BADNBLK

iTrader: (11)

I already have Koni yellows all the way around, and like the shocks with the exception of the adjustment on the rear shocks...

It appears that the 4th gen rear shocks use adjustment **** similar to front struts (easy), instead of loosening the rear shock and turning the entire shaft for adjustment. Maybe my thirdgen set is old, but it is a PITA to adjust from twisty turns driving to drag racing.

Has anyone used a 4th gen rear Koni yellow for this reason? Any downfalls to swapping my 3rd gens for 4th gens (other than cost)??

Roostmeyer

iTrader: (3)

The fourth gen shocks are a twin tube compared to the third gen monotube. There's a lot of marketing hype between the two, but it comes down to a monotube has a larger area for displacement and that tends to make it a better performing shock. (I'm glossing over a LOT of reading here)

In terms of fitment you'll be fine. If your road racing or autocrossing it, I'd stick with what you've got. If its just a street car, I'd go for the easier adjustment of the fourth gen shocks.

BADNBLK

iTrader: (11)

Wow had no clue that the changed to a twin tube design. I'm not racing my car everyweek end, but I do push it hard and to the limit. I autocrossed it and run canyons fairly often, but the adjustability just sounds so nice to flips the seats over and turn the ****, instead of partial disassembly to make the same adjustment.

Thanks for the info

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Just out of curiosity, what settings do you run your rears at?

The 4th gen guys have been running 4/4 or 4/3 (front/rear) for a long time. The 4/3 combo is a simple way to save $100 when initially buying them. I debated doing a 3/4 combo on my 3rd gen for the rear adjustability. But I'm not into changing the rear end settings. So I stuck with the 3/3.

BADNBLK

iTrader: (11)

Honestly I'm unsure what the initial internal valving settings are... I bought them used a couple years back, and have not needed to rebuild them. Or maybe I have no clue what settings your talking about lol, and have been doing it wrong?

Explain more... 4/4 4/3 3/3

UMI Sales

Koni's for 4th Gen rear are adjustable on car while Koni's originally intended for 3rd Gen rear must be removed.

http://www.koni-na.com/adjustment.cfm

Since 3rd and 4th Gen have the same rear suspension (in general) you can use either 3 or 4 for the rear.

So, 4/4 is 4th Gen each end (obviously no strut on 4th Gen so not usable for the fronts)
4/3 is 4th Gen front and 3rd Gen rear. Saves $ but takes more time to adjust.
3/4 is a 3rd Gen front on that generation car with a 4th Gen rear shock.
3/3 is all 3rd Gen

These numbers are different than how many "clicks" you're running.

For that info, I'll digress to the Koni enthusiasts on this board. We're currently not running any here at the shop. No particular reason, just right now we're not...

ramey

BADNBLK

iTrader: (11)

HAHA!!! I actually feel dumb now for asking about the 4/4 3/4 numbers lol! Makes perfect sense.

Yeah my main complaint has been with the removal aspect of the adjustment of my exsisting 3rd gen rears. Car is full interior, and I really hate having to remove them to adjust. So this pretty much answers my questions.

Thanks guys... I'm gonna move to a 3/4

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Ramey answered what I was going to post.

My question to BadnBlk is what click setting do you run your rears at? You mention that you're changing them quite frequently. I run my rear shocks on the 0 click setting all the time. I was just wondering what you're running the backs at.

BADNBLK

iTrader: (11)

Reid I have been running mine at the Zero setting as well, for the last year or so. I'm not adjusting them often, but the main reason to that is that I don't wanna take them out to do so.

Maybe I'm getting lazy, or just have less "car" time now haha!

KiLLJ0Y

iTrader: (1)

I have rears set at 2 clicks up from full soft and the fronts 4 clicks up from full soft

Roostmeyer

iTrader: (3)

3 clicks with 250lb/in springs here.

X77trinity77x

SirReveller

iTrader: (4)

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

OP has learned a thing or two since this thread was created. He has JRi's I would think that DSE has optimized the spring rate and damper profile in unison for optimum vehicle performance - most will offer mix and match off-the-shelf parts to sell ya.

I'll help "fill-in" the glossing over:

GRIP is KING! A fast suspension needs to have some compliance, otherwise grip is reduced. This means it also needs to be somewhat comfortable for the driver to have confidence. Thus, ultimate grip is tied to having a degree of compliance (comfort). Therefore, handling and comfort MUST co-exist!
The goal is to control the contact patch of the tires to keep the vehicle on the road, and generate maximum grip.If you concentrate on making the tire-to-ground interface as efficient as possible, you will maximize the available grip. With more grip comes more confidence and usually more ride comfort.
Damping means producing a force to return a system back to rest. All dampers or shocks are velocity-sensitive devices, in that they only generate force when there is motion. Springs are displacement-sensitive devices; they generate a force anytime there is load on the suspension and that load varies with the amount of spring compression. So the springs and dampers (part of the suspension) respond to the vehicle’s mass to control the motion. A properly damped suspension will aim to bring the chassis back to rest as quickly as possible without amplifying the input motion (being too stiff) or allowing excessive oscillations (too soft). Stiff and soft are relative to the user which is why customization of spring rates AND damper profile is crucial to obtaining the proper vehicle performance, whether a pure track car, commuter vehicle or anything in between.
For handling, you want a low-speed damping adjustment and a shock that responds immediately to chassis movement (the better, the more expensive). A twin tube (Koni/KYB/Tokico/Tein/GAZ) will always lag behind a monotube (Bilstein, Penske) due to less displaced volume.
For overall vehicle control, mid and high-speed damping is crucial. This is where monotubes shine. They don’t generate the high internal pressures that twin tubes have to for the same force. Monotubes dissipate heat better and stay more consistent mile after mile than twin tubes.A suspension that does not keep the tires in constant contact with the ground is not going to be comfortable OR fast! Vehicles like Porsche and BMW come with more gentle low-speed curves and more comfortable and better handling because of it.
Compression:
In a street vehicle you want relatively soft compression. . .you need adequate movement of the suspension to provide ride quality (so it absorbs the bumps as you go over them as opposed to transferring that energy into your seat); so you basically want the spring to handle the suspension when it compresses (bump). You can increase the compression damping of the shock, but the outcome will typically be a harsher ride as you are inducing more force into compressing the spring – like having a very high spring rate. High compression forces cause poor ride quality.
More compression force will help ride quality in an under-sprung car (maybe keeping the suspension from bottoming out), but will hurt ride quality in a properly sprung (or over-sprung) vehicle.

In a more "race oriented" vehicle you are typically traversing a relatively smooth surface, so you don't see much compression due to "bumps"; only compression due to major brake pedal application or major steering wheel rotation.
So compression adjustment becomes a means of slowing down the compression of the suspension.

Rebound:
In a street vehicle you need more rebound in the shock to slow everything down after the suspension has compressed. The shock plays a major role in when the weight is transferred.If the shock has too little rebound, the weight will have transferred to the rear before you hit the apex, and the car will push (understeer) as the front tires are picked up off the pavement (not really picked up, but it gives a better visual).

If the shock has too much rebound it will "hold" the front down too long. In this situation the front will still be "overloaded" as you begin applying throttle and the rear will lose grip (causing oversteer, or just spinning, depending on the position of the car in the turn.)

Now, that does not take into account rear rebound, or compression on any corner. Adjustments to these items will affect the timing.
If you optimize for street ride quality, the suspension has moved quite a bit. You now need to slow down the spring pushing the suspension back toward the ground. If you don’t the suspension will travel past ride height, going into extension, then back to compression, starting the whole deal over again and giving that "bouncy" feeling.

In the previously mentioned "race" vehicle, your rebound adjustment now becomes a means of slowing down the extension of the suspension. . .or like keeping the weight on one end or the other (the longer you have more weight on the front tires, the more grip they have further into the turn).

Timing Device:
You have to remember. . .in any application the shock is simply a timing device.
In a "street" vehicle it slows down the time it takes for the suspension to overcome a bump (thereby stopping the "bounce").
In a "race" vehicle it controls when and how the weight is transferred front-to-rear and side-to-side.

Basically, if you have a car that is primarily street driven with the occasional "track day" you are best off having a monotube, rebound adjustable shock. You don't lose much not having compression adjustment (as you'll just make ride quality worse); you want a monotube as the piston is almost twice the size of a twin tube, so it has better "control" (more surface area makes it more effective); and you can still have great ride quality and a fast car on the weekends.
If your vehicle is primarily a race car. . .who cares about ride quality. . .it's only about going fast (which is made possible by the increased ability to control when a car transfers weight.)

Dampers:The factors that matter most to the ride & handling are:
1. Piston design - defines the valving curves possible
2. Piston seal & friction - self-explanatory
3. Bleed valving - controls the initial shock responsiveness control
4. Valving control – in most cases a stack of special shims that deflect & define the oil flow through the piston
5. Adjustability range - To tune or adjust for very different situations like track & street
6. Rebound & compression bleed over - how much does one adjustment affect the other valving
7. Body & overall shock design – affects how it manages the pressure, control & responsiveness
8. Stiction - pressure required to get the shock to initially respond
9. Internal rod/shaft pressure - affects initial shock responsiveness


Other things matter too, like ...
• Is it rebuildable?
• Is it revalvable?
• Parts availability?
• Tech support?
• Customer service?
• Warranty?
• Return/repair policy?
• And lastly initial purchase price and total cost of operation.

Lonnie P

Another thing to comment on... the shock does not need to be completely removed to adjust.

You can adjust it on the car by removing the lower mount & extending the shock, slide the dust cover down, then push the button & rotate to the next setting. Slide dust cover back into position, then reinstall.

It only takes a few minutes to adjust this way. Jacking up the car is the worst part.

UMI Sales

If you pull up the carpet in the hatch area and expose the shock shaft, do you have the little adjuster blade? That's how you know if they are on/car vs off/car. Or if you can still see the p/n sticker, let us know that as well.

thx