Did plenty of searching, couldn't make out any hierarchy of quality like I could with strut mounts, struts, or subframe connectors.
There's Founder's, UMI, Spohn, and BMR for on car adjustable bars. Founder's is definitely the cheapest, but other than price and vendor loyalty I don't know of any reason to differentiate between one brand over another.
So, are there any differences between the basic on car adjustable rod/ rod bars? Easiest to adjust? Lightest?

Is chrome-moly upgrade worth it?
What are the advantages to the Spohn del-sphere ends over the rod ends?
Anyone go rod/rod and regret it or have any complaints?

 

If this is just street use, founders is the way to go. I ran poly ends and couldn't be happier.

 

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...oly-Combo.html

Leave poly on the chassis side (you'll thank me later- I recommend this for the LCA's also). The Sperical joint ont he axle side allows for axle articulation as it moves about, same with the LCA's again. THe chassis sides of the links do not need lateral swivel so the poly joints work just fine and help damper vibrations.

As for adjustment, you want the adjustment on the axle side. Panhard rods with chssis side rode ends are rediculous to work with because you can not get to the jam nut. The style I linked above is the way to go. People say "you adjust it once and leave it there" which is not always true. I buy performance parts to use the car in a performance arena as well as street driving. When you get mopre experience with that, you quickly learn that track requirements are dsifferent in setup than street requirements. It is typical to have to drop the panhard rod on setting on the axle side (i.e- Jegs panhard adjuter relocation bracket) to tighten a car when tre heat develops as in such venues like Autox. THis quick drop in the bar requires also a quick adjustment in length sometimes based on the car and ride height etc. Having the adjstment like above will aid in quick changes to the roll axis.

 

I was going to recommend the same type of rod - put on a Global West one just like it a few weeks ago, works perfectly on a street car.

 

Thanks! I see that the del-sphere end is supposed to be superior to the standard rod-end due to shock absorption through the delrin and serviceability, but are there other advantages as well? Also, being that it is half- unsprung weight, would the $30 chrome-moly upgrade save all that much weight to be worth it and would it compromise any strength?

 

Don't know about cromemoly, I bought steel poly/delsphere combo from spohn and love it (also have the same version LCA's as well). They adjust very well, look great, and make no noticeable noise (also do NOT bind and make the rear end slide around like my all poly tubular non adjustable ones I had before)

 

Founders is just as good and 1/4 the price.

 

if you want free lateral movement you need a spherical type joint on either siode, not on one side. IT's all a big trapezoid, if 1 side is mounted semi stiff the articulation capabilities of the other side will be limited buy the flexing of the semi stuff joint on the chassis. The best solution IMO is a johnny joint or roto joint on both ends, Same is true for both the panhard and the LCAs. I recommend this type

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...ot-Joints.html

 

I drive it on the street and it works just fine for me with one side poly one side spherical

 

Didn't say it won't work but if you want to get rid of the bending stresses induced by a semi rigid bushing then adding a spherical joint on one side is useless IMO.

 

Try to tighten the hell out of the poly end into the chassis and just let the other side hang.

Then grab the other end of the long panhard rod and move it about. You'll be quite surprised how much it will move about even with the poly end overtightened into the chassis.

I stand by my recommendation.

 

I went with Founders with rod ends and have been very happy. I think that the only difference between companies that we would notice would be in the price.

 

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=356005

Mild steel vs Chrome moly weight

CM 1 5/8"od x .083 wall - 1.360 #/ft.
DOM 1 5/8"od x .065 wall - 1.083 #/ft. (cannot be used for roll cage)
DOM 1 5/8"od x .120 wall - 1.929 #/ft.
DOM 1 5/8"od x .134 wall - 2.134 #/ft

Looks like you save roughly 0.5 lb per foot of chrome moly. My Spohn lower control arms are 14" of metal bar each. They weigh 10 lbs in mild steel. Had I gotten the chrome moly, I would have saved something like 1.2 lbs total. I haven't measured the panhard bar, but it's probably about the same as 2 lower control arms. Maybe a bit more. So I'd guess about 1.5-2 lbs savings.

I have a theory as to why companies don't list their weights of mild steel and chrome moly products. That being that very few people would spend the extra money for the tiny specified weight savings. But if you simply say "it's lighter in CM," more people will spend the money.

Spohn says his 8 point cages (in chrome moly) save 20 lbs while his 10 point cages (in chrome moly) save 30 lbs. That's a lot more material than our PHB or LCA use.

I still drive around with my spare tire, rear floor mats, back seat, A/C, etc....So spending the extra money on chrome moly wasn't worth it to me. If I were a hardcore racer, looking to save as much weight as I could, I'd have gone CM.

 

How much time, effort, money have you spent greasing your poly joints???

What about over the course of 20 years?

Delrin requires no grease, no maintenance. It also has much freer articulation than poly. It will also never squeak.

Whether that is worth it to you, is up to you. For many of us, the extra cost is easily worth it.

The delrin lined ends like the del-sphere is for the guy who cares about:

- excellent performance, articulation
- NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness)
- maintainability
- rebuildability

Poly is for someone who:

- wants the cheapest possible part (there are no other advantages)

 

The lightest may be the aluminum one you put together yourself with parts from Coleman racing.
Unfortunately I didn't take a picture comparing the weights of the stock bar to the aluminum version but if I recall, it was just over a 3 lb difference.

Here's a pic comparing my aluminum LCA to a stock lca that is partially boxed:

 

I think you might have misunderstood me, I have rod ends aka heim joints, not poly joints. I said nothing about poly.

 

 

Perhaps so. However the argument still holds up. How long do you expect those rod ends to hold up?

For the price Founders is charging, I could buy 1 NHBB rod end. Obviously they aren't using NHBB's.

Their LCAs with rod ends are $120. That is for:

4 rod ends
8 spacers
2 main tubes
powder coat
labor (claim Made in USA)
- taking orders
- answering phone
- welding
- powder
- QC
- shipping
packaging

That is a lot to package for $120. I can't imagine a scenario where their rod ends cost more than $10/ea. You just can't get quality for that price.

 

I'd like to know how the Teflon/ Kevlar rod ends on the Founder's bar hold up and transfer road noise and shock opposed to the Spohn del-spheres and UMI Roto-joints which use adjustable delrin races to line the ends.

I ended up going with the UMI rod through Strano and got the dual delrin jointed one, figured it honestly couldn't hurt the ride or NVH much more than the del-alums and hotpart strut mounts on the front of the car anyway plus I like the adjustability and replace-ability of the delrin liners.

I am enjoying this debate though, lots of good info!

 

For the money, the delrin lined joints will be better in the long run. If you are interested in spending $100/ea on rod ends, they will last a long time as well.

 

Go with Founders.. they make top quality parts.

 

I just love these types of posts. So amusing to hear all this knowledge and details about one simple part...a panhard bar. All these answers, discussions and downright confrontations to answer a question that leaves so much open to interpretation..."the best".......for what?

Daily driver duties? Weekend car? Road racing? Drag racing?.....NASCAR?

You could just replace the rubber bushings on your existing arm that's lasted...how many years? Then we go to poly, then to delrin bushings, then to roto-joints, then to the material used - weaker to strongest, heaviest to lightest..etc..what's in your wallet?...

Dart will now make you a full billet engine block...but it's kinda overkill for a daily driver stock 350....

 

The difference being that the stock 350 will hold up just fine and you'd never know the difference unless you're building an all out sick nasty drag car running at 11/10ths for ten seconds at a time. You can kind of feel suspension components on the street if you push the car a little bit but when you autocross and run the car at 11/10ths (as most do, anyone that hasn't tried it should at least give it a shot once, you'll be amazed at what your car can do and how much you can improve your driving!) small changes make a big difference. And it's not a several thousand dollar decision like a built racing block either, we're talking part of a Mickey D's or Speedy Lube paycheck difference here.

 

That's the bar that I went for. PHB are cheap enough, I see no reason to skip on quality just to go with a cheaper one.

Amen.

 

I never knew how much of a difference there could be in rod ends. I'll stand by my purchase though. In the last 3 warm weather seasons I haven't even put 2,000 miles on the car so extended use isn't an issue. I really wasn't satisfied with how my old poly joints (depending on their location) delivered five years or less of life before I could see cracks in poly. I am a casual autocross participant so I wanted something else but at the same time I don't need one that would handle an extreme amount of abuse. If in a year or two something breaks with my Founders pieces I would go with another company. Last season I had no issues with them, knock on wood.

 

I'm going to throw this topic in a bit of a different direction. That being that I don't think poly is going to be the miracle cure of great performance with comfortable ride that people say it is. The only poly I've had in my car was the transmission mount. And I didn't like it.

From everything I've read, going to poly vs rod ends in the PHB (or LCA), the ride is going to be the same under most conditions. Both will be firmer than rubber. Both will ride the same going down the road. And that it's only under the following conditions that rod ends suck:
a) Well worn out rod ends, cheap ones accelerating this
b) Road construction, major potholes, train tracks. Severe type stuff.

If anything, the lack of bind in a rod end setup should suggest that more of the impact is taken up in the springs and shocks rather than binding up in the mounting bushings. So if you're on good roads, a rod end setup should actually ride better than poly. Del-sphere or Roto-joints riding even better still.

 

First off- let me address the lightest pssible product is NOT aluminum. Chromoly is lighter and stronger (IE Spohns units compared to Coleman units) Do your research

Secondly, Dual rod ends ride very noisy. The LCA's will still pick up and transmit noise and vibration from the axle to the chassis. Poly mounts on the chassis side are beautiful- they are terrible on the axle side due to lack of articulation- if you do not understand this? then build a model and articluate it about under the chassis and see how the rear links need more artculation and the fronts require hardly any in comparison.

thirdly, Rodends are lightweight, but can wear out VERY quickly unless alot of money is spent on very high dollar units (Look at my attachment- trust me I have put them through their paces)- I have wiped out many in just weeks sometimes. You get what you pay for and the better qualitry units are larger bodied and thus heavier. At this point, if you want prolonged reliability for daily use? then the slightly heavier DelSpere joints are by all means the "Best" way to go. Again though- cost wise AND usefulness, the chassis side mount can be POLY- Its perfectly great and cost effective- the same goes for the panhards.

If I were building an all out racecar that barely would see any street use? I would go CM arms with high end rodends- otherwise, I had poly/rodends on my car for many many years with no noise ever from the poly and I used aprox $100 each rodends on the axle sides of the attanchments. had I done it today? I would go the Spohn Delphere units on the axles sides (they were not availiable when I did mine years ago. They are a little heavier, but to me they are less expensive and a better damper while still retaining all equivilance to rodend articulation.

The best rodends out there are QA1 HMR12HT at about $50 each. I used to run HMR12HCPT which are discontinued and where about $90 each at the time

What made my car transmit alot of noise was the same massive rodened I used on the Tqarm. This transmit rearend gear noise and vibration into the cockpit. Poly or Delspere here would have been much better choice

 

Strength is not a concern. The yield strength of the aluminum pieces is far beyond what you would ever see in car. I have actually done the calcs for yield, thread shear, and fatigue. They are plenty strong.

There is more to material properties than just strength, and then, you are just talking about materials not construction methods.

A material with vastly superior strength properties to another material can be used to produce a weaker and more flexible part.

There are very good reasons why virtually every OEM now uses aluminum for suspension components and not ChroMoly, why modern aircraft are made of Aluminum not ChroMo, and why professional racing bicycles went from ChroMo to Aluminum (and then later CF).

The spohn website states that their LCAs made from chromoly have the same specs as their mild steel LCAs. That means they would weigh exactly the same as the mild steel LCAs only that the tubing is now stronger. Chromoly parts can be made lighter than mild steel only because you can use thinner wall tubing, they are not inherently lighter. They are also not stiffer either, youngs modulus is the same. If you built the part with thinner walled tubing for the chromoly, you'd have a lighter part that can be as strong, but it will be less stiff.
If Spohn's Chromoly LCA is lighter than the aluminum coleman piece, it's only because the mild steel piece is lighter. He has not published any weight data, so it's impossible to know based upon his website info.

The above ignores the potential for human error/ stress risers in the welding process - especially when welding chromoly which will be more prone to cracking near the welds. The aluminum parts have no welds.

 

Dean, do you feel that a poly/delsphere combo is leaving anything on the table compared an all delsphere setup?

Since you say that the chassis side doesn't see much if anything in the way of rotation and/or binding, would you say that the best possible combination would be a rubber bushing on the chassis and a delsphere on the axle? This would seem to cause no squeeking, no lubing, long life, minimal vibration while still retaining the performance of the delsphere on the axle.

 

I would go for the del-sphere on both sides to eliminate any problem areas. Some people can get away with the poly forever and never have any noise. But why take the chance when a better solution exists today. As Dean points out, a poly end perhaps made more sense when using a $100 rod end like the NHBB's and others. Less ends, less cost.

 

Why can't you two just accept the fact that you have both set up two of the best handling third gens on the site?


Somehow informative threads always either end up in an argument between the guys who actually know things or muddled up with speculative or non technical opinion-based misinformation from the guys who don't.

 

I have been told by road race enthusiasts, that even a rod/rod combo is not that bad on the phb. I would/will do Roto Roto on mine. I would also stay away from on car adjustable anything. They all LOOK like a week design that allows bending at adjustment point, but I also have no.proof on this

 

I was under the impression that almost all, if not all, rod end PHBs were on car adjustable.

 

I think he really means the bizarre ones that have the adjuster in the middle. Bad design. None of the bars worth having (rod/rod), (delsphere/delsphere) have that "feature".

 

What he said.

 

I don;t know where alot of you get your heresay info from but the left side adjuster units are the way to go. They are niot weak and do not "bend at the adjustment point" whatever that means.

Anyone ever try to loosen a jamnut on a double rodend PHB on the chassis side? didn;t think so- its virtually impossible to get to and a real pain in the ****. The left side double adjument feature is hands down the best way to go if you have any experience with these cars.

 

You heard wrong. Good luck trying to get to the jamnut on the chassis side.

 

if you mean like the edelbrock one, ik took one of those off because it's junk. Even with the jam nuts tightened down real tight, just grabbing the aluminum adjuster sleeve will let you bend the thing noticably. I will never use one again, having the short sleeve and as so the threads that close together sure doesn't help either. The one I replaced it with had jam nuts on either end and it's a lot sturdier.

You can call it hearsay but I checked and tested it myself. If I can grab the part and physically deflect it with little error (car on lft) then IMO it's no good. There will always be slack on the threads no matter how much you tighten those jamb nuts. Having a very short adjuster sleeve on a very long bar makes it a lot worse.

Getting to the jam nut is not a problem at all, the rod is tapered down and you can get a wrench on the nut at an angle.

 

I am sure Edlebrock is crap- that doesn't surprise me. I have personal issues witht hat company and will never buy any crap from them ever again. I used to post in my signature "EdelCrock, it ain't your fathers Edlebrock anymore"

As for the jam nut on the chassis side? Sure when you jack the car up high enough, but when you are at the track making adjustment settings and want to quickly lower a panhard settting to tighten a loose car, you are going to be in a would of hurt. I have had this issue on several of the local guys cars and I will say again with alot of first hand experience it is a real pain in the ****.

That Spohn style left hand adjustment setup is beautiful to use.
I have the guys I help keep notes or memorize their individual settings so when I need to drop a bar on their setup they can tell me which needs a little length or shorten based on individual car tolerances. Stuff I can not remeber for everyone. But its a simple thing like on Vals car where I know he needs to drop one notch when it gets hot and I rotate his one turn inward and rebolt the bar back to the lower hole.

 

I don´t use edelbrock stuff either, apart from 1 STB because it happens to fit out of the box. I like their e force lsx setup a lot but if I owned one I would mill edelbrock off it so it doesn´t show.

I can tighten the jam nut on the chassis side when lying under the car, you have to aim the wrench in sideways but it can be done. I agree though that it would be better if it was better accessible.

 

I want to also add that you don't want to have to pull the axle side of the PHB out of the bracket as you lower it. Just a little prybar to pull it down one hole, and a rbbuer mallet to bump it back up one hole- yet with the bushing still inside the Jegs bracket it can be lengthened or shortened without pulling it out and having to reassemble it- that can be a real pain in a tight squeeze up under there when youa re in a hurry getting the car ready for the next run.

Best to pop the adjuster nuts loose first, then remove the axle side mount bolt and pry it down to the next hole, give the adjuster the proper needed turn (that should be precalculated at home when not in a panic- thus you know the PHB length for each hole setting so the axle stays centered- the lucky guys have good tolerances where the bar length does not need changing, however if it does then)- once the bar is to length and it might not be lined up, have someone else lightly tug the fenderwheel the way you need it as you insert the bolt back into the next position. Tighten the mount bolt- then tightent he adjuster jam nuts - and get his *** back out there- all while only having to wrench on the left side under there on your back.

Im real good at sabotaging the other teams on practice days with my two big wrenches...lol

 

Yup, no problem here loosening the passenger side jam nut. Certainly the center adjuster would be easier but I don't like that design for stiffness.

 

I puzzles me when you guys say this. Why? becasue when those threads are inserted and the jam nuts are tight, there is no movement in compression and tension. You are not accepting lateral loads on that bar- so whats the difference on having threads on the extremities, or in the center?

 

You need the most stiffness in the center of the span to resist buckling and flex. You lose some of the stiffness by placing the adjuster in the middle (or closer to the middle) of the span. Obviously its not a huge deal, as many successfully use this design. I just don't happen to think its an elegant solution. Your requirements may be different and for you that design may be more desirable. I get that.

 

I understand what you are saying, but the bar I am talking about has all of this within 5" on one side on a 40" span, not in the center. Plus it is hardened steel fittings, not aluminum.
http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...oly-Combo.html
I would completely agree your point on something like this-
http://www.jegs.com/i/BMR-Fabricatio...ductId=1354648

 

That's one reason I don't recommend bmr. I believe that in my post I said in theory it's not ideal. If I didn't say that I'll make sure to edit to to where I did.

These "flexes" may be minor, but I don't plan on buying one. IMHO if a bar is set correct on an average car that doesn't need tuning every run. For most of us I would say just take it off to adjust if off if you had to. Now this is all on theory of course

 

Since I abhor babysitting threads....

JamesC