the first time.
Once again sorry about the typing, and no flames taken, just I dont go back an correct my errors. Im sure you guys get the idea anyways.

 

The suspension is inclined rearward (not verticle) and inward so we can assume that there stress to the stryt towers has both an X, Y, and Z component. The 3-point is to triangulate the points so that the three point are always at a constant distance away from eachother and form a single plane. The edelbrock, while having 4-points, is similar to a 3-point system.

Having the STB connected to the firwall (3rd point) helps when the car is turning and hits a bump, pushing the inside strut tower up-rearward-and-inward and into the extra brace.

------------------
1985 Z-28 305 TPI
220,000 mi., Original Eng.

 

Kyle,
Not trying to flame you, but a Strut Tower Brace does little to stop vertical movement of the towers. That's what Subframe Connectors (SFC's) are for. To stiffen the chassis overall and reduce body flex.

The STB's job is to eliminate lateral movement in the towers. In hard cornering the strut towers like to flex in or out, which upsets your camber of the front wheels. The STB works to prevent this flex from happening and keeps the wheel geometry intact. This improves cornering and front end grip.

 

Hey man, I see u have an RS. So this is what the engine would look like with a STB on it. I have one on my 305 TBI and I like it a lot. Good suspension mod. In my personal opioion. The pic is at my site in my sig.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

Well, after reading this thread, I decided to get an edelbrock 3point STB. I started out with a global west wonderbar and noticed a nice improvement, but the car was still only fair on handling. About 5 months later I added alston subframe connectors and I noticed an improvement but not what I thought I would get. The car was still unpredictable in certian types of turns
and high speed sweepers took a lot of diver imput to control. So, I added the STB this weekend and that really seemed to complete the package.
I don't think any one component will do the trick.I went to poly bushings and good shocks before doing any of this stuff , but without the three components mentioned above,the car was still not consistent. I guess the whole is greater than the sum of the parts?
Anyway, I'm sure glad I added the STB cause the other two components by themselves were not satisfactory.
By the way, the ride is signifigantly harsher since I did the STB so I guess the frame/body isn't soakin up the bumps anymore?
Glad you guys posted this stuff or I would still be driving a flexible flyer............bob

------------------
91 camaro RS L03 convert,
t-5, ultimate TBI mods,TBI spacer,SLP 1 5/8 headers,
3"cat back, 3.42 torsen posi,alston SFC's,Global West LCA relocation brackets, edelbrock STB

 

rsilver: I see your 91 'vert is now similarly equipped to my 90. Which tires/rims do you have? I noticed a big difference in switching from the stock 15 x 7's to the WS6 16 X 8 rims. My next upgrade to further stiffen the chassis will be a roll bar tying into the front. I like the design of Kenny Browne's but it is a bolt in. I plan on having mine welded. Good luck and enjoy the improvments. Lon

 

Exactly what needs to be done to the A/C bracket in earlier 3rd gens for the Edelbrock STB to fit?

 

Lonsal, I forgot to mention I used your tip on mounting the STB brace UNDER the lip in the firewall. That was a great tip. Thanks.
I have the stock 16x8 rims which along with cruise control (on a t-5 ) and power windows were options on this car.The tires are Kelly springfield charger HR 245/50. I could not fit the 255's in the front wheel wells with out some mods I didn't want to make.
Great minds think alike, cause I just scheduled my roll bar!!! I am having one made and will weld in also, but I will just go with a 4 point. I want a little protection in a roll over and I don't expect much chassis improvement from it, but I will check out the Kenny brown site and see what you are gonna do.Hey,let me know and vice versa on any other stuff you do. I am about done with the chassis after the roll bar except for my on going quest to eliminate top squeeks and rattles.
You got any fixes for those? Thanks for the help...........bob


------------------
91 camaro RS L03 convert,
t-5, ultimate TBI mods,TBI spacer,SLP 1 5/8 headers,
3"cat back, 3.42 torsen posi,alston SFC's,Global West LCA relocation brackets, edelbrock STB

 

AT4 T/A,

I read a thread 3 or 4 months ago from a guy who said that he had to cut and reweld the brace that bolts to the back side compressor because it interfered with the STB. I'm pretty sure it (STB) was an Edelbrock. This apparently is the case on cars with the AC compressor on the driver side. My 84 Z has that set up. I built my own STB. I made it rise high enough to clear the brace and it clears the hood with no problems.

I'm in the process of fabbing two rods that will 3 point my STB back to the firewall. They will attach by using clevises @ each end of the rods bolted to tabs on the STB and at the firewall. They will be removable.

Mike

 

Mike: The Edelbrock STB won't work without modification on pre 88 cars. Evidently it was designed for the layout of the accessories on the serpentine belt equipped cars.

Bob: I just like the style of the KB roll bar. The side bars are down low, so don't interfere with ingress/egress. I am wokking on resolving many of the rattles, squeaks, etc. We should share ideas via e-mail. I won't post it here as it strays from the STB topic.

 

Ionsal, Bob,
Last nite I started a thread titled "8 point cage". Move on over there, let's talk.

Mike

 

Does the STB on a TBI car really get in the way? Changing spark plugs, routine engine work, etc.? Just wondering. I think it would be worth the trouble though.

 

"Mike: The Edelbrock STB won't work without modification on pre 88 cars. Evidently it was designed for the layout of the accessories on the serpentine belt equipped cars. "

That's not neceesarily true. I installed the edelbrock three point on my 85 z28 TPI a couple weeks ago and I didn't have any problems.

I did have to remove my hood to drill on the firewall edge part. The removal of the hood is not mentioned by the instructions but how else are you going to be able to use a conventional drill with a 3/8 bit in the verticle position (for the back part) without removing the hood?

I have second thoughts on the effectivness of the three points though. Go out to your car a move the firewall lip in the middle and see what I mean; it isn't all that strong. But at least it looks cool.

But between the edelbrock 3-point and a globalwest steering brace my front stiffened up a lot. A big difference to say the least. The car is now a lot firmer. Now I have to install Spohn's SFCs.

Also I did not have to modify anything else. My A/C bracket was not affected or touched.

85 305 TPI
V-belt and 1 ribbed belt setup


James

------------------
1985 Z-28 305 TPI
221,000+ mi., Original Eng.

 

James: I didn't remove my hood to drill those holes. I raised the hood to it's max. Then marked the hole locations, center punched them. Then put masking tape on the top side of the hood wrapping it over the edge in that location. Then I drilled from the windshield side with drill motor angled. The chuck of the drill was close to the hood (that's why I used the masking tape to prevent an accident). I think I cleaned up the holes with a rat-tail file.
Soulbounder: The STB doesn't interfere with most routine maintenance. I converted mine to a 4-point, welding on 2 extra bars which tie it into a plate at the radiator support.
I installed a Stewart Components water pump without removing the STB. But i did remove it to install headers and the clutch master cylinder when I swapped in a T5. But it is SO EASY to remove it. Just 4-bolts and about 5 minutes max. In my case another 2 bolts at the radiator support. Good luck, Lon.

 

I didn't have any trouble changing my plugs with it on. Change the passenger side ones from below and the driver side on top. STB does get in the way though sometimes but its easy to unbolt and bolt back on.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

Hey, i finally went ahead and built my STB. I used 1", .090 wall round tubing, with 1" solid steel for the pieces that angled off from the mounts. I made mounts out of 2x3 tubing that i milled angles on, and so far it looks pretty good. I have to do a little welding still, and then we'll bolt it up and see how it works. I'm gonna have a nearby shop powdercoat it once its all done and smoothed out a little. Hoping to have it on tomorrow..

 

Right on! I like reading about guys scratch building there own parts. I do it because I like doing it and I do it out of necessity. My oldest daughter is headed for college soon and her little sister is right behind. All our extra $$ is going into the college fund.

I'm going for poli graphite bushings next and while the LCA's are out I'll box them in. A role cage is in the planning stage too. I have a hydraulic pipe bender so I'll bend that up myself. My brother is a welder by trade so he does most of the welding while I cut and fab the pieces. I'm a decent welder but why bother if I have an in-family welder.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Nor Cal Mike (edited February 13, 2001).]

 

Mike, nice to have those "resources" available. I'm too embarassed to say how much I paid to have my 3-point modified to a 4-point, but it was still worth it to me. BTW, anyone considering getting the Edelbrock 3-point STB. I bought mine from carpartsonsale.com ($107.17). They even threw in a free Camaro Street Pro t-shirt!

 

I only paid $125 for the hydraulic bender. I bought it at one of those Truck Tool Sales. I't was made in some third world country but hey, a hydraulic ram is a hydraulic ram and cast iron pipe bending dies ain't exactly rocket science.

I live 150 miles up 101 from S.F. If anybody is able to travel to Nor Cal, come on up. I'll help you bend your pipe and my brother works pretty reasonably.

Mike