If a 4th gen and a 3rd gen both have equal amounts of handling mods done (say koni shocks, eibach springs, strut tower brace, LCA's, 17" wheels, panhard, etc), which would be a better handling car, as defined by skid pad #'s and seat of the pants drive-ability?

 

The 4th gen, The SLA front suspension and more accurate rack and pinion steering would make it a better handling car, not to mention the better weight distribution of the LS1's...and lower center of gravity.

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You have walked onto the biggest baddest dog porch and you will be dealt with accordingly.

I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct!

 

Yeah, why isn't anyone converting to rack and pinion instead of replacing their regular steering? You can anything you want from hot rod companies.

However, I have heard from many people that our cars are supposed to have been the best in terms of the chassis. I don't know about either frame but (it may be because I have a WS6)all my stock suspension pieces are a lot beefier than what's under the 4th gen, WS6/SS or not. Plus some of the IROCs came with wonderbars (they should have been on WS6s too).

 

For the price, ours are better. Simpler, less to get wrong when setting up. But it my not ride better. Ride and handling are 2 different things.

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, 700R4, P.A.W. 14x3 open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips, Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248)
Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options

[This message has been edited by Tas (edited November 27, 2001).]

 

mod for mod, the thirdgen will always handle better. Fourthgens have a more compromised suspension, GM got alot better ride quality out of the 93 + cars than ours. What 4th gen will pull .91 off the showroom floor like a 92 1LE car. the 99 1LE sure won't.

 

I've owned 2 4th gens in the past, a 96 Camaro and a 96 Trans Am. The Trans Am has the same aftermarket suspension parts that my 86 Trans Am has and I still like the handling of the 86, it feels more stable, and tighter. The Camaro was Bone Stock.

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WS6 Trans Am.

View My Ride @ thirdgen.org

 

I tried to drive my friend's 93 formula like I do my 86 and we ended up getting sideways, off the road, and 1 foot from some huge trees. I think 3rd gens have MUCH better suspension.

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'86 IROC 5-speed
305 LG4
edelbrock performer rpm intake
edelbrock 600 cfm carb
msd pro billet hei distributer
'95 3.23 rearend
hotchkis rear suspension
PST front polygraphite suspension
"speed kills. buy a f@&d, live forever."

 

I have a 89 WS6 and I just got rid of my 97 formula. I like the handleing of my thirdgen much better than my fourthgen. I like everything about my thirdgen better than my fourthgen except the steering I don't like the way my WS6 follows ruts in the road.

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89 GTA w/700r4w/stage 2 shift kit,2800 converter, corvette servo, B&M mega shifter, TPIS bigmouth intake, TPIS large tube runners, TPIS 52mm throttle body, Ported Edelbrock centerbolt heads,Accell 30# injectors,holly afpr,GMPP LT4 hotcam,CompCams Pro magnum roller rockers,Edelbrock headers, flowmaster crossflow muffler,MSD 6A, accell coil,150 shot NOS. The new engine is in but I am still having some small problems.

 

Fourth Gen cars took about 6 steps backward compared to the third gen cars in terms of handling, gotta love/hate GM. The only thing they did sorta right was make it ride better due to the different front suspension, but screwed that up in the process too.

GM did the following things:
Made the car taller - higher center of gravity (bad)
Made the rear track a few inches wider (good)
Threw out struts and added shocks to the front, double a-arms (good for ride, bad setup out of the box for handling)
Uses smaller front sway bars (bad)
Can get a 275-40-17 tire (good)

When you look at it on paper, they should be about the same, but with GM's magical ability to screw things up, the fourth gen was a bastard from the factory. Comparing an SLP 4th gen to a out of the box IROC (like a '89) isn't even fair, but the IROC eats it up in the handling department.

Modified with the same parts, the third gen extends that advantage to unfair proportions.

Another point: the 1997 Vette (new style) didn't even match the handling of the older models (1996 and before), even with more advanced parts/engineering untill they introduced the Z06 model. A modified C4 is at least as good if not better than a modified C5 Vette.

GM keeps it up and soon their minivans will handle better than their sports cars (if they manage to keep in business that long).


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Paul "chicks dig me" Huryk
Monkey Guy Racing
Living life 12 seconds or less at a time

Paul's home page

1984 Camaro 350 LG4 Best: 12.21s at 121.7mph
2002 Acura TL Type S

 

Paul,
Good points. I've heard of IROCs getting past 1.0 g's regularly on the skid pad, but I haven't heard of 4th gen.'s doing the same. I read somewhere a '00 SLP Camaro SS pulled .91 g's on the skid pad, but never heard of any past that. Is there any cumulative data comparing skid pad #'s on various IROC's, GTA's, 4th gen.'s & vettes - just curious....

 

Speaking of skidpads, how would you be able to test that? I've always wondered how I could test how much of a sideways G my car could handle.

Thanks,
Jesse

 

Get a G-tech and drive around a 200ft. dia. circle. The highest number you hold for 3 seconds straight is your G number for that direction. Average your numbers for each direction and that is your lateral G's.

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'91 RS 3.1
SSM SFC's
Energy Susp. Hyper-flex kit
GTA Sway bars
Clarion, Phoenix Gold, JL Audio, etc.
Pictures: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...=13412261&f=0]
Quote: "If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten."
- George Carlin

 

Has anyone here tried this? Although it would look really cool and probably take a few pounds out of the front end, I think it would be damn near impossible to do. If anyone has any ideas though, I'm open to suggestions!

 

Or (I haven't looked at it to see) would 4th gen rack & pinion work?

 

I thought about converting to rack and pinion, then I realized how the frame isnt set up for it, and it'd be more trouble than its worth.

Try asking this question on a 4th gen board, and you'll get lots of guys comparing their POS thirdgen with 200,000 worn-out miles to their brand new SS or WS6. Its hilarious. They refuse to admit the truth.


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1991 Camaro Z28
5.7L 5-Speed (originally 305)
318 RWHP, 419 RWTQ
13.23 @ 107.62 MPH (2.13 60')
Southern California
Member: SoCal F-Bodies
-=ICON Motorsports=-

 

the 3rd Gen will do better than the 4th Gen.
I'm involved in SCCA racing and the 4th Gen cars are just getting into the A/S class and they are not doing so hot. The 3rd Gen cars are stomping them on the track and the required carb'd engine in the 4th Gen is presenting even more problems.
I also own one of each, a 3rd and a 4th Gen car. Both fun in different areas.

 

I feel that the 3rd Gens do handle better, at least in stock form.

Some of the reasons for this are unintentional, such as the 4th Gen being a heavier and slightly taller car, and some are very intentional.

I think the engineers purposely calibrated the 4th Gens to understeer for liability reasons because of the higher horsepower levels. An understeering car is generally more forgiving than one that gets tail-happy, especially on slick surfaces.

My brother has a '92 B4C Camaro, and I wish my '99 felt that tight....somewhere in between is my G/F's WS6, much tighter than my Z28, but softer riding than the '92.

The only mods I still want to do to my '99 is a complete LG Motorsports G2 suspension....I want it to corner as hard as my '83 did!



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Death Before Front Wheel Drive!
Gruesome death before sUVs!!

1999 Camaro Z28
Navy Blue Metallic, Neutral Leather, MN6, Hurst Shifter, ASR, PS cooler, 12 Disc CD
Mods: Skip shift eliminator, FRA, Direct-Flo + K&N, SLP LOUDmouth!, Black Billet Grille, 1970 Z28 emblems, Dark tint

1999 Trans Am WS6 Convertible
Bright Red, Graphite Leather interior, Black ragtop, A4, CD, no air baffles...

Former owner of a 1983 Z28, 1990 RS

 

Is it becuz the thirdgen have a sterring box, that makes them better handling cars? i thought of changing a couple of things..

FRONT Suspension:
Replace the k-member with a tubular one from paracing.net
convert to coil-over from paracing.net
convert to Manual Rack Kit from paracing.net
convert to tublar a-arms from paracing.net

with all that stuff changed will it improve the handling or will degrade the handling?

Since it seems that it is a 4th gen setup. Since 3rd gen handle better and converting to a close 4th gen setup... will I degrade the handling?

 

 

Hmm... I hear that Auto-X people will take a thirdgen over a 4th gen anyday. I feel that my 89 IROC-Z handles better than my roommates 95 T/A.

 

But like with the mods, listed above, done to a thirdgen ... would it degrade the handling?

 

 

I just stumbled upon an interesting tidbit of info. A friend of mine's gf has a 99 firebird v-6 and was complaining about the handling, it was pushing. So I climbed under to see what gm did with the chassis. The first thing i see is the rear sway bar is about the size of a marker, I'm not kidding its wee little like .35 inches little. It looked like it had the same shape as a 3rd gen's sway bar. So I wipped out a rear sway bar off a 85 z-28 and sure enough it will bolt right in with the correct bushings. Upon farther checking the front is also interchangable. GM used a 1.25 inch sway bar up front which is the same size that is on the front of my monte and on earlyer z-28 cars. From the looks of things this would introduce coniderable oversteer to the car. This is a base model v-6 but it shows you frame of mind GM had when they "tuned" the suspension on the 4th gens.

 

So if I install this... (see attachment)


on a 3rd gen. I cannot tell how it would degrade handling performance. It's light. pretty strong. pretty . Its even got tubular A-arms. conncections for rack and pionion steering.

Although, I am unaware how converting to coil over and rack and pionion steering help the handling?

Can anyone please help me on this?

 

Steeroids is designing a third gen rack and pinion but it won't be available for about a year. Maybe if enough people show interest it won't take as long. www.speeddirect.com

 

Man... I wish I had the $$ for that tubular setup.... and a lot of other things

 

I will be interested to see how my Formula handles after I put the new shocks, struts and springs on it. I'm also having my uncle go through the steering and fix anything that looks or is worn out. The way it is right now, it feels more ponderous and less connected to the road than my Z28...then again, it has over twice the mileage. I expect this to change.

Stock for stock, a third gen is a better handling car. The highest skidpad # I have ever seen from a 4th gen Z was .88 for a '97. Meanwhile, WS6 Formulas could do .89 g's, and hell, I even have one road test of an RS 305 with Eagle GA's pulling .9g's!!

4th gens in road tests always seemed to pull between .84 and .88 for V8s, while IROCs, GTAs, Formulas and Z28s always pulled .86 or better. In slalom tests, the third gens always had a small edge too.

Drive on a bumpy road though, and you'll appreciate the 4th gen a helluva lot more!